Yoshi-P...Please listen to your subscribers

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Originally Posted by Petdo

This game not meant to be play like that, it's target casual players, who are able to play mostly on weekend for few hours ( if you remembered about it, Yoshi-p already do some research about time spent on playing each week and that why he know the truth )

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We already have plenty of games that target casual gamers. It shouldn't be a crime to have content for core players who are willing to sacrifice time and effort to get the better stuff.
Now I don't think random drops are the best way to reflect that time and effort, but it does require focus while still giving casual players a chance at getting it.

Here's the overall lesson to be learned though:

They shouldn't have ignored FFXI. Look at Limbus, Assault, Nyzul (original), Einherjar, Dynamis and Abyssea. You get rewarded based purely on having time commited to it, since naturally if something costs 25,000 assault points and you can only get say 4k points with with 4 tags which refreshes every rl day from the time you picked up a tag, it will take at least a few weeks of working on assaults to get that piece of armor, then rinse and repeat and you're getting rewarded for the time you dedicate to an event.

Einherjar you can walk out with 3k+ amps per couple of days, which again will reward you the more you do it given the lockouts. Abyssea handed out gear, but as a new player you had to dedicate a lot of time to build up not only your NPC reputation, but your community reputation as well if you weren't in a dedicated linkshell (no one wants to help an asshole) you can spend 2-4 hours in abyssea and walk out with every NPC armor set or a completed +1 set depending on if you build time before hand or not.

The main issue with XIV, is they're trying to target the casual base even with every end-game event. A lock out timer of 5-15 minutes? You can't honestly expect to get the good shit with that small lockout timer. Even F2P MMOs have longer lockouts than that. I believe a rep even stated due to how much you can spam these dungeons they aren't going to adjust the drop rate, but we all know if they extend the lockout timer...people will complain "they can't play and do what they want on their own accord."

So to be realistic, we only have ourselves (the players) to blame in the long run, because you have people who want to be able to get rewarded for their time commited, then you have those who will throw a bitch fit if they can't spam the dungeon on their free will whenever they want. SE really can't please both lol, especially when if they try to please 1, the other side will cry and say they're focusing on the wrong people.

SE is literally between a rock and hell when it comes to this game and it's player.

So Elexia, please show me where in the ToS I agreed to does it say that I have to sacrifice being able to do content more than 4 times a month in exchange for even a half decent drop rate. Because from everything you say it sounds like it's either one or the other and there's absolutely no middle ground.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

So Elexia, please show me where in the ToS I agreed to does it say that I have to sacrifice being able to do content more than 4 times a month in exchange for even a half decent drop rate.

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Show me where it says you're entitled to everything for doing only 4 minutes of work.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Here's the overall lesson to be learned though:

They shouldn't have ignored FFXI. Look at Limbus, Assault, Nyzul (original), Einherjar, Dynamis and Abyssea. You get rewarded based purely on having time commited to it, since naturally if something costs 25,000 assault points and you can only get say 4k points with with 4 tags which refreshes every rl day from the time you picked up a tag, it will take at least a few weeks of working on assaults to get that piece of armor, then rinse and repeat and you're getting rewarded for the time you dedicate to an event.

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You're right, they shouldn't have. And my guess is, they are trying new things pre 2.0, and the old things they everyone enjoyed will be in 2.0, along with the improved new additions.

I was just talking with a friend about how they totally skipped over chocobo raising, they had a very nice system, yet didn't even try to implement it. Not to mention the other things.

At the same time, we have to let them make this game there own. Like I said a second ago, mix the old with the new.


On another note, this game never had to be just for the casual or just for the hardcore, it just has to be a great mixture of both. The devs still have a lot of refining to do. But I trust them.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

So Elexia, please show me where in the ToS I agreed to does it say that I have to sacrifice being able to do content more than 4 times a month in exchange for even a half decent drop rate. Because from everything you say it sounds like it's either one or the other and there's absolutely no middle ground.

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I believe it was Rukii who passed along the info regarding low refresh timers on dungeons is why they're not adjusting the drop rates of dark light gear -- You don't need to "sacrifice" as you put it but if you've played MMOs a lot before XIV you should realize those who can and will dedicate a lot of time to something are usually the ones rewarded most.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Show me where it says you're entitled to everything for doing only 4 minutes of work.

