The New Sage Icon, Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

So why the heck changing the job icon

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

i don't think that redesign took more than 30min.

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I think you've answered your own question there.

It turned into a big discussion on the JP forums and it seems it was an easy enough fix to do in very little time, as opposed to ripping out entire sections of walls in dungeons and changing monster models.

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Originally Posted by Bellsong

You're Whataboutism is correct, we're better off not changing anything ever unless we change everything always.

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Well yeah, i don't argue against the change. Not at all. It's good SE is changing things. It still doesn't matter since XIV is full of holes, just visit Ul'dah on Balmung! Until they fix that this fix here has literally no meaning since the poor triggered fellas will be anyways triggered.

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Originally Posted by Yencat

I think you've answered your own question there.

It turned into a big discussion on the JP forums and it seems it was an easy enough fix to do in very little time, as opposed to ripping out entire sections of walls in dungeons and changing monster models.

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Yeah exactly, i said the change itself isn't bad at all. It's good SE is changing things. And as i said i don't think it took any development time at all. So no negative impact on the rest of us. BUT the game is literally full of holes still, what do they plan to do about that? Why showing virtue with the poor phobia people when the game is basically a phobia swamp. Which is normal ofc.

What i try to say is, SE has a really weak reasoning in this one not cause they changed it or cause there are just a few with phobias. But it's literally a change for nothing and they didn't showed any commitment in their statement that they want to change these things too, which would obviously be too much, but as i said weak reasoning then when they care enough to change a little icon people mostly ignore and then having big triggering honeycombs all over the place.

It's like...we care about you fellas but not enough to make any real change.

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

Well yeah, i don't argue against the change. Not at all. It's good SE is changing things. It still doesn't matter since XIV is full of holes, just visit Ul'dah on Balmung! Until they fix that this fix here has literally no meaning since the poor triggered fellas will be anyways triggered.

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Not everything with holes in it will trigger trypophobia, I feel this should be pretty obvious.

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

Yeah exactly, i said the change itself isn't bad at all. It's good SE is changing things. And as i said i don't think it took any development time at all. So no negative impact on the rest of us. BUT the game is literally full of holes still, what do they plan to do about that? Why showing virtue with the poor phobia people when the game is basically a phobia swamp. Which is normal ofc.

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Trypophobia is for EXTREMELY specific patterns of holes that do not generally exist in the game.

It isn't virtue signaling to fix an extremely easy to solve problem with essentially no cost. As others have pointed out, what you are doing is textbook 'whataboutism.' The fact that some people may be afraid of... I dunno, heights... has nothing to do with this specific issue with a fix that comes at literally no cost.

The strength of the reasoning just needs to relate to the cost of the change. This is a zero cost change, so basically any reason to fix it is valid. Meanwhile say... removing all ghosts from the game would come at a pretty extreme cost, and so despite the fact that a fear of ghosts/spirits exists, its not something SE is going to explore. Its not a hard concept to grasp.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Not everything with holes in it will trigger trypophobia.

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No joke? Never heard that before! Guess that's why crabs don't trigger my spider phobia.

Jokes aside, sure not every hole triggers that specific phobia but there are still clearly dozens of patterns in the game that can clearly trigger people with such phobias. So why showing that you "care" about them and then letting them fall anyways like hot popotos since you can't ban honeycombs from the game cause you need these juicy beloved designs.

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

Yeah exactly, i said the change itself isn't bad at all. It's good SE is changing things. And as i said i don't think it took any development time at all. So no negative impact on the rest of us. BUT the game is literally full of holes still, what do they plan to do about that? Why showing virtue with the poor phobia people when the game is basically a phobia swamp. Which is normal ofc.

What i try to say is, SE has a really weak reasoning in this one not cause they changed it or cause there are just a few with phobias. But it's literally a change for nothing and they didn't showed any commitment in their statement that they want to change these things too, which would obviously too much but as i said, weak reasoning then when they care enough to change a little icon people mostly ignore and then having big triggering honeycombs all over the place. It's like...we care about you fellas but not enough to make any real change.

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They probably don't actually see this as a big problem that needs big sweeping changes all over the game either, but this wasn't in the game yet and probably took no time to fix?

They didn't make any sort of statement or commitment to changing everything in the game to remove everyone's phobias, the post itself says that right now there's still time to change things and that since the icon will appear prominently in the game and on merchandise so they changed it.

People said "we don't like it" they said "okay, it's just an icon and not in the game yet so we'll change it", I really don't think it's much deeper than that.

Man, that JP forum has hundreds of likes and stuff too. Weird that so many JP players actually felt strongly about it. Then again, their choice in character fashion is uhh >_> notably lacking compared to ours, I feel, at least within that thread so... hmmm. What is the JP playerbase really like, anyway?

