Summoner doesn't feel like it Summons.

Before we had actual summons that could be commanded. Now it's just a ruin mage with different flavors of ruin.

I'm personally in love with this summoner. You get the best of both worlds, one where the summons do a big attack then leaves and where Phoenix and Bahamut stays on the filed for a time.
And I don't get why people say they want it to be more challenging. you have plenty of challenging jobs. Less trivial is not always a bad thing, might just mean the job isn't for you.
I really hope they never change SMN from this, because it's always has been what I've envisioned since release.

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Originally Posted by Vivix

Before we had actual summons that could be commanded. Now it's just a ruin mage with different flavors of ruin.

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The thing is, its not that the whole Pet Job idea was bad (except in execution on Squeenix part) in itself, but it was not a Final Fantasy Summoner which are known for their fashy big summons.

If any Job should become a proper Pet Job like SMN used to be, i think it should be MCH, because of its similarities to the Puppetmaster Job in FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

The thing is, its not that the whole Pet Job idea was bad (except in execution on Squeenix part) in itself, but it was not a Final Fantasy Summoner which are known for their fashy big summons.

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This has been pointed out at multiple points throughout this thread (and others) to be untrue; pretty much every main line game from FFX onwards (except XV) had some sort of Pet Job-esque gameplay, and the still managed to be flashy just fine. That's 20 years of History people keep ignoring.
Making Summoner a Pet job was perfectly valid based on the jobs history

I feel people tend to be too laser focused on the whole "Egi too smol" mentality, even though they could have easily traited them to be 'full' Primals within the old system just as they do now.

Everyone has their preferences, this is fine; but I don't think it's okay to keep ignoring all the times Summoning was more than just flashy aesthetic.

The less pet focus, the better. They have always been clunky in this game with it's spaghetti code. And we have NEVER liked a single rework they ever did to any of the pets. Every patch there was something to complain about with the pets. One of the very reasons I opt to play White Mage and now Sage over Scholar due to how clunky the pet feels.

Honestly I didn't even need for carbuncle to stay with us. I'm fine with calling out the summons, don't need a pet that literally does nothing other than being a pikachu following you around. I have minions for that. Tbh the carbuncle doesn't even fit aesthetically anymore with current summoner. A remnant of an arcanist which current Summoner is by far more powerful than. Hell atleast update the carbuncle to reflect a stronger Summoner instead of having this cutesy pikachu

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Originally Posted by ArcaneCarbuncle

This has been pointed out at multiple points throughout this thread (and others) to be untrue; pretty much every main line game from FFX onwards (except XV) had some sort of Pet Job-esque gameplay, and the still managed to be flashy just fine. That's 20 years of History people keep ignoring.
Making Summoner a Pet job was perfectly valid based on the jobs history

I feel people tend to be too laser focused on the whole "Egi too smol" mentality, even though they could have easily traited them to be 'full' Primals within the old system just as they do now.

Everyone has their preferences, this is fine; but I don't think it's okay to keep ignoring all the times Summoning was more than just flashy aesthetic.

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Even in iterations where summons acted like part members and were more present on the field, they were not always present nor were they something the summoner acted through by proxy. Old SMN was not a really good pet class anyway, it didn't offer real interaction with the pet it just allowed you to cast abilities from the pet. I tend to think of something like EverQuest magician as an actual pet class, where most of your damage was through your pet and your abilities centered around augmenting or drawing from them.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Even in iterations where summons acted like part members and were more present on the field, they were not always present nor were they something the summoner acted through by proxy. Old SMN was not a really good pet class anyway, it didn't offer real interaction with the pet it just allowed you to cast abilities from the pet. I tend to think of something like EverQuest magician as an actual pet class, where most of your damage was through your pet and your abilities centered around augmenting or drawing from them.

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Jobs evolve over time and with the medium they're presented in, and old Summoner - conceptually at least - was a perfectly valid direction to take the Job in, especially for an MMO. Obviously the execution was a mess, and I don't think even the most staunch defenders will disagree there.

But that's not even my point, I simply take issue with people claiming that Summoners always just about big booms and fancy graphic, because that's plain and simply factually untrue.
What I want is nuanced discussion so the job can be better for everyone, reductive takes are not helpful.

