If you continue to dumb down the game, you will lose half your player base

Wow, the people on the healer forum were right. The second a DPS job gets its kit pruned, a whole uproar happens in General Discussion. Not trying to create a divide, but it is funny how this works.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

This sounds more like an excuse to just discredit someones opinion just because you dont agree with it.
Not to say that there isn't likely at lease 1 person in SE's pocket...but I doubt every single person is being paid to say nice things or get emotionally driven in invested into the game...might as well just say WoW was never good because all of its praise is from Paid Actors...
Silly Right?

Those facts dont dictate other peoples experiences. Xeno, or Asmondgold getting interviews or sent stuff doesn't mean their experience or any praise of the game is bought out.
To say it is based on said facts, sounds more like you just want them to have the same opinion as you, and if they dont then its influenced.

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When some one like zepla that has played this game for years, claims that the 6.1 has an excess of content as if it were any different than other x.1 patches. And 6.1 being the same as 5.1 or 4.1 is a fact, you can go and look at the previous patch notes now and see its the same content that drops every x.1 patch. The only extra special content you are getting is another pvp revamp which has happened multiple times. Yes I believe some youtubers are being endorsed to praise certain aspects of the game. They may have there own opinions of the story, game play, or what ever I don't really care. But, it does not change that they have videos that are endorsed by SE, and are treated differently than your average youtuber that covers the same content. Now did I say everyone, no you just claimed that yourself. Who are most people likely watching for FFXIV content?

Are you not posting all various threads that the threads are non-sense because you don't like the opinions in them?
Are these opinions offending you, hurting you, bothering you in some way?
If you don't like the threads, why don't you quit visiting for forums?

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

They actually are not different in nature. They are to make classes more player friendly, and to homogenize the classes. This is the exact reason WoW did this as well, which they eventually fixed for tanks and healers but DPS for the most part is pretty terrible to play in WoW. Currently WoW has more fun gameplay if you want to tank or heal, FFXIV has more fun game play if you want to DPS. With the route FFXIV is going with classes though, WoW will just end up having better game play.

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And then there's Gw2 which actually has solid gameplay for both DPS and heal builds. As a healer, you're supplying your team with heals and boons on top of having an entire DPS rotation to fall back on. The game never felt like it insulted your intelligence and each class is unique.

I think Its wild some players don't realize you can have both and even a middle ground of class complexity and difficulty In a MMO especially one with as many Jobs as FFXIV, there are enough Jobs to have one "easy/simple" one "Medium/Nuanced" and a "Difficult/Complex" In every single role, so many players are tied up In the idea that either every class needs to be difficult or brain dead easy.

I honestly think players just want to feel "cool" on every class they play without working for It at this point, they want all the big shiny numbers on their screen while doing the bare minimum, god forbid the player who spends a few hours learning the class and Its rotation do more damage then the guy who just unlocked the job, Literally Crab Theory/mentality. Also explains all the ultimate clear buying, everybody wants to look cool until every joe and his mom has cool shiny weapons and now they're special for nobody lol.

/endrant

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Originally Posted by Knot_D

Imagine caring about buttons while the true endgame is Fishing and Mahjong...

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According to papa Yoshida, the true endgame is taking a break to play other games.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Hopefully half the player base will leave, as it will probably make them address the issues.

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they won't.
They'll just keep making threads like this xD

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Are you not posting all various threads that the threads are non-sense because you don't like the opinions in them?
Are these opinions offending you, hurting you, bothering you in some way?
If you don't like the threads, why don't you quit visiting for forums?

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Is this what Hyperbole looks like?
Or is this a Strawman?.....either way lmao

No, Im not offended, hurt, or bothered by people having opinions....are you?
The existence of this thread doesnt effect me in any way, so no thanks, I wont quit visiting for forums.

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Originally Posted by Novae

According to papa Yoshida, the true endgame is taking a break to play other games.

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He's right though. IMO this game can get stale at times. And he knows it. That's why he said that XD

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Originally Posted by Erinellza

It depends on the player. I find it fun to press 500 different buttons during combat. Some don't, and that's okay. The real problem is drastic job changes. I agree with OP: "Dumbing down existing jobs is not in any way acceptable, and is an insult to players who main those jobs. If you want to make something simple, then you need to create new jobs that are simple from the beginning." Summoner was my first main as a Sprout but now I fall alseep when I play it.

