Toxic DPS

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

No you aren't. By refusing to take mobs off the DPS you actively aren't doing your job. If your healer friend isn't yet comfortable with healing, don't queue into healer level dungeons and force the DPS to comply. What you're essentially doing is demanding the DPS conform and you've ensured anyone who steps out of line can be easily kicked.

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What a load of dribble mate.

And I suppose you were immediately capable of tanking/healing wall to wall pulls, without issue and without compromise, the first time you ever played the jobs in ffxiv?

Of course you were.

There are 4 people in a dungeon, if only one of them is actively upsetting the balance and causing issues for the other 3, who exactly is the problem?

What gives a selfish dps the right to throw the rest of the party into chaos?

Maybe I should start pulling up all the sub par dps players I get in 95% of my dungeon runs and tell them that if they are not up to performing their role to a high degree then they shouldn't waste my time by queueing up?

Like I said, I am more than happy to let idiots like that die.

If you need to go out of your way to prove to your team that you're actually the tank, then you're probably not much of a tank.

Genuinely inexperienced tanks don't get hung up with such pretenses. It's the middle part of the Dunning-Kruger curve that's the problem.

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Originally Posted by DarkDredgen

There are 4 people in a dungeon, if only one of them is actively upsetting the balance and causing issues for the other 3, who exactly is the problem?

What gives a selfish dps the right to throw the rest of the party into chaos?

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I mean pot meets kettle much? the tank that won't w2w pull is upsetting the balance and causing issues for the rest of the party that just wants to get the dungeon done, get the exp/ tomes/ glam or whatever else, if anything the selfish person is the tank taking away something tangible, peoples time, wasting it by 10-15 minutes more than is needed. Inexperience is a piss poor excuse to not w2w pull, especially when there is so many tools to facilitate it now.

And no tank is gonna learn how to w2w pull by not doing it, so inexperience is less of an excuse, single pulling is nothing short of just lazy gameplay. No healer is gonna learn how to handle w2w pulls, without doing w2w pulls, single trash pulls are a massive waste of healer resources.

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Originally Posted by DarkDredgen

Like I said, I am more than happy to let idiots like that die.

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This is straight up griefing your party and is toxic gameplay, nothing to be proud of.

I think putting an inexperienced healer in a position where they can not cope and causing wipe after wipe will waste more time than single party pulls personally, but that's just me I guess.

I ask you both, who is causing the most grief and being the most toxic in the following scenarios:

A tank who adapts to their party, pulls smaller because the healer is new to avoid completely avoidable wipes.

A small d*** energy DPS who rushes ahead, breaks from the party, despite the above, to pull multiple mobs causing wipes and stress for the rest of the party.

And you two clowns think the tank that adapts is the problem here? I honestly think that some people on this forum are so hell bent on being argumentative for the sake of it that they don't even realise they are talking complete nonsense.

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Originally Posted by DarkDredgen

A small d*** energy DPS who rushes ahead, breaks from the party, despite the above, to pull multiple mobs causing wipes and stress for the rest of the party.

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Because a full pull causes so many wipes and stress for a "big d***" party?

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And you two clowns think the tank that adapts is the problem here?

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Given that your "adapting" is to sabotage and kill your DPS by not doing your job... yes. Most definitely yes.

I personally am curious cause I don't know the answer, but is it actually banable if a tank doesn't take hate off the healer or dps who went and pulled ahead on their own free will?

If it is banable then that's about the dumbest rule I've heard, it's not the tank's fault if a healer or dps feels frisky and jumps ahead, if they make that choice then how is that a tank griefing them? The tank had nothing to do with it, the dps or healer chose themselves to do that and I'm a dps main who enjoys when tanks do big pulls.

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Originally Posted by VictorTheed

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It is at least a legit reportable case, yes. Your job as a tank is keeping hate on mobs, mitigating damage; in short, keep your party alive within your capability. If you refuse to take aggro from your party members, you are neglecting your job, thus griefing and/or MPK.

@topic: w2w are the norm from lvl 50 dungeons onwards with very few exceptions by reasonable risky pulls, e.g. 2nd pull before the last boss in Dohn Mheg (lvl 73), or by design (forced single pulls). Being in a lvl 70 dungeon, if you don't pull w2w, you are wasting the rest of your party's time for no excuse nor reason. Haven't done any tanking yet, but still join an "endgame dungeon"? Either run a leveling dungeon to learn w2w or be ready for a crash course.

