Would skill based match making be good for FFXIV?

I understand the concept, but... why? Duty finder was specifically designed to connect players with different level of skill. I personally enjoy guiding less experienced players, and most of the peeps I've met were the same. If there is someone new or a first timer, I usually ask the tank to slow down a bit. This was never a problem. Not to mention a similar tool is already implemented in the game, party finder should be good enough for that purpose.
https://i.imgur.com/oVND7hL.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Unfortunately, Rinhi, there is no surefire way to help newbies learn their jobs. You could explain how and why another skill is so good, or that doing combos is amazing, but we really have to operate by the adage, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

All of your examples are longer than the standard tooltip for skills, and most newbies don't even read those.

In my experience, the only time newbies want and ask and are receptive to help is when they are having problems desperate enough to prevent simply clearing the content. All other times they see advice as, "Minmaxing" even if it's something as innocuous as, "Hey, uhm, could you please use your weaponskills? You've just been auto attacking this whole time."

In regards to Krojack talking to you about it, personally I think they don't get into roulettes enough. I've seen tons of people trying to help, even in the nicest way possible given guff or stonefaced silence over the years. In FFXIV.

---

mhm, that's why I react allergic to the notion that it's the fault of the people trying to help because "they word it wrong" or some other excuse
like, you can read a negative tone into the most innocuous attempts at helping:
the aforementioned examples can be seen as condescending and talking down, if you do it without the niceties you're demanding, if you fluff it up like "hey, I'm not sure you've noticed/realized, but [...]" or "I've seen you do X and Y, but A and B is straight up better because etc!" can be seen as passive aggressive and stuff, you just can't win

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wavaryen

I mean you are posting on the forums so I figure you wanted the help. Clearly you need it as you don't know how to help people in the right way without them getting offended. Unlike these players. Clearly you are asking help because people don't want too listen to you in a pug. So glad I could help. If you need more help. Let me know.

---

not toxic btw, not gonna dignify your pure drivel with a response anymore since you're a lost cause intent on just being a toxic prick at this point because people dared to disagree and argue with you
though, it's funny how upset you get when people use your own flawed logic against you, since you always lash out like a child in response

Just don't give unsolicited advice. Kick or leave, if you feel it's necessary, I say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Artemiz

Without a doubt this is possible, queue times could increase but the strength of the SBMM can easily be tightened or relaxed. The statistics used for determining skill are obviously a big debate, it doesn't have to be too complicated though. Consider players who have cleared current savage as high tier, players yet to complete ARR MSQ low tier, something like that.

---

Frankly, matchmaking wouldn't even work in general PvE content in the first place, there are just too many variables, and it'd be overall detrimental. I do not see this as the answer. It barely works in PvP games, granted one problem with those are players actually trying to game the system, like with new accounts, or throwing matches, to get into the lower end.

I don't know. DF seems pretty ok to me. If you want to flex your skills, just use the PF instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

All of your examples are longer than the standard tooltip for skills, and most newbies don't even read those.

---

Big this ^

It all goes back to the simple fact that it really doesn't matter if people bother to read tooltips or not. Why should they? It's a waste of time and effort no? I can pass every duty up until Extremes by gently pressing my face on the keyboard paying particular attention to an auto follow hotkey if needed.

Not only does this game actively turn a blind eye to all but the most extreme cases of ignorance in duties, it also has a tendency to discourage and punish those that actually try? Try to help others and you'll always get those that'll just report you no matter how polite and civil you were. Get the wrong GM and you'll end up with a suspension for your efforts. Try to help yourself? Sure, just don't speak about it in game or again, you risk a suspension.

Until this is tackled, things will never improve.

Someone didn't notice the 80+ thread of just asking a way to help teach people get better. I know this isn't asking for that. Even though it might seem like a good idea you'd still get people cheesing the system. I don't know how the current feast works, but I do know it had a similar system and let's just say people would throw matches due to getting teams that were better than them yet in the same bracket. Part of why most of the time the CT raids pop up is due to people queing up so that they won't get anything but those raids. Once people know how the scoring works there would be those who'd start performing poorly just so they can go back to an "easier" skill group. Now, I'm not saying I wouldn't mind trying it out cause I would. Just to see where I'd end up and how long it would take before those who wanted an easier time or felt like they were being judged even if not by their fellow players started to play poorly until they'd get tossed into a lower bracket.

