Compiled SAM threads against 6.1 changes / Kaiten removal

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Can I join please?
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...tead-of-Kaiten

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I made sure to add you, there's a 3000 character limit per post and every quote and link will add to the message limit of 3000... during the copy pasting process I think i missed a few threads cause I kept hitting that limit per post XD , I'll try to be more punctual mhm.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

I made sure to add you, there's a 3000 character limit per post and every quote and link will add to the message limit of 3000... during the copy pasting process I think i missed a few threads cause I kept hitting that limit per post XD , I'll try to be more punctual mhm.

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Editing allows you to go past the 3k character limit. Yes it's weird. Been around ever since the forums first started (although it was 2k for the longest time iirc).

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Originally Posted by Quor

Editing allows you to go past the 3k character limit. Yes it's weird. Been around ever since the forums first started (although it was 2k for the longest time iirc).

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This is the most helpful forum post on forum posting I have read. I have condensed some of my posts now with your advice, and I can add every new voice to the original posts it's actually like... thank you, so much. Really helpful. And I can see as I writing this another new Samurai posted their first thread and it's about 6.1 changes... the pattern continues q---q;

Just search "Samurai 6.1" on YouTube.

Literally. NO ONE likes these changes. PERIOD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbOzSc8_I0I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wiw6NG25I_s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIHj-1_Yn1U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGLikZOx2Kk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buFPkW6Nf5s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oub34tXOpgU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALcN-cum8GY

SE. Can you stop doubling down your fuck up. Just revert it.

Hi Samurai friends, especially CelestiCer, thank you all for compiling feedback for SE. Could I please request my thread be added onto the list as I view this to be a pseudo petition of sorts.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...l-enthusiastic

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Originally Posted by Arycelle_Dania

Hi Samurai friends, especially CelestiCer, thank you all for compiling feedback for SE. Could I please request my thread be added onto the list as I view this to be a pseudo petition of sorts.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...l-enthusiastic

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Hai hai. I been testing and reclearing some of the raids again with friends... uhm yeah I can't find any satisfaction in just doing them. Though I tried to do community service helping others clear their raids and extreme's and I hear the same notion of other Samurai's from their statics and their FC Discords complaining about the same negative changes from 6.1.

I'll try to add the following threads if I indeed missed them, the amount of new threads coming is not surprising? but they just keep coming... it's bitter sweet to see it.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...entity-is-gone.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-6.2-Endwalker
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ng-Back-Kaiten
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...l-enthusiastic

PS: Yay it's becoming quite a lot, I would not mind reminders or requests to have threads added at this point e.e;

I had no idea. If that's the case please trouble yourself no further, you have done more than enough we appreciate your efforts. I feel what is already in here and on the top level DPS section is more than sufficient enough for the purpose of feedback towards SE. Honestly at this point I would be very surprised if they don't hear our voice seeing as this reaction is not unique to EN forum, other parts are quite vocal as well.

Thank you for making this thread. Now here's hoping that 1) SE listens. 2) People stop posting useless crap like "I'd rather be having fun than posting on the forums".

Good compilation, I'm in it! :D

thank you for the effort put in this post.

Hi Celesti,

can i be added too?

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...97#post5921297

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Originally Posted by Liohna

Hi Celesti,

can i be added too?

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...97#post5921297

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Hai Lionhna, I just woke up xD and I read your post. I will make sure you're added mhm. Lets hope our voice together will be heard

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Hai Lionhna, I just woke up xD and I read your post. I will make sure you're added mhm. Lets hope our voice together will be heard

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Thanks for that and the efforts you put on this post :D

Let's pray to be heard

Good to see many posts about the change. Also thanks for compiling all of them together Celesti.

I'm late to the party (only play pretty casually for MSQ and occasional group content) but I was so very sad and disappointed when I logged in after the patch and discovered they made my main job feel less fun and awkward to play.

To echo what everyone else has said: Hissatsu: Kaiten is a fun button to press. You twirl your sword around and power up for a big attack. It's awesome. And it even feels a bit skillful to use because you have to use it at the right time and make sure you're going to have enough kenki to press it when you need it.

There's not as much uproar about the change to Tenka Goken, but I really hope this change is reverted as well. I loved using the frontal cone attack.

