[SPOILERS] Hermes is a hypocrite.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

There's also more than a little hypocrisy in saying you want to make the test fair while simultaneously denying the people being tested both the knowledge of the test and any fighting chance of passing said test.

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This is late and bothering me, but this is how testing in Elpis *worked.* The test he was having Meteion do was as if she was one of the testers in Elpis, and humans were the ones being tested.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

This is late and bothering me, but this is how testing in Elpis *worked.* The test he was having Meteion do was as if she was one of the testers in Elpis, and humans were the ones being tested.

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Along with everything else in her path, as well as his supposedly beloved creations. So the notion of "fairness" here may be a warped one from the outset - little more than him being vindictive for the sake of it. Besides, their concern was not so much fairness as it was whether the creation would fit well with other life forms on the star and enrich it in their view. The star itself chose whether to ascend these beings to living beings or not by granting souls to those that fit its criteria. His test is a caricature of theirs. You can see the extremity of his stance when he exhorts concepts (lykaones) where they've already exhausted multiple means of rendering them more peaceful (e.g. even bringing Kairos into it to allow them a new slate for testing, and still indulging him over and above this) to live even if it served no purpose for the star, to hate if they so wished it. His real problem is identifying purpose in life, and death as what comes after fulfilment of that purpose, which he again brings up when the topic of his mentor's return to the Underworld comes up, and which resurfaces when he, as Amon, is confronted with Xande's nihilistic views derived from his death. He found fault in his people's views on creations but I honestly struggle to see his views as any different to those of a rather more extreme vegan/animal rights type vs a society which does not share those views for a variety of reasons. I also have a suspicion that he cares less about the creations but that his work led him to obsess over these questions to the point that he began applying them to himself and his own kind, and descended further into madness. It's not like Elpis sidequests show that the ancients didn't exhibit a degree of empathy to the creations (some others as much as he, without the insane meltdowns when things didn't go their way), but it is of a kind as we display to animals, which we also put to all manner of uses solely for our own benefit... and they nonetheless entertain his requests and, again, as per the sidequests, are open to "better" ways of doing things. So this all seems like a vehicle for his own angst more than anything else.


His "test" is not much different to Fandaniel throwing the MC into the body of that Garlean soldier - a very similar manifestation of his cruelty, IMO. He is living out a vindictive fetish and is dissatisfied whatever the answer he gets. He (Amon, not Hermes) conflates living with suffering to be met only with death at its end, bemoaning man's cruelty and eventually, in spite of some doubt, spits out this answer:

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Amon: That is my truth. My answer to the question, and yet...
Amon: ...Even as the words pass my lips, I am filled with doubt.
Amon: Has my search reached its end?
Amon: Was this the only way?
Amon: After all these years...
Amon: Is this the answer I was hoping for?

[...]

Asahi: Now you are at my mercy. I shall drag us both into oblivion, and you will never see the fulfillment of your magnum opus!
Asahi: Even should you be reborn, your desperate search for answers must start again!
Amon: Heh... And what might that be?
Amon: My wish is all but granted─to die and take you all with me.

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So I'd take any claims of "fairness" here with a pinch of salt. He simply cannot reconcile some contradictory facets of man's behaviour, be it ancient or sundered (the latter of which being where his observations as Amon derive - the Allagans had a cruel streak but my view is he'd find this wherever he looked), nor could he stomach the concept of death, and deemed life bereft of purpose in the face of these issues tormenting his mind, and this appears to be a propensity of his very soul.

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Originally Posted by vehere

Hermes hypocrisy is pretty clear early on in how he treats Meteion (and her sisters). He says he wants her to experience life, but is dismissive to her desire for a sweet because "you can't eat, and besides, you only like that because I like it". You would think he could have made it possible for her to eat things for fun, rather than doing it for nourishment, but it doesn't occur to him to do it. When Meteion wants to cheer him up, she asks for your help with the flowers. While he is appreciative, he is still in the end rather dismissive of the gesture on Meteion's part.

