I thought people might be exaggerating about SMN

Summoner is so simple this meme hotbar macro setup is possible
https://youtu.be/h1Jl-_9e-xE?t=677

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I disagree, it feels a lot more active now. Although I only say this from experiencing pre-Endwalker Lv.50 Summoner and I thought the whole applying the whole dots game was kinda lame and boring. Comparing to how traditional FF Summoners are supposed to be I like that you get to spam all of their special attacks.

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Wait wait wait....you weren't even max level and you are trying to say its better to something you don't even know or played?

This is literally the problem

I find it amusing how people claim that Summoners rotation at 60 is "the same" as it is at 90 as though the majority of jobs don't also work like that.

By 60, 90% of the core job rotation is in place.
MCH is a perfect example. Between 60 and 90, All MCH gains for single target is Potency upgrades to existing parts of the rotation with the only major addition/alteration is being able to use Barrel Stablizer specifcially to handle Wildfire windows instead of needing to hold Heat for it.
You get exactly 1 GCD between 60 and 90.

Dragoon is quite similar, with the majority of its additions between 60 and 90 being upgrades to existing parts of the rotation. The only big change is the addition of Mirage Dive, which is mostlt just something that gets weaved into the existing GCD rotation.
So again, a job with 90% of its core rotation at 60.

Samurai as well. The only thing that gets added after 60 are big cooldowns or oGCDs to weave in. The only GCD addition is much like Machinist, with Ogi Namikiri added as a GCD at 90.
Hilariously, Monk has its entire rotation available at 60. Both of the big Blitz attacks just get upgrades at 90, with everything Monk gets between 60 and 90 being just trait upgrades. SSS doesn't really count as a rotational change, since it's only used in reaction to specific mechanics forcing you to disengage.

So please, Enlighten me as to which jobs undergo significant rotational changes between 60 and 90?
BLM might be the only one that i can think of, as all other jobs seem to just bolt on an extra GCD somewhere. But then again, BLM has a new rotation for just about every button it gains from level 15 onwards lol.
Everyone I've spoken to regarding Summoner has been praising it among my friend group.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

I find it amusing how people claim that Summoners rotation at 60 is "the same" as it is at 90 as though the majority of jobs don't also work like that.

By 60, 90% of the core job rotation is in place.
MCH is a perfect example. Between 60 and 90, All MCH gains for single target is Potency upgrades to existing parts of the rotation with the only major addition/alteration is being able to use Barrel Stablizer specifcially to handle Wildfire windows instead of needing to hold Heat for it.
You get exactly 1 GCD between 60 and 90.

Dragoon is quite similar, with the majority of its additions between 60 and 90 being upgrades to existing parts of the rotation. The only big change is the addition of Mirage Dive, which is mostlt just something that gets weaved into the existing GCD rotation.
So again, a job with 90% of its core rotation at 60.

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MCH is also criticized as being a braindead job after it received its lobotomy. That's a poor example to start with.

Old SMN's rotation went through bizarre changes across the levelling process due to the mishmash of interactions between its various systems-no other job works like that. Each job gives you a pretty clear idea of what you're suppose to be doing, and now Summoner also fits this pattern. I suppose this may be seen as "too easy" now that you don't have to look up on external sites how you're supposed to play the job properly.

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

Just saying the fisher job has more buttons to press and depth to it than Sum imo.

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LMAO true, unironically

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Originally Posted by Sylve

I find it amusing how people claim that Summoners rotation at 60 is "the same" as it is at 90 as though the majority of jobs don't also work like that.

By 60, 90% of the core job rotation is in place.
MCH is a perfect example. Between 60 and 90, All MCH gains for single target is Potency upgrades to existing parts of the rotation with the only major addition/alteration is being able to use Barrel Stablizer specifcially to handle Wildfire windows instead of needing to hold Heat for it.
You get exactly 1 GCD between 60 and 90.

Dragoon is quite similar, with the majority of its additions between 60 and 90 being upgrades to existing parts of the rotation. The only big change is the addition of Mirage Dive, which is mostlt just something that gets weaved into the existing GCD rotation.
So again, a job with 90% of its core rotation at 60.