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This is kind of how I felt about the BIG RED THIS IS A TANK BUSTER bull they just added. Like because I play a tank I am big dumb and need a huge telegraph to figure out the very easy this is tank buster this is aoe hit reprisal that is the mechanics for most dungeon bosses. It is even in savage. "SAVAGE". I know this could be helpful to a healer maybe, but when I play healer I know the tank busters from playing tank and reading the cast bar. I am unsure what made this a thing, but it was a small bit insulting. The devs think we are so dumb that we need a very obvious telegraph for something you literally figure out that was part of the fun for tanking for me. Now there is no mystery just wait for big red telegraph push button. Can't wait until they back port this to every dungeon so I see a bright you are dumb icon. There may be another reason for this and may be helpful to some. I am wondering if there is a way to disable it in the config somewhere. It is a spoiler for me and now the new dungeons will be predictable. It's like someone just gives me a puzzle but the answer is already filled in.

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Originally Posted by Erinellza

It depends on the player. I find it fun to press 500 different buttons during combat. Some don't, and that's okay. The real problem is drastic job changes. I agree with OP: "Dumbing down existing jobs is not in any way acceptable, and is an insult to players who main those jobs. If you want to make something simple, then you need to create new jobs that are simple from the beginning." Summoner was my first main as a Sprout but now I fall asleep when I play it.

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Summoner's situation was given up on by enough people in 5.0 to warrant a rework that it should have received in Heavensward. There was no salvaging that mess, not with how much more prominent its glitches were and how far gone it was from the original focus of the class in the context of the Final Fantasy franchise as a whole.

- however -

There is no reason why as a level 90 summoner I have no access to Shiva/Ramuh/Levi. Get to work SE! By this point in FFXI I was walking around laying waste to everything with Fenrir and maxed out elemental summons I had gone the lengths to power up with the merits system.

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Originally Posted by Erinellza

Summoner was my first main as a Sprout but now I fall asleep when I play it.

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Speaking of the falling asleep when playing.. it is really tough when someone will ask me should they play FF14. I must inform them that yes however you will be bored senselessly for one entire expansion and fifty levels though..

Especially for fricken healer oh my lawd. "Nope! You do not get aoe button until 45 and it is locked behind annoying quest for sub par gear." It.. feels bad having to say these things but tis the truth.

Maahhh, when do I inform them that 90% of their time playing will be walking somewhere then standing there then killing one enemy while other half is rouletting into low level synced content. Shooot... Good thing they are all enjoying the fun game buried beneath the nonsense and complexity offered by stumbling through learning their rotations! That is what I found most fun! But what will occur when even that is gone?

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Originally Posted by Iedarus

Wow, the people on the healer forum were right. The second a DPS job gets its kit pruned, a whole uproar happens in General Discussion. Not trying to create a divide, but it is funny how this works.

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Seasoned healer mains when they see people crying about NIN/SAM upcoming adjustment: https://keepmeme.com/meme/20210927/f...nging-meme.jpg

Only BLMs gets to be awesome. Everything else must not have a gap between skill floor and skill ceiling! /s

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Summoner's situation was given up on by enough people in 5.0 to warrant a rework that it should have received in Heavensward. There was no salvaging that mess, not with how much more prominent its glitches

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I swore they said they removed the pet entirely because I know when I was playing smn ifit would go back and forth to me and the boss several times just doing a dance, and bahamut from stopping it's cast if you moved. When I was playing the new variant it keeps running back and forth to me and I can't pre place the pet or order it all now. At lower levels I have seen the carbucles/legos going back and forth when a target dies than runs in and disappears. There is also the very fun titan wiff as I like to call it where you summon titan or ifrit and instead of going in just wiffs his spell on one enemy hitting none of the others in a pull. This happens the worse when the pull is still on the move if your attacking while moving. I haven't played it much since the changes but when I did it just felt like the issues were still there but now I can't work around them or have any control over the situation. If you pre position your buncle/support doggo it means nothing when summoning anything because it just poofs and the summon comes from the body of the summoner instead of where the buncle was placed. It drives me up a wall, so I don't play smn much. I would be lying if I said I didn't miss the dots, but they had to remove them because the mean people were calling smn a dot mage.