This isn't getting into how he sent what were essentially a bunch of beings with the emotional maturity of toddlers into space to gets answers he wanted, with completely untested abilities that ended up causing feedback loops. Or how, despite Meteion being obviously distressed and in pain, wanting to hide and avoid giving her report, Hermes disregarded this. He did not care that she was in pain and did not want to tell him. He wanted his answers. When the answers turned out to be nothing like he expected, he didn't consider trying to calm the Meteia to try convincing them that even if there were many dead worlds, it does not mean all hope is lost. No, instead he decided to let the Meteia have their suicidal cosmic temper tantrum and doomed his own people.

Basically Hermes is an abusive parent, where a child is a means to an end rather than a fully living being with their own thoughts and dreams to them. Yes, these kinds of parents often think and believe deeply that they're doing what's best for the kid but it ends up being the exact opposite.

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Yep, this too.

To me most of the people on Elpis were quite flawed... as Metion pointed out at the end of the dungeon by bringing examples to all 3 of the ancients who were with us.

But not just that. The more we spent time there and the more people we meet, none of them seemed like the kind and reasonable shades that Emet has created in ShB. The EW raids also make this clear by how some of them failed to be good parents as well...

To me, their stories seem more and more like the Greek gods. And uh boi, if you know anything about them you know they had some very dubious shit going on.

Since it was planted in our head by Emet in ShB that they are perfect (cause I really think he thought their world is perfect) it might be hard to see for some, how badly they fail to be these "perfect" beings.

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SNIP.

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You misunderstand. A parent can absolutely believe they are doing what they think is best for their child and still end up being abusive. One of my friends had her entire life plotted out for her at birth because her parents thought becoming a doctor was what was best for her. She never had a choice outside of being allowed to choose an instrument to focus on and what kind of doctor she wanted to be. They would threaten to take away financial support if she changed majors. She's a doctor now and also in therapy. Her parents admit no wrong doing and now demand she gets married, they also ask her for money and say she *owes* them for supporting her through college.

They think what they did was what was best for her, but in the end it turns out there was a degree of self-serving in their demands.

Hermes is like that. Meteion never had a choice in what she could be, for all the other things Hermes says it doesn't change that she was first and foremost created to serve his desire for answers.

Not getting into what a bad idea it is to send what are essentially toddlers into space with no prior research on what their abilities can do or on what they may find.

Hermes didn't send probes which could send back information. He sent living, feeling,thinking beings without a single regard as to what would happen if they found dead worlds.

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Originally Posted by Manny_Maneater

Yes, she sundered the world after the End of Days had come...and the Amaurotians chose the wrong path. They "gave up on the future" because they were going to sacrifice all new souls born to bring back the ones sacrificed to Zodiark originally.

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Something I’m gonna call out here is that there’s a difference here between EW and SHB.
In SHB their dispute was over the very vague “new life” to go restore their people from inside Zodiark. But this stage was supposed to come after the world was revived. See here:
https://i.imgur.com/uPg5xZT.png
In EW it shows her walking up to randos while the sky’s on fire. This can’t be at the same point in time, especially because SHB text says they were planning this stage after the world was bursting with vitality… they’re sacrificing (themselves) while it’s on fire in the EW scene. Does it seem like it’s bursting with vitality? So to me that looks more like the sacrifices to restore the planet. EW as a whole seems like it’s shifting the dispute she had with the other ancients to “we need suffering”.

Anyway she only knows it’s the “wrong” path because of knowledge she won’t share with anyone. Their world was very close to destroyed and most of their people wiped out. So she strolls out, telling them suffering is necessary. As a civilisation, they had managed to achieve peace and prosperity and had a method to restore things through Zodiark… she’s not really doing anything but offering platitudes. She comes across as extremely tone deaf, because she’s not giving any good reasons, even if she has some. So no, I don’t think she gave them a fair chance lmao

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If that isn't "giving up on the future", I don't know what is.

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Sundering your entire race.

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We stoped the End of Days. Venat's plan was succesful. Now, yes, she could have just said "there is some birb girl, go kill her" and maybe that would have stopped the End of Days, but it would have done nothing to change the systemic problems with their society. The Ancients were already broken, and their obsession in restoring their paradise was folly.