I'd heard of tryptophobia before from some FFXIah people. I guess if you did have a full party of Sages, it might meet the criteria. One icon by itself wouldn't though, but maybe that's my ignorance talking.

I personally kinda wish instead of having the Nouliths pointing straight down, they could have had them slanted at an angle, with bright starry icons at their tips, rather than loops on their end. I guess maybe the loops were supposed to be like the eyes of the Nouliths? There's a small blue orb at the base, but idk, felt like they shoulda focused on their fin aspect anyway, as both icons look more like WHM canes with different heads to me.

No, ya'll don't get it! Clearly a minor change to a niche problem under the special circumstance of the content not being released yet and easily being changed while still having hundreds of hours of dev time allotted to it CLEARLY means there should be sweeping changes to the whole game, else this action is pointless!

Never heard of trypophobia before.
The more you know.

I don't see the issue here. They got enough feedback on something that could easily be changed without any downside, so they changed it. Nothing was actually removed and we've seen no evidence that they've been on a crusade to turn the game into "Teletubbies online". They aren't going to alter any parts of the game that would impact development time unless in extreme circumstances, but this is a tiny change and the feedback obviously existed so they figured, "sure, why not".

People are blowing up over nothing.

I rather suspect that there is no actual hostility involved and disbelief is simply being expressed instead. Furthermore, I also imagine changes such as this lead some people to question past and future design choices and plot elements. I've suspected for a while that story direction may change drastically based on 'feels' and so I don't like such a mentality to be pandered to. Let alone when it's dressed up in a way to encourage people to rush to proclaim how amazing the development team is for being so thoughtful.

To say nothing of the fact that some people may simply prefer the old design to the new one.

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Originally Posted by Bellsong

No, ya'll don't get it! Clearly a minor change to a niche problem under the special circumstance of the content not being released yet and easily being changed while still having hundreds of hours of dev time allotted to it CLEARLY means there should be sweeping changes to the whole game, else this action is pointless!

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It is pointless exactly. The change did nothing for these people since the stuff that still can trigger them is still in the game. So yeah big surprise, they will still get triggered in some situations probably.

But i agree "I changed the appetizer so your peanut allergy won't kill you but the rest of the food will still kill you" is a good start! Enjoy the game...well...at least when it comes to looking at your job symbols and not playing the game. And don't even start playing culinarian, honeycombs galore!

Some of you have no empathy and it shows.
It's easy to ignore something for a quick moment in a dungeon or just avoid doing said thing, because there is usually some alternative. But for the job icon, you would literally see it all the time. While the phobia may not make sense to you, it still really affects people and the fact that the dev team wants to make sure most people can play as comfortably as possible should be applauded instead of... Whatever is going on here.

On the icon itself I feel like they should just stick to the orginal design and just fill in the holes.

I have some big entomophobia AND bigger arachnophobia in real life. I'm not expecting video games to remove those things from it.
The reasoning for the change is really ridiculously silly and people who thought they needed this must be made of paper. Do you also run away from any little thing that makes you uncomfortable IRL even when it's something you're meant to deal with?Give me a break with the "no empathy" excuse.

I also have fear of heights to the point I get paralyzed if I'm close to fences and ledges. Maybe I should ask for them to not have any area where I can look down when we're really high up, like Mt Gulg and Leap of Faith. What, you have no empathy?

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Originally Posted by Infindox

Some of you have no empathy and it shows.
It's easy to ignore something for a quick moment in a dungeon or just avoid doing said thing, because there is usually some alternative. But for the job icon, you would literally see it all the time. While the phobia may not make sense to you, it still really affects people and the fact that the dev team wants to make sure most people can play as comfortably as possible should be applauded instead of... Whatever is going on here.

On the icon itself I feel like they should just stick to the orginal design and just fill in the holes.

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So showing virtue when it's easy and doesn't cost much and gives good publicity is good enough but when it comes to other things it's all of the sudden way too much. Gotcha! And there are many patterns in the game which could potentially trigger that phobia, not only in the dungeon.

And do people really look that often at job icons? I basically ignore them all the time, heck i don't even know how they look like right now and i would have to look it up even tho i have multiple characters with all the jobs at 80. xD

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

I have some big entomophobia AND bigger arachnophobia in real life. I'm not expecting video games to remove those things from it.
The reasoning for the change is really ridiculously silly and people who thought they needed this must be made of paper. Do you also run away from any little thing that makes you uncomfortable IRL even when it's something you're meant to deal with?Give me a break with the "no empathy" excuse.

I also have fear of heights to the point I get paralyzed if I'm close to fences and ledges. Maybe I should ask for them to not have any area where I can look down when we're really high up, like Mt Gulg and Leap of Faith. What, you have no empathy?

