Square Enix slowing killing the fun.

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Originally Posted by Fourbestintoner

Don't know what you're talking about, jobs are still very complex and unique.
https://i.imgur.com/00C3i05.gif

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I hate all those so much... those "ups healing, damage, whatever" for 5-10 sec" buffs... like, remove all of em, add the effects to skills and add more combos...

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Originally Posted by maxxvoltage4

unoptimal means longer times in dungeons or fights, which majority of players seem to not have the patience for. You either 'git gud' or they vote kick you or they themselves leave. a no win situation when trying to progress.

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I've been playing since ARR beta and I can say with absolute certainty that I have never, not once, in all these years seen someone get votekicked for playing suboptimal and making the run take a few minutes longer. And I mean suboptimal, not so bad that it's griefing like a tank not putting on stance and ignoring any requests to do so. Or a dps afking until a boss fight and waiting to get ported in, afking after the boss again.
Single pulling tanks, no dps healers, no aoe dps, auto attacking melees. I've seen it all and none of them got kicked. Ever. Mentioning dps in any way is prohibited and is risking a ban. Kicking someone out of nowhere because they are neither griefing, afking, offline or verbally abusing someone is also reportable.

Yes, many people don't like seeing a tank single pull past a certain level because any dps, including 'squishy casters', can tank a single pull so a tank going this slow is nothing but a gimped dps.
Yes, many people don't like seeing a healer that doesn't dps because even in wall to walls you have plenty of downtime and not dpsing means standing around doing nothing while everyone else is pushing buttons. It's even worse in boss fights.
Yes, many people don't like seeing a dps not using aoe because they all get it during ARR and it should be common sense to use them in a big pull.
There is no good excuse to do any of it because if someone has a good reason, they're welcome to communicate. Like "haven't tanked in forever, I'll go slower for now" or "broke my hand, I'll stick to healing".
You don't go into a dungeon and assume everyone is physically and mentally disabled, hasn't slept for 3 nights, hasn't played in months, is old enough to be your grandma and plays on a toaster far away from their physical DC.

You're just taking stories from the TfDF thread and assuming everyone that was mentioned for their poor gameplay got insulted and kicked. People even silently grit their teeth when someone only uses ARR CNJ skills in current Savage.

So... yes, you are absolutely welcome to play suboptimal. The option is there. If it doesn't feel nice and fluffy for you, that's 100% a you problem.
You have the option to play poorly and still clear every normal content so everyone else should also have the option to play well and have a skill ceiling. Forcing everyone to play at a level that is meant for physically disabled people is nothing short of egoistic. Not to mention extremely disrespectful because contrary to what you might think many of them are not fond of people suggesting that everything needs to be brought down to baby level gameplay so they don't feel stressed and pressured. It's insulting.

From the reactions to "Then just set priorities and ignore skill X for now if it's too complex for you", I'd wager that it has much more to do with people not liking the thought of not playing well but don't want to find ways to play at a level that feels nice for them.
But since saying "But I don't want to knowingly play below average, so please nerf everything that my current gameplay level is considered 'good'" doesn't sound as nice as "Won't someone think of the disabled???", they go with the latter.
Or call everyone a tryhard elitist hardore minority raider.

Main SGE and SCH, still having fun.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

What a shame. At least you have better class identity in FFXI than in FFXIV.

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You do, but you also have no real balance there either from what I understand. That seems to be the trade off and no one wants to make it. If you have jobs with a robust and unique identity then you seem to lose the ability to have them balanced in a fair way. Honestly I am all for balance not being the most important factor of development and letting jobs grow in ways that are fun and interesting, but the moment jobs start straying beyond a few hundred rdps of each other the raid community seems to collectively shit itself in rage so here we are.

I don't understand how any game wouldn't be a faceroll after you've put 1800 hours into it. After running a dungeon so many times the only challenge left is compensating for people who don't know and haven't practiced the mechanics or dumb mistakes from complacency. Love it or hate it, after four expansions they're going to strip out old job gameplay so they can add new stuff, otherwise, the jobs would be incredibly bloated. If something got removed it was probably at the very bottom of a list of abilities and mechanics that people actually used. And yeah, some of this stuff is probably going to feel really easy, especially to someone who has 1800 hours in the game. :P

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Originally Posted by DragonFlyy

Main SGE and SCH, still having fun.

