Exclusivity and the potential downfall of the game.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

For example there's some 1.0 stuff which was great for me to have for the 10+ years, sure. But at this point who else is running around in my Asuran Gauntlets? Why are we still hording this item for the 4 people total still playing the game? I exclusively had these for 10 years. I'm good. At some point it doesn't make sense.

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The asuran things maybeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.... but i'd say theyre somewhat different because thats not something tied to the game or anything its. just like oh hey you preoredered ff13.. kinda likehow some minions are connected to buying the soundtrackor something years ago... and i personally consider stuff like that to be different to actual earnt game rewards and such.. so releasing the asuran guards again yeah totally fine with that cos its just a preorder thing not actually a gameplay thing... but stuff like the white ravens or even the legacy chocobo actually represent something in the game. so thats where they need to be more carefuli think. but again even if they just made the whiteravens they dished out freely a replica version that would have made all the difference and prevented a lot of the uproar. and there would likely be insane levels of backlash if they ever handed out legacy chocobos for the same reason. because they represent something in the actual game.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

This is not an entirely fair assessment because the pool of players actually doing that content will get decidedly smaller. Case in point, before Cross World PF existed, it was near impossible to farm EX primals once the new one came out on several servers. No one wanted to do them. The same thing would happen with forcing a level sync.

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Honestly thats something thats quite tricky to make a totally fair assessment on.

Part of the reason why it became difficult to farm old Ex primals was down the fact that players know they can literally just unsync it and run it 10 times easier and 10 times faster next expansion and given that the other incentive (weapons) on old ex primals were already obselete and outdated thus unwanted, theres no reason not to wait till the expansion and just rofl stomp it.

Another reason reason why parties for old ex primals don't fill today is because so many people have already unsynced and steam rolled there way through them.
if you took a thousand players you might find 900 of them have mountx.. but if unsynced was never implemented that number might only be 300. whcih then means if you put up a party finder for mountx today. 700 people would potentially need the mount and be interested in joining instead of just 100. which would then potentially mean that even today parties for mountx would still fill up.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

But they do... My main job's relic weapon is BiS. I didn't look at the other jobs but I wouldn't be surprised if it's the case for more than mine.

People who clear the hardest content get the weapons that hurt the most, that's how it should be.

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They probably meant during the time of their release. Relic weapons never outlevel raid weapons when the raid is released.
Relics would be BiS at the end of expansion when the raid is not so relevant anymore.

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Originally Posted by Fland

They probably meant during the time of their release. Relic weapons never outlevel raid weapons when the raid is released.
Relics would be BiS at the end of expansion when the raid is not so relevant anymore.

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I'm pretty sure there have been times (in this expac even) when an incomplete relic was BiS for some of the healers.
I wanna say AST or SCH had this happen to them recently, but I don't quite recall.

Nyet, system is fine. If you clear before echo/ilvl nerf you did good and can be proud.

Sounds like you want Ultimate. SE has said that will never be able to be unsynced.

They've gradually made Savage easier for the very simple fact that people weren't doing it and they wanted more people to do the content they created. You start to see a diminishing return on development labor if you have multiple pieces of content that cater to only the hardcore mindset. From what Yoshi-P has described, there is a LOT of effort that goes into Ultimates. And it seems they get a good return on the development time there. But you can't expect the entire game is going to be like that. Then it becomes a niche game and either stubbornly holds on like EverQuest or it dies like WildStar.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Have you done the Bozja and Zadnor duels yet?

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I have! While they're in the same spirit, they're not exactly encounters tuned to your specific job/role. Definitely not the same in having multi-phases to learn and work through.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

XIVs problem is its own hypocrisy.
When it allows things like PVP gear or even ultimate loot to maintain a sense of Prestige / rarity because the developers say "they don't want the items to lose their value or significance"
but then trashes the value of everything else because the developers say "it's just digital pixels they have no value or significance"
Same devs but 2 totally contradictory statements. Should be one or the other not both. That's hypocrisy.

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Yoshida recently stated in an interview that Savage is now intended to have broader appeal (likely coinciding with developing Ultimate as additional content). So it's less to do with the value of the rewards by themselves, but more to do with the associated contents since PVP seasons and Ultimate are not necessarily intended to have broader appeal. You literally have limited chance to be considered for those rewards in PVP seasons.

