Increase penalty for people leaving roulettes

It seems like the core issue for this guy mostly Castrum, and we kind of know the answer there that it's mostly a matter of reward as well as length. People don't want castrum when it could've been prae and that's a wasted half an hour and less exp. A six hour penalty is totally too harsh and again, people genuinely do need to leave sometimes. Though they'll prolly be messing with msq roullette anyway come 6.1 and this'll be a nonissue, the fix for players leaving castrum is to make the EXP reward more worth their time, honestly.

The thirty minute penalty works for dungeons and such imo because it's rare a dungeon will take more than 20 minutes, so people choosing to eat the penalty probably have legitimate reason to do so. Personally I'll stick to whatever I get unless something genuinely came up mid dungeon, especially if there's someone new. I once entered an in progress 90 trial where there were only 4 people because the rest left after one wipe - kind of rude of them to leave, they ended up with vote abandon passing and going to try again after. At most I'd argue absolving the penalty after one man eats it could be changed into everyone having to go through the thirty minutes, but six hours is ridiculous

Rofl imagine asking for more penalties when it’s going to be changed regardless. Here’s a novel idea just leave yourself or don’t queue MSQ. Wow!

I would have agreed for more penalties for people leaving the Main Scenario Roulette, but Castrum and Praetorium are getting reworked soon and with that the roulette might just go away so it's kind of irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

If people want to leave an instance, they should have the right to do so without repercussions from the GMs provided nothing shady is going on. The 30 minute penalty is punishment enough, thanks.

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"I should have the right to abandon people to their luck no matter how long they were on queue for this. Fuck their time, I only care about mine and mine only and I should have the right to be an arse to them."

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Originally Posted by Sicno

"I should have the right to abandon people to their luck no matter how long they were on queue for this. Fuck their time, I only care about mine and mine only and I should have the right to be an arse to them."

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My money my sub. :P Harsh but they don't have to care about other people's time especially when it doesn't break the ToS

You’re taking the whole situation personally lol.. yes people have a right to leave and shouldn’t be held hostage regardless of the situation. There’s nothing inherently wrong with leaving a duty, you’re just getting bent out of shape over it. Maybe look inwards and this isn’t just directed at you but the rest of this GCBTW too who have no hobbies but FFXIV. Hilarious really.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

My money my sub. :P Harsh but they don't have to care about other people's time especially when it doesn't break the ToS

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Sorry, but your money isn't paying for 3/7/23 servants to clear the content with you. I doubt you like when people abandon you in your duties when you need them so don't do the same to others.

If I got *permanently banned* for abandoning a duty simply because it's a dungeon I dislike, I'd happily just play another game man, holy halibut.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

If I got *permanently banned* for abandoning a duty simply because it's a dungeon I dislike, I'd happily just play another game man, holy halibut.

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I think someone proposed that strawman at some point in the thread (can't be bothered to check who)
I went and checked, just 1 person randomly proposed a "ban" in the replies but that's excessive. "Harsher penalties" don't have to be THAT harsh. Just add more penalty time if it's a recurrent thing.

But other than that 1 person nobody else is proposing such a thing.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Sorry, but your money isn't paying for 3/7/23 servants to clear the content with you. I doubt you like when people abandon you in your duties when you need them so don't do the same to others.

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Lol ofc I don't, but what am I going to do? I'm not the judge as to deciding on why someone leaves is justified - ofc it sucks and like I said, it's lame when it happens, but thankfully SE has recourse for that: we get new party member(s), they recieve a penalty. I'm ok with that, even if I have to wait 1-3mins for the party to fill back up. I'm not about to force someone to go through an entire dungeon if they don't want to, even if it's simply down to "I hate this dungeon so I wanna leave". They receive consequences, so whatever. You're que'ing into a dungeon with strangers so honestly of course they won't care about your time more than theirs, more often than not.

All I can do is just abide by my own play style - I enjoy the game when I know other people in my party are good and vibing. I don't abandon duties, I try to be courteous and give them heads up on stuff. I've been trying out healer lately and just simply leaving a "hey I'm a new healer pls be gentle" has made my parties 100x more understanding on me being slow. But not everyone enjoys playing that way and that's ok. Some people are more individualistic, some people are not. That's just the way of a MMO

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Originally Posted by Sicno

I doubt you like when people abandon you in your duties when you need them so don't do the same to others.