Samurai as well. The only thing that gets added after 60 are big cooldowns or oGCDs to weave in. The only GCD addition is much like Machinist, with Ogi Namikiri added as a GCD at 90.
Hilariously, Monk has its entire rotation available at 60. Both of the big Blitz attacks just get upgrades at 90, with everything Monk gets between 60 and 90 being just trait upgrades. SSS doesn't really count as a rotational change, since it's only used in reaction to specific mechanics forcing you to disengage.

So please, Enlighten me as to which jobs undergo significant rotational changes between 60 and 90?
BLM might be the only one that i can think of, as all other jobs seem to just bolt on an extra GCD somewhere. But then again, BLM has a new rotation for just about every button it gains from level 15 onwards lol.
Everyone I've spoken to regarding Summoner has been praising it among my friend group.

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Ah but you see the classes you mention (barring MCH) are slightly more complicated than other classes so that makes the big brain people feel better playing them.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

MCH is also criticized as being a braindead job after it received its lobotomy. That's a poor example to start with.

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SAM is also a poor example as it's gauge is expanded upon in those 30 levels with increased and new ways to increase and manage it, and the new cooldowns augment its burst phases and timings even if it doesn't diverge significantly from the core of collecting sen and using iajutsu. SMN on the other hand from 60 to 90 adds one button to your burst phase, Enkindle demi (and searing on the 2mins), and one button to each primal. Nothing makes you reconsider any part of your rotation, it's just fluff.

DRG is even more baffling. More than one AoE GCD is nothing significant? Life of the Dragon isn't anything significant? Lance Mastery II and IV are basically as rotationally significant as all of the changes SMN gets from 60-90 barring Ifrit Astral Flow.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Yeah, if we wanted to spam one damage spell forever, we'd play a healer.

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That's gonna be a big oof.

Its the magical version of the MCH. Its been streamlined to be fast paced in both single and aoe attacks , with lots of breathing room for AWBC , mobility , ease of use to get into.

The old and unreliable clipping of slow pet attacks are now done automatically and fast paced and you now have direct control of bahumuts old autos .

It baffled me for a while then after a few hours i grew to really enjoy it and at 86 when you get the final egi spells you throw out so much double weaving the job should be renamed Arcane Weaver lol

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Yeah, if we wanted to spam one damage spell forever, we'd play a healer.

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https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...05/934/3a7.jpg

The tl;dr is this. If you did not like old SMN for whatever reason, and do not main SMN currently. You probably enjoy playing it now. It's simple to play, easy to setup hotbars for and flashy and cool for something you decide to queue on with friends or run around doing hunts on when you want to not have to think.

If you played the old SMN, mained the old SMN, or main the new SMN you find out very quickly that the rotation is unrewarding, partially from being so easy that every fight can be approached the same way, but mainly from how simple it is. Your big flashy animations don't feel as good once you realize you're using them every 15 seconds and they aren't a huge potency boost over your flavor of ruin you were casting just before. And the more time you spend on it, the more boring it gets because there's nothing dynamic to fights, and since we have instant casts for at least every 50 of 60 seconds there's little need to worry about trying to finish a spell or being a greedyboi to dodge mechanics. Also we've ironically lost ruin II as the backup "oh crap i need to move a lot and burned my instants already" which is kind of funny to me.

I think samurai casts more than summoner right now, or at least as many times, which is hilarious.

I like it. It’s not perfect but it feels the closest it’s ever been to what an actual FF summoner is. Dot Mage in ARR may have felt a bit more complex but it’s not what a summoner should be.

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Originally Posted by MrPresident

I like it. It’s not perfect but it feels the closest it’s ever been to what an actual FF summoner is. Dot Mage in ARR may have felt a bit more complex but it’s not what a summoner should be.

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SMN has never had one single identity over the entire history of FF as they almost always had another job class. In 5 you got to choose that sub job, in 3 there are actually two summoning jobs. The actual summoner and the Evoker (and technically sage but it's the omnicaster). XIV's summoner has actually always been closer to Evoker from 3, than any other SMN in the series with the mixed usage of damage and support skills. Maybe they should have just called it Evoker to start with and people wouldn't have been getting upset over it for a decade. Or people could have just accepted that it was another new incarnation of the job, like all previous ones. I don't see people crying about Sage not knowing every white and black magic spell in XIV afterall.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

The tl;dr is this...If you played the old SMN, mained the old SMN, or main the new SMN you find out very quickly that the rotation is unrewarding,

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Maybe this is because I main a healer, but I actually find the whole SMN rotation fun. It's been a long while since I played a DPS that I actually had fun with the rotation more than felt like I was working around it, but I'll readily admit I have a very Healer focused mindset while playing and generally have not done especially well when playing a DPS.