The 360 degree version:

a) feels bad to use for some reason -- probably because the shorter range but same "shockwave" animation plays when the cast completes, but because the travel distance is so reduced, you barely see the shockwaves.
b) now has a clipped/awkward animation that contributes more to the move feeling unsatisfying.

The developers overall on this game are great, but these changes are surely a mistake. I have no idea how these abilities and their removal/alteration impact the game balance, and I don't care. You could nerf either or both moves to be less effective for all I care, but why make both the single target and multi-target rotations less fun to do? I'm humbly begging the devs to change their minds on this. Since I discovered these changes, I've had little interest in playing the game. I'm trying some other jobs but I don't see myself sticking with them very long.

(re: Tenka Goken)

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Originally Posted by beatts

The 360 degree version:

a) feels bad to use for some reason -- probably because the shorter range but same "shockwave" animation plays when the cast completes, but because the travel distance is so reduced, you barely see the shockwaves.
b) now has a clipped/awkward animation that contributes more to the move feeling unsatisfying.

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What you say is true, but I think there's even more to it:
- Making Tenka Goken circular, combined with Fuko now making our AOE combo starter circular, means our entire AOE rotation is now circular - we no longer need to reposition for various attacks at all, which makes the entire AOE rotation less engaging, Tenka Goken included.
- Without having to reposition for Tenka Goken, we lost a facet of anticipation preceding it.
- Without having Kaiten to use before Tenka Goken, we lost a facet of anticipation preceding it.
- Without Kaiten, Tenka Goken's effective potency is massively diminished, destroying the anticipation by destroying the payoff.
- With the massive nerf to Kaeshi: Goken's potency, the anticipation for Tenka Goken's Tsubame-gaeshi is destroyed by destroying the payoff. (reduced from 420 to 280.)

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

(re: Tenka Goken)


What you say is true, but I think there's even more to it:
- Making Tenka Goken circular, combined with Fuko now making our AOE combo starter circular, means our entire AOE rotation is now circular - we no longer need to reposition for various attacks at all, which makes the entire AOE rotation less engaging, Tenka Goken included.
- Without having to reposition for Tenka Goken, we lost a facet of anticipation preceding it.
- Without having Kaiten to use before Tenka Goken, we lost a facet of anticipation preceding it.
- Without Kaiten, Tenka Goken's effective potency is massively diminished, destroying the anticipation by destroying the payoff.
- With the massive nerf to Kaeshi: Goken's potency, the anticipation for Tenka Goken's Tsubame-gaeshi is destroyed by destroying the payoff. (reduced from 420 to 280.)

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Yes, this is all very well said and I agree 100%. I had thoughts along these lines as well when I first tested SAM after the patch, but didn't think of posting in the forums until now and I'd forgotten some of these details.

But this is such an important point. It's not just that the new version feels bad in and of itself, but that it's so much less interesting compared to what we had before. Just as you say, the dynamic of side-stepping the fray while powering up with kaiten, and then once in position unleashing the shockwave...it was fun. It looked cool, it felt cool. The new tenka goken is a button I press in my rotation (sometimes twice when tsubame-gaeshi is up,) and just have faith that some damage occurs. If I didn't know how MMO ability rotations worked and didn't have access to damage numbers or tooltips, I'd probably ignore it entirely in my AOE rotation because the basic attacks feel more impactful.

How long does the list of threads need to get before SE issues some kind of response? The radio silence on this issue is absolutely deafening. I'm not saying we need this turned around in a matter of days, but some kind of acknowledgement on their part wouldn't take anywhere near as much time and effort to put together as an actual patch.

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Originally Posted by Theodric_Thorne

How long does the list of threads need to get before SE issues some kind of response? The radio silence on this issue is absolutely deafening. I'm not saying we need this turned around in a matter of days, but some kind of acknowledgement on their part wouldn't take anywhere near as much time and effort to put together as an actual patch.

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No clue, but a response is really all i want from them in the immediate to near (read:1 month) future to address this in some way shape or form. I don't want to make a witch hunt like their patch notes stream seemed to be going for by demanding whoever responsible to come forward. I want an answer to why this was done (an actual answer, not what we got in that stream).

Trying to play the only thing I leveled to cap when I don't log on nearly as much as I used to is just frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Theodric_Thorne

How long does the list of threads need to get before SE issues some kind of response? The radio silence on this issue is absolutely deafening. I'm not saying we need this turned around in a matter of days, but some kind of acknowledgement on their part wouldn't take anywhere near as much time and effort to put together as an actual patch.

