yoshi what are you doing to steel cyclone ):?

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Warrior is both a tanking job and a DPS job. I wouldn't say that Paladin is both a tanking job and a healing job. They've really only got Holy Succor and that's it for healing others, Paladin is solely a tanking job and it does not excel at that.

By the same notion, if any job could heal better than a White Mage there would be an uproar. Why? Because the only thing that White Mage excels at is healing, that is its sole role. This is why there is a problem with Paladin and Warrior. The only thing Paladin can excel at is the tanking role and Warrior beats the pants off of it in the tanking role.

For Paladin to be useful, it must excel at the tanking role more so than any other job because that is all it is made to do. Paladin should, at the very least, be the safe tank. Warrior can be used as tank to kill things faster but it should not have higher overall survivability than Paladin.

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PLD is designed as a self sufficiant job, they are designed (admittedly very poorly) on healing themselves to keep hate, whereas WAR is desinged on raw damage to keep hate (for the tanking role) here is the problem, PLD does not have the MP to be much use, if PLD was given alot more MP or thier cure ability cost less MP, they would instanly become useful.

In FFXI (I know this again) as long as a PLD had refresh they could keep healing themselves to keep hate, if it was a fight that required PLD/NIN (no provoke) this was even more important, it also gives healers a chance (bombshell inc) to heal DDs which allows people to use DDs in big fights.

Buff PLD's MP and lower thier cure abilities MP cost, to make them instantly useful for tanking.

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Originally Posted by Gennosuke

This is not actually a whm/blm comparison to war/pld. The only reason i used Blm in my example is because the person i replied to has a thm class as main in his profile so i attempted to relate to that. Nevertheless, my point in that reply was more along the lines of what Delsus mentioned above. It was specifically against the idea of just buffing up other jobs instead of nerfing jobs where needed.



Ok, so Both War and Pld are intentionally designed as tanks primarily with a secondary role of DPS for War and Healer for Pld.

There are a few problems with this design when compared to the rest of the jobs and this is where the issue lies.

What exactly are the secondary roles of Mnk and Drg? How defined and how efficient are they? No one invites mnk or Drg with a secondary role in mind. They are simply seen as DD. If anything, you could say Evasion for mnk and TP for DRG eventually may translate into a better DPS outcome (whether thru bit more survivability or more WS).

For a melee, the 2 main areas (as of now atleast) that they fit into are tanking and DPS. Fortunately for war (and unfortunately for others), War excels in both. All the other melee really suck at any clear-cut defined secondary role, especially in the harder battles.

In this case, one of 2 solutions is required. Either War gets a nerf on the secondary role, i.e Dps nerf and becomes as crappy at that secondary role as the rest of the melee jobs are at their secondary role or.. all the other jobs get a big boost and well defined secondary roles that actually makes a real significant impact in any battle.
Trust me, i am more than happy going as a Monk evasion tank in an Ifrit battle but i don't see that happening anytime soon.

That is the whole idea of balance here. You can't equate Tank + DPS to any of the other puny combinations we have at the moment. Tanking and DPS'ing in the same time is overkill. This is what makes War problematic balance-wise and is the reason they're favoured in almost all situations.

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Generally in just about every MMO created (not all but most) tank classes always have a secondary role, where as DPS usually only have the one role. Just because the tank classes have two roles(which is common and which mentioned before PLDs secondary is weak compared to WAR) doesn't mean that every job has to have a secondary in fact the only other job that does is BRD.

People are stuck in this linear view that there should always only be one main tank. Views like that limit the ability to increase the amount of content playable due to the fact of waiting for said class to begin (right now if WAR is not available a PLD can always substitute or vice versa) We seen this when CNJ became "the" healer of the game instead of both CNJ and THM being good enough for either main healing.

As for the comment concerning boosting DPS roles (BLM/DRG/MNK) because of how well WAR secondary is any good DRG/MNK/BLM will out dps a good WAR already so I dont see the point. I agree Steel Cyclone is a bit OP and should be adjusted I just dont agree with the reasons. Reason should be because the class is to powerful because of being able to use steel cyclone every 30 seconds not because WAR is a better tank than PLD which is debatable in every point aside from damage output and HP levels.

My biggest issue are coments made by folks that obviously have no clue and are just jumping on the nerf bandwagon (you excluded of course because you do have a recollection of some of the issues)

Warrior damage output gives better enmity than any stacked + enmity gear that is exclusive to PLD.
Warrior has superior HP, Defense and resistance ratings, without a shield.

How does this not make them the end all, be all tank?

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Warrior damage output gives better enmity than any stacked + enmity gear that is exclusive to PLD.
Warrior has superior HP, Defense and resistance ratings, without a shield.

How does this not make them the end all, be all tank?

