Can we not shame people who don't like the MSQ?

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

When they are being disingenuous in a dismissal, it’s not about passion. Also, who says I’m looking to convert anyone or “wake them up”? People are entitled to their own thoughts and feelings. That’s what this thread is about after all. But to claim something is completely devoid of context because you disagree; I can call it fanboyism, which is a description of their approach, or call them a liar, which would be directed more at them than an action. Sorry you see criticism as an insult when fanboyism is clearly something that clearly exists. It is part of certain cultures

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Criticism isn't an insult. Saying it's fanboyism because you yourself disagreed is an insult. Nobody is going to have a serious genuine discussion with anyone that labels them as fanboy or cultist. You are allowed to critique the game and they are allowed to defend it. I just find it odd people take some sort of moral high ground against people who enjoy the game as they're some blind worshipping bigot. What I'm trying to say is there are better ways to give your criticism than to lump people from the opposition as fanboyism.

I don't really think you can compare XIV to Life is Strange. There is PLENTY of video game here outside of the MSQ. There is virtually no video game outside of the story of Life is Strange.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

I wouldn't say shaming, but more confusing. It would be like playing The last of us or Life is Strange for the gameplay. You are kind of missing a huge part of what the game offers but it's your money, so who cares? Just don't go asking dumb story related questions in chat if you are going to ignore said story.

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People came to Last of Us to kill some zombie. Life is Strange is a story-based game, I'll grant that one. They telegraph it pretty hard that it's story-based so if you go for gameplay you're totally in the wrong. But Final Fantasy was never that.

Final Fantasy story in general has been hit-or-miss and the mileage varies per person. I don't think as many people come to a Final Fantasy for story then the ones that come for just the name, to see Chocobos, or and swing questionably-designed swords.

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

Back in StB I had no idea what the story was about because I skipped everything. I had so much fun though. Loved all the raids and trials and when I first did Orbonne I was blown away. I just loved all the boss designs and the way the classes played. I was an AST main and was having a blast playing that class. When I finally got into DoL and DoH classes I had fun with that too, especially with btn. I thought it was so cool that you had to gather things at a certain time of day. Back then I had no idea that the story was the selling point because the friend that recommended it to me was a cutscene skipper too lol.

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I tried to pay attention in stormblood and still don't remember much. There's a rebellion. Empire Bad. There's a guy out there that can STILL outperform the WoL somehow until plot dictates that he can't. That's about it.

Orbonne is cool, though.

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

Criticism isn't an insult. Saying it's fanboyism because you yourself disagreed is an insult. Nobody is going to have a serious genuine discussion with anyone that labels them as fanboy or cultist. You are allowed to critique the game and they are allowed to defend it. I just find it odd people take some sort of moral high ground against people who enjoy the game as they're some blind worshipping bigot. What I'm trying to say is there are better ways to give your criticism than to lump people from the opposition as fanboyism.

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Where did they defend it? I saw someone say “devoid of context” while ignoring literally the context. Getting upset in such a manner, blind to the context because feelings are forefront, is part of fanboyism, which does exist and is not an insult, if you are insulted by it, that’s a feeling of shame you may hold for yourself

Nope, no shame here. What a particular thing to say. Not even sure what that is supposed to mean.

If fanboyism isn't an insult then nobody should take offense if the opposition labeled them trolls and haters when they disagree. It goes both way then.

it's directed at people who brag about it usually. like it's something to be proud of? no one really cares what you do in your game, but when you post something negative about something in a place where the vast majority enjoys said thing, expect people to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

Nope, no shame here. What a particular thing to say. Not even sure what that is supposed to mean.

If fanboyism isn't an insult then nobody should take offense if the opposition labeled them trolls and haters when they disagree. It goes both way then.

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Well hater is usually used to dismiss any valid argument. Good stretch though. The words and their uses are not synonymous. Fanboyism would suggest blind passion. Far different than dismissing what someone says

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

Nope, no shame here. What a particular thing to say. Not even sure what that is supposed to mean.

If fanboyism isn't an insult then nobody should take offense if the opposition labeled them trolls and haters when they disagree. It goes both way then.

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The fact that you are getting so bent out of shape by the word "fanboy" would suggest that you feel some sort of shame about it. Being a "fanboy" isn't so much of a personal attack as an observation about potential bias. Meanwhile "troll" or "hater" would suggest that you are an angry, hateful person who just wants to cause problems. There is a difference.

Why do you make these terrible topics?

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Originally Posted by Mordrick

Why do you make these terrible topics?

