"30 seconds" was just an example.Quote:
Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams
I'm sorry, but if you have no patience to wait for others, you shouldn't do group content or should just stick to playing with friends/fc only.
The duality of this community never stops to amaze me. Some people are fine with dragging an afk through the entire duty, but they won't wait for others to finish their cutscene.
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11-22-2021, 04:29 AMMiracle_Diva
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11-22-2021, 04:29 AMTaleraRistainThankfully, at least on my DC, your mentality is a rarity.Quote:
Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams
Bunker: "Hey we got cs? Yep, we got cs. Okay we'll wait"
Tower: "Hey we got cs? Yep, we got cs. Okay we'll wait"
Then someone usually does a Manderville dance and then everyone starts doing a Manderville dance.
We're all there for our coins or gear drops or whatever as well, but we all also know a minute or two to be polite doesn't hurt us. -
11-22-2021, 04:39 AMweebtext
If the person watching the cutscene doesn't complain, it's a non-issue.
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11-22-2021, 04:50 AMInfinityLibrarian
Yes, let's punish everyone else playing the game by forcing them to watch. That didn't go horribly for MSQ Roulette at all. Not even a quarter of the number of players that did it before this change do it anymore.
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11-22-2021, 05:14 AMKrojackMaybe but ONLY if they enabled "auto skip view cutscenes" by default and you can't turn it off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vibronix
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11-22-2021, 05:36 AMRobynDaBank
I wonder if people vehemently opposed to waiting for someone to finish a cutscene would be the same with Yoshida in the group; from what I've heard he always watches them. ;)
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11-22-2021, 05:58 AMLunalepsyI wish I can skip mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vibronix
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11-22-2021, 07:19 AMWolwosh
If content is years old, sorry i'm not waiting.
Most of these instances are a breeze and it doesn't matter there are a few people less.
Enjoy your cutscene and get in a little bit later.
I don't get pissy when i'm late to the party and people decided to go on without me :) -
11-22-2021, 07:53 AMSannaRNo one does. It's just recycled complaining that occasionally needs at least five threads about it. I'm surprised no one has posted a "Mentors in this game are as friendly as the entire JoJo series is to dogs." post this week. Let alone another quip about how unfair the housing system is even though most of us know that the system is going to be changed come 6.1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa
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11-22-2021, 09:36 AMMaxilor
Do new dungeons as a Tank or Healer.
Watch the cutscene as long as you want. *Evil Laugh* -
11-22-2021, 11:09 AMDogempireUnfortunately it's pretty common for people to just be incapable of waiting in any capacity without something entertaining them, and while it's super easy to just tab over and watch some Netflix or Youtube while the new person watchess their cutscene, people end up just seeing that they can pull the boss without having to wait and go for that optionQuote:
Originally Posted by TaleraRistain
There's a reason there's a barrier preventing people from attacking the boss when you load into an instance, it would just be nice if they extended that to the final boss of a dungeon as well -
11-22-2021, 11:09 AMRinhi
hey mod, you forgot multiple posts that were referencing now deleted posts! don't forget about them as well or better yet...
leave them be, pretty please? none of them broke any rules -
11-22-2021, 11:13 AMDogempireIf they complain are you going to reset the boss? Or are you going to just go "Oh, sorry =(" but continue with the behavior for every dungeon afterwards?Quote:
Originally Posted by weebtext
99.99% chance it's the latter, and even if you did the former they might have skipped the cutscene anyways after seeing the boss was pulled, rendering resetting the boss moot anyways -
11-22-2021, 11:22 AMRinhi
I'll wait for people in cutscenes, but if someone else pulls, I'll go in with them, even if I think it's rude to do so
please don't delete my post again thank you -
11-22-2021, 11:22 AMDogempireYup, it's obviously about the participation rates, not about the fact that being forced to choose between the gameplay or the cutscenes (If your group was being nice) completely ruined the finale of the first part of the game if you were even a bit invested in the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinityLibrarian
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11-22-2021, 11:26 AMIzscha
Oh nice it's him again, cant wait to see you call everyone else that skip cutscenes and pull dogs once again.