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Yep, and even the Scions were shocked by how chasing perfection could lead to that but they still want a “brighter tomorrow”, they still want to minimise suffering. In the future, the Source could forget all these lessons and pursue the same objective. What you’re telling me is that if she told the ancients all of this, explained why she believed it, they’d just ignore it and press on? Maybe, maybe not. But I’d like to see her try.
By the way, her plan had plenty of risks and could’ve failed completely… it’s why she had the hopeless escape plan as an alternative. Things could’ve gone the way of G’raha’s timeline… and in the end even then she needed Emet’s help to get it all right.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Something I’m gonna call out here is that there’s a difference here between EW and SHB.
In SHB their dispute was over the very vague “new life” to go restore their people from inside Zodiark. But this stage was supposed to come after the world was revived. See here:
https://i.imgur.com/uPg5xZT.png

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What you see in ShB is not the true Hyth. It is a shade created by Emet. It has his ideas and his memory of the events. It can be inconsistent to actually what happened in EW.

But I 100% agree, she had knowledge she should have shared, she should not have decided the whole humanity's fate cause she thought its the best... I love her, but I completely find her ways the wrong there. Not saying Zodiark summoning was the best way, but they could have done so much more if she shared info in time with her peers.

To be fair to Hermes, I don't think he was being dismissive of Meteion's part in the flower gesture when he said "Or if you only did this b/c Meteion asked you to." That was more him leaving his mind an opening to comprehend why this complete stranger was helping him with his feelings. They could either genuinely care about his wellbeing (option 1 that he allows) or they could just be appeasing Meteion (option 2), which in itself could be b/c they like her and are helpful or could just be b/c she badgered them. Its not a statement on Meteion's involvement, its a statement on Hermes' mental state. If anything, it indicates that Amaurotine society in general has been dismissive enough of Hermes' emotional struggles that he feels the need to hedge his bets when actually faced with our concern over them, to avoid getting his hopes too high.

Hermes is a bad dad, but I don't think that was an instance of it. Don't get me started on allowing Meteion to run off to wallow in nihilism (actually *aiding* her) rather than pulling himself together to reassure her, though. Hermes' weakness rendered him unable to be there for her when she needed him most.

I am ambivalent about the man, cus I understand that depression is hard and you can't just get past it. And he does seem to have been alone in his struggles, with a lot of the other Ancients being book smart and emotionally naive/shallow, if some commentary from some of the sidequesting is any indication. Having the concerns he had and being shot down all the time, essentially (unintentionally) being gaslit about them to the point where he wonders if he's the aberration... I can see why he was cracking.

But at the same time, you had a job to do and you did the opposite, Hermes, and a little girl (multiple little girls?) suffered for it. Not to mention the rest of us.

Honestly, it may just be because I forgot but I feel like... Hermes just didn't talk very much about his own emotional issues with anyone? Because we know the Ancients could feel grief (see Eric) and that there were some sort of problems going on which required a position like Azem's to be made. So while things might have been fine in Elpis itself, elsewhere could have been a different story. But since Hermes largely stayed in Elpis as far as I can tell, and was apparently a very good boss/leader that his people respected, he didn't really have much of a chance to find anyone who could share in his doubts. He just assumed nobody would really understand how he felt and did nothing to reach out or discuss his feelings with people.

Maybe if he had just left Elpis for a few weeks he could have found someone who could have understood him. But then again maybe he would be the type who would insist nobody really understands his questions and would have turned away from such a person. Who knows!

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Originally Posted by Shuuli

What you see in ShB is not the true Hyth. It is a shade created by Emet. It has his ideas and his memory of the events. It can be inconsistent to actually what happened in EW.

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It'd also require Elidibus's post-defeat SoS testimony, and Ere our Curtain Falls, to be wrong, because they both detail the same conflict.

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Originally Posted by vehere

Honestly, it may just be because I forgot but I feel like... Hermes just didn't talk very much about his own emotional issues with anyone? Because we know the Ancients could feel grief (see Eric) and that there were some sort of problems going on which required a position like Azem's to be made. So while things might have been fine in Elpis itself, elsewhere could have been a different story. But since Hermes largely stayed in Elpis as far as I can tell, and was apparently a very good boss/leader that his people respected, he didn't really have much of a chance to find anyone who could share in his doubts. He just assumed nobody would really understand how he felt and did nothing to reach out or discuss his feelings with people.