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Rock on, fellow lala.

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Originally Posted by maxxvoltage4

Speaking of toxic, thank you for volunteering to be a perfect representation.

You do realize that some people who play the game might have difficulty due to physical disabilities right? that bloat and overly complex button mashing would be difficult for say someone with mobility issues?

such single minded thought process you have.

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I can't stand the idea that the 90% of players should suffer because 10% don't have the ability. Not only that, the whole msq can be beaten by using the most basic abilities. It's not toxic, it's normal to want a video game to be fun.

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

Strangers of Paradise which was made for again, you people it failed because no one bought it but you people.

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You realize that game has a Story Casual mode, right? I played on that mode. It was fun as hell. And the story is great. Action and higher are there for those who want to challenge themselves with the more Soulslike aspects.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

I've been playing since ARR beta and I can say with absolute certainty that I have never, not once, in all these years seen someone get votekicked for playing suboptimal and making the run take a few minutes longer. And I mean suboptimal, not so bad that it's griefing like a tank not putting on stance and ignoring any requests to do so. Or a dps afking until a boss fight and waiting to get ported in, afking after the boss again.

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Agreed - in all my time playing the game, it's exceedingly rare that I've seen people votekicked, and usually it's for reasons like afk or griefing. Never have I seen it happen due to suboptimal performance, and that's even after some tips were given and not followed. As you say, its reportable anyway.

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You have the option to play poorly and still clear every normal content so everyone else should also have the option to play well and have a skill ceiling. Forcing everyone to play at a level that is meant for physically disabled people is nothing short of egoistic. Not to mention extremely disrespectful because contrary to what you might think many of them are not fond of people suggesting that everything needs to be brought down to baby level gameplay so they don't feel stressed and pressured. It's insulting.

From the reactions to "Then just set priorities and ignore skill X for now if it's too complex for you", I'd wager that it has much more to do with people not liking the thought of not playing well but don't want to find ways to play at a level that feels nice for them.
But since saying "But I don't want to knowingly play below average, so please nerf everything that my current gameplay level is considered 'good'" doesn't sound as nice as "Won't someone think of the disabled???", they go with the latter.
Or call everyone a tryhard elitist hardore minority raider.

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Well said.

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Originally Posted by Foraet

I don't understand how any game wouldn't be a faceroll after you've put 1800 hours into it. After running a dungeon so many times the only challenge left is compensating for people who don't know and haven't practiced the mechanics or dumb mistakes from complacency. Love it or hate it, after four expansions they're going to strip out old job gameplay so they can add new stuff, otherwise, the jobs would be incredibly bloated. If something got removed it was probably at the very bottom of a list of abilities and mechanics that people actually used. And yeah, some of this stuff is probably going to feel really easy, especially to someone who has 1800 hours in the game. :P

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I don't mean old content that of course can be tedious when done alot. I just don't agree with making the classes so easy that your have only your combo and 2 off GCD, healers suffer the most from boring rotations. I'm also not saying the game is currently boring. The direction they are going will eventually hit that point is my problem.

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Originally Posted by Foraet

I don't understand how any game wouldn't be a faceroll after you've put 1800 hours into it. After running a dungeon so many times the only challenge left is compensating for people who don't know and haven't practiced the mechanics or dumb mistakes from complacency. Love it or hate it, after four expansions they're going to strip out old job gameplay so they can add new stuff, otherwise, the jobs would be incredibly bloated. If something got removed it was probably at the very bottom of a list of abilities and mechanics that people actually used. And yeah, some of this stuff is probably going to feel really easy, especially to someone who has 1800 hours in the game. :P

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Don’t understand how y’all can say this when healers had their entire kits basically gutted. Spamming 1 button 90% of the time isn’t going to be fun no matter what content there is.

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Originally Posted by TReasyLG

I love these updates even with Sam the less ability’s the better IMO as long as the job identity remains I feel people are overreacting the faster I can understand my job the better the easier the better too and you may call me a filthy casual by saying this but if I can play a class that feels good fast to learn but hard to master in harder content then what's so bad about that I simply can't see the issue here especially if it means more accessibility. The harder the content the harder it is to play your job that's the simple fact no matter how easy you say your job is the difficulty is still there as a casual the dumbing down of classes has allowed me to enjoy this game much more than I use to back in HW and I've managed to go into and clear This tier as a casual this took me much longer but I cleared at the end of the day. I think that says a lot

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I actually don't disagree with you, I don't mind simple classes when done right, reaper is fun and simple, SMN and SAM are just simple now, not fun. SAM is just wait for your burst and do nothing while waiting.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

I've been playing since ARR beta and I can say with absolute certainty that I have never, not once, in all these years seen someone get votekicked for playing suboptimal and making the run take a few minutes longer.

