With this or any game, people will be people, you can make all kind of changes but you will have one group who likes it, one group who dont and the middle ones that is 50 50 on it. All in all people are playing a game for how they enjoy it not for the enjoyment of others unless maybe family or friend but for sure not strangers.
I dont believe it has to do with people being lazy or having no skill. I can rant forever how i want stormblood ast back and it wont happen but for those that still play ast now still loves it I cant be upset at them for it can I?
Ast was so much more tactical and fun for me in stormblood now to me it does feel like a lazy more slightly better whm. it totally lost its lure even though its still in the good ratings and I simply just moved on to sage. Not arguing or anything just being general =)
Honest question for people dissatisfied with WHM:
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03-30-2022, 11:55 PMIceBlueNinja
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03-31-2022, 12:33 AMSilver-StriderYeah but there wasn't a 100 page thread titled "Have you quit healing" in ARR or HW. That trend only started in SB when they started pruning skills (or in WHM's case by being shafted by the lackluster Lily System).Quote:
Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja
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03-31-2022, 01:12 AMDhalyaPlease just stop bringing up FFXIV terrible leveling experience and imbalance of jobs at low level as arguments of difficulty -.- Yes I have no idea why Sage gets aoe skill at lvl 26, why AST gets lightspeed and essential so early while WHM doesn't get anything. Many great jobs just feel broken on low level thats not the issue of WHM specifically they just cba to address the old jobs globally.Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaShino
That's kinda out of context since WHM has some things no other healer can pull off without planning needed, like Benediction or plenary+cure 3Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaShino
I disagree, swiftcast, blood lily, lily heals are better than AST's swiftcast and asp benefic (lightspeed is for reopener only, macro for adds/intense healing)Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaShino
True, but that was only introduced in 6.0 and will most likely soon be patched.Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaShino
True for Endwalker, because they destroyed WHM. Before that it was just the best healer for comfortable prog, it used to have zero mana issues, no micromanagement like AST or SCH, just straight forward glare spam with occasional heal, maybe mapping out instacasts to move.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
Thb I don't think this EW iteration of WHM will stay unchanged for long, there are way too many complaints. -
03-31-2022, 01:23 AMSemirhageI mean, WHM was just as horribly designed in Shadowbringers; the only thing they changed was nerfing Thin Air. Glare spam is a snorefest. The only reason someone would want to keep Glarespam as its "identity" is to make it the designated crap healer you graduate away from once you want actual engagement or strength.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhalya
I'll reiterate what I've said elsewhere: this type of balance works on DPS casters. Where the "simple" one does the most damage, and the more utility-heavy ones deal less personal damage in exchange for their utility. The only major difference is that BLM is simple in goal, but requires finesse in execution. WHM is both simple in goal and execution, hence the constant bewilderment around here whenever WHM trips and falls its way to the top of the damage charts. "It can't do the most damage. I do more work than a WHM for less output! Rebalance, rebalance!" cries the healer subforum.
So riddle me this. If WHM isn't allowed to have utility, and isn't allowed to manage anything aside from boring Glare spamming and boring Cure spamming because anything more ruins its identity of being boring and terrible, then it's....what? Just last place intentionally? What's it supposed to be good at? "Giving fast queues and clearing content on easymode" isn't an identity. -
03-31-2022, 01:28 AMIceBlueNinjaah not sure friend i started coming to forums on shadow bringers xd but ye i did hear my whm friends mainers complain on lily and plenary i did main whm but drop it when i got the grasp of ast in stormblood. It seems after storm blood even tanks too kind lost some of their lore, god when they had 2 stances and ninja i think did too from a friend who use to main nin. guess not only healer got some punch down others did too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
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03-31-2022, 01:30 AMIceBlueNinjaknow what is lame is whm and ast story mentioning old non existance skills, poor sprouts must be like umm whats time dilation, fluid aura etc lol. Please se at least make their story sensibleQuote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
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03-31-2022, 02:16 AMDhalyaIndeed...Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
it could be anything
a) Easiest and straight-forward healer having strong and easy to use heals, mitigation and also a very simple dps rotation for people that just want to relax and focus on mechanics. This should mean no mana issues but also no top DPS!
b) Top personal DPS with more sophisticated DPS rotation sacrificing healing power/mitig/raid buffs (something like black mage among healers, I guess this sounds the most fun but doesn't really fit with 'white mage' aesthetic)
c) something more balanced with fun GCD rotation like Dancer, often procs some oGCD light damage or light heals, maybe often results in overheal (just like Sage) but it doesn't sacrifice damage so noone cares
Right now it's just a broken job, nothing more. Giving it top DPS for just half-asleep glare spam wouldn't seem fair to me. -
03-31-2022, 02:30 AMRein_eon_Osborne
Creating dominant strategy environment as a side effect of WHM being forced into being "braindead simple, and therefore should not be the best" is just plain dumb. If people want dummy job for healer they should've turn to CNJ for that and expand WHM's gameplay.