Trying so hard to be the nice guy. -
11-22-2021, 11:41 AMDogempireThanks for adding to the discussion, you made some really good pointsQuote:
Originally Posted by Izscha
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11-22-2021, 11:44 AMFyrebrandOkay, here you go:Quote:
Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams
https://i.imgur.com/woOnTS8.png
Problem solved! Is this what you want? Am I "not griefing" now, if I just re-watch the cutscenes every single time? Are we being adults now?
You know, we've all had people in dungeons who went AFK for a few minutes, either because they had to let the dog out to pee or an Amazon package arrived at the door or whatever. Do you report them for griefing too? Or is it only a problem when you know someone is sitting in their chair simply trying to be nice and wait for the newbie? Maybe before the end boss I'll just say "brb" and pretend not to be at my computer while the newbie is watching the scene -- will maintaining that illusion satisfy you?
It sounds like you're letting a lot of players die, which is reportable as griefing under the Terms of Service. :rolleyes:Quote:
And here we are, in the wonderful world of FFXIV where healers can raise people whenever we want to. Especially if it's an Alliance Raid where we can literally just throw bodies at the boss until it dies.
Also, I can't believe you snidely remark about how easy it is to revive someone when you're so upset at the thought of another player "letting you die" when you run in and pull the boss because you don't feel like waiting. You can be revived too, you know. It's not the end of the world. -
11-22-2021, 11:46 AMIzschaYou sole presence is adding much enjoyment indeed, keep going dont mind me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogempire
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11-22-2021, 12:27 PMRinhiyes? like, that's one weird way to do it if you really don't want to help someone that pulls, but yesQuote:
Originally Posted by Fyrebrand
not helping someone that pulled is a breach of the TOS and is directly brought up as an example
Quote:
・Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior
Refers to an act of performing actions that give an advantage to an enemy (monsters, or the opposing team/players in PvP content) by not performing the necessary gameplay required of the situation. This may be combined with combat sabotage as well.
Key Points
Each player has a different level of skill, and in some cases, there may be a situation where the duty/content will fail. From the perspective of a skilled player in such a situation, a less skilled player may appear to be "adversarial/uncooperative/apathetic," but even if this is the case, it is not a violation as long as the player is playing appropriately.
For example, the following types of situations fall under the act of giving an advantage to the enemy (or the opposing team/players in PvP content):
"I don't want to heal because there is a player I don't like in the group."
"I don't think we can clear this anyway, so I'll just get hit by the enemy attack and go AFK after I'm knocked out."
"I'm going to join the opposing team as a healer and do nothing so my friends on the other team can win the PvP content."
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11-22-2021, 01:27 PMThaciscokiddThis(for the longest time) needs to be clarified by SE officially. Unless you get some super hardline GM, if they look at the logs and flags that are in place it would be easy to declare not a problem or if it does go through get appealed and get overturned, or get Uno reversed cause the other person could interpret it the exact opposite way and still fall within the Nuisance behavior tab.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinhi
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11-22-2021, 01:36 PMSannaRYet how would you know if said person is doing so on purpose if they don't state that they're not going to fight the boss just because someone has the in CS symbol next to their name? You can't. Course you also can't tell unless the person states that they're going to the opposite. So, unless you know all the time that someone is doing something out of spite and thus griefing you're just nitpicking semantics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinhi
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11-22-2021, 01:42 PMFyrebrandDPS #1: "Alright, let's kill the boss. I want to be done with this place."Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinhi
DPS #2: "Uh, it looks like the Tank and Healer are still in a cutscene. I don't think we can beat the boss without them..."
DPS #1: "I don't care, I'm going to pull the boss and then it will be NecESaRy gAMepLAy that you are REquiReD to help me with!"
