Healers, not required. (EW SPOILERS)

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

So glad it works for you. I see an AOE, and I'm out of it ON MY SCREEN, and still get hit. This happens dozens of times to more people than just me. And if you pre-emptively move, before you see the AOE, then you can get hit by a different attack or forget to hit your combo.

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Happens to me all the time and it's infuriating.

I remember the good old days of Titan hard...back when hard meant hard and not story. Where you could be in another zone and still get hit by the bloody landslide.

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Originally Posted by BrokentoothMarch

That's not how this works at all. Unless you intend to say a healer is only identified by their heal. Is this true? Then let's just rip that pesky damage spell and DoT they have. Shields? Haha, that's not a heal. Out you go. Buffs? Unless that buff makes HP go zoom, it should be shoved into the shredder and fed yet to another DPS as they are want to do.

What an insipid argument. There's plenty of reasons this proves little, but to say "If you have no healers, no heals allowed" is almost mind-numbingly insulting. It's this notion that healers and healing are so fundamentally married that one simply cannot exist without the other that has made the healing class able to be played to utter perfection by some primitive bot. If people can survive without healers because they have their own heals, that's a reality you can't modify to satisfy your snarky belief.

I'm positive you are very graceful and proud in your ability to press two buttons. Maybe, when you're feeling spicy, even THREE. But let's not pretend like healers have, ever had, or will ever have a monopoly on healing.

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im not reading all of that but happy for you. or sad that happened.

anyways...

When I was leveling up I remember dying to a couple of boss fights with the boss still being above 50% health. To my surprise, the group did just fine healing up without me. Felt pretty bad.

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

...I'm done with you.

This is why the devs don't cater to your kind.

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Tbh I wish the developers would add more vulnerability stack mechanics into the game or even instant death mechanics. Players need to learn to respect mechanics and take into account their own limitations.

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

So glad it works for you. I see an AOE, and I'm out of it ON MY SCREEN, and still get hit. This happens dozens of times to more people than just me. And if you pre-emptively move, before you see the AOE, then you can get hit by a different attack or forget to hit your combo.

Dunno about the rest of you but I still look at my hotbar when fighting, I have not and probably will not memorize the buttons to where I don't have to. (Summoner was muscle memory but not new summoner and reaper is a definite no for muscle memory.)

Those people expecting this are elitests and way less than the number you gave.

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Thats because you gotta move before the marker.

You get used to it.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Tbh I wish the developers would add more vulnerability stack mechanics into the game or even instant death mechanics. Players need to learn to respect mechanics and take into account their own limitations.

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They need to go back to the Damage Down debuffs instead of the Vulnerability up debuffs. Stop punishing healers for other players mistakes.

I did the new raid yesterday. On the first fight my co-healer got disconnected almost right away. They never came back due to queue times. I proceeded to solo heal the entire fight when it was my very first attempt. Though to be fair the telegraphs are obvious so everyone did the mechanics properly the entire time.

I'm pretty sure there'll be Savage fights that can be done without healers as well. FF14 has ever had the issue of too little unavoidable damage because the healing classes are too simplistic in design to deal with anything more in a way that feels actually engaging. AoE heals heal everyone, single target heals heal single targets, HoTs have no extra interaction, 2.5 sec GCD means it's almost impossible to design fights around reactive healing, and DPS/tank classes are getting more and more healing tools that are powerful. I haven't beat my friend (WAR) on healing a single dungeon yet on WHM because it's not needed, and on SGE I did through Kardia which was entirely unnecessary healing but hey, may as well have it up.

Even avoidable damage is designed not to be outhealed due to vulnerability stacks, because they know if those didn't exist, people could stand in literally everything that doesn't 1-shot you and the healers can deal with it (at the cost of their dps).

Especially the current EX trials are absolute jokes though. There's basically nothing going on if people dodge mechanics that people themselves can't outheal/passively regen.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

They need to go back to the Damage Down debuffs instead of the Vulnerability up debuffs. Stop punishing healers for other players mistakes.

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I am fervently hoping that the savage tier continues to use damage down; it was refreshing to see DPS actually care about doing mechanics properly. ;)

Though I admit, I actually rather liked the Delubrum Reginae "Twice-Come Ruin" (or the savage variant's "Thrice-Come Ruin"). It was forgiving -- screw up a mechanic and you were put on probation rather than instantly vuln stack'd or damage down'd. But repeatedly mess up a mechanic and you just plain died. No "the healer should've healed me through this", you just get Doom and you're gone.

It was like the perfect combination -- to my taste, at least -- of forgiving ("Okay, you screwed this up once; you're on probation, buddy") and unforgiving ("Welp, you die now.").

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Originally Posted by lezard21

Well, players have this notion that healing is hard and requires skill.