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Again, you make it seem like it's one way or the other and that your way is the only right way.

So please, get off your high horse and answer my question. Why can there not be middle ground?

A little note to add....

I don't really think lockout will work in this game to the extent it worked in ffxi. It worked in FFXI cause endgame was horizontal for a long period of time. So during one events cool down you could go do another event and vice-versa. Since we will apparently have a more lateral type of experience I'd expect lockout's to be drastically reduced.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

I believe it was Rukii who passed along the info regarding low refresh timers on dungeons is why they're not adjusting the drop rates of dark light gear -- You don't need to "sacrifice" as you put it but if you've played MMOs a lot before XIV you should realize those who can and will dedicate a lot of time to something are usually the ones rewarded most.

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And I'm not saying there should be 100% drops with a 15 second re-entry. I want to know why everyone seems to think you can't have decent drop rates on something unless it's something you can only do a handful of times every month.

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Originally Posted by Daku_Naito

You're right, they shouldn't have. And my guess is, they are trying new things pre 2.0, and the old things they everyone enjoyed will be in 2.0, along with the improved new additions.

I was just talking with a friend about how they totally skipped over chocobo raising, they had a very nice system, yet didn't even try to implement it. Not to mention the other things.

At the same time, we have to let them make this game there own. Like I said a second ago, mix the old with the new.


On another note, this game never had to be just for the casual or just for the hardcore, it just has to be a great mixture of both. The devs still have a lot of refining to do. But I trust them.

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Which is why we're pretty much stuck till 2.0, the only problem people had with raising in VII and XI was the fact it took a lot of time to do (even more so in XI given an MMO and all) so all they had to do was cut down the raise time (like they actually did in XI at some point) and it would have been a perfect (and rewarding) system for your personal chocobo.

It's why I say they basically caught in a bad position atm, because they need to please 2 camps of people and it's impossible to do so when one side will get uppity about it.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Again, you make it seem like it's one way or the other and that your way is the only right way.

So please, get off your high horse and answer my question. Why can there not be middle ground?

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Funny how it was you who basically stated time commitment is the wrong way, which means it's actually you who should be answering my question, since you basically implied you should be rewarded for no time commitment, if "sacrificing is the only way to get a half decent drop rate" is the wrong way.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Which is why we're pretty much stuck till 2.0, the only problem people had with raising in VII and XI was the fact it took a lot of time to do (even more so in XI given an MMO and all) so all they had to do was cut down the raise time (like they actually did in XI at some point) and it would have been a perfect (and rewarding) system for your personal chocobo.

It's why I say they basically caught in a bad position atm, because they need to please 2 camps of people and it's impossible to do so when one side will get uppity about it.



Funny how it was you who basically stated time commitment is the wrong way, which means it's actually you who should be answering my question, since you basically implied you should be rewarded for no time commitment, if "sacrificing is the only way to get a half decent drop rate."

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I never said anything about your way being right or wrong. I said you make it seem like your way is the ONLY right way (implying there is more than one right way). Also, stop trying to deflect and answer my question because I can only assume if you're not providing an answer it's because you don't have one.

Why is one way or the other the only way? Why can we not have some middle ground? Why do you believe it's either hardcore onry or gtfo?

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Which is why we're pretty much stuck till 2.0, the only problem people had with raising in VII and XI was the fact it took a lot of time to do (even more so in XI given an MMO and all) so all they had to do was cut down the raise time (like they actually did in XI at some point) and it would have been a perfect (and rewarding) system for your personal chocobo.

It's why I say they basically caught in a bad position atm, because they need to please 2 camps of people and it's impossible to do so when one side will get uppity about it.

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I agree, it is time consuming, but people enjoyed it. Devs always have to please 2 sides, that is where compromise comes in.

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Originally Posted by Daku_Naito

I agree, it is time consuming, but people enjoyed it. Devs always have to please 2 sides, that is where compromise comes in.

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Yep. The best compromise is a point system, since for those who complain about committing time to something, they can still build points at their own pace versus those who spam will just get there first.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Yep. The best compromise is a point system, since for those who complain about committing time to something, they can still build points at their own pace versus those who spam will just get there first.

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Exactly. =o

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Yep. The best compromise is a point system, since for those who complain about committing time to something, they can still build points at their own pace versus those who spam will just get there first.