Maybe if he had just left Elpis for a few weeks he could have found someone who could have understood him. But then again maybe he would be the type who would insist nobody really understands his questions and would have turned away from such a person. Who knows!

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I don't think its ever explicitly stated that he tried to talk to people, so I guess I'm making an assumption there. We know the elpis flowers didn't change color from white for anyone other than him (as far as he knew anyway), and are left to assume that was accurate and encompassing. The overall impression I was left with was of a man who had been dealing with this for a while, had tried to talk to others, and no one else understood. I got this from how he talked about his mentor, who was gonna die to free up the seat. And how he was apparently willing to speak his concerns to Hades and Hyth, despite not knowing them well or long, which leaves me to think its not that Hermes just didn't talk to people.

Like, we know he had it boiling inside him. My logic is that it *had* to have come out in past conversations. I might be being overly charitable in my interpretation of him, but I do think we're meant to assume he has good reason to think that most other Ancients see nothing wrong with society's views on death and stewardship of new creations, rather than it just being in his head.

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Originally Posted by vehere

Honestly, it may just be because I forgot but I feel like... Hermes just didn't talk very much about his own emotional issues with anyone? Because we know the Ancients could feel grief (see Eric) and that there were some sort of problems going on which required a position like Azem's to be made. So while things might have been fine in Elpis itself, elsewhere could have been a different story. But since Hermes largely stayed in Elpis as far as I can tell, and was apparently a very good boss/leader that his people respected, he didn't really have much of a chance to find anyone who could share in his doubts. He just assumed nobody would really understand how he felt and did nothing to reach out or discuss his feelings with people.

Maybe if he had just left Elpis for a few weeks he could have found someone who could have understood him. But then again maybe he would be the type who would insist nobody really understands his questions and would have turned away from such a person. Who knows!

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Some of the side quests even show that some of the other ancients had a bit of the same feelings as Hermes did, however they found their own ways to get over it. I really don’t think he spoke out about it to anyone and just sulked on his own until he reached a breaking point. There isn’t really anyone to blame for that but himself though.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

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The Elpis flower was mentioned to be rare even there, and I don't think he took people there to stand beside it and see what color it turns. I honestly get the complete opposite. I don't think he talked much, if at all, about his feelings with anyone. Probably because he assumed his feelings were in some way 'wrong'. When he speaks of his concerns, it seems more not about his own mixed emotions and more about how he doesn't understand why the previous Fandaniel would want to die because he couldn't understand his predecessors thinking. In real life, we have similar EOL discussions, but also we aren't immortal and free of sickness like the Ancients are so we're a bit different in that way. My grandmother passed away not from illness but simply because she was tired, and felt she had done all she could and wanted to do. I can't understand her decision myself, because I wasn't in her shoes.

Hermes couldn't imagine his predecessors' decision, because he wasn't in his boots. Hermes was basing his "why" question on his own feelings and how he understood things, rather than considering it from Fandanny1.0's perspective.

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Like, we know he had it boiling inside him. My logic is that it *had* to have come out in past conversations. I might be being overly charitable in my interpretation of him, but I do think we're meant to assume he has good reason to think that most other Ancients see nothing wrong with society's views on death and stewardship of new creations, rather than it just being in his head.

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And if one just does the MSQ with none of the side quests or going to Panda, or the short stories, then one might agree with Hermes at some level. But with all the extra information we get from side quests, Panda, and the short stories, it seems Hermes view of things is not 100% correct on the Ancient's views of death and stewardship. Or at least, what he believed the views of Elpis' researchers were might not have been the views of all Ancients.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

This is late and bothering me, but this is how testing in Elpis *worked.* The test he was having Meteion do was as if she was one of the testers in Elpis, and humans were the ones being tested.

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It's not, though? In the rare event they were testing something sapient, the testers always gave the tested the tools required for a fair chance at passing the test. In most cases, however, the entities they were testing had no greater intelligence than animals.

I think it's a correct (or at least valid) reading that Hermes was, in some way, not neurotypical or mentally healthy. He was fundamentally not thinking in the same ways as everyone else around him. I don't know what, if anything, I'd diagnose him with (a lot of people say depression, I don't think so), but I feel like modern Earth would find ways to help him cope with that and figure himself out.