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I don't get it why ppl make such a big deal out of this, usually u get a replacement within seconds and if the spot does not fill right away just ask ur friends/fc/ls for help...

I personally always leave prea immediatly if I get thrown there via roulette, I won't waste ~50 mins on watching vidoes.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Sorry, but your money isn't paying for 3/7/23 servants to clear the content with you.

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Correct, which is why they're also entitled to leave at any time for any reason.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

I doubt you like when people abandon you in your duties when you need them so don't do the same to others.

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This basically never happens because most people benefit from staying and getting the reward. This problem is largely unique to MSQ roulette, which is going to be phased out in the near future anyway. It's simply not worth levying increased punishments against people who leave duties for legitimate reasons, particularly because leaving is often the right thing to do. Harsher penalties will just incentivize people to try to AFK or sandbag duties even harder if they have something come up IRL.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

Lol ofc I don't, but what am I going to do? I'm not the judge as to deciding on why someone leaves is justified

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Yeah, of course, nobody is saying there can't be reasons why people need to suddenly leave. I said as much myself, have a system where the more times you abandon a duty the bigger the penalty you get each time and to let it slowly decay. If you only need to leave for important reasons every once in a while you don't get a harsh penalty, but if you're the kind of person who keeps leaving when they don't like their roulette then yeah, you should get a bigger penalty.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

ofc it sucks and like I said, it's lame when it happens, but thankfully SE has recourse for that: we get a new party member(s), they recieve a penalty. I'm ok with that, even if I have to wait 1-3mins for the party to fill back up.

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Depending on the role who leaves it could be more than 1-3 mins. There's a reason why your dps queues can take longer than 15 mins.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

I'm not about to force someone to go through an entire dungeon if they don't want to, even if it's simply down to "I hate this dungeon so I wanna leave".

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Nobody pointed a gun at them to queue for a ROULETTE.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

All I can do is just abide by my own play style

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I'm sorry, but I can't endorse a "playstyle" based on abandoning my party just because I'm a little princess who didn't like their lot. This is a game, sure, but think for a moment on the other people playing with you.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Correct, which is why they're also entitled to leave at any time for any reason.

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Correct, but this isn't something that should be endorsed to make. And if the penalty isn't enough to detract them from doing it on a regular basis then it's not detracting enough.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

This basically never happens because most people benefit from staying and getting the reward. This problem is largely unique to MSQ roulette, which is going to be phased out in the near future anyway.

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I get the feeling you've never had a tank bail out in AV and you may be only thinking of MSQ/alliance raid quitters which yes, they get filled in pretty fast.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

It's simply not worth levying increased punishments against people who leave duties for legitimate reasons

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Ok, keep ignoring the part where I say this should be increased the more YOU REPEAT IT, and to LET IT DECAY, so that it doesn't affect people who have legitimate reasons to leave. If for whatever reason you need to quit duties every day for important reasons then maybe you should consider your situation before queueing into duties with other people.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

I get the feeling you've never had a tank bail out in AV and you may be only thinking of MSQ/alliance raid quitters which yes, they get filled in pretty fast.

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I'm genuinely curious just how often & widespread you see these kind of bailing happens... is it even 5 out of 10 times? or 5 out of 50 times? or 5 out of 100 times?

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Originally Posted by Sicno

I'm sorry, but I can't endorse a "playstyle" based on abandoning my party just because I'm a little princess who didn't like their lot. This is a game, sure, but think for a moment on the other people playing with you.

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Meh, I think the penalty is ok where it is. If there was an additional penalty I think the only extension I would be okay with is just having the roulette reward be claimed regardless if they completed or abandoned it. Like LittleImp said above, I think anything harsher (even with the suggestion of having the roulette reward poof) would just encourage even worse behavior and at that point if people wanna leave, just let em go and let them waste for their 30 minutes doing whatever else.

The time it refills is just anecdotal ofc, but I don't think I waited for than maybeee like 3-4 mins max but I guess it's just dependent on the DC and the time of day.