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is anyone saying they are not superior? I dont think anyone in this thread is.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

is anyone saying they are not superior? I dont think anyone in this thread is.

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They shouldnt be as far as tanking goes. Thats the point.

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Originally Posted by Morticous

They shouldnt be as far as tanking goes. Thats the point.

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agreed, but I also dont think PLD should be superior either, I think they should both fairly be just as viable with both focusing on a different strength, WAR more DPS, PLD more survivability.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

agreed, but I also dont think PLD should be superior either, I think they should both fairly be just as viable with both focusing on a different strength, WAR more DPS, PLD more survivability.

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Yes war should be the riskier of the two putting more damage out but less Def where PLD should have far more def as a much safer but less dps tank.

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Originally Posted by Morticous

Yes war should be the riskier of the two putting more damage out but less Def where PLD should have far more def as a much safer but less dps tank.

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I think that would be ideal, SE really needs to re-evaluate the PLD.

still wanna know what hes doing to steel cyclone...

not "pld vs war" debating.

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Originally Posted by Squiggles

still wanna know what hes doing to steel cyclone...

not "pld vs war" debating.

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WAR should have a niche that they are the ideal tank, and PLD should have a niche where it is instead an ideal tank.

Overpowered skills like steel cyclone contribute to how much more irrelevant PLD has become to WAR. That is why it is still on topic, because it is a big reason why Yoshi decided to "nerf" steel cyclone.

Why are people looking at this like it's a bad thing? Warrior is actually not changing that much. Beserk is getting a buff as well as whirlwind while collusion and steel cyclone are getting nerfed. I mean come on, if you bloodbath a steel cyclone you get full health majority of the time.

Plus it's a good thing. Warrior will still be a good DD and back up tank while also bringing Paladin back into the picture.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Why are people looking at this like it's a bad thing? Warrior is actually not changing that much. Beserk is getting a buff as well as whirlwind while collusion and steel cyclone are getting nerfed. I mean come on, if you bloodbath a steel cyclone you get full health majority of the time.

Plus it's a good thing. Warrior will still be a good DD and back up tank while also bringing Paladin back into the picture.

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nobody uses berserk or whirlwind, infact i very rarely see a DD war to begin with. warrior always be tanking,

You could cut steel cyclone damage in half and they'd still be more useful than a paladin.

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Originally Posted by Squiggles

nobody uses berserk or whirlwind, infact i very rarely see a DD war to begin with. warrior always be tanking,

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Because everyone is so focused on them being tanks. The point of the patch is to make Paladin's more viable and giving Beserk an actual use. Whirlwind isn't bad, I must be the only MRD/WAR that uses it lol

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Originally Posted by Leoheart

Exactly; Paladin does not suffer from an inability to tank, if you're struggling to tank on pld, you're doing it wrong.
I'll agree on the fact that Pld does need a bit more HP, but it mainly suffers from it's inability to do damage and nothing else.

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Pld as a tank has typically never been a high damage job, it's not meant to be a DD, but I agree that it is in desperate need of both an HP boost and accuracy, it would at least make Pld a viable tank again.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Because everyone is so focused on them being tanks. The point of the patch is to make Paladin's more viable and giving Beserk an actual use. Whirlwind isn't bad, I must be the only MRD/WAR that uses it lol

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Not the only one, I tend to use fracture and overpower as well when I parry.

I would like to see the main stats changed a bit. WAR's main starts are STR and VIT, I think? Thats why they have huge HP pools.

MNK should have VIT as the second stat. VIT gives more HP and MNK has had VIT and more HP as a trait in the past.

And PLD needs a bit of VIT as a main stat for HP and def.

So maybe change WAR's main stats to STR and INT or something. MNK can have STR and VIT. PLD VIT and some STR and MND.

WAR should be STR/VIT, Monk should be STR/INT and Paladin should be VIT/MND. No way Warrior should have INT as a stat for any reason.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Why are people looking at this like it's a bad thing? Warrior is actually not changing that much. Beserk is getting a buff as well as whirlwind while collusion and steel cyclone are getting nerfed. I mean come on, if you bloodbath a steel cyclone you get full health majority of the time.

Plus it's a good thing. Warrior will still be a good DD and back up tank while also bringing Paladin back into the picture.

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breaking one thing doesn't fix the other.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

breaking one thing doesn't fix the other.

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You seriously think its going to break the job? Have a little faith. WAR will not lose relevance, its role will simply be more focused. As these jobs were initially designed.

PLD: Protection
WAR: Crowd control
MNK: Fast Melee
DRG: Critical Melee
BRD: Wild card support
WHM: Healer
BLM: Nuker

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

You seriously think its going to break the job? Have a little faith. WAR will not lose relevance, its role will simply be more focused. As these jobs were initially designed.