DPS #1: "That's silly, I don't have to do what you say. Half our group is not even able to participate yet."
DPS #2: "Look, look! YOU just let me die! You're in real trouble now, bucko! You are reported!"
GM: "What have we here? Uh oh, that DPS clearly was not performing the necessary gameplay simply because they did not like the other DPS. I shall have to ban them for being toxic. What a shame, if only they hadn't enabled skip playback of previously viewed cutscenes they could have done the exact same thing but then it would somehow be Rules Approved™. -
11-22-2021, 02:53 PMRinhibecause many people can't keep their mouths closed when they do something to "teach" another player a lesson, just look at the countless amounts of YPYT tanks or the healers that announce they're going to stop healing someone for whatever reasonQuote:
Originally Posted by SannaR
it's not really nitpicking at all, but whatever
I never said something like this couldn't be possible and again, I think people who pull in cutscenes are rude, too, all I'm saying is that knowingly not helping someone is clearly defined as going against the TOS, just as someone who would repeatedly pull the boss over and over and over without waitingQuote:
Originally Posted by Fyrebrand
if it's acted upon or not, that's a whole nother matter -
11-22-2021, 03:18 PMtechnoleVery, these show up sometimes, a little more as we get towards the end of content relevancy.Quote:
Originally Posted by MilkieTea
X amount of new people, X amount of no essences, X amount of deaths add up. -
11-22-2021, 04:05 PMBobby66
They are free to watch the cutscene, while the others are free to kill the boss. Everyone wins.
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11-22-2021, 05:33 PMFyrebrandOkay, but I really don't agree that the quote of the ToS you provided is as clear-cut as you seem to think it is. What is "necessary gameplay required of the situation"? When I read that, I think they are talking in a general sense of playing the role you signed up as -- if you're a tank, you tank -- if you're a healer, you heal, that sort of thing. If I pop into a dungeon on my WHM and just cast Stone over and over and let the Tank and DPS die, refusing to do any healing, then I'm not fulfilling my role for the dungeon and I suppose that would be against the ToS. Or if, as you also quoted, I simply refuse to heal a particular player out of spite because I don't like them, then yeah that's a problem too. It's more about player behaviour, attitude, and cooperation over the course of the dungeon experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinhi
But I don't think "necessary gameplay" is something that gets dynamically toggled on and off between pulls, or spontaneously created at the whim of any individual player, which trumps the wishes of others in the group. If somebody says "Excuse me, but I have to step away from the computer for a moment I will be right back," and then you pull anyway and wipe, that AFK player did not breach any terms of service. They did not "let you die." You got yourself killed. Likewise, if a player is in a cutscene they are not breaking any rules for not participating in combat with you, and neither do I think I would be if before the boss I said "I see the new player is still in a cutscene, I would like to wait for them" and then did so. I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to do, within the context of the game rules. And I don't think the rules magically change depending on whether you're a Tank, Healer, or DPS. It's not that I'm unwilling to cooperate or perform my role, it's that I will perform my role at the appropriate time, when the group is ready.
Again, the game has a "Ready Check" function built in, which explicitly offers players the opportunity to say they are not ready to continue, for any reason. If you proceed to pull when others are not ready, you can't blame them for that.
Let's be real, we're basically only talking about those few dungeons that have significantly longer story cutscenes -- not those brief boss intros where a chimera roars at you for a moment. These scenes are more important to the game's story, and engaging in combat bombards that player with annoying pop-up messages and battle noises, not to mention unfairly peer-pressures them into rushing and speed-reading the dialogue or skipping altogether. In the case of Toto-Rak, it's possible to kill the end boss before the newbie is even out of the cutscene. This is not what Square Enix wants, and they did not design their Terms of Service to be a bludgeon for impatient players to wield and twist how they like.
