The Dead Ends is brutal for tanks, I end up quitting any random queues for this duty

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

Are you the same guy who after posting this is going into other threads claiming I don't use such and such because you posted this message lol

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If you're straight up blaming others for your own faults, expect to be called out for it.

You aren't using "such and such". You're missing half your toolkit. It's just fact. That in itself is fine, if I see a new player making mistakes but with the right attitude that's no problem. But your attitude is terrible.

You attacked healers for not healing you. It turned out to be your gameplay. Just learn from it, maybe post a thread and ask for tips on being a better tank. Practice your mitigation. Read a guide or two on your rotation. People will respect you more and be happy to help. It'll mean you end up contributing more to your team and your runs will feel smoother overall. Win-win really.

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

Agreed and most people need to remember as well most players in this game are playing via controller. So its not easy to hover over the debuff or for the tank simply to quickly tag and provoke a far away enemy

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That...isn't even remotely true...

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

As a healer, I never ever had an issue using Esuna. Its quick and fast. Now if your DPSing the entire time and low on MP thats a problem. However the WM also has the ability for MP quick regain which works great even though there is a cool down. I found it easier to Heal using a controller then to tank with a controller. In fact Esuna is so simple to use thats why I have been confused why people do not like using Esuna more.

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It's because 99% of the time, you're better off using that GCD doing something differently; namely DPSing so that the fight ends quicker. Most debuffs don't matter or can basically be negated with an OGCD heal, so why take the time to use a GCD to cleanse it?

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

Agreed and most people need to remember as well most players in this game are playing via controller. So its not easy to hover over the debuff or for the tank simply to quickly tag and provoke a far away enemy

As a healer, I never ever had an issue using Esuna. Its quick and fast. Now if your DPSing the entire time and low on MP thats a problem. However the WM also has the ability for MP quick regain which works great even though there is a cool down. I found it easier to Heal using a controller then to tank with a controller. In fact Esuna is so simple to use thats why I have been confused why people do not like using Esuna more.

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I know a lot of people who play on controller, and targeting is only an issue when they're starting the game, not in the endgame. If you're having a hard time targetting stuff far away from you, use the enmity list (if the icon isn't red, then that's the one you need to provoke). You don't need to hover over the debuff either, just the person, because Esuna doesn't dispel what you want to dispel half the time (it dispels a random debuff). Healers are supposed to DPS, it is more MP efficient and since esuna is single target it really depends on which kind of debuff people have and how many do they have. If 1 or 2 people get hit by bad breath you would not going to dispel each and every debuff off of them, would you?

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

Agreed and most people need to remember as well most players in this game are playing via controller. So its not easy to hover over the debuff or for the tank simply to quickly tag and provoke a far away enemy

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Controllers aren’t an issue when it comes to switching targets, though. Be it between party members needing a cleanse or heal or raise, or between enemies when it comes to Provoke. The only learning curve a controller user would have is when they start playing. I’ve played this game on controller since I started, and a lot of the “controller excuses” people come up with just aren’t applicable in the way they’re trying to make them applicable. Or even true.

You can’t mouse over to read debuff descriptions, but outside of a few fringe cases, that isn’t entirely necessary.

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As a healer, I never ever had an issue using Esuna. Its quick and fast. Now if your DPSing the entire time and low on MP thats a problem. However the WM also has the ability for MP quick regain which works great even though there is a cool down. I found it easier to Heal using a controller then to tank with a controller. In fact Esuna is so simple to use thats why I have been confused why people do not like using Esuna more.

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Esuna issues come from a combination of most debuffs being inconsequential in terms of whether or not they’re cleansed—with the exception of something like Doom, most can be powered through with HoTs or a shield. Another issue is the fact that many debuffs at the higher levels are not cleansable, and players end up not knowing the difference between what can’t be cleansed and what can be. As I stated previously, the little bar they added is not that noticeable on the HUD, and much could be done to improve the visibility of it. Likewise, the game also does not understand the meaning, and I’ve met several healers that had no idea it indicated anything. The only reason I know what it means is because I read the patch notes and it was talked about in there.