Different approaches to different reward systems for different contents is not hypocrisy.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Yoshida recently stated in an interview that Savage is now intended to have broader appeal (likely coinciding with developing Ultimate as additional content). So it's less to do with the value of the rewards by themselves, but more to do with the associated contents since PVP seasons and Ultimate are not necessarily intended to have broader appeal. You literally have limited chance to be considered for those rewards in PVP seasons.

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The issue there is that by trying to broaden the appeal they ultimately make things worse.. its a pretty common opinion that virtually every raid tier is more boring then the last. Same with other content like how many perceive the nicer raids as some of the worst alliance raids ever...

Then look at healers. Big changes made in 5.0 to make them simpler and more appealing to more players.... how did that work out..

But ultimately the way they treat rewardsnis why so many people just get lazy and think screw it just unsync it later. Which ultimately only serves to make the content LESS appealing to more players and not more appealing.

Exclusivity for the sake of it is dumb. Look you made this handful of people feel superior and good but there is an ocean of people over there feeling bad because of it. Stupid. If you clear savage when it is still relevant, everyone who sees you with that stuff during that time period knows you got through the content at its most difficult. Casual players are the majority of players, so yes SE should let them be able to access content after some time.

I still hate the certain things are unobtainable from previous events or 1.0, though for 1.0 I understand the why of it. Still want that Legacy choco though...

I don't think the devs have ever advertised anything as being exclusive- a google search for "FFXIV Exclusive Item" pulls up no actual FFXIV items except on specifically named "Exclusive Eastern Journey Attire" (exclusive being part of the item's actual name), or links about how X gear or mount is exclusive to a particular job (Gunbreaker mount specifically).

This simply is not a promise the devs have made.

Devs are on record that there is a very narrow window of most "prestige" items earn-able in game. That is to say, if you busted butt getting Excalibur in 2.0, congrats, you did it! Enjoy your glamour gloating...but it is purposefully going to be easier via echo/unsyncing as it gets older.

With very rare exception are items made unobtainable to anyone who wants them.

...so I'm not sure how the OP's argument of a promised Item Exclusivity is anything beyond inside their own head. No offense! Just curious what made you think items were supposed to be exclusive?

The way savage is handled in the game is fine. In FFXIV savage is really the top end of the gear grind at each patch tier before the next one that gives a small head start for a huge dump in time and effort.

Ultimate is the real "challenger" achievement system they put in that mirrors the old feel of World of Warcraft style extreme runs. Technically, the one vs one version is found in Bazja Southern Front with the duels, though right now you can cheese them using a really insane percentage stacking thing with the lost actions.

Heck, the one thing I'm surprised by is the lack of retro running old savage content for glamour items. The WHM staff from E8S is incredibly unique, and I'm thinking people will want to go for the sleeker gothic looking armor from E12s later on.

The ugly in the game is really in the experimental content like Bazja, where it is supposed to be grindy content for less competitive players, but almost always ends up having issues such as with Pagos back in Eureka days being way too tough to break through. Bazja alone went through so many patches to fix it over the lifespan of the content and it still has issues that are getting introduced as they add "non-essential" rewards like the field record achievement mount.

The Relic is just a glamour, making it stronger than other weapons after all the content is finished is just a bonus, since theres not much use to it on the end of expansion.
Actually!! in DR Savage and Ultimates it can give you some advantage but if u're casual player you may not even touch this content so it doesnt matter if its easy or hard do get.

and lol what is this title "potential downfall of the game" Relics has aways been this way

Seems like there's plenty of exclusive content like savages/ultimates, things that take long grinds in places like Eureka/HoH, and even pvp mounts.

But there's also plenty of non exclusive content- having a balance is a good thing. Feeling like you can get nothing if you don't go hardcore might work for WoW and some older MMOs where chest thumping is the purpose of the game- but just look at how angry people are on the WoW forums all the time, and it's almost always about how long it takes to do things and how much time you have to sink into it, and how unrewarding all but the pinnacle of the game is.

imo, what would be better for FFXIV than more exclusive items- let's say in pvp- would be more care given to pvp modes, maybe something to teach players about pvp, more content, etc... You can try to bribe people into doing pvp with rewards, and to a degree that works (I imagine people did it more for the GARO rewards for example), but they won't stay unless they have fun doing it. On the other hand- what would adding say, another mount to top players do? Nothing really- that's not going to encourage the average player to do it because it's unobtainable.