I'm starting to wish I wrote the OP differently to be honest because a lot of people are focusing on the technical aspects of SBMM and not what it is trying to achieve. Im less interested in that personally as this was only a thought experiment anyway and technical issues can all be ironed out with good game designers.

What I was really try to ask is would the game be better if the players tended to play with others of similar level, as different expectations and skill levels tend to be at the heart of a lot of the friction I see in the community.

Personally I think it would, as a professional instructor I am not in any way convinced by the argument that impatient elite players are best suited to teach new players anything. I think they would learn better in an environment they are comfortable in, at a speed they are comfortable at. You dont teach a kid how to become a racing driver by sticking them in an F1 car, you put them in a go-kart and give them time to learn alongside their peers.

Im really not too worried about players at the elite end of the spectrum, they can handle themselves and as suggested, they can use party finder. I'm more concerned about the guy who has done 6 dungeons in their entire life and is now getting chewed out in Haukke Manor for not doing wall to wall pulls. Expecting that person to use party finder is asking a bit much especially as they probably have no clue what it is at that point.

The ARR content in this game is so important for player retention and its already handicapped with the most grindy quests, the weakest voice acting and the least engaging story of the whole game. The actual content has a lot of powerlifting to do in order to hook new players in and it really doesn't help when Billy big balls starts chewing a fledgling sprout out because they want their roulette done faster.

I've leveled all my tanks exclusively in dungeons and showing flexibility and courtesy to new players is always extremely well received. This "can't give advice" issue evaporates immediately when people genuinely believe you're there to help and are happy to be patient in my experience.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Artemiz

I'm starting to wish I wrote the OP differently to be honest because a lot of people are focusing on the technical aspects of SBMM and not what it is trying to achieve. Im less interested in that personally as this was only a thought experiment anyway and technical issues can all be ironed out with good game designers.

What I was really try to ask is would the game be better if the players tended to play with others of similar level, as different expectations and skill levels tend to be at the heart of a lot of the friction I see in the community.

Personally I think it would, as a professional instructor I am not in any way convinced by the argument that impatient elite players are best suited to teach new players anything. I think they would learn better in an environment they are comfortable in, at a speed they are comfortable at. You dont teach a kid how to become a racing driver by sticking them in an F1 car, you put them in a go-kart and give them time to learn alongside their peers.

Im really not too worried about players at the elite end of the spectrum, they can handle themselves and as suggested, they can use party finder. I'm more concerned about the guy who has done 6 dungeons in their entire life and is now getting chewed out in Haukke Manor for not doing wall to wall pulls. Expecting that person to use party finder is asking a bit much especially as they probably have no clue what it is at that point.

The ARR content in this game is so important for player retention and its already handicapped with the most grindy quests, the weakest voice acting and the least engaging story of the whole game. The actual content has a lot of powerlifting to do in order to hook new players in and it really doesn't help when Billy big balls starts chewing a fledgling sprout out because they want their roulette done faster.

I've leveled all my tanks exclusively in dungeons and showing flexibility and courtesy to new players is always extremely well received. This "can't give advice" issue evaporates immediately when people genuinely believe you're there to help and are happy to be patient in my experience.

---

It won't work because a lot of the NA/EU player base would rather play poorly just to avoid needing to actually play at a higher skill set even if they know they're able to do so. There's a huge part of the player base that live and will die by the whole why should I or anyone try if you can still clear said instance. While yes there are some who bully or pressure sprouts or returners. There are many who flame the crap out of veterans even if you do your best to give advice in the nicest mildest ways. Again there'll be people who if this was ever implemented who'd feel like their skill bracket is shaming them due to not being as skilled as the rest in their bracket. Then you have the problem of what skill group do you put a partial made party if everyone in that partial isn't of the same skill group?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SannaR

It won't work because a lot of the NA/EU player base would rather play poorly just to avoid needing to actually play at a higher skill set even if they know they're able to do so. There's a huge part of the player base that live and will die by the whole why should I or anyone try if you can still clear said instance. While yes there are some who bully or pressure sprouts or returners. There are many who flame the crap out of veterans even if you do your best to give advice in the nicest mildest ways. Again there'll be people who if this was ever implemented who'd feel like their skill bracket is shaming them due to not being as skilled as the rest in their bracket. Then you have the problem of what skill group do you put a partial made party if everyone in that partial isn't of the same skill group?