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

Is it popular based on it's merits, or is it simply being used a lot because it's the class that got the most changes?

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It's simply easier to use than the other casters, and easier to use than any other Job than DNC. Of course it will be played heavily. People who are new and less experienced want to be able to contribute on a Job too. So now they have SMN.

Also, the revamp makes sense, since anybody coming into the game from outside expects a Final Fantasy Job to actually resemble a Final Fantasy Job, and not Warlock from WOW.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

SMN has never had one single identity over the entire history of FF as they almost always had another job class. In 5 you got to choose that sub job, in 3 there are actually two summoning jobs. The actual summoner and the Evoker (and technically sage but it's the omnicaster). XIV's summoner has actually always been closer to Evoker from 3, than any other SMN in the series with the mixed usage of damage and support skills. Maybe they should have just called it Evoker to start with and people wouldn't have been getting upset over it for a decade. Or people could have just accepted that it was another new incarnation of the job, like all previous ones. I don't see people crying about Sage not knowing every white and black magic spell in XIV afterall.

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Because unlike pre-6.0 SMN, Sage isn't a horribly designed job with conflicting systems that ultimately caused so many problems that the devs gave up on it. It's a healer that has more damage skills, which people like. In the end while it can't use both black and white magic they were able to provide an experience that a lot of people are presently enjoying, just like new SMN.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

MCH is also criticized as being a braindead job after it received its lobotomy. That's a poor example to start with.

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You pin pointed MCH but he talked about Drg too.

So, then it's okay to resemble a Warlock from Dungeons and Dragons then? So, you must have a problem with Reaper as well?

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

Hyperbole much?

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SMN is apparently a one button cannon now.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Summoner is presently the most popular caster on both NA and EU, beaten on JP by Red Mage. It's clear that straightforward job designs without unnecessary bloat are what people gravitate towards to. The job isn't dead by any means.

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Of course it’s popular like every new class , we got 3 new classes and ew smn is also new, yoshi-p own words, it has nothing to do with the old smn anymore. So people like to try the new class out.

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Originally Posted by Quintessa

SMN is apparently a one button cannon now.

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You can do that with any class specially if you use addon's like dalamude that turn your combos into 1 button.

When people complain that summoner is to simple, I never see anyone give an example of a class that is complicated because the classes in this game are fairly simple. Old summoner was not complicated either, it just suffered from button bloat something a lot of classes still suffer from in this game. Where are the complaints about GBR continuation becoming 2 buttons? Why aren't people complaining that PLD new combo is just confiteor x4?

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

When people complain that summoner is to simple, I never see anyone give an example of a class that is complicated because the classes in this game are fairly simple. Old summoner was not complicated either, it just suffered from button bloat something a lot of classes still suffer from in this game. Where are the complaints about GBR continuation becoming 2 buttons? Why aren't people complaining that PLD new combo is just confiteor x4?

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Take RDM on a boss battle, for example. The job's rotation consists in building a gauge of sorts through a series of black and white spells in a systematic way, optimizing that with Accelerate. After the gauge reaches a certain point you change to a melee combo that, in doing it right, gives you access to stronger spells that has to be done in succession (the first one can choose between Verflare or Verholy). If you somehow break that chain of the rotation you may lose your combo and strong spells.

It goes without saying that to play RDM optimally, you have to use your skills accordingly and also have to plan them around more engaging fights. And there are other DPS jobs that also have rotations with the same logic to them, more or less.

The current SMN has no depth to his skills whatsoever. It's "Bahamut > 3 Summons > Phoenix > 3 Summons > repeat"... No build up to something for using the 3 summons, nothing. You're even encoraged to skip one or more of the 3 summons if Bahamut/Phoenix comes from CD before using all 3 for whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by Dahlinea

Take RDM on a boss battle, for example. The job's rotation consists in building a gauge of sorts through a series of black and white spells in a systematic way, optimizing that with Accelerate. After the gauge reaches a certain point you change to a melee combo that, in doing it right, gives you access to stronger spells that has to be done in succession (the first one can choose between Verflare or Verholy). If you somehow break that chain of the rotation you may lose your combo and strong spells.

