Or tell the learner to read the tooltip. Verflare/Verholy tooltip tells players how to get a guaranteed proc to Verfire/Verstone and that alone should tell players which finisher would be preferred.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
What makes RDM an easy DPS?
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11-30-2021, 04:21 AMRein_eon_Osborne
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11-30-2021, 04:43 AMIscahIf you're going to push the learner off to read the tooltips instead, that's your business. But if you're going to talk about how to play then it's better to give more accurate information.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne
In any case the tooltips can be difficult to put together sometimes, following bits of information across several different skills. -
11-30-2021, 05:31 AMMaxilor
I'm a huge fan of RDM mostly because it doesn't have button bloat since it's skills just replace other skills.
More classes should do that. -
11-30-2021, 08:01 AMSaberMaxwellhttps://thumbs.gfycat.com/PossibleLa...restricted.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by FusiaRain
Just saw this claim. RDM's vercure is, while stronger than SMN's physick, also weaker than SCH's physick and costs 290-370 flat potency to do because it's a gcd. -
11-30-2021, 08:03 AMVahlnirThey are decent pocket healers (some heals are better than no heals) but they are definitely not something to be relied upon in the long term of an encounter.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
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11-30-2021, 08:05 AMSaberMaxwellThey're about as decent as a healer spamming physick would be, yes. At the cost of even more dps than a healer loses by gcd healing, and certainly nowhere near as potent as CLEMENCY.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vahlnir
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11-30-2021, 09:07 AMMaxilor
Vercure is for either soloing content, prepping a Dual Cast prepull, or in DESPERATE situations like the Healer d/ced mid boss fight and the Tank isn't a Paladin.
Very niche reasons not to just DPS instead. I'm glad I have it, but I always laugh when I see a RDM try to 'Help' the healer because the tanks health got to 50% or something. -
11-30-2021, 10:12 AMFloortank
Setting aside RDM, being a caster requires a different skillset than being a melee. While the RDM mechanics over the top of the caster role are pretty easy, being a caster requires some nuance, such as knowledge of the fight, so that you know how to position beforehand. RDM doesn't make the underlying caster part of your role that much easier.
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11-30-2021, 10:31 AMSilverObi
I'm not sure what makes it easy but I know what makes it fun and that is its mobility and feeling of speed, at least to me. A rdm really pushing dps while they dodge mechanics with slidecasting and jumps is a thing to see. People do seem to have a hard time grasping the Dualcast mechanic for some reason, I've even seen it happen live while watching a family member try rdm for the first time and instantly floundering. But I think that all boils down to sitting down and reading your tooltips like with every other job in the game.
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11-30-2021, 12:43 PMVahlnirThe only time I will step on a healer's toes is if the tank or other people keep dying from a complete lack of heals. Saw that last week in a trial. If I hadn't stepped in it would have ended in failure, so RDM heals really can make a difference sometimes. When the situation is a lot more positive then I simply let them be and toss out raises if/when needed. It's usually best to never upset your healer. That's a lesson most people learn the hard way early on in their MMO "careers". I was no exception once upon a time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxilor
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11-30-2021, 01:23 PMStriderShinryu
Yeah, of course as a RDM you never really WANT to be healing, but if stuff hits the fan it can definitely make the difference in a fight. It's just an extra tool to have in your tool chest.
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11-30-2021, 01:45 PM_Pigzig
thought I might as well ask in here, is it possible to bar swap with a button?
I know some people set up aoe bar and single target bar, but it seems like I gotta click between the two -
11-30-2021, 01:46 PMFusiaRainYou realize i wassaying the verraise is better than healer rezs not the vercure.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
While healers get 1 instant cast they can auto do it. To the point having rez on your bar us typically pointless as you will always see ppl playing the brain dead job lol
They need to upgread healer rezs so when used the person gets maxed healed, with no weakness status effect.
okay editing cuz se bs with post limit
(Clemancy heals around 3k 4k has a cast timer for two cast.
Vercure heals around 2.5k but it gets duelcast so for the time it takes for one clemancy cast they can heal 5k which is more than a single psystick on sch at the same level.
Your counting it as a single cast but its not its twocast so the total must he added.
And its vercure to is way more than sch embrace cast at the same level. So yes its way op for the system rdm has with autocast after initial cast for everything.