Edit: Just to add this: If old Summoner is to be faulted for being a departure from the original concept, then the same thing is true for EW Summoner which takes easily as much from Spellblade as it does from its namesake.
(Not directed at the poster I'm quoting, just thought I'd add this here because I'm frankly tired of this discussion. I've said my piece, multiple times, I'm done with this discussion for like. the next year or so, lol)

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Originally Posted by ArcaneCarbuncle

This has been pointed out at multiple points throughout this thread (and others) to be untrue; pretty much every main line game from FFX onwards (except XV) had some sort of Pet Job-esque gameplay, and the still managed to be flashy just fine. That's 20 years of History people keep ignoring.
Making Summoner a Pet job was perfectly valid based on the jobs history

I feel people tend to be too laser focused on the whole "Egi too smol" mentality, even though they could have easily traited them to be 'full' Primals within the old system just as they do now.

Everyone has their preferences, this is fine; but I don't think it's okay to keep ignoring all the times Summoning was more than just flashy aesthetic.

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I mean the reason they changed smn was because of how much backlash they have gotten over the years from people wanting what we have currently. Seems like they catered to the majority, and now we have something we can call a proper FF summoner instead of the crappy looking egis and none-summoner abilities while being clunky af.

first and foremost the majority of FF games made summoner a flashy aesthetic and everything else an afterthought. people have nostalgia of those summons and summoners, and when you have all those games as reference but end up with whatever we had before 6.0 it just goes to show what the majority of players wanted and the devs graciously gave it to us.

I would have had no problem if they called the previous summoner anything other than. And the summons you mention in x,xii and xiii was really just adding onto the single player version of summons, they were still big and flashy and had big attacks that they performed. And there's still glamour if you want to change the carbuncle into something else.

I don't even play summoner, but reading to this thread, it's interesting how it all just boils down to "creature goes" or "creature stays for 20 or so seconds."

I've got SMN to level 90 and I think the level 90 Summons actually DO feel like Summons, so I'd say the job fantasy is done well in that regard. I really don't see why it takes until level 90 to get them outside of "we needed something cool for the capstone and we had no ideas" Personally I wish it had more summons, summoning the same 3 over and over again gets very boring quickly.

Summoner community in a nutshell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdPGWEFa6UM

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Summoner community in a nutshell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdPGWEFa6UM

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It's almost like different people have different opinions.

Crazy I know.

Okay that made me laugh a good hearty laugh. Thank you.

For how long the hope to include ramuh, leviathan, and shiva; if it doesn’t happen in 10.0 after this rework, I think it’s safe to say it isn’t happening.

As for what feels or what doesn’t feel like a “proper final fantasy summoner”, then I ask everyone; what makes a “proper final summoner” to you?

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Originally Posted by Manamaru

As for what feels or what doesn’t feel like a “proper final fantasy summoner”, then I ask everyone; what makes a “proper final summoner” to you?

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Imo it just has to be focused around big summons doing big attacks fairly often. That alone doesn't make for an interesting mmo job though so there's plenty of space to get creative. Making summons permanent pets reduces their impact and SMN is all about big impact so I'm not a fan of that, temporary pets are fine.

The rework is designed around minimizing AI involvement I feel like, which I understand is way harder to improve, so getting around it maybe the best option for both SE and players... at least for this generation of computer.

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Originally Posted by LitheSuxman

The rework is designed around minimizing AI involvement I feel like, which I understand is way harder to improve, so getting around it maybe the best option for both SE and players... at least for this generation of computer.

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Interestingly enough, older games (including the older FF MMO!) have greater AI involvement. Summoner among them, though when I took a brief dive into that game, I was very surprised and impressed by all the nuances that puppetmaster's AI had.

I think it's not a matter of what the computer is capable of, but how game design trends and MOs have changed. Older MMOs, MUDs, and so on were more like sandboxes. FF14 and similar are highly, highly streamlined and all about very carefully choreographed encounters. FF14 requires you to step here, then there, and lastly over there in very precisely timed sequences - a dance. AI's not so great for that - either you preprogram all the moves (trusts), expect the player to manage all the positioning even though it's not responsive (Old FF14), or just make the pets immune to everything or even just dress up abilities as a pet thing when really it's the player (current FF14).

And then - aside from the ability to solve and follow mechanics - FF14 has chosen rotations to be the metric by which players distinguish skill. How well you can sequence your abilities, time and prioritize them, and so on. Giving AI too much influence over this upsets that balance.

And then other games in genres far and wide like to minimize AI involvement because, well, they want the player's skill to shine and be more defining - ie, modern shooters mostly make turrets very weak if they have them at all, compared to older games, because they want one's success to be dependent on reflexes and fine motor skill. For FF14, that's doing a job's rotation.