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Because these threads are more entertaining than this games msq

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

What are you on about? No one said you can't enjoy Endwalker. You want to claim I am Strawmanning while doing just that? I'm talking about a word. A very specific word that you are obsessing over and becoming offended about. And that if you are so offended by being accused of fanboyism (read: bias), then obviously it holds some truth. I didn't even say anything about the story to you. You need to take a breather, dude. Relax. Enjoy what you enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Who is telling you to hate end walker? Ironic you accuse people of strawmanning when that is a literal strawman. I even said people are allowed to think and feel what they want. That I believe that’s what this discussion is about. If you like it, go ahead. Doesn’t effect me. As others not caring for it should have no effect on anyone else. Calm down.

Strawman while accusing someone who isn’t if strawmanning…. Seriously

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Oh now we got some whataboutism now. "You said I strawmanned now I'm saying you did too!". So we're going to imply I'm a hypocritic or something because I pointed it out to you first. Niceeee

Well since you both seem to think I need to chill out, Imma piece outta here and go play Endwalker and enjoy myself
o/ Have a nice day.

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Originally Posted by Mordrick

Why do you make these terrible topics?

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To get a rise and arguments going, some people enjoy watching stuff like that unfold, it tickles them, they know how to set the bait and make sport out of it. The other alternative is he is a defender of the minority and wants to give them a voice.

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

Oh now we got some whataboutism now. "You said I strawmanned now I'm saying you did too!". So we're going to imply I'm a hypocritic or something because I pointed it out to you first. Niceeee

Well since you both seem to think I need to chill out, Imma piece outta here and go play Endwalker o/ Have a nice day.

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I’m not implying. I’m saying. Show me where I said you should not like endwalker and I’ll retract calling you a hypocrite. Now you’re attempting to gaslight when everything is clearly typed throughout this thread. =]

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

I’m not implying. I’m saying. Show me where I said you should not like endwalker and I’ll retract calling you a hypocrite. Now you’re attempting to gaslight when everything is clearly typed throughout this thread. =]

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That seems to be a common trend here. "I'm going to accuse you of what I am actually doing so that you can't accuse me of doing it. And if you call me out on it, I'll gaslight you." Some people get so offended over nothing. Tell them that they can enjoy things if they want but you, personally, didn't and they attack you for being a hater. Funnily enough, that is a prime example of exactly what this thread is about.

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

Oh now we got some whataboutism now. "You said I strawmanned now I'm saying you did too!". So we're going to imply I'm a hypocritic or something because I pointed it out to you first. Niceeee

Well since you both seem to think I need to chill out, Imma piece outta here and go play Endwalker and enjoy myself
o/ Have a nice day.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

I’m not implying. I’m saying. Show me where I said you should not like endwalker and I’ll retract calling you a hypocrite. Now you’re attempting to gaslight when everything is clearly typed throughout this thread. =]

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

That seems to be a common trend here. "I'm going to accuse you of what I am actually doing so that you can't accuse me of doing it. And if you call me out on it, I'll gaslight you." Some people get so offended over nothing. Tell them that they can enjoy things if they want but you, personally, didn't and they attack you for being a hater. Funnily enough, that is a prime example of exactly what this thread is about.

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I'm going to give to you all straight. You're all strawmanning and gaslighting each other and not one of you are innocent and quite frankly it's annoying to read. Stop with the drama because right now I can't take any of you seriously. You're all in the wrong.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

The cult-like fanaticism surrounding the game's story is honestly scary at times.

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There is no Cult. Stop using Buzzwords that you likely got from Youtube or Twitch
People being enthusiastic about their game is not a Cult or Cult-like.

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Originally Posted by Remish

I'm going to give to you all straight. You're all strawmanning and gaslighting each other and not one of you are innocent and quite frankly it's annoying to read. Stop with the drama because right now I can't take any of you seriously. You're all in the wrong.

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I would like to give it to you straight, as well. I would like you to point out where I Strawmanned. I would like to know how I accused them of saying something they did not say. I apologize if this comes off as standoffish. I'd like to see where I committed this fallacy. If I did, I will apologize.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Because these threads are more entertaining than this games msq

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You're still doing the MSQ?

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

TLOU 2's "feedback" has been rigged since its release. I've never seen a game go on sale as much as that one has. lol And it was sitting on store shelves less than a month later while Ghost of Tsushima was selling out everywhere. So yeah, it's hard to take many official game reviews from supposedly credible sites seriously since.

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TLOU2 was all about the gaming """news""" sites pushing their politics.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

I wouldn't say shaming, but more confusing. It would be like playing The last of us or Life is Strange for the gameplay. You are kind of missing a huge part of what the game offers but it's your money, so who cares? Just don't go asking dumb story related questions in chat if you are going to ignore said story.