---

I'm sure that's very true but where PvE SBMM would differ from PvP SBMM is with PvP the better you get the harder your experience is. One of the criticisms is if the skill brackets are opaque, which they tend to be in casual content, then players don't feel a sense of skill progression because as they get better the groups they get put in match that. You can tell in a fps game when SBMM is strong because almost everyone has a Kills/deaths ratio close to 1.0, elite pro players might get close to 2.0 but without SBMM they would be more like 5.0+
In PvE if you refuse to improve you will be left with slow parties and at least you would know you are progressing as your dungeon runs get smoother and faster.

A mixed skill level pre-made is always an issue with SBMM systems that is true, at least in PvE you could focus more on the lower end, it takes a special kind of ass to knowingly queue for content in that situation and start kicking off. In PvP you have no choice but to weigh in favour of the higher end to avoid noob bashing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krojack

I'm always giving tips and what not to help people in dungeons and have never once been flamed. I bet the people trying to give the tips are doing in a tone that doesn't seem very pleasant. I have seen that before.

---

"Hey noob, you need to git gud!"

Vet wonders why no one takes his advice... "I was just trying to help a new player, why do I get toxic replies?"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XabyTimberwolf

"Hey noob, you need to git gud!"

Vet wonders why no one takes his advice... "I was just trying to help a new player, why do I get toxic replies?"

---

Seen this many times, in the tales from the duty finder thread I've lost count over the years of the amount of people who post screen shots of them getting negativity from "constructive criticism" and when you read it it becomes painfully obvious why it rubbed the wrong way.

As someone who has never had a problem with this kind of thing I would urge anyone who does to focus more on the constructive and less on the criticism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XabyTimberwolf

"Hey noob, you need to git gud!"

Vet wonders why no one takes his advice... "I was just trying to help a new player, why do I get toxic replies?"

---

Thing is a toxic reply to such a comment is pointless sure the comments also is pointless but we only have control over our own actions. Somene tells ya to "git gud" i would reply with "I would appreciate any tips or advice." I would ask them what feel i could improve on. In the end sure they may ignore me but at the very least i tried to be civil.

This whole fighting hostilities with more hostilities is silly imo.

This wouldn't work in SE's favor. Imagine a party of 4 bad players... Not all of them bad on purpose. They struggle with some MSQ boss and then one or more of them goes "omg i don't understand what's happening this game sucks" or something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReynTime

This wouldn't work in SE's favor. Imagine a party of 4 bad players... Not all of them bad on purpose. They struggle with some MSQ boss and then one or more of them goes "omg i don't understand what's happening this game sucks" or something.

---

I don't think this would be an issue for dungeons, they would just take longer. Trials it might though, a more relaxed SBMM for trials would maybe required or even echo for lower groups. I wouldn't have a problem with that in basically story content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReynTime

This wouldn't work in SE's favor. Imagine a party of 4 bad players... Not all of them bad on purpose. They struggle with some MSQ boss and then one or more of them goes "omg i don't understand what's happening this game sucks" or something.

---

If all else about this idea were a net positive, then I feel all that issue would warrant is to have reduced the BS that contributes to punishment rather than challenge:

• Have the option to display fight-specific pertinent (de)buffs and their brief descriptions (additionally) in a separate area, with that description already expanded (perhaps to auto-hide after an appropriate time in which to read it, starting long but customizable to a briefer time) so that controller users don't need to jump through 4 hoops just to tab over said (de)buff and read it.
• If a mechanic is so convoluted or inaccurately telegraphed as to be a problem, fix it. If likely to be a problem only for a small group of players, but nonetheless a significant issue for that group, perhaps add a secondary or even tertiary of more obvious or explicit telegraphs, or even a post-fight hint, which would appear after the nth wipe (probably the 1st or 2nd in most cases).
• Replace the release option and the run back to the boss with, once the last person has died, the party respawning just outside the boss area.
• Get rid of the braindead-yet-unintuitive QTE events.
• Continue to avoid mechanics by which one player's mistake (especially any in no way aidable or recoverable by others) can kill others among their party.
• Etc., etc...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Just don't give unsolicited advice. Kick or leave, if you feel it's necessary, I say.