And you do you, man. I just take the road of "who cares go next" because at the end of the day, it's out of my control lol. They don't have to care about other people, that's just how it is, unfortunate as it might be for everyone else and is usually the sentiment with most MMOs. If you don't want to endorse that sort of stuff, invite your friends to mitigate the amount of people that could potentially leave.

And like I said, your play style=/=my play style. People play selfish, all you can do is just accept that when it's not a reportable offense.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

I'm genuinely curious just how often & widespread you see these kind of bailing happens... is it even 5 out of 10 times? or 5 out of 50 times? or 5 out of 100 times?

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I wasn't even aware that people hated AV that much lol. I know ARR dungeons are the worst but I can't recall a time where I had people leave over getting like AV or Halatali. Like maybe once or twice. But tbh, I get it. Wanted to cry internally when I got Dzemael Darkhold for 3 days straight

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Originally Posted by Sicno

I get the feeling you've never had a tank bail out in AV and you may be only thinking of MSQ/alliance raid quitters.

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I have never had to wait more than a few minutes for someone to join, in any duty. Even ARR extremes refill incredibly fast. I spam mentor roulette to work on the mount, with join in progress on, so I get put into partial parties constantly lol.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Ok, keep ignoring the part where I say this should be increased the more YOU REPEAT IT, and to LET IT DECAY, so that it doesn't affect people who have legitimate reasons to leave. If for whatever reason you need to quit duties every day for important reasons then maybe you should consider your situation before queueing into duties with other people.

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Yeah, let me just tell my buddy with chronic illness to simply not play the game. God forbid he ends up leaving two duties in one day to take care of himself.

The existing system is fine. The only content where leave abusing is actually a problem is already being reworked. This just isn't a widespread problem, and certainly doesn't necessitate harming legitimate users in order to chase down the few bad actors that do exist.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

I'm genuinely curious just how often & widespread you see these kind of bailing happens... is it even 5 out of 10 times? or 5 out of 50 times? or 5 out of 100 times?

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In recent times my jobs have been high enough that I don't have to queue for it directly anymore and I usually do my lvling roulettes as a tank, but in the past it was frequent for tanks to leave as soon as they saw it was AV. I can't give numbers, but it was a regular thing.

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Originally Posted by Thi

The key with trusts is they have to be worse than the other players or everyone will use them instead. Right now that is the case here, but just barely because of how bad a sizeable chunk of this games players are.

What will kill the game is if Trusts become decent enough to rival an OKish player.

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Having leveled a lot through trusts, they already a lot better than a lot of dramatic, bad tanks in casual content. As red dps you can pull ahead of Thancred and he'll take all the aggro without some five minute drama. They also AoE too. Some players need to realize they set their bar below trusts and that's their own fault.

Can argue 8/8 trusts are better than many people at the 2nd EW story trial too.

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Originally Posted by technole

Having leveled a lot through trusts, they already a lot better than a lot of dramatic, bad tanks in casual content. As red dps you can pull ahead of Thancred and he'll take all the aggro without some five minute drama. They also AoE too. Some players need to realize they set their bar below trusts and that's their own fault.

Can argue 8/8 trusts are better than many people at the 2nd EW story trial too.

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I set my expectations of other people in duty finder to "worse than trusts" so that I am pleasantly surprised when we clear things in 1/2 the time a trust run would take. And not overly surprised when the BLM/DNC/RPR does single target on wall-to-wall pulls.

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Originally Posted by Ruby_Bloodydusk

It used to just be Castrum but now I just see people leaving rouls left and right.

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Where are you playing that this is happening? Just curious as I have seen like maybe 2 people leave a roulette in the past 6 months, doesn't feel like the apocalypse.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I spam mentor roulette to work on the mount, with join in progress on, so I get put into partial parties constantly lol.

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But... you know... if you got in-progress it was instant to you, not for your party. I'm a mentor too and I've had in-progresses in all ranges of duty time.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Yeah, let me just tell my buddy with chronic illness to simply not play the game. God forbid he ends up leaving two duties in one day to take care of himself.

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Oh, how could I forget the mandatory chronic illness buddy.

Let me tell you a story. A couple of years ago we had my grandpa in bed in really bad shape before he passed away, and he required attention every now and then. I knew my help would be required at certain times, and what did I do? I avoided queueing up for duties when I knew I'd soon have to go help, and afterwards I'd go and do my thing. There were other times where I'd randomly have to go help, and I'd excuse myself to my party to go attend it for a couple of mins and then come back.