Despite the harsh critiques, don’t get discouraged.
Holy Shelton is really really good now and you need to be using it each pull.
On bosses too make sure you don’t stay topped off on oath. Use it whenever it’s full.
If you do that and make sure you get in 4 holy spirits during your requiscat, you should find yourself staying high on health during boss fights.
During bosses save your ramparts and sentinels to double up protection against tank busters with Shelton. Sheltron+Rampart, Sheltron+Sentinel respectively, and tank buster will only tickle.
Help out against raid wide nukes with divine veil and reprisal.
When you get the hang of this you can practically carry any group, don’t worry

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Not excusing anything, but the game could do a better job at teaching about dispels. I know they added the blue line above cleansable debuffs in ShB (I believe), but the game never explains what the line means. It’s also not as noticeable as it could be. I’ve seen third-party plugins that actually highlight player names and/or place an icon above their character model that indicates they need a cleanse. I know SE doesn’t like the evil add-ons, but something like that might be beneficial in the future. Maybe something for them to think about.

Regarding Doom, there are two kinds in FFXIV: heal to full Dooms and Esuna Dooms. The game does a poor job of really teaching which is which. Even with the new cleansable line, I’ve caught healers in Dun Scaith attempting to heal to cleanse Deathgaze Hollow’s Doom versus using Esuna—and seen them try to Esuna the Doom in Wanderer’s Palace HM versus healing to full. Maybe different icons would help with this. However, the Wanderer’s Palace boss gives you a clue that the debuff is a heal to full mechanic, but people don’t always pay attention to dialogue boxes.

Dead Ends is also a new kind of Doom debuff that differs from the standard Doom.

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Dead ends has both kinds of doom. Ra-la has the heal to full doom.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

If you're straight up blaming others for your own faults, expect to be called out for it.

You aren't using "such and such". You're missing half your toolkit. It's just fact. That in itself is fine, if I see a new player making mistakes but with the right attitude that's no problem. But your attitude is terrible.

You attacked healers for not healing you. It turned out to be your gameplay. Just learn from it, maybe post a thread and ask for tips on being a better tank. Practice your mitigation. Read a guide or two on your rotation. People will respect you more and be happy to help. It'll mean you end up contributing more to your team and your runs will feel smoother overall. Win-win really.

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So wait, when you post something and asking me or accusing me of something you are going to go into every other thread as if I answered when I did not and claim because you asked the question it means I answered when I didn't?

I never responded to you, you do not know what I have been using. The only reason why I am responding now because find it a little insane.

So using your logic, I am going to ask you if you are a toad and because I asked I will now insist you somehow responded to something you never responded to.

Dead Ends is fine, there's no need for tuning it down.

I have 0 problems running it as tank or healer.

Just remember Reprisal and Arm's Length are also mitigation tools on top of the other 3 or so you have.

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Originally Posted by Imora

Dead ends has both kinds of doom. Ra-la has the heal to full doom.

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Yes. But the first boss one is a completely new debuff. I believe it’s called “Necrosis”, but it’s a cleanse Doom. That’s the one I was referring to. Not Ra-la’s.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Yes. But the first boss one is a completely new debuff. I believe it’s called “Necrosis”, but it’s a cleanse Doom. That’s the one I was referring to. Not Ra-la’s.

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Ah I see. Necrosis sounds more like a healing taken down debuff Ala wows mortal strike, to be fair.

Could see where folks would get confused, but it shows as dispellable so I don't understand why people don't just esuna it off.

The only things I don't esuna are low stacks of stacking poison.

And I'm on controller. I wouldn't say most do, but I'm betting the number of controller users is higher than people think solely because of consoles.

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Originally Posted by Imora

Ah I see. Necrosis sounds more like a healing taken down debuff Ala wows mortal strike, to be fair.

Could see where folks would get confused, but it shows as dispellable so I don't understand why people don't just esuna it off.

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And I reiterate my previous point: the game never explains what the white line over cleansable debuffs even means. While you can argue they should have tried to Esuna regardless, it’s also not abundantly clear what that line indicates. I’ve met quite a few people just spamming Dun Scaith the last couple of weeks who didn’t know what the line meant when I explained Deathgaze’s Dooms need to be Esuna’d, as indicated by the white line over it. The game could do a much better job teaching about it. Or about making debuffs threatening enough to cleanse in the first place (barring fringe cases such as Doom).

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And I'm on controller. I wouldn't say most do, but I'm betting the number of controller users is higher than people think solely because of consoles.

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Controller shouldn’t impact cleansing though. It isn’t hard to switch between targets on a controller.

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Originally Posted by Imora

Ah I see. Necrosis sounds more like a healing taken down debuff Ala wows mortal strike, to be fair.

Could see where folks would get confused, but it shows as dispellable so I don't understand why people don't just esuna it off.

The only things I don't esuna are low stacks of stacking poison.

And I'm on controller. I wouldn't say most do, but I'm betting the number of controller users is higher than people think solely because of consoles.