While that might once have been true, healing has been baby-fied into one button press for full HP job ever since ShB. Yet people still complain that healing gives them teh anxioteh and "single pull plz", and those are the players Yoshi-P and the dev team listen to the most and thus keep dumbifying the job even more and making fights easier and giving you Ultra Echo.

So indeed if they get removed good riddance. Just turn them into another DPS class and have everyone be responsible for their own Hp, it would make it all the more easier for being able to tell who to invite for raids and who not.

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Dude, didn't you quit the game?

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I am fervently hoping that the savage tier continues to use damage down; it was refreshing to see DPS actually care about doing mechanics properly. ;)

Though I admit, I actually rather liked the Delubrum Reginae "Twice-Come Ruin" (or the savage variant's "Thrice-Come Ruin"). It was forgiving -- screw up a mechanic and you were put on probation rather than instantly vuln stack'd or damage down'd. But repeatedly mess up a mechanic and you just plain died. No "the healer should've healed me through this", you just get Doom and you're gone.

It was like the perfect combination -- to my taste, at least -- of forgiving ("Okay, you screwed this up once; you're on probation, buddy") and unforgiving ("Welp, you die now.").

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Considering they reused Twice-Come Ruin for the second part of E12S, I wouldn't be surprised if it shows up at some point in Pandaemonium savage.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Considering they reused Twice-Come Ruin for the second part of E12S, I wouldn't be surprised if it shows up at some point in Pandaemonium savage.

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I think the debuff in E10S that turned into Doom if you screwed up voidgates was actually also Twice-Come Ruin, though I might be misremembering. So, yeah, I fully expect it to show up in Pandaemonium savage at some point, even if it doesn't in this specific tier.

But in both E10S and E12S, it was in response to a specific mechanic being failed; in Delubrum Reginae it was to any mechanic being failed, so functionally taking the place of vuln stacks (as used in most content) or damage down (as used in Eden savage).

Despite how impressive that group is, it does not represent the common player. When I did zodiark I marked myself and one of the tanks as we had the fight figured out. Still took 2 or 3 tries cause a few outliners were running off into bfe. They eventually snapped around and stuck to us like everyone else.

To be fair, while I understand why they went with damage downs. It felt great to give the orb mechanic in e10s the middle finger with shielding.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

They need to go back to the Damage Down debuffs instead of the Vulnerability up debuffs. Stop punishing healers for other players mistakes.

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I could also get behind that, though I still do fall into the camp that prefers instant death or Vulnerability stacks. Though I like when groups try make my job harder as a healer, brings me great joy.

My policy is very simple: I heal enough that you will survive mechanic. You are free to eat vul stack as long as it doesn't kill you. If you eat more stack than normal healing would keep you up ... that's not my problem.

The only reason people greed in this game is for fflogs, not for clear. So if they greed and die, they can cry about their parse as they wait to get up, because I ain't pop them up without swift cast.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I am fervently hoping that the savage tier continues to use damage down; it was refreshing to see DPS actually care about doing mechanics properly. ;)

Though I admit, I actually rather liked the Delubrum Reginae "Twice-Come Ruin" (or the savage variant's "Thrice-Come Ruin"). It was forgiving -- screw up a mechanic and you were put on probation rather than instantly vuln stack'd or damage down'd. But repeatedly mess up a mechanic and you just plain died. No "the healer should've healed me through this", you just get Doom and you're gone.

It was like the perfect combination -- to my taste, at least -- of forgiving ("Okay, you screwed this up once; you're on probation, buddy") and unforgiving ("Welp, you die now.").

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If I remember correctly twice come ruin in delubrum also gave a damage down according to the tooltip on the debuff but I have no idea how much.

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Originally Posted by OtakuSempai

"some of"

I knew there was gonna be at least one of you.

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You'd lump it in with "some of"? Okay.....I guess.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

If I remember correctly twice come ruin in delubrum also gave a damage down according to the tooltip on the debuff but I have no idea how much.

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Hrm. I don't remember it doing so, but I'll be honest that I'm not absolutely certain of that. I'm mostly certain it didn't in Eden savage -- you got the damage down debuff independently of Twice-Come Ruin if you screwed up a mechanic, I seem to recall -- and I assumed they'd just literally used the same debuff. But like I said, I may be mistaken.

I am like 98% positive that Thrice-Come Ruin in Delubrum savage didn't, but maybe that was only because it didn't have a timer. (I.e., you only got to screw up twice, period, across an entire fight before it just nuked you.)

but, healing is basically all i do....I...I like to heal and to be challenged when i am doing it. :(

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

So glad it works for you. I see an AOE, and I'm out of it ON MY SCREEN, and still get hit. This happens dozens of times to more people than just me. And if you pre-emptively move, before you see the AOE, then you can get hit by a different attack or forget to hit your combo.