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I mean I feel like people who skip the story can never coherently explain what it is they actually enjoy about the game. I can think of numerous reasons, to say there's nothing to enjoy outside of MSQ is silly, but certainly without it the game would feel significantly more hollow. And honestly, there are better games if I'm more interested in gameplay. It's just a pattern I've noticed among them, they skip through everything (some even paying for a boost), and if you ask what they like to do in the game, and just dance around the answer. Endgame, they will probably say if anything. And by endgame, they mean the latest content patch and nothing else. I mean fundamentally this game is just not very strong from a purely gameplay perspective, as enjoyable as it still is. Which does beg the question as to why these people would intentionally single this game out of countless other games which offer better in that regard and pick this one instead.

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Originally Posted by SpanishInkwehsitor

For the rest of it you got Youtube and the Wiki if you're REALLY interested in what's happening. Both of those are way easier to absorb the plot than the actual presentation, especially in the case of ARR or Stormblood.

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If you weren't interested in the story enough to pay attention during the cutscenes, why would you be interested in reading a wiki summary about it afterwards? What a horrible way to consume fiction.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Disagreeing and discussing are not the same thing as launching into a variety of ad hominem attacks, which is what usually happens.

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Attacks you mean like this?

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

I read it and the context is clearly there. This is just another case of fanboyism being used to critique a critic for daring to not enjoy a minimal aspect of a game. Step out of your bubble and breathe in a breath of fresh air sometime

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Anyone is free to not enjoy the story or skip the cutscenes. Just know that I’ll be silently judging you for it. :D

But in all seriousness, I don’t see how it’s fair for someone to basically insult the MSQ and that others who enjoy it, aren’t allowed to defend it? It’s highly likely in this situation that people who play the game often (mentors or veterans) also enjoy the story. A sprout (or anyone for that matter) could easily deduce this and yet still choose to say it’s boring. In my eyes, it’s totally fair for someone else to disagree and state why. If the sprout can have an opinion, why can’t mentors/vets also have one? You have no right to take that away from them.

I don’t want anyone insulting each other, but people are free to debate and discuss.

MFW "insult", "defend".

A sprout innocently asking how to buy a jump pot or that the story is boring isn't an "insult". It's them stating a preference. There is no need for 10 different mentors to pile on to "defend" the story. This is the context I'm talking about. It happens all the time:

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Happens in the game a surprising amount, particularly in places like the Novice Network. Sometimes you'll see a sprout make an offhanded comment about a certain part of the story being boring, or say that they are mostly interested in endgame. God forbid they ask a question about story skips. Without fail, they get dogpiled by people telling them to unsubscribe from the game, or that the game "isn't for them". I've seen it happen on a smaller scale in FCs as well.

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And yes, I'm using the word "fanatic" and it is a particularly strong choice of word. But if you're not a fanatic, you shouldn't be offended! If you actually think I'm calling singular *you* a fanatic, then there's actually something sus going on... I'm not talking about everyone who likes the story after all!

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

Attacks you mean like this?

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Yep, exactly like that. Although I'd say the potato's comment lands itself firmly in strawman territory as well.

The MSQ is the driving force behind just about every aspect of the game. If you don't like it, you're better off playing something else because odds are you'll never be happy with the experience.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

You are complaining about the work of others but don't want to be attacked in turn?

You make me laugh, i love watching bullies get the karma sowed for their unasked for opinions when launched at the very same fan base of said game.

Share your opinion but expect the same rebuttals when you do, don't want it? Choose silence then.

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This is the exact kind of response I'm talking about BTW.

Rofl "bully", "karma sowed", "launched at the very same fan base".

First of all, saying the story is boring isn't an attack on the fan base of FF14!

Second of all lmao if saying the story is boring is "bullying"

BTW, just so that people don't jump to conclusions, I've watched every single cutscene in the story and even did every story sidequest in all the zones (except ARR) for the lore. Yet somehow I'm able to not interpret every slight against the story as a personal insult or someone bullying me.

I found most of my complaints with the original third of Endwalker were due to me just being excited about going to the moon. I resented anything that kept me from my dream of determining once and for all if the moon were, in fact, actually made of cheese.

If you find yourself in a similar situation, try playing through the first three zones’ cutscenes again. Lab has a bunch of cute practical lessons to teach, Thav has an amazing setup for Dynamis and the gift of the Great Work’s alchemists, and Garlemald went from my least favorite zone to my favorite zone with a better understanding of its arc.

Heck, Garlemald alone has some of the most depressing, metal, lows I’ve seen in Final Fantasy as well as the first major scene that completely wrecked me: the cup of soup.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Happens in the game a surprising amount, particularly in places like the Novice Network. Sometimes you'll see a sprout make an offhanded comment about a certain part of the story being boring, or say that they are mostly interested in endgame. God forbid they ask a question about story skips. Without fail, they get dogpiled by people telling them to unsubscribe from the game, or that the game "isn't for them". I've seen it happen on a smaller scale in FCs as well.