---

It seems a pretty backwards environment we play in when kicking people without a word is considered less toxic than giving advice.

The OP should really try healing in the duty finder for awhile.

I've found a correlation between bad skill and high avg item level. If someone (often a tank) has a really high item level, they have a chance of being an amazing player. They also have a good chance of being the worst player on the team. They just expect the healer to carry them while they walk to the end, cause dailies are boring and they are too busy watching tv to push any buttons.

Far lesser geared players are way more likely to be thoughtful and trying. They don't have the experience and are trying to learn. "Veterans" who don't give a crap are actually the worst players possible in DF.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It seems a pretty backwards environment we play in when kicking people without a word is considered less toxic than giving advice.

---

Unfortunately that is the enviorment that is fostered by the mentality that tone and presentation trump everything else when it comes to discourse.

I do feel this is just a byproduct of both sides just being fsr too soft and or tired myself included.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by deadman1204

The OP should really try healing in the duty finder for awhile.

I've found a correlation between bad skill and high avg item level. If someone (often a tank) has a really high item level, they have a chance of being an amazing player. They also have a good chance of being the worst player on the team. They just expect the healer to carry them while they walk to the end, cause dailies are boring and they are too busy watching tv to push any buttons.

Far lesser geared players are way more likely to be thoughtful and trying. They don't have the experience and are trying to learn. "Veterans" who don't give a crap are actually the worst players possible in DF.

---

I won't claim to be an experienced healer but I did plenty of roulette content at 50 when it was the level cap. That said, I think most of us are quite used to playing with randoms by now and we all have our problems. I tank most of the time but I won't make sweeping generalisations about healers.

Either way, the whole point of this is to try and separate you from those tanks you dislike so much, ilevel doesn't really have much to do with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Artemiz

I'm starting to wish I wrote the OP differently to be honest because a lot of people are focusing on the technical aspects of SBMM and not what it is trying to achieve. Im less interested in that personally as this was only a thought experiment anyway and technical issues can all be ironed out with good game designers.

What I was really try to ask is would the game be better if the players tended to play with others of similar level, as different expectations and skill levels tend to be at the heart of a lot of the friction I see in the community.

Personally I think it would, as a professional instructor I am not in any way convinced by the argument that impatient elite players are best suited to teach new players anything. I think they would learn better in an environment they are comfortable in, at a speed they are comfortable at. You dont teach a kid how to become a racing driver by sticking them in an F1 car, you put them in a go-kart and give them time to learn alongside their peers.

Im really not too worried about players at the elite end of the spectrum, they can handle themselves and as suggested, they can use party finder. I'm more concerned about the guy who has done 6 dungeons in their entire life and is now getting chewed out in Haukke Manor for not doing wall to wall pulls. Expecting that person to use party finder is asking a bit much especially as they probably have no clue what it is at that point.

The ARR content in this game is so important for player retention and its already handicapped with the most grindy quests, the weakest voice acting and the least engaging story of the whole game. The actual content has a lot of powerlifting to do in order to hook new players in and it really doesn't help when Billy big balls starts chewing a fledgling sprout out because they want their roulette done faster.

I've leveled all my tanks exclusively in dungeons and showing flexibility and courtesy to new players is always extremely well received. This "can't give advice" issue evaporates immediately when people genuinely believe you're there to help and are happy to be patient in my experience.

---

Ok, so ignoring the elephant in the room, queue times, this idea still has many flaws, and honestly comes off as you having some problem with people who raid.

The main issue here is that for the content you are requesting to have skill based matchmaking for has no real skill requirement. The only time any dungeon has ever required a disband was if a player d/c'd and the party got tired of waiting. People can literally afk for minutes at a time during boss fights, and the run will still go smoothly.

Also I don't know how this will help give newer players better advice. If people are matched based on skill, then lower skilled newer player will be matched together. If I get matched with newer players under such a system then according to the matchmaking I am just as low of skill as them, and won't be giving them any better advice.

I think letting sprouts be confined to sprout parties would only work at times like now, when there are lots of sprouts to go around. But duty finder's primary purpose is just to get people into content faster. Cause if there's one thing that kills a new player's experience the fastest, it's having to do a dungeon and being unable to even find a group.