I miss my 6 odd dots, i miss pet control and i miss protect and stoneskin on my scholar. Lots of clicking or using controller and the feeling of being busy even if it is for the sake of it. I miss the stance dancing of the tanks and earning emnity and maintaining it, cross job interaction and even paladin flash. Things felt like they hit hard and titan HM was a challenge but seems so basic now but it wont be going back to that era for me sadly, but just my opinion.

Whilst I will continue to play I get that people get frustrated in gender locked issues, glam complaints etc we all have different things we want from the game it has certainly moved in different directions but I will stick it out to the end as its been a journey. As it goes to more single player mode I do worry if it could kill the game as I am not sure how the sub model would work and that worries me. But I have had 10 years of fun so the journey has been worth it for me and I hope it continues.

I will never get button fetishists.

10 fingers, we got 10 fingers. And with mouse and keyboards half of those are already preoccupied managing the cursor/camera.

I didn't leave WoW because of the pruning, it was the forced daily chores.. a list a long as my arm. System upon system, currency upon currency.

It stopped being fun.

Pruning is fine with me. It could also open the game up more to those with disabilities.

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Originally Posted by AnnaUK

I didn't leave WoW because of the pruning, it was the forced daily chores.. a list a long as my arm. System upon system, currency upon currency.

It stopped being fun.

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Pretty much. Every patch there comes with a daily power grind that runs on a bit over one month cycle to unlock the most important things. It's simply being designed to be treated as a job rather than leisure if you want to participate in any of the challenging gameplay.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I also want to add to this that, just because someone doesn’t come here and post doesn’t mean that they are inherently satisfied. They could just be completely apathetic to the state of things at this point. Or maybe they couldn’t care less about what’s happening. Maybe they don’t have an opinion. Or maybe they truly are satisfied. All that said, you cannot take these silent bystanders and include them in this “majority versus minority” argument when you don’t even know their stance.

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Was about to reply something along those lines.

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Originally Posted by Imoye

Blizzard literally went on a raging simplification spree. Notably pruning and removing tons of abilities from each class and specializations in the name of "accessibility". Shortly after the game went downhill big time. Skill expression is today completely gone in WoW. Every class plays braindead 1-2-3 button smashing that literally dulls your brain as you play.

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Neither here nor there, but I honestly wonder when was the last time you played WoW?

WoW classes for the most part are more complicated than FFXIV classes, as they function off priority systems instead of a static sequence of buttons, typically require you to pay more attention to the rotation on top of the boss mechanics-not even to mention how your rotation can change depending on what your character has access to. Only exception might be demon hunter, they have pretty few buttons, but even they aren't a '1 2 3' like say, FFXIV's Paladin or Warrior.

(Just my opinion though. Almost a 10 year raider in both games, btw.)

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Originally Posted by AnnaUK

Pruning is fine with me. It could also open the game up more to those with disabilities.

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Having been trying soooooo fricken hard not to comment towards the myriad of disability posts that keep appearing but no. Just.. no. I do not need be catered to because I derive satisfaction from succeeding despite issues I may or may not have.

Post after post everyone appears to suffer from some crippling disability lately. Not everyone with issues will feel the same, would find it insulting actually. Partner stated biiiiiig difference between providing wheelchair ramp and banning stairs because some people cannot walk. Also.. for anyone who does this, stop please just.. stop. Stop wielding your disability like some kinda cudgel to smash others over the head with for sympathy it is not a good look.

It becomes too much. You cannot plan for all issues players may have it is simply impossible. Sure sure can make it easier but at what cost? Let me keep my buttons please because I found solutions that work for me already as did many friends and extended family. Those same solutions are there for anyone else should they put in enough effort to utilize them.