Ultimately, it was your choice to join said dungeon, so either live with the consequences and do your job or bail out!

YOU are the tank, YOU stand in front of your party. If your party gets ahead of you, finally press that sprint button, rush the enemy, hug the wall, and show them how to stand your ground! Personally, I would feel ashamed as a tank if my party gets ahead of me for more than 1 GCD.

imagine waiting a 30m que for dsp and you get a tank that makes the run slow and boring... i main a healer, and if a dps does this while youre doing a 2 mob pull, ill main heal the dps that does it.. i even grab a mob myself...

The day this community learns to type more than 0/ or drop a macro in chat is the day these problems go away.

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Originally Posted by VictorTheed

I personally am curious cause I don't know the answer, but is it actually banable if a tank doesn't take hate off the healer or dps who went and pulled ahead on their own free will?

If it is banable then that's about the dumbest rule I've heard, it's not the tank's fault if a healer or dps feels frisky and jumps ahead, if they make that choice then how is that a tank griefing them? The tank had nothing to do with it, the dps or healer chose themselves to do that and I'm a dps main who enjoys when tanks do big pulls.

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If DPS pulled, didn't bring mobs to you, and died because you didn't notice they had aggro you can shrug that off as a mistake.

If they pull, and you drop stance, Shirk them, or otherwise actively try to get them killed to "teach them a lesson", especially if you tell them that's what you are doing, that's textbook griefing and very much reportable. It's the same with healers who refuse to heal someone because they were a jerk in party chat.

Not to excuse anyone being a jerk in chat, but trying to get another party member killed is never the right response. If someone is truly problematic: talk to them, vote kick if talking doesn't work, leave yourself if vote kick doesn't work.

I don't think that you can get into trouble as a tank for silently failing to hold mobs. The thing that always gets people into trouble is the stuff that they type into chat afterwords.

The really funny thing is that it's almost never the longstanding tank main who's been doing all their content on tank for years who comes in with this attitude. They're probably so bored of running it that they just want to get in and out as fast as possible, and if the mobs end up on someone else they'll just pick them up instantly on reflex. You're usually done the instance before you realize how efficient they were.

It's that player that happened to gear up a tank with offspec drops and extra tokens, and now thinks that they're a bigshot simply because they've decided to grace your presence as a tank. You can see them from a mile away because they invariably jank tank their way through the instance. Mobs are half health and everyone is mid-burst? Er, I guess I'll start moving to pull the second pack now. I've seen sprout tanks with more common sense.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

It is at least a legit reportable case, yes. Your job as a tank is keeping hate on mobs, mitigating damage; in short, keep your party alive within your capability. If you refuse to take aggro from your party members, you are neglecting your job, thus griefing and/or MPK.

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Thats not a tank's lack of doing thier job because a healer or DPS went outside of their role and acted as a tank does, the healer or DPS made the choice to do that so whatever happens is their fault for choosing that choice, the tank didn't choose it for them or tell them to do it.

Now if a tank does a pull and one of the DPS is rocking out powerful DPS and manages to take hate from the tank then yes that would be the tank's responsibility to get it back, cause the DPS was just doing thier job , but the moment u chose to go ahead and aggro something the tank hasn't pulled yet then that 100% your fault, you made the choice, accept the outcome u put upon yourself by assuming a role that you're not.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Because a full pull causes so many wipes and stress for a "big d***" party?



Given that your "adapting" is to sabotage and kill your DPS by not doing your job... yes. Most definitely yes.

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You know what, I actually completely agree.

OK, im about to break out my DPS.

I'm going to bolt straight past the tank and run MT as my dps. I will pull the mobs at my own pace.

If the healer/tank can not rectify or tolerate my d***ish behaviour, it is them being toxic and sabotaging my game.

That makes perfect sense. I totally agree with you. You're a beacon of logic, and I'm glad you helped me see that.

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Originally Posted by DarkDredgen

You know what, I actually completely agree.

OK, im about to break out my DPS.

I'm going to bolt straight past the tank and run MT as my dps. I will pull the mobs at my own pace.