Also, dungeons are group content, not partial group content and certainly not content for first-timers to sit out on while the experienced folks go on without them. In a 4-player party, if one player is in a cutscene and another player wishes to wait for them, that's already 50% of the group who is not ready to plow ahead. Anyone who pulls under that circumstance, in my opinion, is being uncooperative and is in spirit "not performing the necessary gameplay required of the situation." And they certainly are not the one who decides "necessary gameplay begins now, do what I say or else you're breaking the ToS."
Well, I have to disagree there too, because I don't think a GM would look at a player waiting for someone in a cutscene and think "Well, before someone got impatient and pulled the boss, no one was breaking any rules. But then as soon as that one person got impatient, that's when everybody else had to obey what they wanted, so they suddenly all violated the Terms of Service." And I don't think it's even a matter of "It was a minor violation, I'll let it slide this time," I think it's a matter of "Why is this even being reported?" I almost would expect that if the same player repeatedly reported players for this often enough, they might get a warning about abusing the Report system.Quote:
if it's acted upon or not, that's a whole nother matter
Either way, none of us are GMs, and I guess it's not our job to interpret what the ToS says as it is very vaguely worded and can mean basically whatever you want it to mean. But I would be curious, have there been any interviews or articles where Yoshi-P or some other dev has talked about these situations specifically? I would be extremely surprised if they flat-out said that we're breaking the ToS if we wait for people in cutscenes -- especially if they said something like "if you haven't disabled repeated cutscenes, it's fine to sit there for 3 minutes and not participate in combat... but if you instead just voluntarily wait for someone else in a cutscene, then you broke the rules." -
11-22-2021, 05:51 PMvan_arnYep, this makes sense. The party will do whatever the party wants to do. Any one person won't decide anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby66
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11-22-2021, 05:55 PMIzschaThis kind of ppl can't shut it about it, just look at this forum they have no problem to say that they'll grief for what they believe is right.Quote:
Originally Posted by SannaR
So it's easy bait at this point. -
11-22-2021, 06:22 PMRinhiI doubt there will be any interviews like that, tbh, the TOS is worded vaguely on purpose so the GMs have leeway with their enforcement, the same way they take the different culture of the DCs (and probably servers) into context as wellQuote:
Originally Posted by Fyrebrand
the weird part about this discussion that we're almost completely in agreement about dungeon etiquette regarding attitude and co
but I disagree about 1-2 things
correct, that is one of the clear cut things mentioned in the TOS, but regarding the rest of the sentence:Quote:
If somebody says "Excuse me, but I have to step away from the computer for a moment I will be right back," and then you pull anyway and wipe, that AFK player did not breach any terms of service. They did not "let you die." You got yourself killed. Likewise, if a player is in a cutscene they are not breaking any rules for not participating in combat with you
the player that pulled, and possibly the GM in case they reported you, could disagree, seeing as you did not fulfil your role and one could argue that you did not heal them due to your dislike (due to them pulling) of themQuote:
and neither do I think I would be if before the boss I said "I see the new player is still in a cutscene, I would like to wait for them" and then did so.
I agree that it's a stupid reason to report someone for when someone does it (asking not to pull and if someone still pulls anyway, not healing them) nicely or politely, but if it's from someone on a high horse, trying to show how nice they are and how deeply wrong the person who pulled is, like earlier in the thread*, then my sympathies for players like that is just completely gone and I feel that they should get a reality check, that they're just as toxic as the player they're 'teaching' something and thus, I hope that players like that do get reported and get a GM visit, even if I think it's a complete non-issue in the first place in 99/100 cases
*which I sadly can't show or quote anymore because several pages of posts got removed for no reason, including one where I posted almost the same post I made earlier on what I do when someone pulls
though this lack of context made people instantly jump at my throat at how toxic I am for thinking that a toxic player should get reported and that I must be one of the impatient people who instantly puls and don't care about anyone else, which couldn't be further from the truth, yet it shows how some of those 'nice' players love to assume how things are and must be, and that someone who quite literally does agree with them that it's rude, must be a 'bad' person and whatnot, at least on the forums here
their posts later got removed, too, which at least made some sense considering they were attacking someone, but considering the first wave of removed posts weren't anything of the sort, it makes me wonder why troll threads can stay up for however long, while normal, on-topic discussions get gutted or straight out removed like this without a word -
11-23-2021, 12:08 AMWarpstone
I try to wait every time when tanking, It has happened a few times because I am still new to tanking and I don't know all the dungeons and in a few I have noticed that as soon as you enter the boss area the boss pulls.