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The thing is, they'd open up to being reported if they said anything in chat. I've definitely had times where the other two people in a party kicked a third without warning and when there were no issues. There was no chat in party, we hadn't wiped, and we were going through the pulls at what seemed a decent pace to me. Yet they still kicked. Usually didn't say anything when I asked either. Nobody ever admitted it was due to dps and they never will. It's not always the reason. There are people here on the forums who admit they will kick because they don't like someone's glam. But I don't know how you can say you've never seen someone kicked for suboptimal play because no one doing it would ever mention it. They would just wrap it up in some other reason. I usually see "afk" used when the person absolutely is in no way afk and is actively participating in every fight.

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Originally Posted by Maikul

Has anyone else noticed the slow change of every class being more and more brain dead. I don\\'t understand. What\\'s the point of a game with no challenge? Every Expert dungeon you can heal and dps in your sleep. The only challenges left are Savage and Ultimates. The new SAM changes makes it to where there\\'s no reward for knowing your class, same with SMN. We are not all noobs at this game please stop catering to the bad players. I have about 1800 house spent in this game and for the first time I thought about going back to WOW for some type of challenge in the casual content.

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button bloat is bad thing so i'm happy with these changes

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Don’t understand how y’all can say this when healers had their entire kits basically gutted. Spamming 1 button 90% of the time isn’t going to be fun no matter what content there is.

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I don't disagree with you, but a rotation in and of itself doesn't make a game more interesting whether you're doing 1 button or weaving 7. It's just an additional consideration because Yoshi P has made it clear the real content is the mechanics. And once you know the mechanics the only other challenge is, like I said, other players. So if the game is still not interesting at that point I don't understand how adding a more complicated rotation would make anything any better. I generally don't have any feelings about rotations because I personally prefer gameplay that requires me to respond. I like counters and so I like interrupts, but beyond trash and ARR bosses they are pretty much gutted. I don't even know why we have crowd control abilities outside of PvP anymore and that's a mechanic that's been gutted in favor of wall-to-wall pulls (which I personally find boring, but maybe exciting to an inexperienced healer or tank).

But that's fine because SE has compensated in a lot of other ways as you still have to pop mitigations and heals and bursts at specific times and stacking and dodging, etc, etc so that's reactive gameplay and I find that fun.

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Originally Posted by Lily_Skye

button bloat is bad thing so i'm happy with these changes

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they could have condensed quite a few skills but instead they remove kaiten

they could combine shoha + shoha 2

remove senei and revert guren to how it was in sb

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Is this where I get to say "Wait till 7.0" or do I need to wait till 6.3?

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This is around where we all just start quitting the game and say screw 7.0.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

This is around where we all just start quitting the game and say screw 7.0.

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I mean hyperbole at its finest to be honest, I am very much going to be round for 7.0 because it will be crucial to see how they handle a new story etc without current plot threads to tie up. I will be one to give it a chance especially with the visual overhaul etc.

I personally would prefer less buttons to push. lol I think they could prune a lot of class buttons. When class buttons moves beyond the two default action bars, it is too much imo. I am the type of person though that like things to just be fun and simple. Not necessarily overly easy I guess but easy to understand wtf is happening and why, and what i need to do. More buttons does not necessarily mean more complex or more difficult.. it just means clutter imo.. adding difficulty or complexity by adding buttons it is more artificial imo..

Also you got to think most players might not play like you do. Maybe they have some data somewhere that tells them that the average player is not at the play level as people like yourself. Usually these game companies tend to cater to the people in which gives them the most money. That is usually the normies/ casual players, cause they move through the content slower and thus have higher potential to give them money for longer periods of time and there are more of them... So I would imagine that , those are the types of people that will be catered to most often.
So it could honestly be set up that ffxiv is not a game built with people who are decently good at games in mind..