And when players don't do the content, why make it? And that's how you end up with abandoned segments of a game.

Still waiting on pvp rewards to be rereleased behind an accessible grind. But for some reason those are held up higher than savage, and ultimate for matter since one could in theory buy those wins as long as the game runs whereas pvp rank rewards are gone forever.

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

Seems like there's plenty of exclusive content like savages/ultimates,

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Exclusive is the wrong word.

Ultimates aren't exclusive. Absolutely anyone can go and do an ultimate fight. It's not restricted its not limited. The entire playerbase has access to it and can do it.

Over on the JP side players actually pug ultimates.. no statics no ridiculous time commitments, just pug and go whenever they feel like. The content is designed to be accessible to everyone. It's not exclusive.

Players don't do it because they choose not to for whatever reason. But its not exclusive content that only a select few can do. Everyone can if they so choose.

An example of exclusive would be the legacy chocobo or the gooboe where literally noone can get them anymore...

But if you want ultimate gear you absolutely can get it. Thus it's not exclusive.

Same goes with all content. If unsynced was never implemented and you had to go do first extreme at level 50 synced that wouldn't make ifrits pony an exclusive item. Because once again a ayer who wanted it could still obtain it today.

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

Some people do this just to bash others with their egos.

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Idk... that's rather dumb.

If someone is looking for an excuse/reason to bash others with their egos they don't even have to raid. To me, it seems that they are doing that just to hide and conceal the many insecurities already present. It can't be any other way.

Where is the many deaths of ffxiv thread when we need it.

Exclusivity is nothing but frustration.

There are plenty of nice titles from 1.0 that is no longer obtainable like "Inquisitor", which was tied to something as riveting and difficult as a... fate.

Exclusivity should be done through challenging content instead of limited time. Currently 2 of the biggest exclusive things Saint of the Firmament and Feast top 100 only ask/asked "Do you have time to play during this certain time period" and if your answer to that is no then you don't even have to think about trying.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

The issue there is that by trying to broaden the appeal they ultimately make things worse.. its a pretty common opinion that virtually every raid tier is more boring then the last. Same with other content like how many perceive the nicer raids as some of the worst alliance raids ever...

Then look at healers. Big changes made in 5.0 to make them simpler and more appealing to more players.... how did that work out..

But ultimately the way they treat rewardsnis why so many people just get lazy and think screw it just unsync it later. Which ultimately only serves to make the content LESS appealing to more players and not more appealing.

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I have no opinion either way on this, but I'm pretty sure SE would have the numbers of how many people try to clear the raid each tier. Then again, you also need to clear it to do Ultimate. So I'm guessing it works either way for them, whether it be the people who want Savage to be easier or the people who want to do Ultimate. As for the people who don't want to do Ultimate, but also don't want Savage to be easier, I guess they're trapped since there is no other difficulty, unless they move on to another game.

All we know is that Yoshida seems happy with the current difficulty of Savage and how it's been doing, at least since Creator onward.

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Originally Posted by Nanne

Exclusivity should be done through challenging content instead of limited time. Currently 2 of the biggest exclusive things Saint of the Firmament and Feast top 100 only ask/asked "Do you have time to play during this certain time period" and if your answer to that is no then you don't even have to think about trying.

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If everyone can access that challenging content anytime then it's not really exclusive.
Putting something behind challenging content with a pre-requisite is more of a gating.

Seeing an exclusive memento in your inventory can be a powerful way to welcome you back to the game. I understand it might make some people jealous, but I don’t feel the right solution is to just make everything obtainable again. I’d rather see new exclusives be continuously added, so players can begin collecting some mementos of their own.