So, you can see how there's not too much room for traditional pet job design in the modern game. It might be different if FF were more strategy or tactical focused, but as essentially an action game, AI has to be severely handicapped or it'd just be the better option. We might not have pet jobs at all, if YoshiP hadn't run a series of polls in 1.0 where such ended up being a very popular option.

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Originally Posted by ArcaneCarbuncle

Yuna also had permanent summons, and FFXII and XIII featured summons as temporary allies.
Let's not act as if permanent summons would be breaking any rules, the Franchise has been moving towards more permanent and interactive concepts of summoning for 20 years now; it's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

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It was already said but it’s worth repeating. Let’s not pretend that we didn’t already have permanent summons that had way too many problems. Also if you really want to compare to X, XII, and XII… in 10, in some fights it was more optimal just to Grand Summon and Dismiss than to keep fighting with the Summon. In 12 and 13 your summons were on a limited time, with 12 having that ideal walk around with your pet that you seem to want, while in 13 if you Summoned you were probably in a story situation or were about to make a finishing gambit on the boss.

They removed the only thing resembling a pet job from the game. It was a crappy decision and we got a crappy replacement. But the minority of vocal people screaming "SUMMONS GO BOOM!' got what they wanted so whatever.

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

They removed the only thing resembling a pet job from the game. It was a crappy decision and we got a crappy replacement. But the minority of vocal people screaming "SUMMONS GO BOOM!' got what they wanted so whatever.

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Basically this, the community is very easily enthralled by visuals and can regulate all jobs to 1 button if it meant it looked pretty and they would still defend it. We’ve seen this happen a few times already but SMN defenses by (mostly) people who never played it , is some of the dumbest arguments I’ve ever heard of

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

They removed the only thing resembling a pet job from the game.

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There never was a pet job. It was just a glorified DoT or HoT.

Want a pet job you play a healer. You have 3 to 7 pets to manage in instanced content.

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Originally Posted by ArcaneCarbuncle

Yuna also had permanent summons, and FFXII and XIII featured summons as temporary allies.
Let's not act as if permanent summons would be breaking any rules, the Franchise has been moving towards more permanent and interactive concepts of summoning for 20 years now; it's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

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To be fair, Yuna's Summons are more in line with how the Demi's Function. Also be careful what you ask for, because asking for permanent summons is like asking for ninja posions where you pick the best one for the fight and never switch (ifrit egi) was basically this for the jobs entire life span. Then people complain they want to switch summons around, SE gave us that. Every minute you cycle through 4 pets with the Demi switching every other minute. This is thematically perfect for SMN, Yuna couldn't just switch between summons while one was out, and the 13 primals got a limited amount of actions before disappearing which is just like how the demi's function.

Thematically, this is perfection. It captures an aspect of every version of SMN, variety, and frequency. im not saying you have to like it, but it's incorrect to list yuna and eidolons as something different than what the smn's are already doing

New summoner is a whole new job. Its not an update to old summoner.

I started playing this game because of old summoner. That was the vibe/aesthetic i enjoyed. My favorite job was basically deleted. Other people feel this way too. Why is this controversial/hard to understand?

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Originally Posted by Yubie

New summoner is a whole new job. Its not an update to old summoner.

I started playing this game because of old summoner. That was the vibe/aesthetic i enjoyed. My favorite job was basically deleted. Other people feel this way too. Why is this controversial/hard to understand?

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because you're veiling your affinity for a specific playstyle as a flaw in the games iteration of SMN. in reality, this version of SMN is thematically consistent with the series this game represents. It has hit and run Summons, and it has Summons that fight with you for a bit of time before leaving too. Thats both halfs of the spectrum. This is a Final Fantasy SMN, this is the correct logical extension of what makes a SMN. now, if you argue about the playstyle. thats fine, you don't have to like it. However saying old SMN vibe and aesthetic is indicative of what a SMN is opens your opinion to scrutiny.

Just say, you like the way it played before. Don't say it's aesthetic is wrong when it's probably the most aesthetically faithful job next to dragoon, black mage, and white mage

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

because you're veiling your affinity for a specific playstyle as a flaw in the games iteration of SMN. in reality, this version of SMN is thematically consistent with the series this game represents. It has hit and run Summons, and it has Summons that fight with you for a bit of time before leaving too. Thats both halfs of the spectrum. This is a Final Fantasy SMN, this is the correct logical extension of what makes a SMN. now, if you argue about the playstyle. thats fine, you don't have to like it. However saying old SMN vibe and aesthetic is indicative of what a SMN is opens your opinion to scrutiny.