Seems like there's a trend of calling out xiv for getting too simple yet I feel its too little too late, shb already felt like this and the game was indeed losing playerbase back then because people hated these changes and now a lot of wow players that are still on honeymoon and people that come from other media too are saying that this is what's making the game grow but its not, even the shittiest products get by with a lot of advertisement and at some point the playerbase is gonna have enough of the same stale xiv.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

Might be concerns about button bloat after an entire 90 levels, especially for controller players, but there are also ways to address that without stripping away abilities; for instance, Gunbreaker got a useful change that makes one of their three-part combos that connects with another action limited to a single button that now changes over time. Why not do something like that for more 1-2-3 combos instead of deleting stuff?

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I honestly don't get why us playstation players be used as an excuse to dumb things down. The real issue will always be people are too lazy to use all the different hot bar and control set ups to make their life easy. There's always be entire controller setup tutorials all across YouTube to get people started but big nope I guess. This is probably precisely why Yoshi has been working on a new hot bar format for controllers or at least that's the understanding that players have of the update across the board.

Towards the thread, yeah... I was burned first by the massive healer changes and then burned again by SMN changes. It's like, why couldn't they just create new easy to play jobs so the people struggling could go play those and leave the other jobs as they were? Other MMORPGS even made two different versions of the same job where the effects and gameplay of it would be different. If one was too much, play the other version. Other two boring? Play the more difficult version of it. Nevermind other games (even some mobile games have this) where they have a rank system that tells players as they're creating their characters, how hard each job is to play from the start. At least in these games, we can maintain our trust in developers that they will not strip our play style from us and instead just introduce new classes based on people who couldn't handle the current classes/jobs available.

Any option like those would've worked so much better then taking away what people prefer then to cater to a different side that didn't even care for the job before.

It sounds like the Japanese player base it not very thrilled with some of the changes, and direction as well.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/tufpqp/patch_61_initial_japanese_responses_and_reactions/

Note: read the whole thing as the later half shows where a lot more discontent comes into play.

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Originally Posted by Imoye

Yoshi P said in a video that FFXIV wouldn't exist were it not for WoW. The game was a major inspirational source for this game. My question really is: Is the dev team willing to learn from the mistakes Blizzard made?

Blizzard literally went on a raging simplification spree. Notably pruning and removing tons of abilities from each class and specializations in the name of "accessibility". Shortly after the game went downhill big time. Skill expression is today completely gone in WoW. Every class plays braindead 1-2-3 button smashing that literally dulls your brain as you play.

I truly do not understand why the developers want to do the same thing to FFXIV. Heck, Blizzard even recently stated that pruning was a mistake. They're now trying to "undo" the damage, but that's likely going to take multiple expansions of work. Why on earth would you want to repeat this same mistake in FFXIV?

Having easy jobs is perfectly fine, but there needs to be jobs that offer also medium difficulty and high difficulty. Pruning and dumbing down existing jobs is not in any way acceptable, and is an insult to players who main those jobs. If you want to make something simple, then you need to create new jobs that are simple from the beginning - period. People are invested in their jobs and you're actively disrespecting their affection by making changes none of them asked for.

By all means, continue to remove abilities and make the game play itself. You will not gain more subs; but you will lose half your player base from your arrogance.

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The developers should have the information what skills are used or just ignored because of way to much button bloat. So its normal to remove the button bloat to make the game play more fun, so we will still see more new players in FF14.

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Originally Posted by Loonies

The developers should have the information what skills are used or just ignored because of way to much button bloat. So its normal to remove the button bloat to make the game play more fun, so we will still see more new players in FF14.

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I highly doubt, a player thinking about buying FFXIV is going to look at reviews or the classes or anything and think, I don't know if I want to buy this, that button bloat.

New players usually will play the free trial version, find the job what they like and then buy the game. Not every job has to much buttons, but some do have, that's why the developer change this. Developers do these changes not for fun, they do changes because better for the large part of the players.

Ye I think the same as you. Thing is yoshi stated he is now going after the solo players that "fear"the mmo part of 14. That why they do all the things more and more simple and easy. So far they did not do it to the raids but we see by 7.0 . Problem now is the game is boring out side the 1 day you do raids,that if you even do them. I for now don't so it's super hard to even force my self to do the weakly tomes. Hope they stop it and star to add more mid core content but 8 don't think yoshi want to.