Maybe if it were an optional thing, with a convenient check-box. Then people could choose to be matched with a more similar party or just have a faster queue. I have a feeling that new DPS players would never be able to use the SBMM though. The queues are long enough as-is, and they're heavily supported by veterans who want the adventurer-in-need bonus.

I think just throwing everyone into the same pot actually sorta works for the community anyways. Because everyone quickly learns/accepts that parties are variable. If you give people the power to choose their teammates (and make it more convenient than PF), then many of them will loathe the idea of leaving their bubble and playing with different kinds of players. And taking that first step out of sprouthood and into end-game content might be extra tough. If I were still a sprout, I'd prefer to have veterans helping so I wouldn't get stuck on anything, and I'd have a good example to learn from. Maybe that's a little pretentious though...

TL;DR: Convenience and stable queues are more important than comfort. And SBMM could lead to an echo chamber effect and harsher learning curve. So I'm still skeptical. The devs would have to put extra work into the surrounding systems to deal with those issues. It's possible though.

Edit: To be clear, I admit that it would be nice for sprouts to have the option for a more chill experience. Being able to spend more time exploring a dungeon for the first time, not feeling rushed, getting to see more boss mechanics before it's over, etc. It's just tough to create a system that allows for that, while also promoting personal/community growth AND being convenient enough that it doesn't feel like a waste of time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TroySoFab

Ok, so ignoring the elephant in the room, queue times, this idea still has many flaws, and honestly comes off as you having some problem with people who raid.

The main issue here is that for the content you are requesting to have skill based matchmaking for has no real skill requirement. The only time any dungeon has ever required a disband was if a player d/c'd and the party got tired of waiting. People can literally afk for minutes at a time during boss fights, and the run will still go smoothly.

Also I don't know how this will help give newer players better advice. If people are matched based on skill, then lower skilled newer player will be matched together. If I get matched with newer players under such a system then according to the matchmaking I am just as low of skill as them, and won't be giving them any better advice.

---

This is getting a bit tiresome now, earlier in the thread it was being insinuated that I was elitist and didn't want to play with low skilled players, now your accusing me of the opposite. Neither is true. Its a very simple thought experiment, would players be happier if they got paired with others of a similar skill level? That's it.

You also seem to be vastly overstating how effective a SBMM system can be to stawman the argument. Its not only possible, but more effective to learn from your peer group than getting carried.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leonerdo

I think letting sprouts be confined to sprout parties would only work at times like now, when there are lots of sprouts to go around. But duty finder's primary purpose is just to get people into content faster. Cause if there's one thing that kills a new player's experience the fastest, it's having to do a dungeon and being unable to even find a group.

Maybe if it were an optional thing, with a convenient check-box. Then people could choose to be matched with a more similar party or just have a faster queue. I have a feeling that new DPS players would never be able to use the SBMM though. The queues are long enough as-is, and they're heavily supported by veterans who want the adventurer-in-need bonus.

I think just throwing everyone into the same pot actually sorta works for the community anyways. Because everyone quickly learns/accepts that parties are variable. If you give people the power to choose their teammates (and make it more convenient than PF), then many of them will loathe the idea of leaving their bubble and playing with different kinds of players. And taking that first step out of sprouthood and into end-game content might be extra tough. If I were still a sprout, I'd prefer to have veterans helping so I wouldn't get stuck on anything, and I'd have a good example to learn from. Maybe that's a little pretentious though...

TL;DR: Convenience and stable queues are more important than comfort. And SBMM could lead to an echo chamber effect and harsher learning curve. So I'm still skeptical. The devs would have to put extra work into the surrounding systems to deal with those issues. It's possible though.

Edit: To be clear, I admit that it would be nice for sprouts to have the option for a more chill experience. Being able to spend more time exploring a dungeon for the first time, not feeling rushed, getting to see more boss mechanics before it's over, etc. It's just tough to create a system that allows for that, while also promoting personal/community growth AND being convenient enough that it doesn't feel like a waste of time.

---

This is a great post, thank you for focusing on the core of the debate and providing a well thought out and eloquent opposition to it. I won't reply to any points you've made as I've already made my position clear and I can tell you've read them and thought about them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Artemiz

Its a very simple thought experiment, would players be happier if they got paired with others of a similar skill level? That's it.