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I'm a way new whm/healer but I had no idea debuffs could show as dispellable lol. I knew doom could be esuna'd because I was told in Dun Scaith, it was never very clear otherwise. Otherwise the only thing I've esuna was silences

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Controller shouldn’t impact cleansing though. It isn’t hard to switch between targets on a controller.

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It doesn't.

People just don't do it for some reason even after being asked to.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

I'm a way new whm/healer but I had no idea debuffs could show as dispellable lol. I knew doom could be esuna'd because I was told in Dun Scaith, it was never very clear otherwise. Otherwise the only thing I've esuna was silences

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They could teach it in the training stuff, or a pop-up window when you get the spell, like when your job gauge shows up.

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Originally Posted by Imora

It doesn't.

People just don't do it for some reason even after being asked to.

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I’m sure there’s also keyboard+mouse people who do this. That’s just called laziness. Doesn’t have much to do with what control setup one uses.

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Originally Posted by Imora

Ah I see. Necrosis sounds more like a healing taken down debuff Ala wows mortal strike, to be fair.

Could see where folks would get confused, but it shows as dispellable so I don't understand why people don't just esuna it off.

The only things I don't esuna are low stacks of stacking poison.

And I'm on controller. I wouldn't say most do, but I'm betting the number of controller users is higher than people think solely because of consoles.

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It gets technical but a lot of esuna-able effects aren’t worth removing as healer oGCDs start piling up.
In Dead Ends like every healer has enough ogcd healing with 60s or less cooldowns that basically most removable effects can be ignored

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Originally Posted by DanielNegreanu_Adamantoise

It gets technical but a lot of esuna-able effects aren’t worth removing as healer oGCDs start piling up.
In Dead Ends like every healer has enough ogcd healing with 60s or less cooldowns that basically most removable effects can be ignored

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Just do not let this become getting "forgetful" about it as something that can be done. You know eventually there will be an absolutely DEADLY esunable effect as a major mechanic.

Nah, dead ends is fine since 99% of the time, they are competent given they actually reached 90. You also have your full sustain kit available. The two that I find painful as a tank are Silent Vigil and Sunken Temple of Qarn. You know, the ones where you get healers that think they don’t ever need to heal or jobs who haven’t bothered to do their level 30 class quest yet? I just pull one pack at a time in those anymore and there is still a 50% chance of dying on a single pack even though I blow every single cooldown. I wish you could strangle healers remotely.

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Originally Posted by Roflcopter

they are competent given they actually reached 90.

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This is a rather optimistic statement. Leveling from 1-90 nowadays consists of just doing the MSQ which is the gameplay equivalent of watching a popcorn flick.

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Originally Posted by Imora

They could teach it in the training stuff, or a pop-up window when you get the spell, like when your job gauge shows up.

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They need to do 3 things if they want this to be "a thing."

You mentioned 1, they need to teach people that those debuffs can be dispelled

Second, they have to be worth dispelling. I suggested making Esuna an instacast OGCD AND have the healer get MP back or something from successfully cleansing something. Then, there's no (very little) reason not to just cleanse everything that comes up.

Last, and most importantly, it needs to be something that the healer does frequently. Stuff you HAVE to cleanse can't be used every other expansion in normal content because healers will just forget about it. Rewarding people for cleansing stuff will fix this, but if you don't reward people for it and most of the time cleansing isn't worth it, whenever there IS something that NEEDS to be cleansed, the healer is going to overlook it.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

I'm a way new whm/healer but I had no idea debuffs could show as dispellable lol. I knew doom could be esuna'd because I was told in Dun Scaith, it was never very clear otherwise. Otherwise the only thing I've esuna was silences

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Some of the things are not spelled out thankfully as a new healer you're going to get increased healing with patch 6.1.

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

Some of the things are not spelled out thankfully as a new healer you're going to get increased healing with patch 6.1.

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They didn’t buff any healing aspects outside of WHM Lilies now generate one every 20 seconds instead of 30 seconds, and Soteria now has 4 stacks with 70% increase versus 50%. Potencies for basic heals and other oGCDs are still the same. Most 6.1 adjustments for healers were reduced MP costs.

That dungeon is hard, 1st boss and last boss kill me, but I'm still learning, so in time I should get it down, but it's harder then Smileton or that other dungeon in expert roulette.

There is also another issue that sometimes plagues this dungeon - Necrosis not appearing on players 'at the front of the buff/debuff line', as it's supposed to be doing. I brought this up a while back in another post, and I had to expand the default setting from 5 to 10 on showing the buffs/debuffs next to each players' name in the party window.