Complexity in rotations for the sake of complexity and artificial challenge is bad game design, in general.
However some people enjoy it anyway, and when you have as many classes as we have now there should be an option for it

They really need to focus more on class identity though. Thats the bigger issue, is that a lot of it is being removed

I also think they should have more variety with dungeons. Set piece dungeons are cool, but I actually prefer some of the ARR dungeons where you weren't just supposed to pull wall to wall.
I actually like that AV first room a lot for example. My issue with AV is aesthetics (its a cool design but unpleasant to me), but content wise its one of the better dungeons they've done.

Its also overkill with telegraphs. I enjoy the cyclops bosses that dont have ground telegraphs, but instead have mob animation ones. Like Halatali hard. I need to focus on the enemy itself, not the floor. The enemies like the Stone Vigil hard bosses as well. they reuse these bosses like Elden Ring reuses their mini bosses, but they are fun fights. Chimera is another example of a well designed boss fight.

Also, I feel we need a bit more unpredictability. Let us have to adapt more.

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Originally Posted by Broken_Wind

Complexity in rotations for the sake of complexity and artificial challenge is bad game design, in general.
However some people enjoy it anyway, and when you have as many classes as we have now there should be an option for it

They really need to focus more on class identity though. Thats the bigger issue, is that a lot of it is being removed

I also think they should have more variety with dungeons. Set piece dungeons are cool, but I actually prefer some of the ARR dungeons where you weren't just supposed to pull wall to wall.
I actually like that AV first room a lot for example. My issue with AV is aesthetics (its a cool design but unpleasant to me), but content wise its one of the better dungeons they've done.

Its also overkill with telegraphs. I enjoy the cyclops bosses that dont have ground telegraphs, but instead have mob animation ones. Like Halatali hard. I need to focus on the enemy itself, not the floor. The enemies like the Stone Vigil hard bosses as well. they reuse these bosses like Elden Ring reuses their mini bosses, but they are fun fights. Chimera is another example of a well designed boss fight.

Also, I feel we need a bit more unpredictability. Let us have to adapt more.

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Ive been sharing this opinion regarding to dungeons but all I get were people throwing at my face is that "it'll make them a slog to go through when you do them repeatedly for roulettes".

Yeah thanks, this is why we now have FFXIII designed dungeons only masked by beautiful set dressing and on rails visual story telling. They're fun the first time around, but please all I ask is to give them an extra something that makes them a tad more interesting to explore. The only reason I even like doing dungeons isnt even for the dungeon exploration itself, its just for popping off with playing your job and even thats already being debated with their current design.

Just please, please, please make dungeons be less linear.

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Originally Posted by Lily_Skye

button bloat is bad thing so i'm happy with these changes

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How are you feeling Button bloat when you don’t even have kaiten on your bar before it got removed???

Personally, thinking of switching to Black Mage as my main I was planning to main Samurai for the most part a month ago after I really got back into it. But with the Kaiten change, I'm really not sure I want to stick SAM... I remember while leveling it up when it first came out how dull/lacking your big Iaijutsu attacks were early on and once I finally unlocked Hissatsu: Kaiten that was a real game changer for me. It just felt so good hitting Kaiten when getting ready to shred a single or group of enemies with a super powered up attacked!

Now, without Kaiten giving me that dopamine hit/sense of accomplishment, I don't know if I really even want to touch it.

I played BLM on my alt when going through Shadowbringers on it before Endwalker came out and it remined me how much I loved it after having not played it in about a year. So...I'll probably switch to BLM because at the very least that Job will never see any real significant changes to it and the core of its gameplay will always stay the same. It's almost been the exact same job it's always been at its core since ARR launch, so that'll probably be the Job for me for now, unless I can actually get into SAM with its changes.

I also don't like the Warrior Overpower change. That was one of the FUN parts about being a Warrior, damit!!! :/

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Originally Posted by Broken_Wind

I also think they should have more variety with dungeons. Set piece dungeons are cool, but I actually prefer some of the ARR dungeons where you weren't just supposed to pull wall to wall.
I actually like that AV first room a lot for example. My issue with AV is aesthetics (its a cool design but unpleasant to me), but content wise its one of the better dungeons they've done.

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Unfortunately, people just do it anyway. I needed a few more tomes last night and did Aurum Vale for it. Tank grabbed the frog, ran around the left side and grabbed those mobs, then straight into the boss room where it and some of the other mobs just disengaged.