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I think what people aren't getting is that the icon is visible like... All the time in content. Where you can avoid the content that bothers you normally or deal with it long enough. I don't go into the salt lake in The Lochs unless i absolutely have to because something about it gives me the creeps... But since you don't really have to go under there that often it's something that I can just "grin and bare it".

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

Never heard of trypophobia before.
The more you know.

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Fun fact, tryptophobia, not being a real phobia and instead a disgust reaction (and thus actually something that can more easily be triggered through a game unlike more standard phobias) is actually a memetic hazard, and can be developed after learning about it and the shapes in question being pointed out!

So while the cost of this fix was quite low and caring about it is very silly, the cost of the conversation in the first place is likely that some people developed it! Hurray!

We need a second calamity.

I came here expecting compassion and empathy and boy was I wrong.

I for one applaud them. It's a little thing that you'd see everywhere in the menus and it's nice of them to be considerate of that. As others have said, it's a pretty easy change and isn't a slippery slope to 'omg they're removing everything scary'

This kind of thing isn't like... 'oh that's disgusting', it can trigger terrible reactions in people, like extreme negative physical reactions.

These forums:

"I've provided feedback about <insert thing I personally want to see changed/added> and SE still hasn't done it, I wish they would listen to their playerbase more" :(

Also these forums;

"Can you believe they actually listened to feedback about <insert thing I don't care about> from the playerbase? Pandering! Virtue signaling!" :mad:

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Originally Posted by Bellsong

We need a second calamity.

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Agreed, maybe that will purge all the plants etc. in dungeons which could trigger people. Please never visit old amdapor if you have that phobia.

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Originally Posted by Bellsong

We need a second calamity.

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A giant piece of flaming honeycomb falling from the sky, yes.

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

Agreed, maybe that will purge all the plants etc. in dungeons which could trigger people. Please never visit old amdapor if you have that phobia.

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Glad we could agree! Now if you'll excuse me I have to buy a new car, my last one had a flat tire so clearly I needed to just replace the whole thing! I need it to get over this mountain people made out of a molehill.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Our lizards are going to go extinct.

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All Au Ra will go extinct, because of their sharp, pointy tails or horns.


But jokes aside. How comes, that some textures didnt trigger trypophobia for years. But a tiny job icon does now?

Look at this head gear for example:

(warning: not suitable for people suffering from the following phobias: glaucophobia, aichmophobia, trypophobia and more)

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...1230/ffxiv.jpg

Can somebody explain, how this is less fearsome?

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

Agreed, maybe that will purge all the plants etc. in dungeons which could trigger people. Please never visit old amdapor if you have that phobia.

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Dont visit the ruby sea (open world!) then...

https://i.imgur.com/LFTQptC.jpg

It's pretty strange for certain posters to imply that people lack empathy for not celebrating what many see as a needless change.

There's nothing virtuous about treating people with kid's gloves. You could pick any number of phobias out there and find people playing the game who have them. Yet it is neither feasible or realistic to remove any content that would offend or upset as then...there wouldn't be anything left to play.

It also falsely assumes that the people rolling their eyes at the change do not suffer from various fears and aversions themselves. Yet, certainly, many who do hold no desire to rob other people of the chance to enjoy something that they themselves happen to dislike.

Despite being stabbed, for example, I don't expect or want any pointy object in the game to be removed.

Quietly changing the icon without a lengthy song and dance would have been the prudent course as far as I'm concerned. We already have a disclaimer in place stating that the final product of Endwalker may differ from what is seen in development after all.

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

So showing virtue when it's easy and doesn't cost much and gives good publicity is good enough but when it comes to other things it's all of the sudden way too much. Gotcha!

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If there was a button in front of me that I could press that would improve your life in some small way, with no negative effects towards me whatsoever, you'd presumably want me to press it?
I don't see any reason why you wouldn't, and I don't see any real reason why I wouldn't press it either. It costs me nothing and helps you out.

It's not quite the same thing if pushing said button requires a lot of time and effort though.

I actually liked the old one. To those who say oh this is a small change and they never have changed stuff before to suit a certain crowd either are too new to the game or forgot why ARR is the way it is even for us. It has almost no blood shown and the few body dismemberments that happen are that way because of the Chinese. In order to sell the game to that audience they had to abide to not have those things shown. They also had to add things to the skeletons as they find them too spooky. The skeleton part is only for the Chinese version obviously. So, what concern there is about this change can be seen as valid since they've already done so in the past.

I didn't find the old sage icon disgusting and I don't like the new one at all. If anything, the single sole open hole in the bottom feels more sexually suggestive if you catch my drift because its now way more noticeable being the only hole. I wasn't really a fan of either icon and honestly I don't like the new one any more or any less.

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

Please remove spiders from the game i am afraid of spiders

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This is much more reasonable than what has occurred. Achondroplasiaphobia needs to be addressed by deleting all lalas in the game, can you imagine being unable to avoid your phobia and being forced to interact with them on a daily bases?