Apparently, this is due to lag which I didn't know would be a thing affecting the buffs/debuffs and the icon was showing up at the end of that line, which if you have your settings at default, you wouldn't even see it at all which was my issue.

It sucks running it with so many buffs on everyone so I can see Necrosis, but at least now I can see it if it's not showing up at the front of the line. I do DPS this dungeon as a healer, but I also know when it's time to stop DPSing and deal with the people who now just seem to ignore the mechanics of the first boss and stand in stupid. Sometimes, yes, I do let them die from it if I am seeing that pattern. I've even not raised people because they consistently do that and will even stand in bad with a dorito on their head away from everyone else. Not worth my time if you keep doing that and not worth the party's time of trying to save someone from it. If they are learning the place, I totally get that and I explain it to them. Not everyone picks up on where to stand when the wind blows there. ;) But, if you are doing it because you are just being a douche, there's nothing I can say or do but let you die from it.

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Originally Posted by VictorTheed

That dungeon is hard, 1st boss and last boss kill me, but I'm still learning, so in time I should get it down, but it's harder then Smileton or that other dungeon in expert roulette.

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On that first boss, you stand at the head of the wind to help avoid Necrosis. For instance, if the wind along the ground blows from the entrance of the boss arena, run to the entrance gate and watch for those balls of light around the edge. To the left or right of the gate is a spot to stand and you can avoid the AoE altogether. The second time it comes around, you have to stand directly in front of the boss at the head of the wind as well, and move to the spot behind you that's open, to the left or right of the entrance/exit gates of the arena.

On the last boss, I see a lot of tanks chasing the boss around the arena when the boss does a Prance. Best not to do that and instead go stand along the outer edge of the first prance circle where the boss will jump to on its third or four prance, so you can move when the first circle disappears and you don't get vulned/die. You can still do ranged damage until you can figure out how best to move with the boss if you choose to do so.

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

Some of the things are not spelled out thankfully as a new healer you're going to get increased healing with patch 6.1.

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You don't even need increased healing to begin with lol & like HyoMin said that was not the focus of the buffs at all.

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

Some of the things are not spelled out thankfully as a new healer you're going to get increased healing with patch 6.1.

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No, not really. MP costs were reduced across the board and any 'increased healing' is dismal at best, none of 6.1 really is 'helping' healers. I don't have an MP issue healing - I have MP issues DPSing so much because it's such a negated job.

In the OP's defense, Dead Ends is waaaaaay more difficult than the other two Expert Dungeons.

Personally, I like that about Dead Ends. It feels challenging as a tank. Honestly though, when it comes to the tank dying there's a fairly easy to guestimate fault: if the tank's HP is going down unusually fast for the situation, then it's on the tank. If the tank's HP is going up unusually slow, then you can put some of the fault on the healer.

But it's still the tank's responsibility to account for that, to slow down if the healer is struggling beyond your ability to help them (excluding wacky stuff like the healer pulling and rescuing you into mobs or whatever).

That said--Esuna, Arm's Length, Addle, Feint. ALL of these abilities need more love from its players.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

They didn’t buff any healing aspects outside of WHM Lilies now generate one every 20 seconds instead of 30 seconds, and Soteria now has 4 stacks with 70% increase versus 50%. Potencies for basic heals and other oGCDs are still the same. Most 6.1 adjustments for healers were reduced MP costs.

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Reduced MP costs that didn't apply to healers at lv 90.
Note the specific changes are:
Stone, Stone II, Stone IV, Aero, Aero II, Ruin, Bio, Bio II.

It's not Glare, Dia, Broil IV, or Biolysis.
So MP outside of Lv 80+ content is more or less unchanged. WHM gets a bit more MP now that their lilies is worth using and generate faster.

Speaking of changes though, Aero II costs 200 MP but does the same amount of damage as Dia now. So... Dia is just 200 MP more expensive than Aero II. WHM's Lv 72 DoT is a downgrade.

Just let that sink in.

I think this is a you problem my dude. Or whoever the healer is too. I have no more issues healing or tanking Dead Ends than the other two. Sure, sometimes people die on the first boss if the healer is zoning out. But thats the healer's problem. Dont let them blame you.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Speaking of changes though, Aero II costs 200 MP but does the same amount of damage as Dia now. So... Dia is just 200 MP more expensive than Aero II. WHM's Lv 72 DoT is a downgrade.

Just let that sink in.

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Did you expect them to actually take 2 seconds to think about their healer changes? Hahahaha, as if.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Speaking of changes though, Aero II costs 200 MP but does the same amount of damage as Dia now. So... Dia is just 200 MP more expensive than Aero II. WHM's Lv 72 DoT is a downgrade.