Strengths and weaknesses can be fun to play around & optimize if every single job in said role has them. Right now, it's anything but that. WHM vs AST is the most glaring of all. It's not fun when WHM is known for being "the healer that heals massively" but AST heals just as much (or even more) + boost their party. Oh really, 'big heals'? More like big fat lies. -
03-31-2022, 02:40 AMSilver-StriderSB Lilies stayed that way for the entire expansion so the likelihood of WHM staying the way it currently is is pretty damn high. The most we'll see are potency/cost adjustments but that won't change how flawed WHM is from the ground up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhalya
No one here is asking for WHM to be the top DPS healer. We're asking for a rework for WHM entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhalya
I want the leveling experience to be better. I want old, removed skills like Stoneskin and Divine Seal to make a return as low level versions of our current toolkit so that we can properly teach new WHMs how to utilize their toolkits sooner rather than later. SE already set this as a precedence with the rework MNK and BLM got, so WHM can get similar treatment, especially since WHM has a lot of removed skills that easily parallel their current toolkits that it shouldn't even be that hard. Divine Seal is literally the same as Temperance so making it a low level version of it should take no effort at all other than some coding since both the animation and icon for Divine Seal should still be in the game's code. Stoneskin just needs to be turned into an oGCD and it would be the same as Divine Benison. There was a PvP version of Protect that worked almost exactly the same as Aqua Veil as a single target defense buff with a short duration so make that available in PvE as a low level Aqua Veil and you give WHM a much better foundation to work off of.
From there, we can improve how the toolkit interacts with itself. Procs like BLM's Thundercloud could absolutely work on WHM if we have it work on our Regen and Medica 2 so that good Regen uptime rewards the WHM with more damage and better MP sustain. The Lily System could proc an oGCD skill like GNB's Continuation Combo, which would grant the weave windows that Lilies grant some more purpose since the cast time changes in EW kind of robbed them of their purpose as a mobility tool and with Regen granting hypothetical "Diacloud" procs, Lilies would need something of equal value to be worth it so making Misery DPS neutral via these oGCDs would be perfect to both expand WHM's gameplay as well as solve the problems of the current Lily system being a DPS loss to utilize.
These changes alone would do wonders for WHM as you resolve several key complaints about the job while adding mild levels of complexity that don't detract from being a straight forward healer. It might not have the highest DPS out of the healers but if it's fun to play, it doesn't really matter. -
03-31-2022, 07:07 AMMiaShinoUmm why? You said was beginner friendly last time I, wait one moment let me check. Oh, right! You do not start game at level 90. Huh strange. My point stands, White Mage struggle busses through content and that only grows worse as the level increases. It being "beginner friendly" is a trap and excuse devs continue making to keep making nonsense decisions about the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhalya
Ohhhh by the twelve. Sooo cure 3 is 600 potency (after trait) boosted by indulgence 200 potency with 6 yalm range. Total potency = 800. Zoe boosted Pneuma potency = 900 with a 20 yalm radius and it procs Kardia while hitting for 330 potency making it deeps neutral. Sure sure you cannot spam it but why would you even spam cure 3? Just Glare > Indulgence > Glare > Lilybell > Glare > Temperance > Rapture. Heck, Swift/Dot refresh and double weave some of this why not. Bene is great at most levels, best with tank invuln, saving unlucky player, or post raise. You know what else is great? Two charges of essential dignity on 45 second timer. Macrocosmose curing two instances of Living Dead simultaneously. Scholar can dump out 3600 potency in Lustrates alone not even mentioning recitating indom or excog. Oh joy I can restore full hp for one person every three minutes.. yay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhalya
What are we speaking of here? Farming with a static because I was making general comment about average White Mage issues in all content. Swift is for raise unless group is decent then it is for movement/weaving. Blood Lily is dps negative.. Sure you can use for movement but that is one charge every three lillies expended. Aspected Benefic vs Lilies? Wat? When am I using Aspected Benefic for movement? Is that what is being implied am confused? Not being mean here. Lightspeed for intense healing? Why? It does not make you heal faster because it does not reduce re-cast time only cast time. Same number of heals per second with or without lightspeed.. However Astrodyne could accomplish this if you really really must gcd heal. Only time Astro is leaning on gcd heals should be low level play or pre-pull/downtime neutral sect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhalya
Ohhhh I sure fricken hope so! Will believe when I see it because right now I am pressing X most furiously. However it is bad right now and we are talking about right now not hypothetical future changes. Running out of mana because you do not get any MP management skills beyond Lucid until 56 - 58 is bad design. It is the antithesis of newbie friendly. Thin Air opposes the current ogcd heavy design anyways. Two free raises? 800 MP of Glare? The heck does Square think you use this skill on? Probably Medica 2/Cure 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhalya
Unsure what the purpose of this reply was if there is to be honesty. If anything it only further re-enforced why White Mage is anything but beginner friendly. From Sastasha to P4S you are knee capping yourself by playing White Mage and saddest thing about it, you have no clue how much better the other healers have it until you play them.
Since you mentioned comfortable progging and re-openers, how the devil is Savage prog and re-openers beginner anything..? I am the confused.
The job is one hot mess right now with design that runs counter to what appears to be intended play style. Never even mentioned Aquaveil. 15% mitigation for eight seconds and I put this on who? The tank? Save a dps with it? You get this thing at level 86 by this juncture tanks or so broken stoopid overpowered. Might be good during big pull if only you could use it without clipping Holy.
If anyone likes White Mage that is okay. It was my main for some time, friends really enjoy it. That doth not mean it does not need Jesus. My brain hurts. -
03-31-2022, 08:35 AMFaafetaiThis honestly killed me, the ziggers in your post >.< I love thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Rilifane
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03-31-2022, 08:46 AMElysiumDragon
I think there's space for WHM to bring more raw DPS to the table, maybe by having a more complex DPS rotation. If it's going to be a fairly simple job in terms of healing, a more complex DPS rotation wouldn't hurt, and ultimately allows for both beginner-friendly gameplay, as well as hyper-optimization for veteran WHM players.
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03-31-2022, 11:17 AMHaadrakThe thing is, most people I've seen aren't even asking for more DPS, they're just asking for the DPS they currently have to require more than 2111111111111111111111111111... oh no my 1 key broke hang on guys gotta rebind... 23333333333333333333Quote:
Originally Posted by ElysiumDragon
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03-31-2022, 03:06 PMSarim
I doubt that healer DPS will be increased overall. That's why everytime I see people asking for "more buttons to press" I wonder, is that really a good idea? Would it really be more "fun" to have a three step dps combo (like all melee have) that ultimately results in the same DPS output we have now? Do you really want to do more work for the same result?
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03-31-2022, 04:03 PMRein_eon_OsborneHealer DPS need not anymore increase. In fact, healers are doing a bit far too much dps. Two healers in a party can easily outdps a top SAM/MNK/RPR/BLM's dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarim
Honestly if that's all they can come up with? I'd say yes. But it still won't fix all healers' issues, especially the lack of cohesiveness and interactions within their own arsenals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarim
Why do player think doing 1-2-3 on WAR feels better? Because it generates beast gauge which later on can be spent on Fell Cleaves.
Why do player think doing RDM's Dualcast gimmick is fun? Because it generates white/black mana which can lead to many different possibilities instead of just basing every gain from the potencies you read in their dualcasted tooltips.
Then when people start bringing them into raid scene, people can start moving big bursty damage buttons into raidbuff window because that's how they generate the most benefit from each of those resource usage.
Healers got nothing close like that. If anything, it's more and more bloated, unnecessary kits that's designed for an encounter that never existed in this game. They yearn for buttons that holds meaningful decisions. Right now, outside very few windows where scripted damage are coming out (which of course good healers will have mapped their cooldowns accordingly), the only meaningful action they can do is to just break that 1 nuke button that they spend 80% of encounter duration... and hey, it's not even what their role made for! Very inspiring design indeed. -
03-31-2022, 09:33 PMRilifaneBy that logic, why does any job have a proper rotation (except healers, obviously)? It's just more buttons for the same result!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarim
Because in general, people don't want to feel bored by excessively repetitive gameplay. There is a fine line between QoL and consolidating or removing unnecessary buttons (Enochion being a good example) and oversimplifying a job's rotation to the point of repetitive and stale gameplay.