Because it's not the reason. They take out the skills that differentiate the good from the bad players. The ones that you need to know when to use to maximize the DPS.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Summoner's situation was given up on by enough people in 5.0

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Unless I'm misremembering, SMN pre-rework was one of the top 5 played jobs on the log website. Pretty sure someone made various posts about that in one of the SMN threads after the rework

Honestly I'm getting tired of fighting this battle. Understand that Blizzard had little RPG experience prior to WoW. They had Diablo, which was derivative and more focused on action than RPG elements. Weird for someone in a company (SE) that has a much longer history in RPGs to put WoW on such a pedestal

Wow was a great game, however much of what was great was borrowed from other games, and much of that has been removed. There's nothing wrong with using certain ideas from other games, but it was clear they didn't really understand why they even copied those ideas. Why those ideas helped develop the world and the community was apparently lost on them.

The worst thing was when they started talking about fun. Fun is important, but fun is not hard. In any genre you need to have goals that are bigger than just raw fun. And when WoW devs started talking fun, it meant something that that many people found fun was going away.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Having been trying soooooo fricken hard not to comment towards the myriad of disability posts that keep appearing but no. Just.. no. I do not need be catered to because I derive satisfaction from succeeding despite issues I may or may not have.

Post after post everyone appears to suffer from some crippling disability lately. Not everyone with issues will feel the same, would find it insulting actually. Partner stated biiiiiig difference between providing wheelchair ramp and banning stairs because some people cannot walk. Also.. for anyone who does this, stop please just.. stop. Stop wielding your disability like some kinda cudgel to smash others over the head with for sympathy it is not a good look.

It becomes too much. You cannot plan for all issues players may have it is simply impossible. Sure sure can make it easier but at what cost? Let me keep my buttons please because I found solutions that work for me already as did many friends and extended family. Those same solutions are there for anyone else should they put in enough effort to utilize them.

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I am not disabled, but my daughter is.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I highly doubt, a player thinking about buying FFXIV is going to look at reviews or the classes or anything and think, I don't know if I want to buy this, that button bloat.

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My partner quit due to the button bloat recently. He hated it.. "why do we need so many buttons" he said. Noone is asking for 6 buttons active at once like ESO but I do feel there are too many buttons for some jobs.

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Originally Posted by AnnaUK

I am not disabled, but my daughter is.

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Sorry about your daughter, but I don't know why you feel the need to share that with us or how it pertains to the game being dumbed down.

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Originally Posted by AnnaUK

My partner quit due to the button bloat recently. He hated it.. "why do we need so many buttons" he said. Noone is asking for 6 buttons active at once like ESO but I do feel there are too many buttons for some jobs.

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Did he quit after purchasing the game?
The free trial honestly is just a sample, by the and of HW most classes are still about 3 or 4 buttons.

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Originally Posted by Loonies

The developers should have the information what skills are used or just ignored because of way to much button bloat. So its normal to remove the button bloat to make the game play more fun, so we will still see more new players in FF14.

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They've also been prone to taking a handful of comments as an excuse to change something even if the overwhelming majority of players are fine with it. Such as when they decided to change the Sage icon due to 'trypophobia' (despite leaving the leatherworker icon alone when it in itself has many more holes than the original design for Sage had!)

If that isn't enough, look how utterly obsessed they've become with the idea of removing the gender lock on hairstyles and gear despite many more people just wanting conventionally attractive options for whatever gender of character that they're playing.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Feedback is good when the feedback is a well-thought-out and coherent solution when thought about logically, and not out of spite for pre-existing systems. Not that I disagree, but there is a point where solutions become so outlandish that it is counterintuitive for getting a point across.

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It is not and never will be our responsibility as paying costumers, the consumers, to deliver a 'well-thought-out and coherent solution' for the product we're consuming.
You are dumping the responsibility for the success of a product on the costumer.

If someone comes to me and wants a tailor-made dress to achieve a specific look it is my job and my responsibility to get all the data I need, to get the right fabric, to design a pattern that works and so on. And if the costumer is unhappy with the result, it is my responsibility to work with whatever feedback they are willing and able to provide as a person without any in-depth knowledge and make it work.
It is not their job to give me a design and pattern according to their vision. They pay me for doing it.