If the healer/tank can not rectify or tolerate my d***ish behaviour, it is them being toxic and sabotaging my game.

That makes perfect sense. I totally agree with you. You're a beacon of logic, and I'm glad you helped me see that.

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Make sure to pop Arms Length.

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Originally Posted by DarkDredgen

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I've seen this one happen a few times. It turns into a competitive race between the tank, the healer, and the dps. And before anyone has a chance to blink, you're all at the end of the instance and you're all grinning like crazy. I love those runs.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I've seen this one happen a few times. It turns into a competitive race between the tank, the healer, and the dps. And before anyone has a chance to blink, you're all at the end of the instance and you're all grinning like crazy. I love those runs.

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Of course you have.

My friend found this:
https://i.redd.it/7af4tcw75ci81.jpg

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Originally Posted by DarkDredgen

You know what, I actually completely agree.

OK, im about to break out my DPS.

I'm going to bolt straight past the tank and run MT as my dps. I will pull the mobs at my own pace.

If the healer/tank can not rectify or tolerate my d***ish behaviour, it is them being toxic and sabotaging my game.

That makes perfect sense. I totally agree with you. You're a beacon of logic, and I'm glad you helped me see that.

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Good tanks can't be outpaced because they know sprint exists.

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Originally Posted by DarkDredgen

What a load of dribble mate.

And I suppose you were immediately capable of tanking/healing wall to wall pulls, without issue and without compromise, the first time you ever played the jobs in ffxiv?

Of course you were.

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oh the irony



Nobody was , and that's not the duty type in question the duty was a level 60 post MSQ dungeon


What type of player isn't capable of understanding that big pulls help tanks own CD management , healers for their limted AOE to get the most out of their mana and lower potency and DPS capable big badaboom AOE rotations by lvl 60 ?

The way I see it is your party needs to be all on the same page. I don't care what's optimal and how I should be playing, if any of the supporting roles are uncomfortable doing their job the very least you can do is say so. *If* people carry on with their own devices and overextend despite that, me as a tank will leave them to their own devices in silence.

Yeah we lose time if tanks are not ripping through mobs, but I would rather that and find a sweet spot than rush to a wipe because DPS has lunch in 5 minutes. Beginning of endwalker I felt my healers were asleep as DRK and did wipe a few times I tried pulling above what seemed comfortable. It's important to gauge your limits and not add unnecessary stress to your party.

Did single pulls back in 2.0 and as I climb to 50, then eventually did wall pulls at 50, and believe me walls pulls were no joke back then. If you're saying you're still learning to tank at 60-70+ doing single pulls, you're having a laugh, or you're giving/obtaining legitimate bad advice.

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Originally Posted by Marxel

Just got out of Saint Mocianne’s Arboretum (Hard) as DRK. Pulled roughly two mobs at a time and at one point a SAM ran ahead and started fighting another mob while I and the team were still dealing with my current pull. I responded “Don’t pull ahead of me, please”. Their response? “Then pull like a man.” I explained I’m not a tank main and going at a pace I’m comfortable with and to not be a dick. They responded “Don’t make me laugh”.
The last boss they and the rest of the team died to failed mechanics but I managed to solo the boss from about 40%. It felt good, but my mood’s been soured from this toxic DPS. Is their behavior reportable? If not, how do you tank mains go about dealing with it?

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Play however you want, and leave when someone ruins it for you. Life is too short, and you don't log in to serve for someone else's pleasure. You'll get a new group in an instant once your 30m are up.

Failure to pull a sufficient number of mobs is still grounds for a kick, and none of the TOS changes would make this any sort of violation.

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Originally Posted by DarkDredgen

What a load of dribble mate.

And I suppose you were immediately capable of tanking/healing wall to wall pulls, without issue and without compromise, the first time you ever played the jobs in ffxiv?

Of course you were.

There are 4 people in a dungeon, if only one of them is actively upsetting the balance and causing issues for the other 3, who exactly is the problem?

What gives a selfish dps the right to throw the rest of the party into chaos?

Maybe I should start pulling up all the sub par dps players I get in 95% of my dungeon runs and tell them that if they are not up to performing their role to a high degree then they shouldn't waste my time by queueing up?