Healer dps overall doesn't need to increase, the role deals a respectable amount of damage. Some healers need a bump, WHM most of all but SGE will also need adjustment if it wants to stay competetive with the increasing power creep. But what healers do need are better downtime options that not only make the average dps rotation less stale but also gives them a proper skill ceiling and room for optimization and meaningful decisions.
On BLM when learning a fight, I'll use Triple, Xeno and Swift liberally for movement. I'm more likely to Sharp my Firedox than my Thunder for even more movement and additional AF refresh. I'll not use Transpose lines as they're generally pretty turret-y. I'll rarely, if ever, let the timer tick down to 1 before the refresh hits. I'll move sooner out of my LL rather than later to be safe with dodging.
The better I know a fight, the more I'll push Triples and Swift into raid buffs, dump all my Xenos during them and shift around my highest potency skills so they catch as many buffs as possible even if it means butt clenching hard while the timer ticks down to 1 before refresh hits, prioritize Thunder for Sharp, incorporate some Transpose lines. I'll try to snapshot that last GCD in LL even if I almost burn off my butt when dodging last second. I'll watch the boss castbar like a hawk to port back into them asap. It's a gradual process that doesn't grow stale even after many weeks of reclears and that always requires focus.
On healer, when learning a fight I'll keep my oGCDs rolling while keeping my dot up, spamming my Glaroileficosis and occasionally trade a 1 for a GCD heal to be safe. The better I know the fight and the better my party performs the less I'll trade a 1 for a GCD heal until that number becomes a 0 and that's pretty much it. SGE can dump their Phlegma under raid buffs which doesn't require any infinity stone brain moves, SCH can minimize AF heal use, strongly depends on their co heal and party mitigation though. WHM can minimize Lilies, same as with SCH minimizing AF. AST can try to catch small bursts with their cards.
It's also guaranteed to get easier with gear. Significantly.
Which heal I use for raidwides rarely makes a difference because they're so far apart that even the difference between regens and burst heals is negligible in most cases. Whether I use a Zoe Pneuma or Physis II after a raidwide almost always leads to the same result: damage healed, everyone healthy enough to survive the next raidwide. -
03-31-2022, 09:41 PMIrenia
When it comes to WHM I've been playing around with the idea with making Lilies damage *positive*, by not only letting it build to misery, but also proc other things that help end the encounter faster.
Shouldn't change much, just that optimization will involve the WHM never capping lilies and using them to heal first over even oGCDs. -
04-01-2022, 12:06 AMLiam_HarperYes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarim
Would dps be just as fun if you turned them into 2-3 buttons. Less work for the same result! -
04-01-2022, 12:10 AMSaffron2357
I would actually be all in in support of damage positive Afflatus Misery. As lillies are designed now, the initial raid buff window could never fit a Misery, but I'd advocate for reducing the cooldown of lillies from 20s to 30s and maybe having some button or another give you an instant blood lily out of combat, ala Monk. There'd definitely be instances of White Mages dumping out lillies on full HP bars just because the 60s window is coming up and they gotta sync it properly, but I think that's fine. Hell, I'd say boost Solace's heal (to about 900?) and give Rapture a little regen to boost its healing too. Move Solace and Rapture to level 30, move Misery to... I'd say 52, but I know a lot of people would want it in ARR, if not at 30 exactly.
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04-01-2022, 12:33 AMDerio
I would like heals that cost lilies to be on OGCD. Slight reduce cost of cure 3. Slightly better MP economy. And hopefully in 7.0 an end to the 1-1-1-1-1-1-1 spam.
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04-01-2022, 02:14 AMNaoki34For me, the problem with WHM is not in its Dps, but in its healing mechanics which have not evolved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonerdo
Until the arrival of the SGE, I really liked WHM, but now I've abandoned it for the Endwalker healer.
From the skill animation to the gameplay, SGE is in every way more fun, for me.
I was expecting gameplay improvement, there is none of that in Endwalker.