...but he wasn't here with us, he was in Amaurot, a civilization that values conformity to an insane degree and isn't very good at grasping actual problems or alternative thoughts. I can't imagine that's a civilization with a terribly strong concept of mental health, so I'm not surprised at all that he wouldn't be inclined to share the feelings he knows aren't common. There's probably nowhere safe and understanding to even talk about it, and even if there is, I don't see Amaurot being a place that would treat someone well when they learn they're getting psychiatric help.

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Originally Posted by Manny_Maneater

"The creatures are a means of defense" is quite an utilitarian view of another being's life, isn't it? Why aren't those creatures lives worthy of living? Because Hermes deemed them less valuable than his answers? Regardless of wether you agree with that or not, Hermes had before manifested an extreme aversion to any loss of life. He almos had a breakdown over the death of a dangerous, uncontrolable beast. Yet, he backpaddled the moment it suited his needs. He did the exact same thing that he so despised on his peers.

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Even before the reports he was a bit of a hypocrite. He mourned the loss of the wolves but barely reacted to the victims of the beasts. He hated that beings that were seen as imperfect would be destroyed (and I do feel his view there I really do) yet was fine that monstrous beings got created at all...beings that would surely kill a lot in their time on the planet. Cutting the lifes and potential of their victims short, while they die in absolute pain and terror.

He hates how the Ancients view their creations but creates Meteion and her sisters soley for his own goals. And he sents them out into the unknown, all on their own, when Meteion cant even stand a simple argument. Never thought how it would feel for them, to fly around the vast space of the universe all on their own. Never really thought about the situation that they could find tragedy. So utterly naive in that regards.

And as you said, at the end he throws all these beasts at us without a care. Forces Meteion to connect to the hive mind and to give her reports even when she is in so much pain. And goes with her plan even when he knows what will happen...bringing doom and suffering not only to the Ancients (including the people he worked with for a long time..) but all their creations too..

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Hermes was on the verge of a mental breakdown, his life's work put in jeopardy, and his surrogate daughter figure put on the chopping block; I can understand why he was acting irrationally. Besides, letting aggressive predators out of their cages gave them a window of opportunity to live their best lives, non? /s

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I have a really hard time seeing that he was like a daughter to him. He was quite fine with sending his "daughters" out into the unknown space, where they would have to travel and do everything alone.

He was quite fine with forcing her to connect to the hivemind again after we caught her, even though she was in quite the pain before that. (And against her wishes too because Meteion herself did not want to say what her sisters had found)

And when she was forced to report the findings he let her continue just for his own sake. He might have remembered her in that instance but again Meteion did not even want to tell it to them and she was probably suffering while she was connected to the hive mind (so much that she later turned at the end of the dungeon).

For me there was never really much care for Meteion and her sisters after the reports started. All he wanted was to hear about their findings. (And I am not saying that he never really cared at all, but that this caring was never as much as the wish to find the answer)

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Originally Posted by vehere

The Elpis flower was mentioned to be rare even there, and I don't think he took people there to stand beside it and see what color it turns.

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Not only that but the flower also does not turn another color even with him and us being there. (When we first saw it) Only when we focus on our sadness does it change in the later scene. So it could also simply be that others do have these emotions but hide them away or are just simply happy in that moment.

I guess Hermes was just really naive. He himself was able to hide his pain enough that the color of the flowers did not change, yet seemingly never thought that others would be able to do that too? He also seemingly never once thought that other planets would not be peaceful at all.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Even before the reports he was a bit of a hypocrite. He mourned the loss of the wolves but barely reacted to the victims of the beasts. He hated that beings that were seen as imperfect would be destroyed (and I do feel his view there I really do) yet was fine that monstrous beings got created at all...beings that would surely kill a lot in their time on the planet. Cutting the lifes and potential of their victims short, while they die in absolute pain and terror.