Dunno about the rest of you but I still look at my hotbar when fighting, I have not and probably will not memorize the buttons to where I don't have to. (Summoner was muscle memory but not new summoner and reaper is a definite no for muscle memory.)

Those people expecting this are elitests and way less than the number you gave.

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Mechincs over DPS ALWAYS!

If you have to dodge early and miss out on your rotation to avoid damage or dying.. DO IT! Your damage is nothing if your dead!

We need

damage down for DPS

vulnerability up for tank

Heal down for healers

For savage fight.

I really don’t care about extreme being done without healer. Savage should has one shot mechanics more often.

On failed mechanics. Why the healer should be punished if dps can’t carry it’s own weights.

I mean you can go in with 1 tank and all healers too...DPS not needed? They took 3 dancers for that and the pld helped heal...one healer would have been far more efficient lol

Savage should have damage down not one shot, one shot mechanics just make healing more useless. Why need a heals if any sort of mess up kills them? RDM can raise.

They need more stuff like titan from back in the day, aoe raid wide dmg often.

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Originally Posted by Genbe197

Savage should have damage down not one shot, one shot mechanics just make healing more useless. Why need a heals if any sort of mess up kills them? RDM can raise.

They need more stuff like titan from back in the day, aoe raid wide dmg often.

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Well one shot is damage down indirectly ,as you get the debuff on rez and team won’t pass the dps check.

Tankcob was a thing, so Clemency must be removed then?

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Tbh I wish the developers would add more vulnerability stack mechanics into the game or even instant death mechanics. Players need to learn to respect mechanics and take into account their own limitations.

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I am ok with this but they need to add an extra second to move for those. As it is now, I have too pre-move to meet some mechanics and if I guess wrong… harder fights sure, but more time in the telegraphs or have the server and client talk before killing me and less snapshotting. I don’t like being on the other side of the arena and still being considered as on the wrong side.

That EX is an absolute joke and literally only has 5-6 unavoidable raidwides in the entire fight depending on how fast you kill it.

That's 5-6 raidwides over the space of 8+ minutes, split between 2 healers who both have a huge kit of healing tools. It's no surprise healers are of less use. The second EX and Normal raids aren't much better, they'll feel chaotic while you're learning them because being hit by avoidable mechanics hurts or kills you, but once you and your group learn the fight you start to realize the actual unavoidable damage is very rare while healing toolkits have only become stronger.

We're going down a bad path. They completely ignored healer requests for more damage to heal and have actually reduced it. This is shaping up to be by far the easiest and most boring expansion for healing yet.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I am ok with this but they need to add an extra second to move for those. As it is now, I have too pre-move to meet some mechanics and if I guess wrong… harder fights sure, but more time in the telegraphs or have the server and client talk before killing me and less snapshotting. I don’t like being on the other side of the arena and still being considered as on the wrong side.

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That is fair, I cannot speak for latency issues being as I have never really experienced any outside of the rare hiccup and that is mostly a product of my ISP doing maintenance.

This is why MMORPG's like Dark Age of Camelot and Everquest were superior. Your roles did what your roles did.

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Originally Posted by Genbe197

I mean you can go in with 1 tank and all healers too...DPS not needed? They took 3 dancers for that and the pld helped heal...one healer would have been far more efficient lol

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The dancers healed with an OGCD.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I am fervently hoping that the savage tier continues to use damage down; it was refreshing to see DPS actually care about doing mechanics properly. ;)

Though I admit, I actually rather liked the Delubrum Reginae "Twice-Come Ruin" (or the savage variant's "Thrice-Come Ruin"). It was forgiving -- screw up a mechanic and you were put on probation rather than instantly vuln stack'd or damage down'd. But repeatedly mess up a mechanic and you just plain died. No "the healer should've healed me through this", you just get Doom and you're gone.

It was like the perfect combination -- to my taste, at least -- of forgiving ("Okay, you screwed this up once; you're on probation, buddy") and unforgiving ("Welp, you die now.").

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Problem with those instant death things in Bojza is they completely negated the Honors for Healing and HP and made 10 stacks of Damage Honors king.

What's the point of extra HP and healing if someone is going to die in 2 hits?

Honestly I think they should tie healers as a job to specific mechanics in dungeons and trials. I remember this boss in Tera when healer had to aggro multiple trash packs and run in circles around the arena trying to dodge mobs' attacks while simultaneously healing their party members. This felt very engaging and fun, every dungeon you had to do your specific thing thus making a healer relevant no matter what.

Now, whether it would be considered fun by ffxiv players I don't know, but it's definitely an alternative if we're not trying to change healers as a job. Sure, you can have your one button dmg spell and 2 buttons for healing, but you also have to do this specific mechanic that nobody else would do.