Not even counting to do half the healer number single vercure they can throw out a dps spell at the same time.
You need to take into account the system it has with double casting no matter what so when you do your math you gave to x2 rdm and compare between it and a single -
11-30-2021, 01:47 PMSaberMaxwellNo no, you said vercure is the same level as clemency. I even bolded it in the quote snippet I took. That's the funny bit. The rest I agree with more or less; verraise should be made ineligible for dualcast or given a 60s cooldown, there's no reason that should be stronger than a healer's variant.Quote:
Originally Posted by FusiaRain
Do you think dualcast doesn't trigger the gcd or something? Two vercures takes 5 seconds base gcd. If we're counting 2 vercures we must also count two clemencies, two physicks, two cures, or two benefics. It's instant cast, not off-global cooldown; RDM would be absolutely hectic if Dualcast was oGCD.Quote:
(Clemancy heals around 3k 4k has a cast timer for two cast.
Vercure heals around 2.5k but it gets duelcast so for the time it takes for one clemancy cast they can heal 5k which is more than a single psystick on sch at the same level.
Your countimg it as a single cast but its not its twocast so the total must he added.
Even then, Paladin's Clemency has a 1,200 cure potency. Vercure has a 350 cure potency. Two vercures is a little over half of what one clemency is capable of.
EDIT: For clarification, Red Mage's Dualcast takes the GCD. What this means is, yes the spell casts instantly, but you cannot immediately begin using another global cooldown ability like, say, another cast, until the global cooldown us up. Because of this, you get what looks like two vercures for the time-cost of one, but really you just cast cure twice in a row. Because of this, actions that do not do damage, like vercure and verraise, have what is known as an opportunity cost, that being 290 flat (Jolt 2's potency) and 370 flat (veraero's potency). Why do I say "flat"? Because mana has potency, and both Jolt 2 and Veraero generate 6 and 11 mana each. In Shadowbringers, the potency per mana is somewhere near 7.47; multiply that by 11 (in veraero's case) and you get 82.17, then add to veraero's potency and you have a theoretical opportunity cost of 452.17 in order to cast verraise or vercure instead of veraero.
If you just cast vercure twice in a row? Well, Jolt 2's theoretical potency is 334.82. Add that to veraero and you have an opportunity cost of 786.99 potency lost for 700 potency of cure. Or if you prefer flat values alone, 660 potency for 700 cure potency. -
11-30-2021, 02:20 PMItMePaladin's Clemency has a higher potency, but thay doesn't necessarily mean it's capable of more.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
RDM heals off it's INT stat, which is real high.
PLD heals come from, what, Mind and Tenacity?
It doesn't get much Mind with that being a healer stat.
And Tenacity scales weird, plus it's kinda poop so, unlike a RDM and Int, tanks don't stack tenacity.
This is actually why the potency on Clemency is so high.
We can't just look at the potency to see which heal is "better." We'll need to test it in game (and probably unequip gear when doing so). -
11-30-2021, 02:31 PMSaberMaxwellThat's like saying "Holy Spirit doesn't hit hard because it scales off of Int," or the same with Ninjutsu. Where did you get that Paladin's heals come from Mind and Tenacity? I'll grant you the potencies cannot necessarily be compared 1 to 1, however it's evident for anyone who's ever cast Clemency that it's stronger than Vercure. Especially if you cast it on a party member where it then gains another 600 potency worth of cure, but to self instead of target.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItMe
I logged in to test: my Clemency at i495 hits for 30,465. STR 4,665 / MND 338 / TEN 809. At i426 in my WAR's lv78 gear, STR 3,466 / MND 338 / TEN 1,230, my Clemency hit for 23,678.
My Vercure at i530 hits for 18,923 for reference. -
11-30-2021, 02:33 PMItMeExcellent.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
Thank you for those numbers~ -
11-30-2021, 02:37 PMSaberMaxwellYou're welcome. I repeated a few times and took into account some more stats. Clemency is most likely to scale off of strength.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItMe
One thing PLD lacks that all three casters have is Maim and Mend 2, which increases healing output by 30%. So vercure would have a more real comparative potency of 455 potency. -
11-30-2021, 02:40 PMItMe. . . STRENGTH!?Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
W... why?