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I think his view is more rooted in his displeasure with the Lykaons being made in such a way as to make their death a necessity. The Ancients were prone to creation on a whim, relying on fads or recent developments for inspiration. The result is no small few creations that simply cannot be allowed to exist, through no fault of their own. Hythlodaeus points to the same phenomenon when we encounter the walking shark, and Pandaemonium is the literal embodiment of how that impulse has given rise to cruelty. The fact that Lahabrea created multiple failed beings, whose destinies were to remain locked away and forgotten, for nothing else other than a desire for accomplishment, doesn’t speak well to their priorities.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

He hates how the Ancients view their creations but creates Meteion and her sisters soley for his own goals. And he sents them out into the unknown, all on their own, when Meteion cant even stand a simple argument. Never thought how it would feel for them, to fly around the vast space of the universe all on their own. Never really thought about the situation that they could find tragedy. So utterly naive in that regards.

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Naive and desperate I think. He did the interplanetary equivalent of a message in a bottle, and boy did that backfire.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

The fact that Lahabrea created multiple failed beings, whose destinies were to remain locked away and forgotten, for nothing else other than a desire for accomplishment, doesn’t speak well to their priorities.

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Bear in mind that Lahabrea was considered a nutjob even back then. He was just very good at what he did.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I think it's a correct (or at least valid) reading that Hermes was, in some way, not neurotypical or mentally healthy. He was fundamentally not thinking in the same ways as everyone else around him. I don't know what, if anything, I'd diagnose him with (a lot of people say depression, I don't think so), but I feel like modern Earth would find ways to help him cope with that and figure himself out.

...but he wasn't here with us, he was in Amaurot, a civilization that values conformity to an insane degree and isn't very good at grasping actual problems or alternative thoughts. I can't imagine that's a civilization with a terribly strong concept of mental health, so I'm not surprised at all that he wouldn't be inclined to share the feelings he knows aren't common. There's probably nowhere safe and understanding to even talk about it, and even if there is, I don't see Amaurot being a place that would treat someone well when they learn they're getting psychiatric help.

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It's worth pointing out that Amaurotine civilization is based heavily on the ideal society described in Plato's Republic. Along with the idea of being ruled by enlightened philosopher kings who would guide and ensure the city would prosper to benefit all (sounds kind of like the convocation). Another idea is that it is best if people take on the profession that they are best suited for, and if you are working in the field that suits you best, you will be happy, as a matter of axiomatic fact. And if the whole city is happy, then everyone on an individual basis will be happy.

Hermes contradicts this idea, by all appearances he appears to be highly talented and well respected by the researchers at Elpis, and loves his work and creations very dearly, he seems quite suited for the job. But he isn't happy. Amaurotine culture cannot reconcile that fact with how they believe happiness ought to operate. (And if I recall correctly, either Emet-Selch or Hythlodaeus suggest that maybe Hermes is not suited for working at Elpis, when they sense he might be unhappy.) To me it's not just that there is no strong concept of mental health and they value conformity, but that there are fundamental premises of the society Hermes lives in that make it impossible for him to even consider getting help. After all, there must be something wrong with him if he isn't happy.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I have a really hard time seeing that he was like a daughter to him. He was quite fine with sending his "daughters" out into the unknown space, where they would have to travel and do everything alone.

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On this point you need to differentiate the individual Meteion from the overall project.

He created the flock of Meteia and sent them into space as messengers, perhaps immediately with no time to get attached to them first (or identify the issues with their empthic abilities).

He kept one – and when she is an individual not connected to the hive mind he treats her like a daughter.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

On this point you need to differentiate the individual Meteion from the overall project.

He created the flock of Meteia and sent them into space as messengers, perhaps immediately with no time to get attached to them first (or identify the issues with their empthic abilities).

He kept one – and when she is an individual not connected to the hive mind he treats her like a daughter.

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So you're saying he had a favorite.

I mean, none of this makes him look like a good loving parent who truly cared for Meteion or the Meteia as individuals/thinking feeling beings in their own right. He still prioritized getting his answers over comforting Meteion, and still sent them off to become lonely despairing entities far away at the end of the universe when he didn't get the answer he wanted and decided that Man should be judged as it has judged other living beings, using the Meteia as tool in which to do such even though this would also lead to their destruction too.