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Agreed, but they better do it right, or people will complain :p

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Originally Posted by Daku_Naito

Agreed, but they better do it right, or people will complain :p

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Basically lol. I figured they tried with Hamlet, but the general nature of that event didn't help much.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Basically lol. I figured they tried with Hamlet, but the general nature of that event didn't help much.

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To be fair, even the hardest of hardcore players are a little pissed off about hamlet defense.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

To be fair, even the hardest of hardcore players are a little pissed off about hamlet defense.

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Especially with the supposed need of all three items for a item next patch. On top of 25k seals that everyone spent on barding and crap gear.

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Originally Posted by Daku_Naito

Especially with the supposed need of all three items for a item next patch. On top of 25k seals that everyone spent on barding and crap gear.

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The seals aren't that big of an issue if you can find a good duo partner for Toto-rak. But the fact that you need Rank 1-3 provisioner in Hamlet defense to get even one item on a level 2 defense to get even one of the three seals is the slightest bit horribadomgridicucrazy. I'm sorry, I cannot possibly imagine that anyone honestly has 18 hours to pour into an event, much less one where it's practically impossible to get higher than rank 4.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

To be fair, even the hardest of hardcore players are a little pissed off about hamlet defense.

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They should at least give something worthwhile for rank 20+ players. Not the best junk mind you, but something worth the amount of time that goes into it.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

The seals aren't that big of an issue if you can find a good duo partner for Toto-rak. But the fact that you need Rank 1-3 provisioner in Hamlet defense to get even one item on a level 2 defense to get even one of the three seals is the slightest bit horribadomgridicucrazy. I'm sorry, I cannot possibly imagine that anyone honestly has 18 hours to pour into an event, much less one where it's practically impossible to get higher than rank 4.

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Toto-Rak is easy, but I want to jam a pencil in my eye whenever I do it.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

The seals aren't that big of an issue if you can find a good duo partner for Toto-rak. But the fact that you need Rank 1-3 provisioner in Hamlet defense to get even one item on a level 2 defense to get even one of the three seals is the slightest bit horribadomgridicucrazy. I'm sorry, I cannot possibly imagine that anyone honestly has 18 hours to pour into an event, much less one where it's practically impossible to get higher than rank 4.

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It's why I stated they probably have it as a placeholder just to get everything sync'd up and will adjust it when it goes live, but I was told I was wrong for thinking that..even though SE has a long history of doing it. >.>

The drop rate is low because you can spam the dungeons. Problem is when you can spam them people do it a lot and get bored, and eventually just want their gear so they don't have to do it again. Fix the problem by making them doable every 24 hours to 1 week depending on the dungeon, and increase the drop rate. Put more gear in each dungeon, make it so at least 1 will drop every run, and create a few pieces of very rare, very good gear. This way it won't get so boring so fast and people will actually be excited to see what they'll get and whether it'll be something they can use.

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Originally Posted by Kazimir

The drop rate is low because you can spam the dungeons. Problem is when you can spam them people do it a lot and get bored, and eventually just want their gear so they don't have to do it again. Fix the problem by making them doable every 24 hours to 1 week depending on the dungeon, and increase the drop rate. Put more gear in each dungeon, make it so at least 1 will drop every run, and create a few pieces of very rare, very good gear. This way it won't get so boring so fast and people will actually be excited to see what they'll get and whether it'll be something they can use.

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That sounds good. They should have a mix though. Have hard dungeons, easier dungeons with time constraints. I don't mind CC and AV, I just hate the drop rates, maybe make a totem system for all dungeons that will be like that. Then make dungeons that you can only do every so often. A mix would be awesome.

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Originally Posted by Rizon

I have read countless threads in which players complain bitterly about drop rates. They are abysmal, even by SEs standards. I know that you have explained your philosophy concerning drop rate but I feel compelled to remind you of 1 thing. You are not paying for this game. The subscribers, present and future, are. I do not know if there is anything that will destroy a game faster then if the players feel that they a wasting their time for no real reward. I may not know much about game mechanics but I do know that dissatisfied customers will abandon you and most will never return, even if you do eventually make the necessary adjustments. There have been many suggestions put forward in previous threads to correct this. Many of them are well reasoned. Please review them and make the proper adjustments.

I have been waiting patiently since Sept 2010 while you have worked hard on the game as well as Ver 2.0. I would hate to see your efforts ruined because you failed to take the concerns of a large majority of the players into account.