Just say, you like the way it played before. Don't say it's aesthetic is wrong when it's probably the most aesthetically faithful job next to dragoon, black mage, and white mage

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You say Black Mage is exceptionally faithful, but where's haste, all my debuffs, instant death spells, and scathe buffs? This "faithful" argument is thoroughly worthless every time it is brought up, because other jobs are not faithful in a variety of ways and succeed anyway because they aren't designed exceedingly poorly like new SMN is.

A video of the very first iteration of Summoner in the series:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu2i5exh-tI

I'd say it's pretty spot on in terms of thematic design, and as some have mentioned above, Demi-Bahamut and Demi-Phoenix represent the later summons from FFX and onward where they join the fight or replace the party. It's strikingly similar to XIII's Eidolons, actually, who also were only present for a brief duration.

What I've said before and stand by is that new SMN is great fertile land for the job to grow. It's just unfortunate that it's a little too simple. It would have been better if the job could've been redesigned with a bit more substance into their rotation, but I'm more happy than I am disappointed.

Omg I feel like these summoner posts need to go to reddit at this point. Brining a thread from 17 days ago back up.

The Job changed from complaints over years. You got what you wanted. change. Well this is what they have to offer.
I personally love it. Simple sure, but not every job needs to be complicated.
This is a good ground work. But by no means does it need to go back to a dot class / 6 min rotation and crap pet AI.
If you don't like it play something else. RDM is now god mode. This is just beating a dead horse non stop threads. Its like back to square one again.
A lot of ppl didn't like the older one for years and complain.
They give you a TOTAL rework. complain. I don't see a solution for ppl that plays this class. Or if they can offer one.

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Originally Posted by DES_VII

Omg I feel like these summoner posts need to go to reddit at this point. Brining a thread from 17 days ago back up.

The Job changed from complaints over years. You got what you wanted. change. Well this is what they have to offer.
I personally love it. Simple sure, but not every job needs to be complicated.
This is a good ground work. But by no means does it need to go back to a dot class / 6 min rotation and crap pet AI.
If you don't like it play something else. RDM is now god mode. This is just beating a dead horse non stop threads. Its like back to square one again.
A lot of ppl didn't like the older one for years and complain.
They give you a TOTAL rework. complain. I don't see a solution for ppl that plays this class. Or if they can offer one.

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Well thanks for bumping all these SMN post with your replies... Enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Well thanks for bumping all these SMN post with your replies... Enjoy.

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No problem. Now make a another thread on the same subject and make the whole "DPS Role" page just SMN. <3

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Originally Posted by DES_VII

Omg I feel like these summoner posts need to go to reddit at this point. Brining a thread from 17 days ago back up.

The Job changed from complaints over years. You got what you wanted. change. Well this is what they have to offer.
I personally love it. Simple sure, but not every job needs to be complicated.
This is a good ground work. But by no means does it need to go back to a dot class / 6 min rotation and crap pet AI.
If you don't like it play something else. RDM is now god mode. This is just beating a dead horse non stop threads. Its like back to square one again.
A lot of ppl didn't like the older one for years and complain.
They give you a TOTAL rework. complain. I don't see a solution for ppl that plays this class. Or if they can offer one.

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Because SE needs to stop with half ass reworks and making every job brain dead with little creativity.

And I really do not understand why you people expect that this is solid foundation for this failure to grow. Ignoring all the trends in SE design, all the proof that healers, mch, and drk literally got nothing in this expansion... WE ARE LEVEL 90! The foundation is supposed to be set by level 60. I'll be fine if the job needed fine tuning or a job mechanic just didn't work out with playerbase but this job is just awfully designed. Like the job literally just upgrades each action after a point, and the one ability that the people that love job is locked until lvl86 and it still doesn't add anything to job.

Summons and pet actions can still ghost
Job is barely a caster anymore
Still spamming a single attack
Aetherflow is even more disjointed from the job
Utility is garbage with low dps
Phoenix is a DPS lost once it is learned
Actively pentalized for having too much spell speed
Carby is a hinderance
No in depth mechanics
Rotation literally revolves one button

If y'all like to settle on garbage then settle on garbage but I think it's just shameful for a company that knew the job needed a rework since 4.x and this is the best they could do

Edit: phoenix is now stronger than bahamut slightly in single target

Imo they could just turn all the primals in demi-summon, give a big flashy skill to be used, have them use basic attack while u use your elemental attacks, it would be basically the same thing we have now, but it would also feel like a pet job since u would always have something by your side. (also give us Shiva, Ramuh and Leviathan)

It changed quite drastically but I got used to it now. :)

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Originally Posted by LotusBlack97

Imo they could just turn all the primals in demi-summon, give a big flashy skill to be used, have them use basic attack while u use your elemental attacks, it would be basically the same thing we have now, but it would also feel like a pet job since u would always have something by your side. (also give us Shiva, Ramuh and Leviathan)

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Given the nature of the summoning of Shiva, I don't think that will ever be one we summon. But also, there's jut not much point to adding three more summons to follow Phoenix if they're effectively the same except different animations.