Lets not forget that Meteion was in pain. Hermes did not care. He did not even care about 'his' Meteion being subsumed into the despairing hivemind and possibly lost forever. Because he got what he wanted out of them by that point.

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Originally Posted by vehere

So you're saying he had a favorite.

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No, I'm saying he created them, sent them all off, kept one out of necessity and then developed an attachment to it.

Also it's clear that her connecting to the hive mind is a regular, routine thing she does to provide status reports, before reverting to her individual childlike self. We've seen it happen at least twice. I think from Hermes' perspective it's just another one of those, and there's no good reason for her to be playing up when it's just a regular process she has performed many times before without issue.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

It's worth pointing out that Amaurotine civilization is based heavily on the ideal society described in Plato's Republic. Along with the idea of being ruled by enlightened philosopher kings who would guide and ensure the city would prosper to benefit all (sounds kind of like the convocation). Another idea is that it is best if people take on the profession that they are best suited for, and if you are working in the field that suits you best, you will be happy, as a matter of axiomatic fact. And if the whole city is happy, then everyone on an individual basis will be happy.

Hermes contradicts this idea, by all appearances he appears to be highly talented and well respected by the researchers at Elpis, and loves his work and creations very dearly, he seems quite suited for the job. But he isn't happy. Amaurotine culture cannot reconcile that fact with how they believe happiness ought to operate. (And if I recall correctly, either Emet-Selch or Hythlodaeus suggest that maybe Hermes is not suited for working at Elpis, when they sense he might be unhappy.) To me it's not just that there is no strong concept of mental health and they value conformity, but that there are fundamental premises of the society Hermes lives in that make it impossible for him to even consider getting help. After all, there must be something wrong with him if he isn't happy.

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Yeah, Amaurot is actually an interesting mashup of Plato's Republic and Atlantis, which was a society Plato invented to basically be the Goofus to the Republic's Gallant. Amaurot falls to its own flaws in the same ways that Atlantis fell to theirs.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Bear in mind that Lahabrea was considered a nutjob even back then. He was just very good at what he did.

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I'm noticing a rather concerning trend with Ancient society and putting nutjobs into positions of power and influence.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

On this point you need to differentiate the individual Meteion from the overall project.

He created the flock of Meteia and sent them into space as messengers, perhaps immediately with no time to get attached to them first (or identify the issues with their empthic abilities).

He kept one – and when she is an individual not connected to the hive mind he treats her like a daughter.

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So he still just created a big amount of creatures for his own goal. In that way he is no different to the others. Also he as leader should really know that new creatures should be tested. So if he had send them out without any deep testing then he truly is a hypocrite. And if he had tested them, then he must have really ignored their strong reactions to emotions.

And he also forced Meteion to connect to the hivemind even when she seemingly did not want to do it.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

No, I'm saying he created them, sent them all off, kept one out of necessity and then developed an attachment to it.

Also it's clear that her connecting to the hive mind is a regular, routine thing she does to provide status reports, before reverting to her individual childlike self. We've seen it happen at least twice. I think from Hermes' perspective it's just another one of those, and there's no good reason for her to be playing up when it's just a regular process she has performed many times before without issue.

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So he still creates beings for his own desire. For his own goal. Just like everyone else then. (And seemingly without any further testing unlike other Ancients)

Well when she was connected towards the end she was seemingly not fine. It ended even with her using her ability to hide. That alone should have told him that something was off. He still chased after her, still forced her to go continue her reports.

https://i.imgur.com/yNpXYwd.jpg

I apologize only for it being a strawman, it’s terrible quality I will never apologize for.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

They're both massive hypocrites. But then, so is nearly every other major character in the story. The WoL is quite a hypocrite themselves.

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Yes, I find this a poignant and quite amusing point given the circumstances. That is precisely why we mortals hate hypocrites so acutely, for who do you think they remind us so strongly of? The answer? Us.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

Do we really need to do the "Venat is awful" thing in every single thread?

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I apologize in advance for being petty, and yet I feel rather strongly this must be said.

Do we really need to do the "Emet-Selch and also every ancient ever (barring our lovely mommy Venat, of course) is the worst thing since Archon loaf" in every thread?