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Originally Posted by OtakuSempai

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1qL4y1J7Mh
(EX Trial 1)

Healers are no longer required in some of the supposedly hardest content in the game.

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Thx... now i feel even more like a piece of garbage when im playing DRK.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

It is quite ironic how Squeenix fails to design proper Healer and Tank Jobs, and yet have the audacity to say "do some Devs even play their own Games?"

There are ALOT of ways to fix the issues on both Healers and Tanks. Everyone here who has experienced multiple MMOs in his life, knows that normally, Specialist Roles such as Healers and Tanks, arent suppoest to be generalized down to the bare bones.

- I think its stupid Game design that every Job has Party Utilities that should normally be in the hands if Healer and Support classes (like Bard, DNC and RDM).
- It is also stupid that RDM and SMN have access to the same Res Skill as Healers have (which destroys another aspect of the main duty of Healers). IF Res should be inplimented into another Class outside of the Healer Role, it should be alot more restricted, like having a 2-5Min CD and that it cannot be swift-/dualcasted.
- Tanks being now way too beefy, renders Healers completely unnecessary. Bloodwhetting/Heart of Corundum aside (which are way too potent), Tanks already had too many ways of the same type of dmg mitigation, and the more they get, the less Healers get something to do (cut the amount of Tank CD's that reduce dmg by X amount in half and give Tanks a "Parry Skill" that isnt straight up broken. For example, -10% dmg reduction for 4-6sec for the next attack recieved, but if you dont get hit by anything during that time and it wears off, u recieve +10% dmg for the same amount of time, also on GCD)
- If you want Healers to be healing properly, then give them actual Skills that actually compliment their other Skills in their Kit more, instead of giving them simple black and white fashioned abilities. This is a MMORPG, not Dragon Quest.

Also, Get yourself a proper Team for Job design and remove the people who currently do it. Youre failing for 3 Expansions in a Row now and it is only getting worse. The fact that Healers have to deal with this mess for another 2-3 Years at least, is just Unfair.

Tl;dr: Dont design Tanks and Healers, if you dont play Tank or Healer in MMOs.

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Finally someone in this thread who understands the post. Healers are badly designed and the fact that the video is even possible is all the proof there needs.

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Originally Posted by Haseno

This is why MMORPG's like Dark Age of Camelot and Everquest were superior. Your roles did what your roles did.

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And this is all I want. Not sure why so many people in this thread feel the need to be such contrarians on this topic.

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Originally Posted by Theox

Honestly I think they should tie healers as a job to specific mechanics in dungeons and trials. I remember this boss in Tera when healer had to aggro multiple trash packs and run in circles around the arena trying to dodge mobs' attacks while simultaneously healing their party members. This felt very engaging and fun, every dungeon you had to do your specific thing thus making a healer relevant no matter what.

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Manaya's Core right? One of my favorite healer's experiences in an MMO. I wish we could have stuff like this in FF14.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I am fervently hoping that the savage tier continues to use damage down; it was refreshing to see DPS actually care about doing mechanics properly. ;)

Though I admit, I actually rather liked the Delubrum Reginae "Twice-Come Ruin" (or the savage variant's "Thrice-Come Ruin"). It was forgiving -- screw up a mechanic and you were put on probation rather than instantly vuln stack'd or damage down'd. But repeatedly mess up a mechanic and you just plain died. No "the healer should've healed me through this", you just get Doom and you're gone.

It was like the perfect combination -- to my taste, at least -- of forgiving ("Okay, you screwed this up once; you're on probation, buddy") and unforgiving ("Welp, you die now.").

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I'd argue that twice come ruin was lazy and ruined Delubrum because it killed all options but pure damage builds, it would make sense if it was on certain mechanics but it was on literally everything including the most mundane attacks from the trash minibosses.

The debuff was less of a punishment for messing up mechanics and more like if a GM used the console to force kill you because you messed up.

This fight doesn't have any sort of heal check. If all party members use mitigation tools properly (This includes self & party healing abilities). The healers would barely need to lift a finger.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

That EX is an absolute joke and literally only has 5-6 unavoidable raidwides in the entire fight depending on how fast you kill it.

That's 5-6 raidwides over the space of 8+ minutes, split between 2 healers who both have a huge kit of healing tools. It's no surprise healers are of less use. The second EX and Normal raids aren't much better, they'll feel chaotic while you're learning them because being hit by avoidable mechanics hurts or kills you, but once you and your group learn the fight you start to realize the actual unavoidable damage is very rare while healing toolkits have only become stronger.

We're going down a bad path. They completely ignored healer requests for more damage to heal and have actually reduced it. This is shaping up to be by far the easiest and most boring expansion for healing yet.

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Bro, they design for the casual audience and they can barely keep up currently so I doubt that they are going to drop something like Living Liquid TES version on them to absolutely destroy them.