---

But what happens with someone who would ding high level on whatever parameters the game would use but doesn't want to be paired with that group? Or someone still learning who would ding low but wants to be with more experienced players? There doesn't seem to be room in your equation for higher skilled players who want the more chill experience. Or lower skilled players who want a more structured experience because they value the instruction and input.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Artemiz

I had a thought, inspired by the increased proliferation of SBMM systems in other games. They have been controversial, especially in PvP games but I was wondering what the community thought for DF content in this game.

By definition most players are average so would see little change, it would mostly effect either low skilled or high skilled players, essentially keeping them apart in DF content as being matched together seems to be a frustration for both groups.

Cons:
Queue times could be increased slightly for players on the extreme edges of the skill spectrum, particularly high skill players. This would be mitigated by faster, smoother runs though.
Having to carry would be thing of the past for high skilled players.
Getting carried would be a thing of the past for low skilled players

Pros: Lower skilled players would feel less pressure to speed run at 100 miles per hour or perform to the high standards of others.
A reduction in friction and frustration in content.
New players might get a minute to smell the roses in a new dungeon instead of trying to keep up with an experienced and skilled group.

Disclaimer: I know this is a thought experiment that won't happen but thought it might be a good discussion during a content dip.

How skill would be determined is obviously open for debate.

Personally, I wouldn't be against it and think it could make the game more enjoyable for players at either extreme while not really effecting the majority by all that much. Im not desperate for it though as I don't want or expect to get carried and don't sweat about it if I'm the one carrying as long as people are at least trying.

---

This game does not promote knowing your class (being skillful).

What type of algorithm could even understand people just being people? Sometimes a person's hand hurts, some people get older.

Sometimes we wake up early and decide to queue in a dungeon run and our brains are just not functioning at normal compacitiy.

How does someone quantify human error?

Why is this a discussion?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

But what happens with someone who would ding high level on whatever parameters the game would use but doesn't want to be paired with that group? Or someone still learning who would ding low but wants to be with more experienced players? There doesn't seem to be room in your equation for higher skilled players who want the more chill experience. Or lower skilled players who want a more structured experience because they value the instruction and input.

---

This is at the heart of the discussion really, keep as it is where you get what you get but with the problems we have now, or implement SBMM for a more consistent experience that could reduce conflict and tension. Party finder and pre-made groups are still there though, something more experienced players are far more likely to know about and use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

What type of algorithm could even understand people just being people? Sometimes a person's hand hurts, some people get older.

Sometimes we wake up early and decide to queue in a dungeon run and our brains are just not functioning at normal compacitiy.

How does someone quantify human error?

Why is this a discussion?

---

SBMM has been around for decades, its mandatory for ranked PvP and used in both casual PvP and PvE by developers who think it will enhance the experience, especially for new players.

Some sprouts would enjoy playing dungeons with other new players who will see it for the first time. Others just want to get it done.


It is really hard thing to do to be honest. For example, if I group up and queue with someone who is lesser skill. Does the match making avg the skill up from the group?


but the content is so easy that I don't think that it is require myself for skilled players. And the few sprouts it would make happy. Is it worth development time for?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wavaryen

It is really hard thing to do to be honest. For example, if I group up and queue with someone who is lesser skill. Does the match making avg the skill up from the group?


but the content is so easy that I don't think that it is require myself for skilled players. And the few sprouts it would make happy. Is it worth development time for?

---

That would obviously be up for debate but I would personally lean towards the algorithm leaning more towards the lower skilled player.

Almost certainly not worth the development time, thats why I suggested its just a debate as it wouldn't actually happen. I do think it would help a lot with player retention though and the game is booming right now, I havent seen this many sprouts for a long time

How about this for a compromise...

Much like how trials can be taken on minilvl, unsync, etc maybe have a toggle "first timers preferred" for those who have already cleared. If you toggle that, you'll be out into a party with three sprouts. Basically only one vet allowed and they are brought in by choice, perhaps for extra gil or achievements. Thoughts?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge

How about this for a compromise...

Much like how trials can be taken on minilvl, unsync, etc maybe have a toggle "first timers preferred" for those who have already cleared. If you toggle that, you'll be out into a party with three sprouts. Basically only one vet allowed and they are brought in by choice, perhaps for extra gil or achievements. Thoughts?