Everyone will get a taste of this when Endwalker releases and belts become collector’s items.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Seeing an exclusive memento in your inventory can be a powerful way to welcome you back to the game. I understand it might make some people jealous, but I don’t feel the right solution is to just make everything obtainable again. I’d rather see new exclusives be continuously added, so players can begin collecting some mementos of their own.

Everyone will get a taste of this when Endwalker releases and belts become collector’s items.

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For me it's more disappointing to see an unobtainable item in my inventory, because there wasn't any actual need for it to be unobtainable. It's a digital item that can be mass-produced at the flip of a switch, and yet no more players are allowed to get it because of reasons.

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Originally Posted by linayar

I have no opinion either way on this, but I'm pretty sure SE would have the numbers of how many people try to clear the raid each tier. Then again, you also need to clear it to do Ultimate. So I'm guessing it works either way for them, whether it be the people who want Savage to be easier or the people who want to do Ultimate. As for the people who don't want to do Ultimate, but also don't want Savage to be easier, I guess they're trapped since there is no other difficulty, unless they move on to another game.

All we know is that Yoshida seems happy with the current difficulty of Savage and how it's been doing, at least since Creator onward.

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I dont dispute that that but participation doesn't mean it's fun or good.

the nier raids are often cited as the most boring ones ever but people still do them.
hte same with eden. and even the basic expert dungeons have become blander and blander with each one.

and as the infamous slide from beta says. FUN comes first if it isnt fun your doing it wrong.. and when newer content is widely regarded as more boring than older content its obviously considered less fun.. which menas theyre doing it wrong.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I think people should seek to obtain something in a video game because they desire it rather than because they think it is 'exclusive'. That way when it inevitably becomes easier to obtain they won't be bothered because other people get to enjoy whatever it is as well.

The only form of exclusivity I really support in a video game is the sort with a compromise in the form of time gating. So there's maybe a period where people get to enjoy it 'exclusively' and then later on it's made available to everybody who desires it. Sometimes that still requires effort, sometimes it's a freebie. Though it generally works out in my opinion when such an approach is taken.

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^ this is the best format of exclusivity, and imo should be the only format with very rare and very explicit situations (like say ultimate, 0.01% of game the total content type concept), at least for a theme park / casuals are not dissuaded from joining type mmo. Of course one may enjoy and find the other exclusivity types enjoyable but I don't think they have any great benefit or business being in the type of game that is considered open arms come on in the pool is warm game that FFXIV is lol.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I dont dispute that that but participation doesn't mean it's fun or good.

the nier raids are often cited as the most boring ones ever but people still do them.
hte same with eden. and even the basic expert dungeons have become blander and blander with each one.

and as the infamous slide from beta says. FUN comes first if it isnt fun your doing it wrong.. and when newer content is widely regarded as more boring than older content its obviously considered less fun.. which menas theyre doing it wrong.

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Well, those are optional contents with rewards that you can get later or passively as you do the roulette in the future or unsynced. So if people are bored, but continue to run them, it sends mixed signals.

Either way, I don't know what kind of feedback they've been getting or what they'll do in the future, but I guess we'll see.

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Originally Posted by Nanne

Exclusivity should be done through challenging content instead of limited time. Currently 2 of the biggest exclusive things Saint of the Firmament and Feast top 100 only ask/asked "Do you have time to play during this certain time period" and if your answer to that is no then you don't even have to think about trying.

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Unreal trials are in a way exclusive or limited as well. Now you can't do the level 80 Shiva or Titan again, they were limited time only. The rewards from unreal trials don't change and are still obtainable though.

I know my opinion wont really have a lot of weight since i'm new to the game but back in world of warcraft it has a lot of limited time rewards / exclusivity. All it did was make people who didn't have it feel bad about not having it and those who had it felt better than those that didn't. Other than making yourself feel better or superior over others i never got why time limited things was such a focus at least in WoW.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Seeing an exclusive memento in your inventory can be a powerful way to welcome you back to the game. I understand it might make some people jealous, but I don’t feel the right solution is to just make everything obtainable again. I’d rather see new exclusives be continuously added, so players can begin collecting some mementos of their own.

Everyone will get a taste of this when Endwalker releases and belts become collector’s items.