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11-23-2021, 01:21 AMReynTime
Same reason why "playstyle" is a thing. Selfishness. "You don't pay my sub" and all that rubbish. And they have the gall to act self-righteous about it too, which is just laughable.
Also you don't get to just say "it's not my fault". Your actions your responsibility. If you were the healer and didn't want the tank to die, sure it wasn't your fault. If you're the tank and you pulled, you own the guilt. The cutscene existing doesn't exempt you from taking the decision you take. -
11-23-2021, 01:23 AMRocciaSolida
Just pull if you want, the inn exists for many reasons and one of them is the ability of watching any cutscene you've watched/skipped before.
If SE really cared about you waiting for the first timers they would have made the duty cutscenes mandatory for everyone as in the MSQ dungeons. But they know that the number of players regularly running roulettes would dwindle even more (again, the same happened with the MSQ roulette) so it's not gonna happen, ever. -
11-23-2021, 03:07 AMJin-
I love how you guys are able to provide so much forum content in these dark times :-)
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11-23-2021, 06:22 PMKittyKetYears ago when Labyrinth of the Ancients was still kinda new and you could be sealed outside of boss rooms, a NIN rushed in to pull the three demons before everyone was ready during the ready check. The main tank had the rest of us stand outside, and all 23 of us were sealed out of the room as the NIN died quickly and horribly. DPS never pulls, and if we did before the tank was ready, dying was the proper outcome. Nowadays (lol I sound old) DPS pulls for extra mobs and that's fine, most are pretty good at bringing them back to the tank. We only had one issue with an impatient DPS, but once we asked them to please pull back toward the tank, they did, and we had a good run after that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart
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11-23-2021, 06:41 PMKittyKet
As an MMORPG, this game puts heavy emphasis on RPG. The narrative is its top priority. Giving someone time to watch cutscenes has always been the standard unspoken rule. If the cutscene was particularly long, it was dance party time for the rest of us. Pretty much in every party I've been in, people waited, so I assume this is still the standard.
If you pull while someone is in a cutscene, then you are denying that player the enjoyment of the game's core element, which is its story. Sure, there is the journal, and it's wonderful that it's there, I certainly find it useful for myself. That being said, why should someone have to go all the way to an inn when they can enjoy the cutscene here and now? Especially if they also might be pressed for time?
The answer here is simply communication. If the entire party is on the same page to skip cutscenes or wait, then there shouldn't be any issues. But if no one opens up to their needs and preferences, well, let the chips fall where they may I suppose. -
11-23-2021, 06:56 PMEscalon
I never really understood the need to not wait, is your life so busy you cant wait for 10 to 30 seconds ?
I run the same dungeons since 2.0, I've done them soo many times its not even funny anymore, and yet, I still don't mind to wait the couple seconds for someone.
Leave it to MMO players to optimize the fun and enjoyment out of a game. -
11-23-2021, 07:09 PMCeL1790
I see a sprout or anyone watching a cutscene, I assume it's their first time seeing it, so I wait. and considering I main a healer, well....rushing in without heals is a costly endeavor as a few have learned.
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11-23-2021, 07:28 PMSetesh45
In my experience most people wait, but I mostly play a healer or a tank and I wait, it could play a role.
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11-23-2021, 08:28 PMClaudeHerel
Sorry you missed the first raidwide bud