It goes without saying that to play RDM optimally, you have to use your skills accordingly and also have to plan them around more engaging fights. And there are other DPS jobs that also have rotations with the same logic to them, more or less.

The current SMN has no depth to his skills whatsoever. It's "Bahamut > 3 Summons > Phoenix > 3 Summons > repeat"... No build up to something for using the 3 summons, nothing. You're even encoraged to skip one or more of the 3 summons if Bahamut/Phoenix comes from CD before using all 3 for whatever reason.

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Your using one of the easiest to play classes as your example of a complicated class.

Personally I am really disappointed by this new brain dead ew smn, I am trying to be open minded and still give smn a change as I am a mono class player, I started leveling my smn 6 months ago from 1-80 and had a huge blast with it I felt I improved every day, played with other smn players who did way more damage and analyzed there rotation and spell casting and asked for advise. Spend a huge time at the dummy’s trying to get my perfect rotation.

Then ew happened and after removing almost all my spells the first hour of my crossbar and looking at what was left I got a feeling this can be a destructive change. But the beta reviewers still said it was a good and I promised myself to be open minded, I did msq and with the very limited fights we got it didn’t feel that bad.

Until after msq I started duty roulette and noticed how extremely simplistic smn has become especially in low level roulettes, I was honestly completely in disbelief that they changed so much in a class without people outcrying wtf, about what did happen to there beloved class. Why did all my fellow players even play smn, if se was under the impression that nobody liked pre ew smn. Did they really play a class they do not like. And why doesn’t anybody feel that this simplified play style is extremely boring ?.

And honestly I am still in disbelief that se and apparently a huge part of the ffxiv community thinks it’s ok to remove a class in ffxiv replace it with something completely different, go from a challenging play style to a extremely simple play style and change it from a top dps to a low end dps class. Why did they not just introduce a third new class if they feel people would like a brain dead job and tweaked smn to keep it challenging.

Maybe it’s because I am a old fart with a long history of playing mmorpg in which this huge extreme changes to peoples favorite characters with whom they spend a huge amount of time where completely unacceptable, that i personally am this upset about it. And also as most of these thread seems to fill up with people who like the new smn and say that my smn I had such a blast with before was a absolute shitty job makes me even more upset at this extremely single minded view because everyone who played smn before patch did like there job as why would they play it other wise and I definitely was not alone at 80.

In the end I play less and less ffxiv, it’s truly disappointing as I had a amazing time with the old smn, I am still hoping on a miracle that will salvage smn but the current smn get’s boring very quickly and to make it worse there is almost no room for improvement.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Your using one of the easiest to play classes as your example of a complicated class.

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The fact that your "easiest to play class" is way more complex than SMN right now is in itself a problem already.

Well it’s actually a FF summoner now instead of a pseudo WoW warlock. And what should it even look like if not like this, summoner in FF didn’t even exist, it was just whoever guy you slapped the materia/GF/whatever on, using it for one burst, which is exactly what it is now in FF14.

And the base job of all characters that had affinity to summons throughout the series were healers anyway (Garnet/Yuna etc)

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Originally Posted by Kandraxx

Well it’s actually a FF summoner now instead of a pseudo WoW warlock. And what should it even look like if not like this, summoner in FF didn’t even exist, it was just whoever guy you slapped the materia/GF/whatever on, using it for one burst, which is exactly what it is now in FF14.

And the base job of all characters that had affinity to summons throughout the series were healers anyway (Garnet/Yuna etc)

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Personally I do not completely understand the pre ew ff summoner was not a summoner motivation, and it’s upsetting to me, it sounds like ffxiv has had 10 years long a wrong smn class in there game, and after 10 years they corrected this by just removing the class without any apology just a almost jokingly comment that there will be 3 new classes. I found this extremely odd especially in Japan culture and I def didn’t laugh.

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

To each their own, I guess. I think it's garbage.

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You're free to believe that and that's okay, but you are providing some pretty flawed logic in this thread. "It's dead" doesn't exactly earn you credibility, especially when there are more SMNs now than ever before.