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Never said I was. However, when I was new to tanking I spammed early dungeons such as Brayflux, Stone Vigil and Darkhold to practice. This is after I leveled my first tank (DRK) through mostly FATE grinding back when the Yo-kai event first released. Yes, I actually went back and repeatedly spammed "old" dungeons just to better prepare myself.

If I can do that, why can't you or your friend? Because you couldn't care less about the experience of other players. You say "only one of them" yet ignore the high possibility both DPS want to go faster. In that same scenario you're gonna say "too bad!" Do explain how that isn't selfish, or how it supposedly isn't selfish to queue into 71+ content and expect everyone else to just accept you're new and deal with it?

What "high degree?" As a tank your buttons literally do not change. As a healer, you might actually have to heal in a double pack pull. If you consider this high intensity gameplay, you aren't ready to tank/heal dungeons above 50. Single pulls reduce tanks to gimped DPS and nothing more. In fact, both roles are so worthless they could be replaced entirely by a DPS and you'd actually go faster. There's a reason you hear several recounts on TalesFromDF where DPS wound up tanking a full pack and the healer slapped a regen on them without worry. I've actually been that healer before. It's incredibly easy to keep a DPS alive in small pulls, especially Melee.

I do like the emphasise you put on "your time." Of course the DPS' time doesn't matter to you. "Too bad! They should queue as a tank if they wanna go fast." What was that about DPS being selfish?

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Originally Posted by DarkDredgen

Like I said, I am more than happy to let idiots like that die.

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And this just makes you a bad tank. You aren't "adapting." You're inflicting a self perceived vendetta against DPS who dared step out of line. They aren't intending to wipe the party by pulling ahead, you are intending to kill them. Therefore, you're the one intentionally griefing not them.

Don't know why some people on these forums are on such high horses. Whenever I tank I do my double pulls the same way every time and practically never hear a complaint from anybody, and if someone did complain (which happened only a couple times in the last year), they were simply just trying to stir up something.

What kinda bugs me is when I'm double pulling, but apparently auto run isn't enough and I see some DPS sprint ahead of me to pull. I've taken to getting to the last boss and saying "brb dog is acting up" and afking for about 3-5 minutes when they do that.
I don't have a dog, but everyone seems happy enough to wait.

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Originally Posted by RatCopter

What kinda bugs me is when I'm double pulling, but apparently auto run isn't enough and I see some DPS sprint ahead of me to pull. I've taken to getting to the last boss and saying "brb dog is acting up" and afking for about 3-5 minutes when they do that.
I don't have a dog, but everyone seems happy enough to wait.

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Or you could also use your abilities, like sprint. You could learn a thing from those DPS but you decided to be trash.

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Originally Posted by RatCopter

What kinda bugs me is when I'm double pulling, but apparently auto run isn't enough and I see some DPS sprint ahead of me to pull. I've taken to getting to the last boss and saying "brb dog is acting up" and afking for about 3-5 minutes when they do that.
I don't have a dog, but everyone seems happy enough to wait.

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You refuse to use your tool that provides considerable savings in time and your HP across the gather, and then grief your party if someone else uses that same tool to save the party's time and your HP?

Pop Sprint before entering combat so you get the full 20 sec and grab the double packs.

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Originally Posted by RatCopter

What kinda bugs me is when I'm double pulling, but apparently auto run isn't enough and I see some DPS sprint ahead of me to pull. I've taken to getting to the last boss and saying "brb dog is acting up" and afking for about 3-5 minutes when they do that.
I don't have a dog, but everyone seems happy enough to wait.

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I'm sure those DPS learned their lessons! I know I sure would if some tank pretended to be afk for a pretty valid and relatable reason instead of just calling me out!

Nice of you to waste the other players time too on top of the one you're salty about, you big baby.

I thought people were being needlessly hostile in this thread, but turns out it wasn't just my imagination, you guys really take this seriously.

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Originally Posted by Aluja89

Or you could also use your abilities, like sprint. You could learn a thing from those DPS but you decided to be trash.