And then as the 2nd post says, it's spam a skill and its AoE flashbang equivalent, and some skills under CD. -
04-01-2022, 04:59 AMDhalyaYou are way too vocal for the fact that you hide your main character from forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaShino
WHM is very comfy for dungeons after it gets Holy, WHM is very comfy for prog as it doesn't require nearly as much planning as the other 3 healers that have strong tools but can't just whip them out of nowhere instantly at any time.
I just tried to bring up the fact that WHM also has (or had) some strengths...
Do I like it currently? No.
Have I quit playing it? Yes.
Is it much easier and straight forward than the other 3 healers? From my experience yes. Maybe Sage is almost as easy. -
04-01-2022, 05:02 AMDhalyaThat is literally what was asked at the start of this topic :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
I just tried to give my response while including reasons why I think it would be unfair... Although there still is a high chance they will go the DPS route with WHM, they don't seem to be creative with healers so..Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonerdo
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04-01-2022, 05:28 AMSilver-StriderAnd the answer has been a resounding No because we don't necessarily want more DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhalya
We want Lilies to be DPS neutral just so they aren't punishing to use and kneecapping WHM at higher tiers of play.
We want our MP economy fixed to not be hot garbage.
We want our gameplay to be more than 2111111 spam from level 1-90.
We want our class to be fun.
You can make Glare 5k potency, cost 0 MP and be instant cast but none of that fixes the problem with WHM in that it's an overwhelmingly dull class with numerous issues that stem far beyond just our laughably low DPS numbers. -
04-01-2022, 05:32 AMRika007
Nope no where even close. I've only touched healers enough to get them up to level 90 like i do every job and after that I have completely abandoned the role, because thats exactly what the dev team has done to it as well. I love this game, i love these devs, but without question, healer design is the biggest blight on it, and White Mage is the number one offender of it. I'm tired of supporting it. Once they start treating healers like people that have an actual brain I'll give the role a spin.
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04-01-2022, 07:47 AMSemirhageI've argued against this position since Stormblood. It's been floating around here for a very long time, in various forms. Something like, "WHM is simpler so it's unfair if it does more damage. More complex classes deserve more output for their higher complexity. If they do less for more work, that doesn't make sense".Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhalya
Cool, I get it. So. Let's take that then. WHM does the least damage because it's the easiest to play. So what's it actually good at? I don't mean fake strengths like "has more overhealing", I mean things that actually contribute to parties. Well, let's see. It can't have any buffs, that's not ~simple~ enough. It can't have any utility, that's not ~*simple*~ enough. The only thing it brings to the table is GCD heals (which aren't particularly useful, since every healer brings enough healing to comfortably clear encounters by design, and anyway Astro's are better and have been for years) and boring damage spamming. Which, as argued before, is intentionally the weakest, because it's "not fair".
So now WHM is just the designated crap healer for babies that's intentionally designed to be weaker than the other three. It has lower damage, and doesn't bring anything else to the table. Yay, everyone wins! Except WHM mains.
It's the same reason I always firmly push back against the idea that, hey, why don't we just return all the healers to their Stormblood iteration where everyone was having fun! Oh, WHM sucked back then? Who cares they've always sucked lol, the important part is that AST and SCH mains will have fun again, nobody cares about WHM. -
04-01-2022, 04:50 PMDhalyaWell we can argue about difficulty being a correct metric for DPS output, but if you actually look at current statistics for this savage tier, ordered by rDPS, you can see that SE is actually following this formula:Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
bard > dancer > machinist
black mage > red mage > summoner
You can see that even jobs with amazing support like dancer, bard or red mage outDPS the ones that don't bring much to the table. Why? Because their rotation is very easy and quick to master.
Why would anyone take machinist over bard or dancer? Why would anyone take summoner over red mage? Or even reaper! It currently ranks the last of all melee.
Because the simplicity is often welcome, for prog or just to chill and/or focus on mechanics. An entry level player will probably perform much better pressing whatever on machinist than trying to keep up with dots, songs, procs and many more on bard.
So I think THAT is their goal with WHM even though they failed, I agree with you that currently it doesn't have much except some convenient panic buttons and it needs a boost in some direction. -
04-01-2022, 05:13 PMSemirhage
I think easy to pick up, easy to play with moderate competency, high skill ceiling is the dream I'd have for most jobs. I adamantly disagree with Square's oversimplification crusade. In my pipe dream, the healers all get a good level of nuance and complexity that they approach in different ways. In my nightmare scenario, SCH AST and SGE get buffed (back) up to complex high reward jobs, and WHM remains the ankle height skill ceiling preschooler job that sucks on purpose, and that's what I'd rail against at all turns.