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Citation needed.

The idea that if you dont like the story of the game you should unsub because the game just isnt for you is one that I've seen in literally every community in and about the game I've been in. Sometimes it's people who have no idea raids are good and unironically think that only 1% do savage, sometimes it comes from the very natural realization that if you dont like the story, you'll probably get less out of the game than someone who does because no small amount of dev focus is on the story. It's usually pretty easy to find out which it is.

MSQ is like 70% of the content. If you dont like it, especially hate it then I would think XIV wouldnt be a good investment of your time, unless if you are a hardcore raider that plan to beat every savages and ultimates and even doing speedruns while youre at it. But such hardcore player only make up a tiny percentage of the community as a whole.

After all we play games to have fun. If you actively dislike a large portion of the game where is the fun in that?

You don’t seem willing to discuss the matter with the other side at all and more like you just want to shut other peoples’ opinions down. And from one of your posts about wanting to be a hero for the minority, I don’t feel that your stance is genuine. More like you’re trying to earn brownie points. You have yet to post proof that a situation like this even occurred in-game. While I’m not saying you’re lying, I would just appreciate seeing this convo with my own eyes.

I only ever seen "joking banter" in friend groups about this. Because at this point everyone knows that its a meme inside FFXIV community. I never actually seen anyone "shaming" someone else for not playing MSQ. If someone shames you, you can block them and even report if they are really turning it to bullying.

I have many people on my friend list who either story skipped or who skip all the CS. I also have people who are still in Stormblood or ShB because they just don't focus on MSQ but on any literal available side content :D
I should have the freedom to say that I liked the MSQ and I think they miss on it and they should have the freedom to say thanks but thanks no.

If you face anything going more to shame/ bully, report or ignore and move on.

On the other hand, if you story skip and say the story is bad... then don't get surprised if some people raise their eyebrows.
Or if you skip CS but don't wait for other sprouts to watch it, then you are also not a too kind person...

I honestly have seen more people like this> We go into CT raids, we see 2-3 sprouts, some even say "hey first time" then people don't wait for them to watch CS. Then the ealry starters start arguing that they dont care about this, its boring old content anyway, "its wasting their time", "its only for dailies, lets go quick"...

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Originally Posted by MagicPeanut

You don’t seem willing to discuss the matter with the other side at all and more like you just want to shut other peoples’ opinions down. And from one of your posts about wanting to be a hero for the minority, I don’t feel that your stance is genuine. More like you’re trying to earn brownie points. You have yet to post proof that a situation like this even occurred in-game. While I’m not saying you’re lying, I would just appreciate seeing this convo with my own eyes.

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Mfw "proof". No one is going to take a screenshot of every questionable chat log they see in the game.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

Mfw "proof". No one is going to take a screenshot of every questionable chat log they see in the game.

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I literally take screenshots of any convo in game that I find memorable, just for the heck of it. It’s super easy to do and would add context and proof to your post. I suggest doing so next time for the sake of transparency.

Being shamed for not liking msq? No.

Being told to go play another game or go back to WoW (if they suspect you are from that)? Yes, absolutely.

Lore cultists is the only community in this game that straight up scare the shit out of me. Before the devs gave Waking Sands ticket, I remember how adamant some people were on the forums about not making a single change to how to get there because lore. Didn't matter how small or big the change was, it was always "LORE SAID SO!".

Lore said so? You mean same lore that was made up by word of god and could be changed if it greatly inconvenienced its playerbase? Or better yet, use their creative brains to get around lore created issues? So glad Lore Cultists are not game devs.

Idk..

From experience most people that have said they don't like the MSQ have worded it in such a way that people are likely going to take issue with it. "I don't enjoy the story in this game, it isn't for me", is entirely different from "The story sucks", especially when skipping is involved with the latter. It's not really unlike the premise of people talking about raiding and the difficulty of the game, or the job design and encounter design itself, despite never having potentially stepped in a raid. <- It's really just another form of that.

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Originally Posted by MagicPeanut

I literally take screenshots of any convo in game that I find memorable, just for the heck of it. It’s super easy to do and would add context and proof to your post. I suggest doing so next time for the sake of transparency.

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That is just a you thing though.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

If you weren't interested in the story enough to pay attention during the cutscenes, why would you be interested in reading a wiki summary about it afterwards? What a horrible way to consume fiction.

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Because I can read the entire plot in 45 minutes instead of playing it for 5 hours.

That's being generous, reading about it is very likely quicker.

If you're skipping all the cutscenes, you can't really criticize something you haven't bothered to watch, can you?

It's fine if you don't want to watch the cutscenes. Go ahead and skip them. Do the content you enjoy.

But don't complain about the story if you chose to skip it.