---

Sounds a bit like how we can toggle joining duties in progress or not. Sounds like a good idea to be honest, I wouldn't have a problem with it as you wouldn't have to tick it if you didn't want to and the veteran player would be much less likely to throw their weight around if its 1 vs 3

I was curious about what SBMM even meant, so I googled, and....

https://i.imgur.com/ysZgVqv.png

Yeah, after reading that, I believe that's all the context I needed regarding the landscape of this discussion.

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but this type of system sounds and reads like it's designed for competitive wargames and eSport-driven fps games.

This game has been doing just fine for so long, why would the game need this this all of a sudden now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

I was curious about what SBMM even meant, so I googled, and....

https://i.imgur.com/ysZgVqv.png

Yeah, after reading that, I believe that's all the context I needed regarding the landscape of this discussion.

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but this type of system sounds and reads like it's designed for competitive wargames and eSport-driven fps games.

This game has been doing just fine for so long, why would the game need this this all of a sudden now?

---

I tried to use this as the reason why it wouldn't work outside of JP. That enough of the NA/EU crowd would try and cheese it so they wouldn't feel judged. Just because someone could play at a C+ (if we were to give a skill level example) doesn't mean they'd want to deal with those who might be closer to the B- while still be in the C+ range. And therefore purposely perform worse just so they can relax. Or whatever you want to use for such behavior. While also stating that we already see this when it comes to alliance raids where people purposely lower their ilv so they only get the CT raids. Heck I'm still fairly sure we saw/still see it in the Feast. So, even though I'd be curious enough to see where such a system would put me I still don't think it would work as well as the OP thinks or hopes for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

I was curious about what SBMM even meant, so I googled, and....

https://i.imgur.com/ysZgVqv.png

Yeah, after reading that, I believe that's all the context I needed regarding the landscape of this discussion.

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but this type of system sounds and reads like it's designed for competitive wargames and eSport-driven fps games.

This game has been doing just fine for so long, why would the game need this this all of a sudden now?

---

To be fair I have made sure to spell it out a few times, including the title in case people don't know what SBMM means.

Its not limited to FPS games, its essential to FPS games or new players get absolutely wrecked and have a very poor experience. It is and can be used in any game that has a match making system, like the duty finder. It even gets used in games based at kids (dont remember which titles) because research shows they engage more and have more fun among more relatable peers.

I'm arguing thats not limited to children but a profound human behaviour, so we could reduce friction in group content by incorporating some mechanisms into the match making system we already have and use, to put at least a bit of weight towards matching skill levels.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but this type of system sounds and reads like it's designed for competitive wargames and eSport-driven fps games.?

---

You're going to frame your whole understanding of a concept based on which game popped up first upon its mention?

Nevermind that this is being requested for PvE, something almost fundamentally different from competitive PvP?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Artemiz

Sounds a bit like how we can toggle joining duties in progress or not. Sounds like a good idea to be honest, I wouldn't have a problem with it as you wouldn't have to tick it if you didn't want to and the veteran player would be much less likely to throw their weight around if its 1 vs 3

---

I still worry about the community implications of "Prefer matches with similar players. (See the secondary "Expected Wait Time value.)" even if it somehow could be pulled off, but insofar as options go (even ones like this)... I'd generally rather have them than not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I still worry about the community implications of "Prefer matches with similar players. (See the secondary "Expected Wait Time value.)" even if it somehow could be pulled off, but insofar as options go (even ones like this)... I'd generally rather have them than not.

---

I would say extended queue times are a very valid concern. What I would argue in mitigation is that SBMM system are easily tuned, right now we could have it reasonably strong as we have so many players active at all player levels so it wouldn't be too difficult to find, for example, plenty of people queuing for ARR dungeons who have yet to clear 2.0. MMO's are traditionally top heavy though so the reverse will almost always be true (lots of players doing expert roulette who have cleared 5.x) At some point there will certainly be less newer players so tuning SBMM down to reduce queue times isn't all that difficult, I'm sure SE have plenty of data regarding average queue times so they would know how the game is doing.

Again, what the system uses to categorize skill levels is open to debate but I just used MSQ progression as it was the easiest way to make my point. Tuning does seem to be reasonably easy though as the categories used don't have to change, just the importance match making gives to them.