That's so bizarre.
Has it always been like that? -
11-30-2021, 02:42 PMSaberMaxwell
Yup. Back when it crossed cure over, it needed to be Mind, but when Clemency was made into a main PLD thing it started scaling off of STR. Summoner is actually the oddball in having its cure's (physick's) potency *not* rely on its main stat.
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11-30-2021, 02:46 PMItMeI had no idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
Thanks for the info ; ) -
11-30-2021, 02:47 PMSaberMaxwellOf course! Sorry for being a bit abrasive, long day at work but that's no excuse.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItMe
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11-30-2021, 07:15 PMNicodemus_Mercy
What I'd like to see happen is for Verfire and Verstone replace Jolt when their respective procs trigger. It would eliminate two buttons from the action bar and reduce the required finger gymnastics. It's how I currently play RDM via macros. Yea yea, I hear all the "macros shouldn't be used for dps" comments already, but I'm old, my hands don't work so well, and it makes RDM comfortable for me to play. I also manage to perform adequately with it.
Right now I basically have my primary action bar set up with Veraero in #1, a macro that combines Jolt, Verstone, & Verfire in #2, and Verthunder in #3. This basically let's me cast Jolt/Verstone/Verfire with one button and bounce between that and Veraero/Verthunder with only 3 buttons. My macro also has the off cooldowns so I use them as soon as they are available
/macroicon "Jolt"
/merror off
/ft
/ac "Fleche" <t>
/ac "Contre Sixte" <t>
/ac "Verstone" <t>
/ac "Verfire" <t>
/ac "Jolt" <t>
It may not be "optimal" but it sure feels a lot better to play with the macro than without due to my age and hand issues. I don't have to be a 20-something concert pianist to perform well enough that I'm not a burden to my party.
Here's my action bar setup:
https://i.imgur.com/tvED5SM.jpg
You'll notice I have a non-macroed Jolt, Verfire and Verstone on my bar as well. The non-macroed Jolt is there for Scorch since putting /ac "Scorch" <t> at the top of the macro doesn't work. I have Verfire/Verstone on the bar so I can see the procs, and if necessary, use the manual buttons, but 90% of the time the macro works well enough for me. I keep the OCD abilities on my bar for occasions where I need to hit them manually as well. I'd also love to see the melee combo sans Displacement (so I can choose between Displacement or Engagement as needed) combined into a single button like pvp. -
11-30-2021, 08:38 PMSaberMaxwellHow would this work when Verfire and Verstone are both procced? Which takes precedence? Why? There are several situations where one might need to take manual control over the spellcasting at that point that having the procs replace Jolt 2 would be an active hindrance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy
Two buttons that really don't need to be eliminated from the bar.Quote:
It would eliminate two buttons from the action bar and reduce the required finger gymnastics.
I can't fault you for playing how you're comfortable. You might consider switching to a controller-based set-up, maybe that would help; my own fingers don't need to move much at all to access virtually every button I need on RDM.Quote:
It's how I currently play RDM via macros. Yea yea, I hear all the "macros shouldn't be used for dps" comments already, but I'm old, my hands don't work so well, and it makes RDM comfortable for me to play. I also manage to perform adequately with it.
The issue here is one of double-weaving. Again, if this is what makes it comfortable for you to play I can't really argue that point, but very frequently you'll want to fire off Fleche and Contre at the same time, or Fleche and Engagement, CaC and Contre come up together a lot in my experience as well. Slapping everything onto one button seems like a very...slapdash way of doing it, even accepting for the sake of argument that macros make things easier.Quote:
Right now I basically have my primary action bar set up with Veraero in #1, a macro that combines Jolt, Verstone, & Verfire in #2, and Verthunder in #3. This basically let's me cast Jolt/Verstone/Verfire with one button and bounce between that and Veraero/Verthunder with only 3 buttons. My macro also has the off cooldowns so I use them as soon as they are available
If you were to do this, why would you not instead macro verstone to veraero and verfire to verthunder? Have it set as
so that the macro checks for stone, sees it's not available and instead sends out veraero? Granted, you run the obvious risks of macro use there and there's the case you'll probably hit where you dualcast verstone, but compared to what you're running it might be better, especially since per your bars you've still got Veraero and Verthunder there. Having the micon set to Verstone lets you know when the proc is available too.Quote:
/macroicon "Verstone"
/merror off
/ft
/ac "Verstone" <t>
/ac "Veraero" <t>
Then a separate macro that tags together whatever off globals you want to have there.