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" Patience is a virtue ", and ours are being sorely tested... With housing lottery? PvP hacks? Content release? With so many other things, Job Feedback is probably put at the bottom of their priority list. Sucks, but I am going to guess that's the case.

On a sidenote, I am going to attempt overtime to reorder the threads listed " Chronologically " from Pre-6.1 to Post-6.1. Genuinely curious how many voices Square ignored when it comes to not implementing the changes like Kaiten Removal even before the update hit.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Job Feedback is probably put at the bottom of their priority list.

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I certainly hope that isn't the case - jobs are how we interact with the content - the quality of the content hardly matters if our vessel for interacting with it isn't enjoyable.

Posting until we know what the devs are going to do with Samurai. Current state is unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

(re: Tenka Goken)


What you say is true, but I think there's even more to it:
- Making Tenka Goken circular, combined with Fuko now making our AOE combo starter circular, means our entire AOE rotation is now circular - we no longer need to reposition for various attacks at all, which makes the entire AOE rotation less engaging, Tenka Goken included.
- Without having to reposition for Tenka Goken, we lost a facet of anticipation preceding it.
- Without having Kaiten to use before Tenka Goken, we lost a facet of anticipation preceding it.
- Without Kaiten, Tenka Goken's effective potency is massively diminished, destroying the anticipation by destroying the payoff.
- With the massive nerf to Kaeshi: Goken's potency, the anticipation for Tenka Goken's Tsubame-gaeshi is destroyed by destroying the payoff. (reduced from 420 to 280.)

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100%

This might be a slightly exaggerated situation, but after the changes to Kaiten and Tenka Goken, I have effectively gone from being engaged while I play SAM, paying attention to important factors like resources, placement/position and GCDs...

To essentially glancing at the screen at times to make sure I am in range of an enemy, mash some buttons in a similar rotation, while I watch Futurama to relieve the fact that I am bored out of my mind playing a class that just a little while ago was a main, primary reason I played FFXIV in the first due to how engaging and enjoyable it was.

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Originally Posted by FrogBiscuit

I am bored out of my mind playing a class that just a little while ago was a main, primary reason I played FFXIV in the first due to how engaging and enjoyable it was.

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100%

Samurai was the only dps that I really adored, but now it feels so hollow that I've stopped playing it completely.

I'm trying to main dancer as a replacement, but I find myself uninspired to play as dps at all, which is/was my favorite role, and because of that, my overall motivation to engage in PVE content as a whole is greatly diminished.

With my lack of inspiration to do PVE content, I've been doing a lot more PVP. Last night I tried out monk for the first time in Crystalline Conflict.

Have you tried monk in Crystalline Conflict? It's a blast, but I bring it up because it turns out that PVP monk has an OGCD that buffs your next weaponskill by 50%. Sounds like something that PVE samurai might enjoy.

Admittedly I have not yet.

I have largely still been playing SAM in Crystalline Conflict as I still feel the theme of SAM there, funny enough. Yes PvP is largely different, but the excitement of hitting like a semi-truck still exists there. It has been a small placebo for the whole debacle and not really using my SAM for PvE much since.

That said, I had a friend suggesting I try either drg or mnk in PvP and its on my list.

It is amusing (in the ironic sense) that MNK effectively inherited some of the SAM theme in that way.

I have added the recent SAM threads. This takes a lot more effort then I thought. Though I do like to have reminders incase I did forget a thread feedback who don't like the recent changes or are able to give alternative solutions to whatever these patch updates for SAM's have been. And I'll try to keep updating it asap.

As for my personal take on 6.11? they addressed I guess performance numbers. It still did not fix our gameplay. They robbed how enjoyable Samurai was to play and in it's place gave us some potency swaps. So probably performance-wise? Samurai's are " oke " to play, Crit Comps idk much about that though I am assuming that's still in shambles? but the enjoyment to play Samurai was stolen... to fix... absolutely nothing.

So a few potency increases 6.11? I see that as a bone to throw to players, it doesn't do anything but now they can't be told they didn't give SAM's anything. Even if its not what our feedback implied.

They essentially doubled down.

This is just a straight up L in every sense of the term.