Of course I know that people with certain illnesses will have episodes ocurring at any moment without notice and they could take longer. And that sucks. That said... don't you think you're picking a bit too extreme case to justify your "people should be allowed to abandon their party at will" argument?

The 30 minute penalty is fine for a first time offense but they should do what other games have done and implement a scaling penalty based on offenses in a time period. If you leave multiple times in a few day span the penalty keeps increasing, and if you don't abandon for a few days it resets back to the 30 minutes. It's definitely very annoying to have a less popular duty and players, especially mentors, leaving on the first wipe or on loading in. You signed up for a roulette, you said you could do any of the duties on the roulette, and you got one of them. If you can't do certain roulette duties then just don't queue for it. No one is putting a gun to your head and making you queue for them.

Less rewards from the easy content. Fraction of exp from CT

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Originally Posted by Sicno

"I should have the right to abandon people to their luck no matter how long they were on queue for this. Fuck their time, I only care about mine and mine only and I should have the right to be an arse to them."

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This just tells me that you don't understand anyone else's point of view, and that you certainly don't know me. I'm cool with the latter though. You are making quite an assumption here. And we all know what happens when one assumes...

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

This just tells me that you don't understand anyone else's point of view

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Yes I do, doesn't mean I agree.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

and that you certainly don't know me.

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I don't need to know you to respond to what you're saying.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

You are making quite an assumption here. And we all know what happens when one assumes...

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So... do you actually have anything to add beyond "you don't know me"? In case it was misunderstood I was attacking your argument, not you as a person.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

So... do you actually have anything to add beyond "you don't know me"? In case it was misunderstood I was attacking your argument, not you as a person.

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Hard to read intent through text at times, especially when it appears to be an attack aimed at me as a person. Nothing to add to my original post, no. Plenty to add to my response, however. I care about my time, and I care about other peoples' time as well. Time is one of the most valuable resources in MMOs. But I will always defend the right to leave a group if one chooses. The system works just fine as it is. Are there times when it's kind of a jerk move to leave a group? Sure. I'm not arguing that. But it is still within their rights via the ToS, so long as they don't make a habit of it. From what I've heard, leaving regularly (like, many times per day) can be seen as griefing.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

But I will always defend the right to leave a group if one chooses. The system works just fine as it is.

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The thing is it's a bit more complicated than that. When you're doing things with other people it's not a mere matter of "my personal preferences" as if it's the only thing that matters. As if "I take my penalty" is a trading chip you can turn in for a one time chance to screw them and then forget about it. Just as others shouldn't impose their will over you you shouldn't try to impose yours over them unless there's a strong enough reason for it.

But here we're not even talking about disagreements with your party but with not liking the luck the game handed you and punishing your party for it, who did nothing wrong other than to queue by the same time as you did.

If you have "differences of opinion" with your party and you can't reach an agreement then yes, you have every right to take your penalty and leave. Even if I'd personally encourage people to find a middle ground to continue and finish the duty I agree they have a right to take their penalty and leave.

But what we're talking here is "I willingly queued for a roulette but I didn't like the duty so I left my party on their own". That's why we've talked about measures trying to tackle that particular situation and not affecting other, more valid reasons for leaving.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

But what we're talking here is "I willingly queued for a roulette but I didn't like the duty so I left my party on their own". That's why we've talked about measures trying to tackle that particular situation and not affecting other, more valid reasons for leaving.

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That is still their choice and it (the system) should remain the way it is. A 30 minute wait is punishment enough. It really is that simple. They just shouldn't make a habit of it, like I said.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

A 30 minute wait is punishment enough.

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Apparently not, if they just keep doing it without a care in the world.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

They just shouldn't make a habit of it, like I said.

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But they do, and here we are. Btw, criminals just shouldn't comit crimes. (No, I'm not comparing quitting a roulette to crimes, I just want you to see how silly that argument sounds).

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Apparently not, if they just keep doing it without a care in the world.