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Sometimes I don't particularly feel like it, and DPS have nothing to teach. Trash is a pretty strong word coming from you, all things considered.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You refuse to use your tool that provides considerable savings in time and your HP across the gather

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Yes. I'm not obligated to respect anybody else's time, and certainly not to the degree where I have to hyperoptimize dungeon runs in a public expert roulette, which has never achieved the speeds I get when I run them with half my static. And we don't sprint.
Oh, and I run WAR for dungeons, so HP literally doesn't matter

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Originally Posted by Visanis

I'm sure those DPS learned their lessons! I know I sure would if some tank pretended to be afk for a pretty valid and relatable reason instead of just calling me out!
Nice of you to waste the other players time too on top of the one you're salty about, you big baby.

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It's not about teaching a lesson, DPS are far too dense for that.

It's just dungeons, calm the hell down.

There is no need for any fo this, really, everybody know that there is a difference between trying to be helpful and trying to be obnoxious. I don't mind a DPS who pulls something I forgot or I did not know because I am new to the dungeon, I am grateful for it in fact, because the way I see it, they are trying to be helpful. That DPS however who is always trying really really hard (you can see how hard they try) and doing everything they can to outrun you and pull ahead of you depite the fact that you are sprinting and running as much as you can is just trying to be obnoxious: that guy is not helping, he is in fact slowing us down because he is messing up my timmings to pull and hit everything and forcing me to be constantly adjusting. I have found more than a handful of this kind and while I don't care because I have no problem adjusting and going slower if you force me to with your "hasty" ways, I can see how it can be annoying for other tanks.

You pull you tank is petty, yes, I agree. Don't be as petty yourself and let the tank do his thing, or at least try to be helpful if they are not as fast as you would like so they can improve on that regard. Being blatantly obnoxious is not helpful for anybody.

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Originally Posted by RatCopter

(...) I'm not obligated to respect anybody else's time, and certainly not to the degree where I have to hyperoptimize dungeon runs in a public expert roulette (...)

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I'd give you that some people in this thread a bit harsh, but man, there is a huge difference between not optimizing the expert roulette pulls for speed, and purposefully wasting people's time by lying about having to go afk to walk a dog you don't have, that is some next level power trip move.

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Originally Posted by RatCopter

Sometimes I don't particularly feel like it, and DPS have nothing to teach. Trash is a pretty strong word coming from you, all things considered.

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Considering what, please enlighten me dumpster lord.

I remember when I was a young tankling that thought they were the dogs bollocks and everyone had to follow ME. I then grew up.

Seriously, if a DPS pulls something, intentional or not, just pick them up and continue. The best way to overcome the w2w pulling is to just do it, it isn't like it is any different from single pulls anyway, just with added mitigation, the mitigation buttons need love too.

And it is generally the tanks who are newer that have the 'mightier than thou' attitude. No, you are not more important than the rest of the party, you expect everyone to cave into your own self made rules on how the dungeon goes, disregarding everyone else.

If you want tips on how to w2w, ask a tank friend, if you want to practice, ask a healer friend to join you, someone you can trust. I've had healers say they aren't comfortable doing w2w pulls and I've asked whether they have even tried. I then proceed to w2w pull and we get through without deaths (granted, this is low level healers who are new), of which I then give the encouraging, 'see, you can do it' of which it is normally received with a, that's easier than I was expecting.

I suspect most of the hesitation comes from not wanting to wipe the party but, at the end of the day, noone really cares, try it out and when you succeed, you will feel better and the dungeon will be more exciting.

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Originally Posted by RatCopter

Yes. I'm not obligated to respect anybody else's time, and certainly not to the degree where I have to hyperoptimize dungeon runs in a public expert roulette

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It's not about being obligated, it's community morals. People are not saying to hyper optimize the dungeons, we're saying clear the content at a reasonable effort in general respect for every player, someone who refuses to follow a foot and be ultra lazy, deserve a bashing. There's one thing I hate doing, is carrying players who can't be asked to put some effort into a game.

Also this, from Reddit. Why trust > people.

https://i.redd.it/ek35vobv98j81.jpg

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Originally Posted by RatCopter

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When even just using Sprint becomes "hyperoptimizing". /smh

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

When even just using Sprint becomes "hyperoptimizing". /smh

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Yeah I don't get how Sprint is hyper-optimizing either honestly.

This thread kinda blew up more than I expected. I wanna thank everyone for the different responses. I think I was just caught on an off day and had an overreaction overall. I play DRK more cautiously than other tank jobs because of the general consensus that it’s more fragile atm (I know that may not necessarily be true, but seeing all the problems people have with it)