PLD: Protection
WAR: Crowd control
MNK: Fast Melee
DRG: Critical Melee
BRD: Wild card support
WHM: Healer
BLM: Nuker

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I'd rather get a blm with sleepga for crowd control.
A pld for tanking if war now sucks at it.
And a mnk for DDing if I need a melee DD.

berserker is going to have to sky rocket war's damage output for this nerf not to break the job. and even then you are reducing war to "uhh well, no pld? lets get a war" or "uhh I guess we could get a war to DD... there's nothing else available"

It's funny that you will defend the class/job that you play. Warrior is OP right now. Don't deny it. And this "breaking" the class is NOT because Paladin sucks. It's because Warrior is OP. Devs said it themselves.

OP MRD IS OP. Can't deny that at all, and here I got all excited that PLD had some decent damage mediation to tank properly... just to find out that MRD can do the same while out damaging us. : /

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Originally Posted by Scotchio

I would like to see the main stats changed a bit. WAR's main starts are STR and VIT, I think? Thats why they have huge HP pools.

MNK should have VIT as the second stat. VIT gives more HP and MNK has had VIT and more HP as a trait in the past.

And PLD needs a bit of VIT as a main stat for HP and def.

So maybe change WAR's main stats to STR and INT or something. MNK can have STR and VIT. PLD VIT and some STR and MND.

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Actually I think they should just remove the special stat boost all together and just have the stats be the standard use then balance the calculations around that.

Even with this change Paladin is still worse than Warrior unfortunately

So much idiocy and false assumptions in this thread.

Part of the problem is the way enmity is calculated. The stats are all messed up and anyone with half a brain can see this.

There is also nothing wrong with being able to do two things which PLD and WAR can both do. WAR's single target DPS is absolute ass, hence why almost nobody wants them for anything but tanking. The only people crying out on them being OP are crazed PLD's who want the only viable tank to be PLD, or people who see steel cyclone spam in Natalan and assume SC does huge damage on everything. Yes, PLD needs to be buffed and cooldown on SC needs to be reduced to 1 minute but most here are going on as if Warrior out DPS's everything and is a significantly superior tank to PLD. Yes it is better at the moment but there isn't a huge chasm that most make it out to be.

Monks and Dragoons shouldn't be complaining about WAR either, your single target dps isn't a little better than WAR, it's a lot better.

Exhibit #1 - A monk on chimera out dpsing everybody and accidentally pulling hate from the war tank. Dragoons can do similar damage if they're halfway decent and avoid the attacks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=adYtCSg53Bc

Yes, Steel Cyclone is a wee bit overpowered but a longer cooldown would alleviate this. Don't look at AOE spam on trash mobs and assume it is indicative of how things work in the other aspects of the game.

Yes, PLD needs a buff to be brought up to the level of Warrior but crying bloody murder over one weapon skill is ridiculous.

Darkillumina

I have to disagree as the developers said WAR at the min can DD, Hold Emnity, and Tank effectively and also through the crazy critical hits from SC and Rampage it can also heal effectively. With the right gear WARs can do close to 20k damage in a boss fight compared to 4-8k PLDs can do (I know some may be able to push that). All in all even if the PLD does 10k damage in a fight against say misers mistress you can bet the WAR while tanking more effectively through taking less damage due to parry and rampage heals (which are slightly op at the min) will be doing 15k damage. THis is all speculation based on values I hear shouted to me from parsers. fact is WAR does around 5-10k more damage than any PLD while being a btter tank. That my friend is OP and is getting nerfed for good reason tanking ability should go

PLD>WAR>MNK=DRG

DD ability should go MNK=DRG>WAR>>>>>>>>>>>PLD

Right now PLD struggles to compare in shear tanking ability !. now im not saying PLD should be the only tank but I am holding a big shield and I should TAKE SIGNIFICANTLY LESS DAMAGE and in return for holding a heavy shield that protects me I do significantly less damage as well.

Further to my post

Let me point out WAR should be the class that holds second place in the hate tables and is the Oh shit off tank for if the PLD dies or hate resets.

I have played in parties as PLD and war and played in parties with both PLD and waar in them.

The two classes work extremely well together especially in a melee group were the war can sit comfortably at second hate position.

Paladin is just not a DD , warrior is , so i can see pally not being able to deal high damage :) but pally should be able to get more hate and ofc stand longer, increased defense .
By the way does that mean when they nerf War they finaly gonna nerf blm too.. their dmg output is rediculous high compared to other classes/jobs so im hoping they will balance it more.

I'm welcoming the changes. Not because it's a WAR nerf, but because it's a balance. I am assuming SC's additional damage from Rampage would be reduced, but on the other hand they are buffing berserk and Whirlwind damage. I generally go as DPS WAR on Garuda and let me tell you, already damage is great with the way berserk is currently. I'm looking forward to the changes come 1.22b.