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Originally Posted by CStrife912

I mean hyperbole at its finest to be honest, I am very much going to be round for 7.0 because it will be crucial to see how they handle a new story etc without current plot threads to tie up. I will be one to give it a chance especially with the visual overhaul etc.

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So glad you understood that it was a hyperbole. Man you must have taken an english class before.

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Originally Posted by Chawan

I personally would prefer less buttons to push. lol I think they could prune a lot of class buttons. When class buttons moves beyond the two default action bars, it is too much imo. I am the type of person though that like things to just be fun and simple. Not necessarily overly easy I guess but easy to understand wtf is happening and why, and what i need to do. More buttons does not necessarily mean more complex or more difficult.. it just means clutter imo.. adding difficulty or complexity by adding buttons it is more artificial imo..

Also you got to think most players might not play like you do. Maybe they have some data somewhere that tells them that the average player is not at the play level as people like yourself. Usually these game companies tend to cater to the people in which gives them the most money. That is usually the normies/ casual players, cause they move through the content slower and thus have higher potential to give them money for longer periods of time and there are more of them... So I would imagine that , those are the types of people that will be catered to most often.
So it could honestly be set up that ffxiv is not a game built with people who are decently good at games in mind..

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I don't like a lot of buttons either, but there is a difference between condensing buttons and removing skills. The dev team have clearly shown they have the ability to condense the number of buttons, but for some reason have chosen not to for many classes. When there is a method to reduce buttons, and a skill is removed due to button bloat, that is where players start asking why is this happening.

Now are far as all those buttons go, yes for some one that is going to stay in more casual content sure you won't need some of those buttons. You have the option to remove those from your bar. How ever some of those buttons are more utilized in higher end content than casual.


To your second point, there is nothing wrong with catering to a larger demographic of the game, business wise it's a smart decision. How ever when you cater to much on one aspect then you begin to neglect another aspect, which is where the problem lies. There has to be a balance in a game like this, and the balance is shifting to far one direction which causes groups of players to become alienated, who will eventually just quit. As much as the player base believes the larger portion is casual, based on the current census, it is pretty balanced over all. Some data centers are far more casuals then others but over all I would put the game at around a 60 / 40 split leaning towards casuals. It really sucks for the devs to maintain that balance, probably not an easy thing to do. How ever I think they currently not doing a great job at it, as there is less casual content with longevity than there is harder content, which brings me back into the whole idea where I think the game generally needs more content over all.

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Originally Posted by Broken_Wind

Complexity in rotations for the sake of complexity and artificial challenge is bad game design, in general.
However some people enjoy it anyway, and when you have as many classes as we have now there should be an option for it

They really need to focus more on class identity though. Thats the bigger issue, is that a lot of it is being removed

I also think they should have more variety with dungeons. Set piece dungeons are cool, but I actually prefer some of the ARR dungeons where you weren't just supposed to pull wall to wall.
I actually like that AV first room a lot for example. My issue with AV is aesthetics (its a cool design but unpleasant to me), but content wise its one of the better dungeons they've done.

Its also overkill with telegraphs. I enjoy the cyclops bosses that dont have ground telegraphs, but instead have mob animation ones. Like Halatali hard. I need to focus on the enemy itself, not the floor. The enemies like the Stone Vigil hard bosses as well.

Also, I feel we need a bit more unpredictability. Let us have to adapt more.

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This I can agree with, I think having classes that are more complicated than others is fine. Look at BLM, the only reason it has not been completely ruined is because Yoshi P actually tests that himself. And it plays smooth, has a complexity to master that allows you to improve your game play over time, and a unique identity. Then you have summoner which is very easy to master, not to complicated, and has an identity of being a summoner.(sorry pre 6.0 summoners). I think these sort of things work both for players that want to solo and group for hard core content. That being said though, I do think every class should have something to give you a ceiling and a floor but those ceilings and floors can vary. And if you don't actually feel you should improve at a game over time, then I do not think you actually play video games. There are no games that don't force you to improve over time to complete. Tamagotchi isn't a video game.

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Originally Posted by Maikul

Has anyone else noticed the slow change of every class being more and more brain dead. I don\\'t understand. What\\'s the point of a game with no challenge? Every Expert dungeon you can heal and dps in your sleep. The only challenges left are Savage and Ultimates. The new SAM changes makes it to where there\\'s no reward for knowing your class, same with SMN. We are not all noobs at this game please stop catering to the bad players. I have about 1800 house spent in this game and for the first time I thought about going back to WOW for some type of challenge in the casual content.