Forgot to also add this. It’s quite satisfying to summon the three primals in all their splendour, just wish they remained a bit longer like Bahamut & Phoenix.

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

Because SE needs to stop with half ass reworks and making every job brain dead with little creativity.

And I really do not understand why you people expect that this is solid foundation for this failure to grow. Ignoring all the trends in SE design, all the proof that healers, mch, and drk literally got nothing in this expansion... WE ARE LEVEL 90! The foundation is supposed to be set by level 60. I'll be fine if the job needed fine tuning or a job mechanic just didn't work out with playerbase but this job is just awfully designed. Like the job literally just upgrades each action after a point, and the one ability that the people that love job is locked until lvl86 and it still doesn't add anything to job.

Summons and pet actions can still ghost
Job is barely a caster anymore
Still spamming a single attack
Aetherflow is even more disjointed from the job
Utility is garbage with low dps
Phoenix is a DPS lost once it is learned
Actively pentalized for having too much spell speed
Carby is a hinderance
No in depth mechanics
Rotation literally revolves one button

If y'all like to settle on garbage then settle on garbage but I think it's just shameful for a company that knew the job needed a rework since 4.x and this is the best they could do

Edit: phoenix is now stronger than bahamut slightly in single target

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Well keep complaining, I'm sure your next rework will be 7.0 and this thread will still be filled with X should this and this, and so forth. With the new changes *shrug*
I can see people getting out shape from a total redesign, I get it. But I feel the majority enjoy it. Only people that don't are posting thread after thread with the same ppl.
And everybody has Their idea of how SMN should be. Everyone has a different one. And I don't see a middle ground.
This happens in tons off RPG games when reworks happen.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Given the nature of the summoning of Shiva, I don't think that will ever be one we summon. But also, there's jut not much point to adding three more summons to follow Phoenix if they're effectively the same except different animations.

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They could absolutely use shiva as well. There is an entity known as shiva who isn't tied to Ysayle and this is all summons have ever needed, just someone to believe in them. Even Ryne was able to summon shiva using a second hand account and enough aether to force it into being.

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Originally Posted by Atamis

They could absolutely use shiva as well. There is an entity known as shiva who isn't tied to Ysayle and this is all summons have ever needed, just someone to believe in them. Even Ryne was able to summon shiva using a second hand account and enough aether to force it into being.

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Ryne used the same method as Ysale did, invoking the legend of Shiva into herself. She didn't use Eden to summon another version of her the same way she did with the other 5 primals.

I mean if they wanted to create another job mechanic for invoking primals, they could have the summoner do something similar to reaper where the character model changes so that you can invoke Shiva, Thordan, and/or Tsukiyomi. But that doesn't seem like the direction they're taking the job currently.

The Summoner didn't feel like it summoned before. You basically summoned tiny clown vomit to dot the enemy. Felt like nothing. Bargain Bin Warlocks as I always called them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Ryne used the same method as Ysale did, invoking the legend of Shiva into herself. She didn't use Eden to summon another version of her the same way she did with the other 5 primals.

I mean if they wanted to create another job mechanic for invoking primals, they could have the summoner do something similar to reaper where the character model changes so that you can invoke Shiva, Thordan, and/or Tsukiyomi. But that doesn't seem like the direction they're taking the job currently.

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Yes Shiva worked like that here, much like thordan, and shinryu worked (and Ryne). But it doesn't need to work like that. Much like Anima was summoned, it just needs willed into existence.

I think they were inching towards that direction on a lesser scale. Original bahamut trance was all about channeling his power instead of summoning it, like Ysayle channeled Shiva, she was just much better at it. Right now it feels like they were being safe by having physical summons do their thing and leave while letting you channel a portion to do the attacks yourself. A Shiva could easily fit his model while being lore friendly. We really aren't summoning the real Titan, just a small fraction of him, much like we wouldn't be summoning Shiva just a small fraction of the essence.
I mean to say, theres more than one way to summon things. Phoenix is a prime example. There is no beast tribes summoning Phoenix. Louisoix *became* phoenix, and we inherited it from him. We can summon Phoenix fine. We partially channel it aswell. There isn't really anything stopping us from doing the same with Shiva.