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I disagree with OP and his childish whining.

Why dont you try to see things the other way ? It is much more rewarding when you finaly drop an item after numerous battles than after only a very few. What would be the point of paying 10€ a month if after one said month you get all the items you want ?

Let me add that his is also a school of life. sometimes you DO NOT get what you want. Sometimes you have to set priorities in order to get something, or you might lose everything. Let FFXIV teaches you patience and humility, or leave this game. In any way, stop whining on the forum like a spoiled child.

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Originally Posted by Silma

I disagree with OP and his childish whining.

Why dont you try to see things the other way ? It is much more rewarding when you finaly drop an item after numerous battles than after only a very few. What would be the point of paying 10€ a month if after one said month you get all the items you want ?

Let me add that his is also a school of life. sometimes you DO NOT get what you want. Sometimes you have to set priorities in order to get something, or you might lose everything. Let FFXIV teaches you patience and humility, or leave this game. In any way, stop whining on the forum like a spoiled child.

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Hmmm. I must be dense. I make a post of my observations of countless other posts as a suggestion to Yoshi-P and I am whinning. I never knew. If you bother to take a look at any of my previous posts you will find that I have never taken a stance, one way or another, concerning the drop rates. All I am concerned about is the future well being of a game I enjoy very much. If that is whinning then so be it.

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Originally Posted by Silma

I disagree with OP and his childish whining.

Why dont you try to see things the other way ? It is much more rewarding when you finaly drop an item after numerous battles than after only a very few. What would be the point of paying 10€ a month if after one said month you get all the items you want ?

Let me add that his is also a school of life. sometimes you DO NOT get what you want. Sometimes you have to set priorities in order to get something, or you might lose everything. Let FFXIV teaches you patience and humility, or leave this game. In any way, stop whining on the forum like a spoiled child.

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I agree, but I wouldn't call him a whiner. After all, why would he want to 'waste his time' doing the same thing over and over? To a lot of people, that's really boring.

Now I personally think the time and effort makes the reward all that much sweeter, but we can't disregard players for wanting to have as much 'fun' as they can get in a game.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

I agree, but I wouldn't call him a whiner. After all, why would he want to 'waste his time' doing the same thing over and over? To a lot of people, that's really boring.

Now I personally think the time and effort makes the reward all that much sweeter, but we can't disregard players for wanting to have as much 'fun' as they can get in a game.

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There are lots of ways to prolong content. Piss-poor drop rates just has the disadvantage of frustrating players cause when they spam runs and don't get the drop they feel like they are wasting their time. A consolation prize on the other hand will keep players spamming it in the hopes to get what they want. Personally I wouldn't mind say if dark light gear had a better drop percentage on a rare mob that occurs maybe 1 in 10 runs. Or some sort of currency where I had to save up to "buy" the piece I want using said currency. Maybe even gathering a few different pieces and having the gear crafted by some means... all of these are better outcomes then .0001% drop rates XD

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Originally Posted by Jokerz

There are lots of ways to prolong content. Piss-poor drop rates just has the disadvantage of frustrating players cause when they spam runs and don't get the drop they feel like they are wasting their time. A consolation prize on the other hand will keep players spamming it in the hopes to get what they want. Personally I wouldn't mind say if dark light gear had a better drop percentage on a rare mob that occurs maybe 1 in 10 runs. Or some sort of currency where I had to save up to "buy" the piece I want using said currency. Maybe even gathering a few different pieces and having the gear crafted by some means... all of these are better outcomes then .0001% drop rates XD

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It's not just a matter of prolonging content. It's about higher commitment yielding a higher reward, and what it means for those who can't give that amount engagement to the game.

Technically, it's only a waste of time to grind the runs if you never get the gear. I do like the idea of "buying" the gear like the primal items. Balance it with the drop rate and you'll remove the illusion that they're wasting time trying it over and over.

Dear OP

Please make more posts generalizing what you feel is the general consensus of those on the forums in general. It generally tends to work, or I'm the General's General.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

It's not just a matter of prolonging content. It's about higher commitment yielding a higher reward, and what it means for those who can't give that amount engagement to the game.

Technically, it's only a waste of time to grind the runs if you never get the gear. I do like the idea of "buying" the gear like the primal items. Balance it with the drop rate and you'll remove the illusion that they're wasting time trying it over and over.