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Not everyone is playing for challenge. Some just want to play with friends, relax and have fun. Others enjoy the story. They don't care about the difficulty level. Not everyone thinks that having 40 different keybinds makes for compelling game play.

SE has to design the game just as much for them as for you if not more since they comprise the bulk of the player base. You stop getting the new content you want if they stop paying the bills to make it because they aren't getting the content they want.

By all means, play WoW again if you feel it suits you better. Return here when new Savage/Ultimate content is released, get your fill then go back to WoW yet again. The idea that enjoying more than one MMO is a heinous crime needs to be stamped out. It's okay to play both, really.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I don't like a lot of buttons either, but there is a difference between condensing buttons and removing skills. The dev team have clearly shown they have the ability to condense the number of buttons, but for some reason have chosen not to for many classes. When there is a method to reduce buttons, and a skill is removed due to button bloat, that is where players start asking why is this happening.

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Have you seen the reactions on the thread suggesting condensing button?
You'd think they were asking for kaiten to be removed. LMAO

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

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I mean in general I agree mostly.. about needing to find balance.. However it must indeed be quite hard to find good balance.. because from all my experience between the mmos I have played over the years. particularly WoW, SWTOR and FFXIV there seems to be a common occurrence.. and that is issues with balance between the types of players.. Once a player base gets to a certain size I wonder if it gets hard to find who to listen to? or WHAT to listen to?.. EVERYONE wants the game they chose to play, to cater to them specifically (or their play style group) it seems.. the larger the player base becomes the more fractured it becomes to different play styles and the more vocal each play style group becomes.. I wonder if it just gets to the point where the easier route is just to sacrifice a few play styles to fit the most common play style, or maybe even the play style they prefer to be playing their game.. if the playerbase is indeed that evenly split as to what kind of players play this game regularly then perhaps people need to put their money where their mouth is and teach them a lesson and.. play something else. Perhaps then there will be a noticeable pull to make them rethink their stance. Tho coming from WoW that makes me wonder if that will work or not..

edit: i mean granted .. I don't care either way. I like the game enough to deal with whatever for the most part.. so long as i can still at least fumble my way through with a smile on my face it is fine.. I have low expectations though and am relativly easy to entertain. It is just unfortunate others are not so easy lol. I really do hope that things are not as bad as you all think it will be.. and or can manage to still have fun. I have no aversions to people who simply like to play harder. :p

Oh noo.. the game is more approachable. The end approaches I guess

Man, everything was so much better and complex in HW right? Like Caster Bard.................

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Oh noo.. the end approaches I guess

Man, everything was so much better in HW right? Like Caster Bard........

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I don't understand why you waste the time to get on here, read this (probably just the title,) and post something random about doom and gloom instead of something actually contributing something meaningful to the conversation. Cause all it is, is just meaning less spam people have to wade through to read anything with any sort of thought put into it.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I don't understand why you waste the time to get on here, read this (probably just the title,) and post something random about doom and gloom instead of something actually contributing something meaningful to the conversation. Cause all it is, is just meaning less spam people have to wade through to read anything with any sort of thought put into it.

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Pardon me, I've seen the topic of this thread posted several times for a long time and all I see is the topic going in circles about the same things.
This convo was exhausted months ago.

Also it's just fun to me.

I'm just disappointed that every job is becoming homogenized such that there's going to be very little difference in playstyle other than how the effects look.

The steps recently taken by SE to FF14 seems to steer towards casting as wide a net as possible to attract all sorts of players, and this usually alienates the more dedicated/hardcore players which is usually the most loyal part of its player base. Whenever something like this happens in a game, the more dedicated players will become disenchanted and eventually quit, leaving behind a casual player base which has little loyalty and flock to whichever game is the flavor of the month.

Eventually, this will lead into a death spiral where there are lesser and lesser players and the game eventually dies. Already, we are already seeing signs of this happening, which is really sad since FF14 is a game with so much potential and SE is squandering it away to appeal to the lowest denominator.

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Originally Posted by Lily_Skye

button bloat is bad thing so i'm happy with these changes

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Go watch a movie. Given your previous posts you obviously don't like to interact with video games.