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04-01-2022, 06:31 PMHellebore_Ghrian
It's not about complexity or even dps at all.
In EW, we're at the point where you can play an AST using only its healing gcd and randomly cast its cards/astrodyne only for mp regen and still perfom better than a WHM.
And from my pov, that sentence alone resumes the WHM issues. -
04-01-2022, 09:15 PMSilver-StriderI'd argue DNC is much simpler than MCH because MCH has high APM and is very ping related while DNC is extremely straight forward. Then we have NIN that is dead last on the melee charts despite having a fairly demanding rotation while MNK is simple and is leading in DPS. Difficulty is not a valid metric for balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhalya
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04-03-2022, 02:01 AMGrimoire-M
To be honest the worst part about the DPS simplification on healers is the incentive to ask them to meet you halfway (Just maintain DoTs) got worse.
I don’t care if people screw up if they’re trying and learning in casual content. The demands are low enough. I’ll even use my own tools to make their lives easier and account for my own mistakes. What I can’t stand is being punished for their lack of effort or having my experience made worse to pander to their perceived difficulty with something as basic as wall to wall pulls.
The game isn’t that hard. Just make it fun for a wider range of skill levels. It makes getting that good rewarding. -
04-04-2022, 06:23 AMFaafetai
Something I am unsure has been mentioned and I know this game does not have it at all. Theoretically even if whm did not gain anymore dps buttons. The devs need to entertain the idea that healers are support. This game does not have any crowd control really except for maybe sleep, stun, slow(arms length). This is one huge thing I would honestly be happy with. They kind of do this for whm aoe, for astro's cards(also I swore I read gravity use to heavy), shields and mitigation, Expedient, and Chain Stratagem. Some more thought put in, it does not just need to be extra dps it can be something else to make things more intuitive. I am unsure how others feel about the differences between scholar/sage/astro compared to whm, but the fact you can plan certain things out is a huge deal to me. It doesn't have to be more nuke abilities just something that allows for more of a general thought provoking feel. I have currently gotten to 60 something on whm and so far going from 49 to 50 already feels better and than from there getting assize, asylum, lillies, tetra, it feels better to play already compared. Just more of that would be nice as a start. I can't seem to find it but there was a meme with a whm going into palace of the dead and not wishing to go to the real world because you lose all of your skills that were super fun to play around with.
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04-04-2022, 07:05 AMty_taurusOne issue with this is if you're trying to slow down the rate of DPS usage, you would need to make GCD crowd control/utility. Then you create an odd situation where you need to weigh the value of that CC vs the DPS you're losing by not casting Glare or whatever Glare equivalent spell your job has. For example, if I have a GCD spell that inflicts slow for 15 seconds, is that worth losing DPS potency for? Is the amount of damage I'm preventing going to save me future GCD healing spells thus allowing me to use Glare more in the future? Most likely not. The other option is to create DPS neutral offensive spells that also inflict Debuffs. Once upon a time, that's what Stone, Ruin, and Stella did--inflict damage and Heavy the enemy (though those were a DPS loss). The best way to go about that would be to make those spells the same potency but cost more MP, like what SCH's Ruin II used to be. Or perhaps you could do something like give WHM an Afflatus debuff in a world where Misery is DPS neutral, or likewise have it generate Addersting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Faafetai
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04-04-2022, 07:13 AMBeddictThe game has the following CC:Quote:
Originally Posted by Faafetai
- Stun (Tank, Melee DPS, WHM)
- Interrupt (Tank, Physical Ranged DPS)
- Sleep (Healer, Caster DPS)
- Heavy (Physical Ranged DPS)
- Bind (Physical Ranged DPS)
- Slow (Tanks, Melee DPS, Physical Ranged DPS)
How much of that is used? A single Interrupt on the final boss of the level 87 Dungeon. CC could be effective if there were more adds in fights, maybe something like True Heart in A7S where you could Heavy the add to give DPS more time to kill it and prevent Quickthinx from getting buffed. SE would never actually do that though because they probably don't want parties to feel forced to bring a specific Role. -
04-04-2022, 10:54 PMMiaShinoIf you ever do the big chugus pulls in Heaven on High you can realize just how starved for CC we really are most quickly. There is room with three big stone tablet mobs on later floor that cast interruptible raid wide. Hope you brought three physical ranged or three tanks! That raid wide can wipe everyone on the floor through walls, have seen this occur. :D Would make dungeon pulls far more of the interesting if they were half as threatening as HoH pulls can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beddict
Even more amusing about CC in FF14 land.. Support.