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I disagree. My interest in these "momentos" instantly dies the moment I find out they're no longer obtainable. And I'm equally not interested hearing about that's players own experience since I can't enjoy it for myself. Meanwhile, I'm always happy to explain to aspiring Ultimate raiders how the fights work, how long they are, what to expect because I genuinely like seeing them excited to eventually obtain the weapons and title I have.

As for those belts. I'll trash them like the Elemental Materia before.

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Originally Posted by ACE135

Unreal trials are in a way exclusive or limited as well. Now you can't do the level 80 Shiva or Titan again, they were limited time only. The rewards from unreal trials don't change and are still obtainable though.

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If i recall the unreal trials will cycle. So while you cant do shiva unreal now. it will come back at some point..

Whining click bait.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

If i recall the unreal trials will cycle. So while you cant do shiva unreal now. it will come back at some point..

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No. They're one and done. Shiva and Titan won't be coming back for whatever reason. Yoshida already said after Leviathan, they're thinking of doing Sephirot. So they're likely going to cycle through the HW primals next.

It's the rewards that don't change. You can still get the mount they released when Shiva came out. My guess is at some point, they'll drop the token prices of the old stuff so they're easier to get.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Seeing an exclusive memento in your inventory can be a powerful way to welcome you back to the game. I understand it might make some people jealous, but I don’t feel the right solution is to just make everything obtainable again. I’d rather see new exclusives be continuously added, so players can begin collecting some mementos of their own.

Everyone will get a taste of this when Endwalker releases and belts become collector’s items.

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When I logged into WoW last year, I had a little look through my feats of strength, and exclusive rewards and I felt, nothing really. Not saying this is what its like for everyone, but your millage will definitely vary. And while I was getting back into WoW at the time I ended up looking at mage tower rewards, and seeing them locked away forever behind the time legion was current.

Now I don't know for sure what would have happened, but I likely would have been a lot more hooked into WoW for a lot longer had the content been treated like FF treats a lot of its content.
I would have had more goals, more things to aim for, more stuff I could do at my own pace on my own time. But instead it's just gone forever and I gotta slog through current content and hope it has rewards I actually want, which wasn't a lot in BfA.

I'd argue one of the reasons FF is gaining so much popularity over WoW is the fact that it doesn't have a real intense stance on exclusivity and doesn't constantly milk FOMO. FF respects your time and will always be around when when you're ready to go.

I think it's more about proof. The road to the clear is the most important sure but having something different to remind that you made the effort is nice as well. The reward doesn't have to go far, no one complains about ultimate weapons lol and i'm sure some of thoose raid got easier with time (but at least it's not newer ppl just going in braindead just for the loot).

I understand the frustration tbh but hey don't say no to ppl who don't want to try and their defenders, they don't want you to get more unless you go to ultimate (witch is quite extreme imo). They'll say everything will become worse without trying to find an option.

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Originally Posted by Bellsong

When I logged into WoW last year, I had a little look through my feats of strength, and exclusive rewards and I felt, nothing really. Not saying this is what its like for everyone, but your millage will definitely vary. And while I was getting back into WoW at the time I ended up looking at mage tower rewards, and seeing them locked away forever behind the time legion was current.

Now I don't know for sure what would have happened, but I likely would have been a lot more hooked into WoW for a lot longer had the content been treated like FF treats a lot of its content.
I would have had more goals, more things to aim for, more stuff I could do at my own pace on my own time. But instead it's just gone forever and I gotta slog through current content and hope it has rewards I actually want, which wasn't a lot in BfA.

I'd argue one of the reasons FF is gaining so much popularity over WoW is the fact that it doesn't have a real intense stance on exclusivity and doesn't constantly milk FOMO. FF respects your time and will always be around when when you're ready to go.

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Oh don’t get me wrong, I do believe exclusive content needs to be fairly rare. I don’t like the thought of throwing expansions into the trash every two years.

That said, I’m seeing some trying to argue for legacy marks, preorder bonuses, legacy titles, and the like to become available after Square has already said there’s no way for them to be obtainable later.

I’d rather err on the side of Square keeping its word than Square going back on its word. Some may not care about things like the legacy mark or titles, but they represent promises made and promises that currently remain kept by the development team. Maintaining those promises are more valuable than opening access to a limited glamour.