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

Nope. The job is dead. I must have gone through the skill list at least a dozen times trying to figure out what I was missing because I actually had empty slots. I honestly don't know how it went live like this.

I know people complained about the original complexity, but damn talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. They went to such an extreme in the opposite direction I could almost set a metronome to the button presses. Now easily the most mind-numbingly boring job in the game.

Also it feels like physik is bugged because it says 400 potency but heals seem to be a fraction of that value.

I actually regret having leveled the job now.

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The job is dead*

*more popular than ever

Your tastes != the entire playerbase. Lots of people like the very sparse rotation with the flashy animations.

I think the worst sin is just the simplicity. I think fantasy wise it's 10x better but gameplaywise I can't stand how boring it is, even at 90. It feels like this is just the core and they are saving the cool stuff for future expansions, AKA we have the ARR version of SMN currently available and are waiting for the HW, StB and ShB additions.

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Originally Posted by kejakalope

The job is dead*

*more popular than ever

Your tastes != the entire playerbase. Lots of people like the very sparse rotation with the flashy animations.

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Off course it’s popular it’s the third new class introduced in ew the other 2 new classes are popular also so what’s your point ?

Personally, I do think it's too simple now, but on the other hand it works with nearly zero jank (shields should be available whenever IMO) which is more than old SMN can say.

I think its a good foundation. Personally, I think next expac should add shiva, ramuh, and leviathan as the summons post pheonix. And they should go wild with both the post summon attacks. Make them each do completely different things.

I can understand people that liked the previous summoner being upset. That being said there isn't really anything wrong with a class being easy. If you find it boring or don't enjoy it there are 18 other classes you can try to find something the fits your gameplay style more.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I can understand people that liked the previous summoner being upset. That being said there isn't really anything wrong with a class being easy. If you find it boring or don't enjoy it there are 18 other classes you can try to find something the fits your gameplay style more.

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I heard almost exactly this for over a decade in WoW until pretty much every class had no depth or identity left. It's one of the reasons I left that game for good and I don't want to see that happen here.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I can understand people that liked the previous summoner being upset. That being said there isn't really anything wrong with a class being easy. If you find it boring or don't enjoy it there are 18 other classes you can try to find something the fits your gameplay style more.

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yeah yeah, try another job. what other job is like ShB summoner pray tell? Have to narrow it down to casters immediately, you recommend RDM? BLM? Probably a tough question to answer seeing as nothing was or is like old SMN. This "try another job" garbage is just people deflecting criticism for a company that doesn't deserve the defense. They knew they'd catch the flak from the rework they aren't stupid, why do you feel the need to defend them? Do you really think they'll revert anything? You're obfuscating player opinion for nearly no reason.

The main issue was that the previous version of Summoner was so complex that it was completely unapproachable to a good number of players, myself included.

New SMN may be simple but everyone can understand and play it, and I think that was the goal.

Personally, I think it's fun and interesting but I can see why people are upset.

Hopefully they build upon this new foundation and it regains some of the complexity it had before eventually.

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Originally Posted by mathias-merodach

So, then it's okay to resemble a Warlock from Dungeons and Dragons then? So, you must have a problem with Reaper as well?

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local man lines up, takes shot, misses wildly, blows out window of own car

I want the silly phoenix excog replaced with an actual cool flashy dmg skill and some potency buffs so it is above RDM where it should be and the job is pretty perfect for me. I love the new summons and am interested to see what they add in the next expansion for it.

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Originally Posted by XmissionsX

Personally I do not completely understand the pre ew ff summoner was not a summoner motivation, and it’s upsetting to me, it sounds like ffxiv has had 10 years long a wrong smn class in there game, and after 10 years they corrected this by just removing the class without any apology just a almost jokingly comment that there will be 3 new classes. I found this extremely odd especially in Japan culture and I def didn’t laugh.

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They did. That's exactly correct. They had a mis-labeled job in the game for 8 years.

Your grievances are the ones I feel the most for in the thread. The job you liked wasn't really anything like a summoner, but it's legit to have really enjoyed its play cadence. It sucks that you had to lose that job so that the game could deliver on the summoner all the old-school FF fans wanted from day one. I hope that in 7.0 we get a new caster with a smoother DoT-based playstyle, purpose-built for the fiction to represent the rotation, to replace what got taken away from you.