Thank you Celesti. However, the thread I posted was in regards to 6.11. Other than that minor discrepany, you are doing good work by making this compilation thread.
At least with these changes I'll have more time to play the Chrono Cross remaster until SE understands what we really want.

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Originally Posted by ShanaShirayuki

Thank you Celesti. However, the thread I posted was in regards to 6.11. Other than that minor discrepany, you are doing good work by making this compilation thread.
At least with these changes I'll have more time to play the Chrono Cross remaster until SE understands what we really want.

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Yay I was thinking making parts, so the threads posted like after a patch hit vs before a patch hit but idk how to order them properly, I can put your thread though along with 6.11. I seriously need more free time to get this done, I will get to it D:< i promise it will be done before Kaiten is returned... to us... at some point... Dx at some point!!

Thank you for compiling everything.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

I have added the recent SAM threads. This takes a lot more effort then I thought. Though I do like to have reminders incase I did forget a thread feedback who don't like the recent changes or are able to give alternative solutions to whatever these patch updates for SAM's have been. And I'll try to keep updating it asap.

As for my personal take on 6.11? they addressed I guess performance numbers. It still did not fix our gameplay. They robbed how enjoyable Samurai was to play and in it's place gave us some potency swaps. So probably performance-wise? Samurai's are " oke " to play, Crit Comps idk much about that though I am assuming that's still in shambles? but the enjoyment to play Samurai was stolen... to fix... absolutely nothing.

So a few potency increases 6.11? I see that as a bone to throw to players, it doesn't do anything but now they can't be told they didn't give SAM's anything. Even if its not what our feedback implied.

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more we need to be realist, we will not see important change before the 6.2....
they will try to let the patch run for a month for get enough data before decide anything.
the change of the potency of midare was... erm ok, i guess, but far to be enough.
plus they didn't adress the trouble of tenka goken fact that the damage was nerfed to to the floor since it don't auto crit and the damage was reduce without kaiten.
or the fact that the damage orientation was switch from iajutsu to combo what make little to no sense.
the removal of kaiten was maybe with good intention, but since we don't know them plan it's feel weird. especially when the damage was moved around and make the sam feel unrewarding.

all we can do is wait until they decide to come out and explain us why they did make this choice and what they plan to do for adress the community feeling.

Great thread, thank you for compiling so much feedback. Hope we get some response soon.

Reminder that the tooltip for Tsubame-gaeshi states: "Repeats the previously executed iaijutsu with increased potency." Which is simply not true as Midare Setsugekka and Kaeshi: Setsugekka do the exact same potency. This also applies to the other iajitsu as well.

Midare Setsugekka (640 Potency) -> Kaeshi: Setsugekka (640 Potency)
Tenka Goken (280 Potency) -> Kaeshi: Goken (280 Potency)
Higanbana (200 Potency) -> Kaeshi: Higanbana (200 Potency)

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Originally Posted by VincentH

Reminder that the tooltip for Tsubame-gaeshi states: "Repeats the previously executed iaijutsu with increased potency." Which is simply not true as Midare Setsugekka and Kaeshi: Setsugekka do the exact same potency. This also applies to the other iajitsu as well.

Midare Setsugekka (640 Potency) -> Kaeshi: Setsugekka (640 Potency)
Tenka Goken (280 Potency) -> Kaeshi: Goken (280 Potency)
Higanbana (200 Potency) -> Kaeshi: Higanbana (200 Potency)

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Further evidence - to me anyway - that this was a last-minute, tacked-on change. A Sledgehammer for a fly if you will. They thought about reducing potencies but never went so far as to check to ensure the tooltips are accurate.

Does the tooltip in other versions of the game still say the same thing? JP? German? French? If so then that's indicative of a larger issue internally. What that issue is I couldn't say for sure; perhaps it was "merely" a communication error, but with this many fuck-ups packed into a single patch it's beginning to look like there's trouble in paradise as it were.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Further evidence - to me anyway - that this was a last-minute, tacked-on change. A Sledgehammer for a fly if you will. They thought about reducing potencies but never went so far as to check to ensure the tooltips are accurate.

Does the tooltip in other versions of the game still say the same thing? JP? German? French? If so then that's indicative of a larger issue internally. What that issue is I couldn't say for sure; perhaps it was "merely" a communication error, but with this many fuck-ups packed into a single patch it's beginning to look like there's trouble in paradise as it were.