Hyperbole noted. There are ways around this, though; I'm no expert in KBM on this game, but with controller at least there are several ways to comfortably map several actions to easy-to-reach buttons. The shoulder buttons act as modifiers allowing, say, the square button, to act is 4+ different actions for instance.Quote:
It may not be "optimal" but it sure feels a lot better to play with the macro than without due to my age and hand issues. I don't have to be a 20-something concert pianist to perform well enough that I'm not a burden to my party.
The melee combo sans displacement? Displacement is more of a flourish there...you shouldn't be saving it to use at the end of the melee combo, it should be going off whenever its cooldown ends, and when melee comboing engagement tends to be the easier button to hit for a variety of reasons.Quote:
I'd also love to see the melee combo sans Displacement (so I can choose between Displacement or Engagement as needed) combined into a single button like pvp.
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11-30-2021, 09:12 PMIzanagi_Fiaresu
Its very self explanatory. While there are little tricks you can do to optimize it? Its a pick up and play job because the skills lead into the rotation nice.
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11-30-2021, 09:33 PMRongway/ac Scorch doesn't work because the game is expecting Jolt at that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy
All due "don't macro combat actions" lectures aside, here are my recommendations if you're still going to macro all that for accessibility.
There's an appropriate order to actions in a macro so that you don't delay a GCD for an oGCD. You've put Fleche and Contre Sixte before all your spells. This is something you should always avoid, even when the macro is being used for accessibility reasons. By prioritizing Fleche and Contre Sixte, you will lose about 1 whole second every time one of them comes off cooldown just when you are about to cast a spell, and you'll lose 2 whole seconds if the other one comes off cooldown during that 1 s. oGCDs should always come at the end so that you can use them without delaying your spells. Delaying Fleche or Contre Sixte by 3.2s so that you can dualcast a spell pair will result in far fewer lost oGCDs than the GCDs lost from delaying spells 1s for your oGCDs.
The way this macro is written, if you happen to be within one Verstone cast of being white tilted and you need to cast Jolt or Verfire to avoid becoming white tilted, you're going to cast Verstone and get white tilted, which will cost you between two and four GCDs to rebalance, leaving you up to ten seconds behind your melee schedule. So do watch out for that so you can manually Verfire or Jolt in that particular case. -
12-01-2021, 06:16 AMNicodemus_MercyIf I had to give a simple answer, I'd say that while one is procced, the other cannot proc so there is no conflict of one over the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
Can you provide a few examples?Quote:
There are several situations where one might need to take manual control over the spellcasting at that point that having the procs replace Jolt 2 would be an active hindrance.
It might seem "slapdash" but it works. I mash my keybind for the macro and all ocd spells go off if available, immediately followed by either verstone or verfire if procced, or jolt if not.Quote:
I can't fault you for playing how you're comfortable. You might consider switching to a controller-based set-up, maybe that would help; my own fingers don't need to move much at all to access virtually every button I need on RDM.
The issue here is one of double-weaving. Again, if this is what makes it comfortable for you to play I can't really argue that point, but very frequently you'll want to fire off Fleche and Contre at the same time, or Fleche and Engagement, CaC and Contre come up together a lot in my experience as well. Slapping everything onto one button seems like a very...slapdash way of doing it, even accepting for the sake of argument that macros make things easier.
I actually tried that first, but it ended up feeling better to have all the cast time/fillers in a single button, and the two spells I use my dualcast on to either side. It makes for a very simple 2-1or3-2-1or3 rotation. It eliminates most cases where I'd have to even look at verstone or verfire.Quote:
If you were to do this, why would you not instead macro verstone to veraero and verfire to verthunder? Have it set as
so that the macro checks for stone, sees it's not available and instead sends out veraero? Granted, you run the obvious risks of macro use there and there's the case you'll probably hit where you dualcast verstone, but compared to what you're running it might be better, especially since per your bars you've still got Veraero and Verthunder there. Having the micon set to Verstone lets you know when the proc is available too.