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Even if they don't like what they get for a roulette they should, ideally, stick around. But they don't have to, nor should they if that is what they choose. As someone who has ran hundreds of CT raids over the years I get it. Their time isn't any more important than anyone else's when it comes to the bigger picture, but they shouldn't be held hostage in an instance either.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

its a game. you press buttons. you control pixels. you destroy other pixels. it ain't that deep.

get a grip.

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Ikr? Why even have a ToS? It's just a game. Just pretty pixels and sound effects, ya know.

Pray forgive my silliness. I am not worthy of such valuable insight.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Their time isn't any more important than anyone else's when it comes to the bigger picture, but they shouldn't be held hostage in an instance either.

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"Held hostage"? Again, nobody pointed a gun at them to queue for a R O U L E T T E. If they want to run something specific nothing stops them from queuing for that directly.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

"Held hostage"? Again, nobody pointed a gun at them to queue for a R O U L E T T E. If they want to run something specific nothing stops them from queuing for that directly.

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They should still have the right to leave the instance if they don't want to run it. The 30 minute penalty is punishment enough. I can keep going with this point all day if you'd like. Well, maybe not all day. The forum post cap would kick in long before that. But I could. lol

People are still complaining about this?

Have to agree with Vahlnir. 30 minutes in penalty is enough. 30 minutes is longer in time than most instances take, meaning the punishment takes longer than it would have if they stayed in the dungeon/trial/insert random roulette.

Not to mention I've left and taken penalty for other reasons. It's never "I don't want to do this" which I'm sure is the case for a lot of people. Emergencies happen. Harassment happens. I shouldn't need to be held hostage because someone can't handle waiting for a new DPS or healer.

What would you rather? People just AFK in the instance? Because that is what will happen, it already happens in mentor roulette and we don't need the issues that plague mentor roulette oozing over to other duties. At the end of the day, you'll still have to wait for the party to fill when you kick them after waiting the 5 minute limit anyway. I would much rather leave when I have an emergency than just AFK and leave my party high and dry, then be locked out of the DF the rest of the day or some other asinine nonsense if I manage to play again that day.

Let's get back to OP though. If the primary problem is Castrum, no need to worry. It'll be gone and turned into a 4 man dungeon soon.

I know people have been leaving castrum in droves, because frankly it's awful and the rewards/effort aren't worthwhile compared to Praetorium. MSQ roulette has its own issues and the devs are looking into fixing it. Changes are coming soon. If you don't know about these check out the last PLL. Personally I'm excited to see what happens to Castrum and Praetorium. Also happy that Ultima is getting his own trial! So much good stuff.

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Originally Posted by Youkulm

Not to mention I've left and taken penalty for other reasons. It's never "I don't want to do this" which I'm sure is the case for a lot of people. Emergencies happen. Harassment happens. I shouldn't need to be held hostage because someone can't handle waiting for a new DPS or healer.

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But what's being discussed is not to increase ALL penalties, just under certain circumstances, trying to tackle the specific issue of roulette quitters. Like doing it often, doing it at the very beginning of the duty, etc. and we've even proposed letting it decay over time to not overpunish those who do it once in a while for an emergency. You don't have emergencies all the time.

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Originally Posted by Youkulm

Let's get back to OP though. If the primary problem is Castrum, no need to worry. It'll be gone and turned into a 4 man dungeon soon.

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OP said "it used to just be Castrum but now I just see people leaving rouls left and right". They mean "it extended to other roulettes now".

Sounds like OP is just having a bad time and luck. I've not had a single person duck out of duty in months, except castrum, and that only happened one time ( near the start of the expansion ). I don't see this being the plague you all seem to think it is.

I am just curious if everyone who is all about "players should have the freedom to leave whenever they want it is their time" also champion the idea the players can play however they want since it is also their time and sub. For instance, who are you to say a healer has to do DPS in roulettes, it's their time and sub fee and if they don't want to DPS they shouldn't have to. Or is it suddenly your time and sub they are wasting and now people should conform to your standards?

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Originally Posted by Youkulm

Sounds like OP is just having a bad time and luck. I've not had a single person duck out of duty in months, except castrum, and that only happened one time ( near the start of the expansion ). I don't see this being the plague you all seem to think it is.

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Not seen a single dropout in alliance in months? Wow girl, go and buy a jumbo cactpot ticket right now.