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It's the same in french, in-game and on the official PvE jobs guide.

A little something more, in french they didn't even bother to modify the potency of shinten in the tooltip, better they even updated it for 6.11 in the PvE guide and.... it's still 270 instead of the 250.

This is some comedy material tbh

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Originally Posted by RHarris1349

I’m here to say for a fourth time,

WHAT HAPPENED!? WHAT DID YOU DO TO SAMURAI JOB!?

NOT FAVORABLE.

Extra bonus: Why was Kaeshi: Higanbana not deleted if this “action bloat issue” is such a big problem? Better show you’re fallible human being, Squenix. It might garner your division some support (and revenue) to be humble and admit a mistake.

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SE stopped caring about their players and their games years ago. Yoshi-P and his team are the only ray of hope left and even that is beginning to dim with the recent changes...

Firstly, gathering all these threads together is quite a bit of work.
So I'm grateful for your efforts.



Secondly, even though I haven't gotten to try these changes myself...

Samurai is the class I spent the most effort learning.
And from the criticism seen here, I can understand the impact being discussed.

I have to agree, many of these changes seem bad for the class.

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

I haven't gotten to try these changes myself...

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If you do decide to try them out yourself, please consider following up with your thoughts.

I knew I'd hate these changes as soon as I saw them on paper, but once I tried them out in game I was shocked at how much worse they were than I ever imagined.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

If you do decide to try them out yourself, please consider following up with your thoughts.

I knew I'd hate these changes as soon as I saw them on paper, but once I tried them out in game I was shocked at how much worse they were than I ever imagined.

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They're especially worse since there's at least 3 things they could have done INSTEAD OF removing Kaiten, nvm the Tenka Goken issue.

Merge Shoha 1 & 2, give it the Spirits Within is upgraded into Expiacion like they did with Paladin at the start of EW. An easy solution that already exists.

Have ikishoten turn into Ogi Namikiri upon execution, like High Jump into Mirage Dive introduced THIS PATCH, or the Gnashing Fang combo introduced at the start of EW. Another easy solution that ALREADY EXISTS.

Lots of people jump right onto merging Hissatu: Guren / Senei which is good, but....
https://i.imgur.com/wFsE734.jpeg
Is just a better solution (removes 2 buttons instead of 1, while we retain both abilities as well) since Warrior has done exactly this with Fell Cleave into Inner Chaos (the equivalent 1 target spender of shinten / senei) / Decimate into Chaotic Cyclone (another equivalent 3+= target spender that can be compared to kyuten / guren) while under the effects of Nascent Chaos, a buff granted along many other things when using Inner Release. They even have their own fucking Ogi Namikiri tied to the CD, PRIMAL REND.
SE just gave us Inner Release but somehow WORSE since we have the Ogi Namikiri being tied to Ikishoten (Like Primal Rend needing to be tied to Inner Release you see what I mean?) but miss out on saving two buttons as Guren and Senei insist on being their own CD for literally no reason.
It's been designed to be outdated for two expansions now (as someone who started in SHB I assume Inner Release was a SHB ability) and if they somehow decide to merge Guren and Senei instead I'll be frankly dissapointed since it's such a lazy effort, especially when their fellow job designers already have offered a solution to the same problems.

Oh and this Guren and Senei change would actually reduce the skill floor btw, since it removes the possibility for Guren and Senei to drift as CD's, which is ONLY a skill floor issue, and is not going to affect those at the ceiling since well, reducing drifting is not a skill attained at the ceiling.

Also no Kaiten's removal does not reduce APM, the 5 kenki cost difference is negligible, and our opener is not crowded by any means in comparison to many jobs so the only reason to remove Kaiten is for futureproofing job changes we may not see until 7.0 lol and "button bloat" which I have already solved in much better ways.

It's so frustrating looking at other jobs in the same game and how they fixed issues before they even appeared like holy shit.

And yeah Tenka Goken is a real bite in the ass since they just introduced an option for actions to automatically acquire a target when using said actions, which would have been great for the "problem" of Tenka Goken previously requiring a target as it was a cone AOE.
Now we're stuck running into an intersection being asked to stand in place and hope we don't get run over by everything going on, instead of safely casting from the sidewalk of the cone aoe previously, all for the sake of "smoothing it out" and "not requiring a target" which is apparently good?