Reasoning aside, I like it slightly better now but it still doesn't have that iconic look the other jobs have. I would have preferred something with the Sharlayan logo if anything, more akin to DNC's icon. Reaper's one also looks kinda meh to me.

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Originally Posted by Remish

I didn't find the old sage icon disgusting and I don't like the new one at all. If anything, the single sole open hole in the bottom feels more sexually suggestive if you catch my drift because its now way more noticeable being the only hole. I wasn't really a fan of either icon and honestly I don't like the new one any more or any less.

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Just one of them having a hole does look a bit silly, they should fill that one in too.

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Originally Posted by ChiefDork

This is much more reasonable than what has occurred. Achondroplasiaphobia needs to be addressed by deleting all lalas in the game, can you imagine being unable to avoid your phobia and being forced to interact with them on a daily bases?

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But please also all races taller than Hyur cause gigantasophobia! We could just delete the whole game before we give the developers atelophobia.

I wasn't even attached to the old version anyway. The new design still looks nice.

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Originally Posted by Scott

I like the new Icon better so I don't really care that much.
But If we start to remove everything that could trigger a Phobia in the game like "Darkness, Spiders, etc" we soon will have Teletubbys Online.... but I bet someone out there would be afraid of that too.

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Have you even SEEN the Teletubbies bear? That thing was and is absolutely terrifying!

I don't mind the new icon and wasn't particularly attached to the old one, so if this change helps out some players I don't really see the problem. I'm not sure there's many job icons that I really like overall. Some feel too blatant (hur dur, it's an axe) and some feel too over-designed. There's very few that really hit that sweet spot of feeling, well, iconic to the job while still being clearly read. SAM is probably my favourite. I wasn't even sure what it was at first but as soon as an FC member explained it, it really clicked and I quite like it now.

For those who are claiming that this fear somehow isn't a real thing, horror manga author Junji Ito actually wrote an entire story based on this fear and it's considered by many to be one of the most disturbing things he's ever written. So, yeah, just because it doesn't trigger that response in you doesn't mean it's not potentially a problem.

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Originally Posted by weebtext

Have you even SEEN the Teletubbies bear? That thing was and is absolutely terrifying!

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Man, I remember reading a short story ages ago about a world where they slowly removed everything challenging, harmful and potentially offensive. The big twist at the end was that the narrator was one of the Teletubbies.

You could see the general direction it was going from a mile away, but I thought it was reasonably well written and the pay-off was a nice mix of funny and horrifying. Never been able to find it again though :(

I like it.
Very pleasing and modern.

RIP the people making/buying Sage job merch on Etsy though.

Honestly kinda sad to see this. I really liked the old sage design and this new one looks…not good. If they’re worrying so much about phobia’s now i guess they’re gonna have to change 90% of the game to accommodate that lmao. Is this just the generation of being “woke” now?Like, what about all of the serious, triggering themes the game involves like yknow, sastasha and the women there having to deal with…yknow.

Honestly.., would of been better of if they hadnt told us at all.
the solution would of just been filling all the holes in the original design, simple done. even much faster than the other change that was put even more effort on.
like others said, if a change was wanted(which clearly if they wanted to change it, they wanted to make it more noticeable a change, SE seems to have taken the, its either a big change or no change at all stance for this) they could of gone with multiple designs. ones that stick more to how they imagined the original one, since the difference between the old one(which was pretty simple and not too intricate, but sleek) and new icon isnt much at all but expansion of a feature and three holes filled.
its seems clear to me that the original design seem to follow a more ordered and uniform direction, yet these changes kinda throw it out the window.
(if asked, id say just fill the original holes, or choose between the centered ones of the side ones ~i doubt two holes alone in a line between themselves would trigger said phobia)

while i do not have said phobia, it is one that gets forced on you if you pay too much attention on it in the first place, or care too much about it in the first place.(hence why SE shouldnt even have posted about it at, ALL. hardly any would bat an eye, only those in JP would know it.) that said (looking at that gray mask, it does kinda push it onto me, but its more the low quality texture, than the actual "phobia" and more about thoughts of it that pattern was actual on oneself in a place it should not)

if it was to be voted on. id vote no change at all, or fill the original icons holes, (or better yet, have the center filled with an extra ring between the edge of the nouliths and its now filled center, but thats just an idea im throwing out on how they could of just made it more than just alternating some pixels to another color)

from my viewpoint, the opinion of no change really has more weight behind it(or make creative changes to it if the phobia was the actual point of change in the first place)
these changes feel like the pull away from what they originally intended(while not bad, but while icons are easily ignored, no matter how many say you cant avoid them. itll be forever etched.)

all i can see now is the original thoughts behind its design are partially thrown out now..,