Feedback is feedback and not a spoonfed solution.
If someone says "I want more battle content with some longevity, preferably with different difficulty levels or scaling difficulty" it is the developers' job to find ways to make it work.
Not the costumers job to deliver a fleshed-out system that only needs to be coded. If there happens to be a costumer that is extremely good with such thing and maybe even has some firsthand experience with game developing and can provide a coherent solution that could be used with minor tweaks at best as it is, that's is a bonus an deserves respect but it is not our job.
A gaming company with many, many years of experience in RPGs should be able to work with feedback like "I liked this system that other game had, maybe withou issue X and Y but I liked the core system".

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Originally Posted by Theodric

They've also been prone to taking a handful of comments as an excuse to change something even if the overwhelming majority of players are fine with it. Such as when they decided to change the Sage icon due to 'trypophobia' (despite leaving the leatherworker icon alone when it in itself has many more holes than the original design for Sage had!)

If that isn't enough, look how utterly obsessed they've become with the idea of removing the gender lock on hairstyles and gear despite many more people just wanting conventionally attractive options for whatever gender of character that they're playing.

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You keep saying things like "overwhelming majority" and "more people" but how do you know that's the case? Not saying that aren't people who do feel that way, yourself being an example, but you're clearly an intelligent enough person to recognize that there's a massive gap between "I want it like this" and "most people want it like this." You've called for "the numbers" in your other thread so you are clearly acknowledging that you don't have, well, the numbers.

While I'd imagine the "overwhelming majority" probably aren't overly invested either way, they do appreciate having more options and more stuff they want in the game (or made available to them if it for some reason isn't available to them).

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

You have to remember a lot of youtubers that cover FFXIV content are endorsed by SE in some way. Do you really think if John Doe made FF content with a smaller channel that was not endorsed by SE went through the same experience as Zepla and lost the same FF merch. Do you think SE would have sent them anything? Do you not think it is weird that certain content creators are brought to interview Yoshi P but some one like Xenos is not invited? You have to be fairly ignorant to ignore these facts.

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Lucy Pyre and MisshapenChair are about the only XIV content creators bothering to talk about the actual problems with the game, and they are unfortunately much smaller channels.

And they'll, of course, get written off as 'negative nancy tryhards' because god forbid they ask for the game to give even a modicum amount of challenge to its players, offer them better teaching tools to improve, and generally give us lasting content that people want to do for more than the sake of a carrot on a stick at the end.

Most other big name content creators for this game in specific just offer praise for anything and everything SE does. Even their personal dislikes get drowned out in the same breath by the praise. Honestly, I was almost shocked to see Zepla going completely off about the Hrothgar hair issue.

This topic is a yikes and a half from me. The game isn't going anywhere just because they're making jobs more playable. A few people might leave because they mistakenly attribute "more buttons" as actual difficulty and skill, but if they leave over that, then they were probably going to leave anyway. I shouldn't have to be dancing my fingers around my controller and contorting my hands just to make a job playable. Many jobs have far too many buttons.

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Originally Posted by Demetri_Delethorn

Many jobs have far too many buttons.

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There is whoooole truck load of methods to reduce buttons without removing complexity. Astro for the example, why do I require four separate buttons to play and draw cards? Why did crown draw/play become separate buttons again? Why the heck is Oblation not trait that improves tbn?

Oh look at all the skills that could simply also do aoe with potency fall off. If I have to hear about 1,2,3 being complexity some how this Mia is going to explode! Look we get it, you can count higher then Valve but these could all be on one button. Yeeting core skills is what makes the jobs less entertaining. Skills that improve or modify other skills, skills you rotate through with varied order.

Besides you just hold L2 - R2 and press d-pad or face buttons anyways. Sometimes you press both triggers at same time then press the d-pad. If someone with my size hands can do this anyone can do this.

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Originally Posted by ryouma17

having to press 500 different buttons during combat does not make the game fun

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If it's an action game then yes. But 8n teb target you need to have lots of skills or it's boring. It's the reason all hate low level dungeons. No skills to use.