We all know pally isn't DD but the dmg pally does is laughable. Full combo vs a boss like 290 dmg total, add to the fact that your second ws does like 40-60 dmg and then gives a bonus of 4.5 which is almost less then a provoke most of the time. PLD should be doing half the dmg an DD does.

PLD needs a dmg boost but not a big one, it also needs to take less dmg than war on normal hits something like 30% less dmg. War should take 900 dmg on normal attack on coin counter and pld should take 600 dmg.

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Originally Posted by Isaaru

I'm welcoming the changes. Not because it's a WAR nerf, but because it's a balance. I am assuming SC's additional damage from Rampage would be reduced, but on the other hand they are buffing berserk and Whirlwind damage. I generally go as DPS WAR on Garuda and let me tell you, already damage is great with the way berserk is currently. I'm looking forward to the changes come 1.22b.

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Yay a sensible WAR

I too love DPS on war with beserk and positioning its alot of fun :)

Bring on the new changes

Its going to be funny as hell once war can't tank effectively anymore and you need to sit 5 hours shouting for a pld for ifrit, moogle, garuda.

These thread are really funny.
I love all the "A well equipped something can do the same as a WAR"
We should create a "Big damage" guide:
- DRG section : Gather all the best stuff you can. Use all your offensive buffs (The ones on LNC, and the ones from others classes). Position yourself from the flank. Unleash your most powerful combo.
- WAR section : Use your WS
And you still don't understand why WAR is being nerfed...

And if you're afraid of waiting hours for PLD, you can always level up you GLA. Curious, i think that's what everyone suggested regarding MRD when PLDs complained about waiting hours for an invite.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

Its going to be funny as hell once war can't tank effectively anymore and you need to sit 5 hours shouting for a pld for ifrit, moogle, garuda.

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I seriously doubt that will be the case. In my LS alone we've got 4 Paladins with a couple others leveling it currently for the future. These aren't just people who have the job, these are people who would be willing to play it if it were as viable as Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

Not the only one, I tend to use fracture and overpower as well when I parry.

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I use it as well but not that often due to the overwhelmingly long animation lock, fracture and overpower I use as well since you can use both on one parry if you are quick enough

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Originally Posted by Sasagawa

Darkillumina

I have to disagree as the developers said WAR at the min can DD, Hold Emnity, and Tank effectively and also through the crazy critical hits from SC and Rampage it can also heal effectively. With the right gear WARs can do close to 20k damage in a boss fight compared to 4-8k PLDs can do (I know some may be able to push that). All in all even if the PLD does 10k damage in a fight against say misers mistress you can bet the WAR while tanking more effectively through taking less damage due to parry and rampage heals (which are slightly op at the min) will be doing 15k damage. THis is all speculation based on values I hear shouted to me from parsers. fact is WAR does around 5-10k more damage than any PLD while being a btter tank. That my friend is OP and is getting nerfed for good reason tanking ability should go

PLD>WAR>MNK=DRG

DD ability should go MNK=DRG>WAR>>>>>>>>>>>PLD

Right now PLD struggles to compare in shear tanking ability !. now im not saying PLD should be the only tank but I am holding a big shield and I should TAKE SIGNIFICANTLY LESS DAMAGE and in return for holding a heavy shield that protects me I do significantly less damage as well.

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this is a bit misleading as in 1 the only time a WAR is gonna out DD a MNK or DRG is if the MNK or DRG suck balls or 2 if the WAR is tanking (meaning it doesn't have to move away from things to avoid damage thus allowing it to continuously DPS without interruption if the MNK and DRG also doesnt have to move then they should out DPS WAR without issues). And really you shouldn't compare PLD DPS to a WAR when it is already established and a well known fact that WAR is supposed to out DPS a PLD.

still not a fan of nerfing one class to fix another. War is awesome at close range combat, SE should think about why and apply that to dragoon. Im hoping that collusion still has at least 75% hate transfer and steel cyclones cooldown use goes to 40 seconds to be even with aura pulse.(if they stated the exact fix yet i haven't seen it)

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Originally Posted by Krausus

this is a bit misleading as in 1 the only time a WAR is gonna out DD a MNK or DRG is if the MNK or DRG suck balls or 2 if the WAR is tanking (meaning it doesn't have to move away from things to avoid damage thus allowing it to continuously DPS without interruption if the MNK and DRG also doesnt have to move then they should out DPS WAR without issues). And really you shouldn't compare PLD DPS to a WAR when it is already established and a well known fact that WAR is supposed to out DPS a PLD.

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Isnt that what i said

MNK=DRG approximately in damage they are both greater than WAR who is much greater than PLD ?

also im pretty confident this symbol > means greater than