Just let that sink in.

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Nah, it's a cooler animation. You don't get cooler animations for free.

Seriously? This is a problem?

Dungeons have been face roll easy for nearly a decade. I was happy when they started adding Hard Mode dungeons, but depressed when they stopped adding them after Stormblood. Shadowbringers and Endwalker seem to have the exact same dungeon cadence. This also shows in the difficulty as well.

Dungeons are strictly a story experience sadly. When I can steam roll through any dungeon with bloodwhetting on cooldown, and SE still hasn't changed how it works tells me something.

Dungeons are supposed to be face roll. They are the lowest rung on the ladder for the barrier for entry to the game. When I started getting into extremes nearly laser focused in Shadowbringers...you start to see that those skills that made dungeons trivial...are downright nearly useless in a 1v1 situation. Even more so when I started endwalkers 1st savage tier. You think dungeons are hard????? Try Flames of Asphadelos in P3S....that is a "Test of your reflexes!"

This makes me glad criterion dungeons are on the way, and hopefully....HOPEFULLY they can give me that challenge I have been craving in dungeons.

If dungeons are hard....great. Try getting better? Maybe read a job guide?

If dungeons are easy...great. Try extremes, savage, ultimate, unreal. The game does NOT tell you "Wow that dungeon was easy....try this other stuff that may be more your challenge."

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

They didn’t buff any healing aspects outside of WHM Lilies now generate one every 20 seconds instead of 30 seconds, and Soteria now has 4 stacks with 70% increase versus 50%. Potencies for basic heals and other oGCDs are still the same. Most 6.1 adjustments for healers were reduced MP costs.

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Oh I loved playing my White Mage after the patch the healing is awesome. I don't care about the DPS as a Healer like you people so yeah the patch was great.

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

Oh I loved playing my White Mage after the patch the healing is awesome. I don't care about the DPS as a Healer like you people so yeah the patch was great.

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I have been asking for YEARS that tanks take more damage in dungeons.....years. Then healers would actually sweat and not need to DPS.

But again. Dungeons are not the stage for HIGH RISK HIGH REWARD for playing perfect. It's designed to be easy so that you can enjoy the story. Healers seem to sweat pretty good in P3S or AST during Pinax in P4S

Dead End is a problem? Are we even playing the same game? This dungeon is still considered MSQ dungeon and the difficulty is already passable if not in the lower bar already, stop asking them to make it easier than this

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

Oh I loved playing my White Mage after the patch the healing is awesome. I don't care about the DPS as a Healer like you people so yeah the patch was great.

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The healing wasn’t changed my dude. 0/10 response score.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

I have been asking for YEARS that tanks take more damage in dungeons.....years. Then healers would actually sweat and not need to DPS.

But again. Dungeons are not the stage for HIGH RISK HIGH REWARD for playing perfect. It's designed to be easy so that you can enjoy the story. Healers seem to sweat pretty good in P3S or AST during Pinax in P4S

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Not decent healers. They still deal damage the majority of the time in both.

While I dislike my ilvl being forced down, and the fact that Ra-la starts using prance whenever my gnashing fang combo comes up, I wouldn't really call the dungeon "brutal". More like, "annoying". I kind of wish it'd been cycled out of expert roulette.

I might be blind, but I have read the OP multiple times, and I still don't understand the problem?

I have never had any issues with this dungeon as either tank or healer. people might die to the first boss,but I have never seen anyone blaming the tank.
Even if they blame the tank, whats the issue? they are clearly in the wrong, so just tell them to stop dying and learn the mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Gullis

I might be blind, but I have read the OP multiple times, and I still don't understand the problem?

I have never had any issues with this dungeon as either tank or healer. people might die to the first boss,but I have never seen anyone blaming the tank.
Even if they blame the tank, whats the issue? they are clearly in the wrong, so just tell them to stop dying and learn the mechanics.

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OP basically no interested learning mechanics.. or it is what I understand.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Let's just say I have a "feeling" that the OP doesn't use Holy Spirit, Holy Circle, Arms Length, Reprisal, Goring Blade, Fight or Flight or Low Blow at all, mostly ignores Intervene and maybe uses 2-3 Rampart and Sentinel per Expert.

Just a "hunch".

I'm sure it's those evil dps healers really.

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Well, that or the dps was so horrible that using every mit on planet earth aint going to save you. I've been in two of those and the moment I had to finally blow holmgang, I sort of said to myself "are these dps even using a single OGCD?" I mean, the gear caps at 570 in there. Even the NPCs in the trusts felt like they did more.