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I wasn't in the forums for Stormblood, but I feel like those perspectives in Stormblood were... rather different. At that point the line of 'Ascians and Garleans bad' was pretty simplistically put forward and not really refuted in the text, because the Pathos Trains hadn't come into the station yet. At that point it was like saying 'Nazis bad'; not exactly controversial.

The 'Venat bad' argument is just brutally simplifying and ignoring a genuine debate for... I dunno, the sake of being contrarian?

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No. No it is most certainly not. Every life has the right to fight for their lives, she took that away prematurely. In the end, her outcome worked out better the Emet's would have but if given the choice between the man who wants to restore life and the woman who told you all this shite about how she loved all life everywhere and then proceeded to give up on said life the moment we fucked off back to the future I'd choose him.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

A number of very strong reasons for this opinion have been put forward in the numerous debates over the subject throughout various threads. Only a handful of posters are just going "lol Venat bad," while the rest have made excellent points.

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Yes, it is rather intriguing that the Venat party is claiming reductionism on the side of their opponents and then proceeding to use reductionist reasoning to belittle the arguments the other side has made.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

Hermes contradicts this idea, by all appearances he appears to be highly talented and well respected by the researchers at Elpis, and loves his work and creations very dearly, he seems quite suited for the job. But he isn't happy. Amaurotine culture cannot reconcile that fact with how they believe happiness ought to operate. (And if I recall correctly, either Emet-Selch or Hythlodaeus suggest that maybe Hermes is not suited for working at Elpis, when they sense he might be unhappy.) To me it's not just that there is no strong concept of mental health and they value conformity, but that there are fundamental premises of the society Hermes lives in that make it impossible for him to even consider getting help. After all, there must be something wrong with him if he isn't happy.

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Hermes is clearly not at all suited to working on Elpis. He gets so incredibly attached to creations that doing his job and putting down one that is wildly violent practically throws him into a breakdown. It seems like the only part of it he liked was the raising of various animals, in which case he would have been better off in Loghrif's line of work.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

I apologize in advance for being petty, and yet I feel rather strongly this must be said.

Do we really need to do the "Emet-Selch and also every ancient ever (barring our lovely mommy Venat, of course) is the worst thing since Archon loaf" in every thread?

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Personally I actually like Emet-Selch as a character quite a lot and find his motivations and ideas to be highly sympathetic (even if I ultimately disagree with them).I have no idea why this false dichotomy that people who like Venat must hate Emet-Selch or the rest of the ancients comes from.

Personally, I like Venat and hate Emet-Selch, but not the rest of the Ancients as a whole because Hermes and Hesperos are great. So is Gaia if we want to count her, but I personally do not.

I also don't see many people coming in to completely unrelated threads to talk about how awful Emet-Selch is. Unlike Venat, where it has now reached the point where people come into threads to literally compare her to satan.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

I apologize in advance for being petty, and yet I feel rather strongly this must be said.

Do we really need to do the "Emet-Selch and also every ancient ever (barring our lovely mommy Venat, of course) is the worst thing since Archon loaf" in every thread?



No. No it is most certainly not. Every life has the right to fight for their lives, she took that away prematurely. In the end, her outcome worked out better the Emet's would have but if given the choice between the man who wants to restore life and the woman who told you all this shite about how she loved all life everywhere and then proceeded to give up on said life the moment we fucked off back to the future I'd choose him.

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This is Hermes's Thread. Considering significant factor of his "Fall" was refusal of others to acknowledge him, comments like those really gives credence to his response of "F%&k it! Everyone should just die!" :P

Focusing back on Hermes and Elpis, from our conversations with the researchers at Elpis he seemed pretty apt for the role. At most he’s said to be a quiet, but an invaluable resource and genius when it comes to creations. He’s also likely been doing it for a lot longer than the brief span we interact with him, the lykaons were probably the latest in a lonnnnggg line of concepts he’s had to put down. And when combined with the, well, trendy way Ancients often approached creation I could understand his frustration.

The distinction between hunting for food and hunting for the desire just to shoot something alive comes to mind.

He must have been incredibly good at his job, given that he was being considered for - and eventually was granted the role of Fandaniel. I don't think one bad day should be enough to disqualify him from that, especially considering how well respected he was both by people in other fields and the people working under him.