Caster Bard was interesting, same as Gun Mage. Both far more so than what they are now. You can play the job wrong, but why force a dumbing down for the players that enjoy it?

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

This is around where we all just start quitting the game and say screw 7.0.

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Then goodbye, I guess? I'll be here having fun if you do come back.

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Originally Posted by Thorio

Then goodbye, I guess? I'll be here having fun if you do come back.

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Wow what a friendly community! Definitely not passive aggressive!

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

FFXI's Puppermaster class was the most fun classes I have ever played in an MMO. After seeing what they did with Blu I don't even want Pup to be on the table.

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Was my main. I shudder to think what current SE would do to it. Please don't implement it. I want my good memories stay untarnished. lol

The moment you feel the game is no longer giving you want you want, you better move on to other games that match with you better.
And there is no shame in that, nobody needs to justify neither their willingness to play or willingness not to play.
The player community has grown so much over the years that there are just so many different player factions they have to juggle that some are going to feel unserved.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Caster Bard was interesting, same as Gun Mage. Both far more so than what they are now. You can play the job wrong, but why force a dumbing down for the players that enjoy it?

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People want to optimize the fun out of a game, and they dont even know it. If a player does something unconventional, they are often instantly called a troll or noob. Every game suffers from this part, unless the playerbase can be reliably split between the groups (for FPS games this is usualy pub vs ranked). And thats also why games like call of duty are for most dedicated players usualy not that good (because they focus on the simple player that just wants to enjoy whatever he does). Team fortress 2 also used to be very oriented around teamwork, but over time each class became more self oriented (where especialy the sniper noticed this by getting anti spy counters - one of the most horrible ideas ever).

The problem is mainly when a game starts to become mainstream. FFXIV used to be niche, now its competing agianst WoW. Where WoW already was dumbed down to the extreme on that, because it had to remain mainstream. If ffxiv remained niche, then those players would very likely quickly leave again, because they cant bother adjusting.

The main issue is that people want expected behaviour from a certain class to be that behaviour. And devs know the importance of this. Every time the behaviour doesnt match the expectation, players complain about the class, and in extreme cases will start to protest and make the infestation worse. You realy dont want to know how mixed up the tf2 player base is/was. It was absolutely horrible as some want the spycrab behaviour (essentialy being a useless afker), some want actual competition (very strict weapon and class restrictions), some want normal pub competition (no strict rules), and some want to troll (disrupting the team). This is what you can get when not adjusting to the playerbase. A lot of servers at some point simply applied AFK detection based on point scoring etc, just to get rid of certain problem groups. Votekicking was already essential to get rid of trolls, and in some cases they actualy use this to get normal players out of a game (especialy competetively skilled players can dominate pub servers).

Its sad that this often dumbs down games. But at the same time, its innevitable to happen.

The only real difficulty they can add is making the challenges themselve harder, instead of the class. And in a proper balance, this is fine. You will sometimes be surprised if they have an event where you can go back to the old system, on how much QoL does towards your fun. What you consider fun in complexity might actualy just have been an anoyance you have trained yourself to be used to. The only reason you dont notice it, is because in the earlier days everyone struggled the same way.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

You do, but you also have no real balance there either from what I understand. That seems to be the trade off and no one wants to make it. If you have jobs with a robust and unique identity then you seem to lose the ability to have them balanced in a fair way. Honestly I am all for balance not being the most important factor of development and letting jobs grow in ways that are fun and interesting, but the moment jobs start straying beyond a few hundred rdps of each other the raid community seems to collectively shit itself in rage so here we are.

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hmm I don't know, I'm Dancer main on FFXI and I'm not a META job at all, yet I have gotten into parties and Job point farming. Yes the Meta is there and yes, your going to have some people who won't want you because your a Beastmaster or Ninja , but there's some people who will accept you, who will bring you into groups, especially Linkshells.


Also job uniqueness and Identity is in FFXI and that's what makes it fun, why would you want all jobs to be so balanced that they lose their identity? it's not fun. What's the point of FFXIV Jobs if they all play the same?



As Dancer, Im a DPS/Support Healer

I can Heal using TP with curing Waltz 1-5, Healing Waltz ( Esuna) and Devine Waltz 1-2 ( AoE heal)

Haste Samba provides Haste to the party

and Dancers Steps provides debuffs to enemy targets

Again I'm not META but FFXI Dancer is alot of fun and I don't have trouble getting into parties