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Exactly, Gramul, Exactly. As much as people dance around this issue argumenting ad infinitum, people almost always get to that conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Denmo

Dear OP

Please make more posts generalizing what you feel is the general consensus of those on the forums in general. It generally tends to work, or I'm the General's General.

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Well, this is the General Discussion board, so I'd say things are going well, in general.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

It's not just a matter of prolonging content. It's about higher commitment yielding a higher reward, and what it means for those who can't give that amount engagement to the game.

Technically, it's only a waste of time to grind the runs if you never get the gear. I do like the idea of "buying" the gear like the primal items. Balance it with the drop rate and you'll remove the illusion that they're wasting time trying it over and over.

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I think you've nailed it.

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Originally Posted by Rizon

Hmmm. I must be dense. I make a post of my observations of countless other posts as a suggestion to Yoshi-P and I am whinning. I never knew. If you bother to take a look at any of my previous posts you will find that I have never taken a stance, one way or another, concerning the drop rates. All I am concerned about is the future well being of a game I enjoy very much. If that is whinning then so be it.

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Fighting a boss with friends and LS mates is fun. Killing a boss if fun. Having the boss drop a pixelated item is not what i call fun. Getting a reward is the cherry on the cake. If you eat 10000 cherries a day you'll get sick. If you get 10 items a months you'll get bored and cancel your subscription.

Upping the drop is killing the game, which is the exact opposite of what you want.

You and people like you fail to understand this. You want this game to become WoW.

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Originally Posted by Silma

Fighting a boss with friends and LS mates is fun. Killing a boss if fun. Having the boss drop a pixelated item is not what i call fun. Getting a reward is the cherry on the cake. If you eat 10000 cherries a day you'll get sick. If you get 10 items a months you'll get bored and cancel your subscription.

Upping the drop is killing the game, which is the exact opposite of what you want.

You and people like you fail to understand this. You want this game to become WoW.

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Oh god, the last few leves I did gave me like 12 items, I guess I'm bored now and have to cancel my subscription.

*sigh* It was nice knowing you all. =/

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Originally Posted by Silma

Fighting a boss with friends and LS mates is fun. Killing a boss if fun. Having the boss drop a pixelated item is not what i call fun. Getting a reward is the cherry on the cake. If you eat 10000 cherries a day you'll get sick. If you get 10 items a months you'll get bored and cancel your subscription.

Upping the drop is killing the game, which is the exact opposite of what you want.

You and people like you fail to understand this. You want this game to become WoW.

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I can only agree with this statement if what I'm doing is actually fun. Repeat something enough and it kills the fun.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Oh god, the last few leves I did gave me like 12 items, I guess I'm bored now and have to cancel my subscription.

*sigh* It was nice knowing you all. =/

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obvious troll is obvious. we're having a serious talk here, in case you didnt see.

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Originally Posted by Silma

obvious troll is obvious. we're having a serious talk here, in case you didnt see.

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Yes, I can see how trying to scare people with "ZOMGTURNINGINTOWoW" is a seriously serious talk.

*seriousnezz*

Another thread on same topic... /quoteself ftw...

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Originally Posted by VytasBismarck

I'm lazy to write so ill just quote myself from the other thread on same topic:

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Originally Posted by VytasBismarck

Awesome time sink is awesome. Best gear drops based mostly on luck are best. Lucky people with complete darklight set are lucky. Nothing new here, you can move along now or enjoy the game. 'Till way past 2.0 you will see nothing but time sinks, get over it.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Yes, I can see how trying to scare people with "ZOMGTURNINGINTOWoW" is a seriously serious talk.

*seriousnezz*

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You are obviously too young and have no arguments. you shouldnt be allowed posting.

Back on topic, I can see all those level 50 in Ul'dah showing their Ifrit/Moogle weapon. Some players even have each and every weapon for several lvl 50 jobs.

It can only mean 2 things : 50% of the server are mindless unemployed bassment dwellers who spend all their time running the boss again and again, or it can mean that the drop rates are already too high.

The drop rate might be too high or just what it needs to be for something like Ifrit / Moogle fight. I expect the drop rate of HNM in version 2.0 to be lower. If not, it would be a huge disapointment and a betrayal from SE to the Final Fantasy's achievement spirit.