White Mage is only healer with useful CC? We do not get interrupt skill. Only one healer has stun. We did not get upgraded sleep role action yet all caster deeps did? Nothing quite as feist inducing as watching the blinking orange cast bar fill up while I sit there on my support class unable to do anything about it. Here goes Ram's Voice into Dragons Voice, time to eat floor because no one interrupted! -
04-04-2022, 11:58 PMKsenia
It makes no difference to me at this point. My Whm is 90 through MSQ turn in and roulette. I primarily queue on Dnc now.
Whm was thrown under the bus to make Sage look better. Nothing SE can say will make me change my mind on that. I refuse to level Sage because of it and I refuse to play Whm because of it. I have an active FC. Queue times aren't an issue for me and I'm not crawling through the entire expansion on a gimped class.
What can they do? Lock roulette if they want, so I get up to 50, up to 60, up to 70 dungeons in the roulette. Because the Whm still does fine up to that point. I'm 53 years old. I'm not their 'target audience' anymore. They don't give a shit what I do and I don't give a shit what they do. -
04-05-2022, 09:05 AMRinaShinomiyaNah im pretty sure WHM been under the bus for quite some time now. Has nothing to do with SGE releasing. StB WHM was a thing to behold for all the wrong reasons and that expansion didnt get a new healerQuote:
Originally Posted by Ksenia
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04-06-2022, 01:52 AMIceBlueNinjafor sure cause i started as whm and for a so call beginner easy healer going through it was so miserable up to hw where I then bought an ast lvl 60 jump ticket before stoemblood release and been in love with ast since until ew.. ruin it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya
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04-06-2022, 02:14 AMRilifane11111 spam exists from level 1, your core rotation doesn't change from level 4 to 90.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksenia
Imagine starting a dps and knowing at level 4 "This is what I'll do for all eternity". WHM was fine at 60. During HW. When it had a better rotation than 11111. But that time is gone and now it's definitely not fine at level 60.
SB WHM Lilies were the meme gauge of the expansion, they never fixed it during SB and only tried with small "increased proc chance" buffs to make it more interesting which failed hilariously and the advice every WHM got was "ignore your gauge, save UI space" until they finally made them into something more useful with ShB but also gutted every healer to 1 dot, 1 nuke.
ShB made it into a clip mage that had to rely on getting hard-carried by their co heal because its free healing was even lower and more difficult to handle than after the 1,5s cast change.
EW also gutted the only thing that made it a pretty good prog healer: Thin Air. Its job gimmick also got worse because it's a bigger dps loss than before. The capstone ability and its ST skill are both the least flexible. At least the 6.1 change will make Lilybell slightly better for mechanics that don't hit multiple times in quick succession.
SGE had nothing to do with any of it. If anything, SCH suffered from SGE release because SGE got lots of the good stuff that was once unique to SCH and now they'll be unwilling to give it back because another healer already has it.
I'll never get how people can still recommend WHM for beginners. It's pure misery at low levels and the least forgiving healer that only teached bad habits. Once you got the full HW healing kit it's okay for tank healing for a bit until every healer zooms past it when they get their ShB skills and it has to wait until 7freaking6 for a MP free instant Medica. Until then it only has Asylum and Assize as oGCDs. Perfect for ingraining the habit of spamming Medica II into every WHM's brain.Quote:
Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja
Misery is probably just weaponized WHM salt. That's why it's such a big nuke. -
04-06-2022, 02:57 AMRecon1o6tbf i would argue that all healers are pure misery currently. Sage less so if you like gundam but otherwise its as bad as the rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rilifane
A big problem with the game is that it flat out does not make learning basic combat techniques mandatory and/or explain well. Things like ABC, doing damage as a healer, using ogcds in weave windows etc.
A lot of the people i seen tht reccomend whm are people who aren't healers.
If someone asked me for healing reccomendations, I would straight up tell them dont