I've never used a controller with FFXIV and I prefer using a keyboard and mouse in general when playing MMO's.Quote:
Hyperbole noted. There are ways around this, though; I'm no expert in KBM on this game, but with controller at least there are several ways to comfortably map several actions to easy-to-reach buttons. The shoulder buttons act as modifiers allowing, say, the square button, to act is 4+ different actions for instance.
I've never been comfortable in melee. With RDM I do my combo, and Displacement back to range unless doing so would result in my death. In those cases I use Engagement, but I don't spend any more time in melee than I absolutely have to. I can imagine the responses to that. "Maybe you shouldn't play RDM?" Trust me I've thought that myself, but it's one of the few dps jobs I can handle (with my setup) and perform adequately. Fortunately for most other players I am a healer main, so it's rare that I am RDM in group content so no one has to be subjected to my mediocre performance.Quote:
The melee combo sans displacement? Displacement is more of a flourish there...you shouldn't be saving it to use at the end of the melee combo, it should be going off whenever its cooldown ends, and when melee comboing engagement tends to be the easier button to hit for a variety of reasons.
I know I must seem like a terrible player, and for dps jobs it's probably true. To me most of the dps jobs really are an exercise in finger gymnastics. They're just too complex for me to do well with while also paying attention to fight mechanics at the same time. -
12-01-2021, 06:21 AMNicodemus_MercyTy for the advice. I Will explore what you've suggested!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
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12-01-2021, 06:25 AMMilkieTeaThe Redmage opener in higher end content requires you to hold one proc for a bit in order to save it for later, and use one proc as it comes up. And considering you typically will want to eventually come back to use most of your opener again when things are all off cooldown, it's not just a one-off thing. There's also times where you'll hold the proc to fix a user-error that will be able to be fixed before the proc disappears, and other examples that I can't remember because I haven't used RDM in a bit and my memory is hazyQuote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy
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12-01-2021, 06:57 AMSaberMaxwellHm... the issue there is that would cause actual shifts in how a Red Mage would need to think. It would go beyond Quality of Life and into gameplay altering changes if this change were adopted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy
MilkieTea has this covered, thank you Milkie.Quote:
Can you provide a few examples?
Like with Black Mage, a Red Mage's procs are themselves resources that one aims to use only when one gets the most gain out of them. For Red Mage that answer is "most of the time immediately" but it's not "always," which is part of the core of Red Mage's decisionmaking process.
Well if it works for you it works. I wouldn't want a situation where I'm mashing a key desperately hoping for everything to go off: especially with physical condition considered. The mental stress of hoping everything goes off and knowing they won't without drifting the GCD really badly combined with the physical stress that could lead to an RSI.Quote:
It might seem "slapdash" but it works. I mash my keybind for the macro and all ocd spells go off if available, immediately followed by either verstone or verfire if procced, or jolt if not.
I actually tried that first, but it ended up feeling better to have all the cast time/fillers in a single button, and the two spells I use my dualcast on to either side. It makes for a very simple 2-1or3-2-1or3 rotation. It eliminates most cases where I'd have to even look at verstone or verfire.
I've never used a controller with FFXIV and I prefer using a keyboard and mouse in general when playing MMO's.
I only made those suggestions with those thoughts in mind; if they would not work for you pay them no mind and please accept my apology for being presumptuous.
I wouldn't say "terrible." I'd say you're doing your best with what you have, and I have no qualms with you making the necessary changes to your control scheme so things are comfier for you. I don't understand some of your issues, but that doesn't make them less valid.Quote:
I know I must seem like a terrible player, and for dps jobs it's probably true. To me most of the dps jobs really are an exercise in finger gymnastics. They're just too complex for me to do well with while also paying attention to fight mechanics at the same time.
My thing is really only when those changes are asked to be made universal, like with your suggested Jolt 2 changes. I'll politely disagree that they're needed and that's all though. -
12-01-2021, 07:05 AMNicodemus_MercyI can understand and respect this position. Maybe asking for improvements to the macro system is the better answer for me, so that people in my situation can compensate for physical limitations with less performance penalty, and those who are more able can play the dps jobs as they are presented, with all their nuances and complexities intact.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell