Zodiark: Good or evil? thoughts

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Um, you realize that Hydaelyn herself caused genocide with the sundering correct? The lives lost due to age,war and illness, aka things that didn’t exist in the ancient world that were born due to the sundering? The devs themselves state there is no good or bad lmao. Idk how you keep trying to refute that.

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And you completely fail to realize that it was sundering or the end of the world. Or maybe you're intentionally being disingenuous by ignoring it.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

And you completely fail to realize that it was sundering or the end of the world. Or maybe you're intentionally being disingenuous by ignoring it.

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Except you’re literally pulling that out of nowhere. There’s no proof Zodiark wasn’t the solution. You’re basing it off of a very bias perspective and someone with very little knowledge on the overall scheme of creation. Look lets just agree to disagree. I'm invested in discussing the story rather than headcanon-y moral hang-ups

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Originally Posted by Lauront

You are making assumptions about tempering when we don’t know the full extent of how it works yet. Even Ardbert himself muses over whether he may have been tempered. Frankly, it is probably a red herring, as I don’t think tempering matters as much as some people think when it comes to motivation (depending on the Primal), but there is very little to suggest she couldn’t temper us in some form if she wanted to. Just claims that because it doesn’t match what happens to the followers of X primal under tempering, it can’t be the case. Not all too convincing, especially after 5.4 and 5.5.



While it is true that they didn’t like hoarding ideas, they also ensured that there was a bureaucratic approval process for these, and dangerous concepts were not allowed to go in general circulation. The text supporting that is here:

https://i.imgur.com/uL4XiuL.png

https://i.imgur.com/hdl6KCB.png

https://i.imgur.com/GuuKeQi.png

I think it is safe to say that Theodric is on solid grounds to think such a concept, being researched in Akadaemia Anyder in the Words of Lahabrea and then potentially stored in Anamnesis Anyder (under the Bureau of the Architect’s oversight) would not be something that is common knowledge, particularly given its complexity and aetheric requirements. Supported by the below:



To further muddy the waters, as Emet-Selch himself noted, enervation was a concept they had never seen before – see here:





We don’t know the specifics of what aspect of the summoning Azem opposed. Just that they opposed it. The shift in the intended heart from Loghrif to Elidibus (a little brother figure in the Convocation and close to Azem) may well have been a catalyst. To remind you of the state of the world before they pressed forward:

https://i.imgur.com/uPg5xZT.png

The world was dying and the extent of this is shown in the Amaurot instance. Said “abomination” delivered a restoration of the world, which even Venat’s group does not deny, even though they think that the order could not endure.
As an aside – why is it alright for another “abomination” to come out of the blue and shatter the world and all inside it, degrading their souls? I don’t have an answer as yet as to why they did it. I am sure there’s reasons as to why they thought it had to happen, and that they possibly didn’t understand how the power of enervation functioned in practice, but I will note the narrative I always see from certain quarters is quick to cast Zodiark as some “abomination” but never his counterpart. She is magically exempt from all the laws governing other primals, even sophisticated ones like Zodiark. Though I prefer to take an open-minded approach, in the sense that the writers can compose the story in any manner they please and we can but guess at where they’re going with it, I do find this rather amusing.

Currently we have a gap in understanding as to why her faction thought Zodiark was not a permanent solution, but Hythlodaeus mentions that her summoners were driven from a belief that the new life (only referred to as “freshly minted souls” in Ere our Curtain falls; FR version doesn't clarify it much – we don’t know much else about this “new life”) should inherit the world. Could it be because this new life lacked the same facility for creation magicks? A belief that the ancients had reached a stagnation point? A fear that power as great as Zodiark’s could result in trouble down the line? Something else? As it stands, the things they do not mention are the cause of the Final Days (elusive to all) or tempering. As a reminder of something, the sequence of events seems to be thus:

1. There is general disagreement amongst the populace about how to proceed in regards to restoration of the sacrificed ancients. Maybe because of their maturation cycles, given that they were virtually immortal, maybe because the new souls differed materially – e.g. less/not capable of using Creation magicks. No firm proof either way.
2. This also split the Convocation – see here from the French version:


English for comparison:

https://i.imgur.com/QGxd92R.png

This self-same person is who was at Zodiark’s foundation, and became Zodiark’s heart – a Primal imbued with the desire of salvation.

3. Elidibus emerges out of Zodiark. Sentiments and rationale reproduced below:

https://i.imgur.com/NovxDIt.png

4. By the time Venat’s group summon him, they say very few support their side. We don’t know why. This is a change in the situation. I suspect what happened is Elidibus’s emergence from Zodiark served as a proof of concept for what many ancients had wanted to be done. The Convocation then felt it had a sufficient basis to enact this as its decision.

https://i.imgur.com/R5RmASI.png

https://i.imgur.com/AVPpBxc.png

5. Azem did not respond to the repeated overtures of Venat’s group. We do not know why, but cannot rule out the possibility that they too did not consider her solution a particularly good one.

So based on this, we can conclude it was not just the Convocation pushing for this plan.

Although, as I said, the writers can do what they wish, I’d find it awfully strange if at this point they still try reduce Zodiark to some comic book baddy, or some tyrant who hungered for aether. Especially when we don’t know how they were powered (although here is a suggestion.) Perhaps something afflicted him, but even so I find the reaction of sundering the entire world disproportionate – but granted, possibly not intended. In my estimation, neither party in the conflict was wholly right, and they were both entrenched in their position, and yet neither Primal is evil nor unconditionally bad. I am hoping that, with Fandaniel's advent and potential backstory, that we will learn of a third party instigating the whole affair for its own benefit.

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An excellent post and a well sourced one at that. I'm definitely bookmarking it for future reference! ;)

honestly it seems to me that they was meddling with powers beyond their understanding and possibly went to far and broke something or it could be that the light and dark has always existed and Zodiark masterminded his own summoning

you could argue that by the time the crystal mother was about to be summoned they had very little supporters because everyone else was tempered by zodiark

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Except you’re literally pulling that out of nowhere. There’s no proof Zodiark wasn’t the solution. You’re basing it off of a very bias perspective and someone with very little knowledge on the overall scheme of creation. Look lets just agree to disagree. I'm invested in discussing the story rather than headcanon-y moral hang-ups

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No, I'm basing it off everything we learned in Shadowbringers, words straight from the horse's mouth. The ancients heard a scary sound, and it caused them to destroy themselves with creation magic. That's what happened. Personally, I'm of the belief that the ancients were a flawed race with more magical power than they were mentally prepared to handle. The end was inevitable and would have happened no matter what. That's probably why venat and her gang decided to go with a sundering route.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

They are living beings, whether or not their souls used to be something else doesn't magically mean they didn't flourish. Life flourished for a long time in the sundered world but now you're going to ignore that just because some ascian who you've become a fanboy of has a sob story to make you feel bad?

No thanks. Emet is a genocidal psychopath. Ascians are genocidal psychopaths and villains who needed to be stopped. Hydaelyn's world has not faced an end of days for many many thousands of years, and even did not have calamities without direct involvement by Ascians who cause them. There's no reason to see hydaelyn as anything but good.

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Your argument seems to be based on people being zodiark's fan boys. I would say the reverse is true of you only with Hydaelyn instead.

Returning to the debate though, I think there is a distinction to be made between what the ascians did and wanted, and what Zodiark did and wanted. From what we can tell Zodiark stopped the end days and the plan that the ascians concocted to sacrifice the lives of the star to restore the souls lost was never accomplished perhaps due to Hydeayns interference.

But the question remains, why was only so few opposed to Zodiark or fearful of him?

As others mentioned, Azem wasnt opposed to creation itself, but seemd to not agree with the creation of Zodiark or Hydealyn. The question is why?

I still think that Zodiark himself should be seen as separate from his summoners desires and not seen as inherantly evil though. He accomplished the task that he was created for, he stopped the final days and restored the planet at a terrible cost, but one that was aggreeable to those who sacrificed themselves to achieve it. Emet Selch told us that directly and thinking on it logically. Given the disposition of Amaurotians we have seen, it seems that they would be open to such an occurance especially as they were already sacrificing themselves to drive creations like Quetzacotl, in that case, the summoner thought they were proctecting the building.

I think its easy to see the scrifice as wholly evil. But given the choice was between that and extinction... you can kind of see why they would do it and also why those who survived might want to do anything to see those lives restored. Either way i think its thoroughly in the gray area.

Id say this though, we do not know enough yet to detirmine whether hydealyn being summoned was actually required. There is something odd about how Venar talks about it. Her detirmination to be the core, and the fact that so few agreed with them. In a democracy it is akin to the least voted party taking power, despite the opponants having a clear majority.

Hydealyns actions in sundering the star technically caused more death than Zodiark as while the scrifice would have been of some of the lives, Hydealyn's sundering actually sacrificed far more lives in order to split the souls into fragments to populate the world. We do not know if this genocide actually resulted in the extinction of the original races and the ones existing now are due to evolution,or if some few survived.

I think that the former is true given that all was sundered. Though we have to consider whether the act of sundering actualy caused the death of those sundered, it is implied to be the case.

I do think that trying to be so binary about Zodiark and Hydaelyn is a fool’s game since they are written to not be viewed that way. Let's take a step back and understand the ancient point of view towards the final day by taking a look at the side quest “Debate and Discourse”

Loquacious Amaurotine:
“As to the matter of what subject we shall debate today, I propose the recent calamity which has befallen our friends across the pond. What say you?”

“The singular point of contention is, of course, whether or not Amaurot should intervene on their behalf.”

“I believe we should. The scale of the disaster which threatens that distant metropolis is of a scale heretofore unseen, and so equally considerable resources must be committed to counteracting its effects.”

At this point we can infer three things.
-Amaurot is NOT the only civilization in the unsundered world
-They are one of if not the most powerful beings on the planet
-This calamity which we figure out is the beginning of the Final Days has never been seen up to this point in history

This is the viewpoint from someone who agrees with interventions. The counter point is-

Amaurotine Firebrand:

“I disagree. The scale concerns me less than the nature of the proposition itself. Who are we to unilaterally intervene in the affairs of those half a world away? Are we to be the saviors of one and all? Such arrogance may well lead to our own downfall.”

Though Amaurot has God like powers this guy believes to not intervene. Not out of a holier than thou attitude towards others but due to the idea of sovereignty.

It’s kind of the same idea of why Superman won’t kill. If they cross that moral line how easy does it become to blur everything else they set upon themselves. If Amaurot decides to play world police now how is that going to shape the world in the future?


No one likes being told what to do so having demi-gods interfering in your daily life telling you what is and isn’t correct doesn’t sound rad

At this point the WoL can respond in two ways. By dropping Louisoix’s favorite quote.

“To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom─it is indolence.”

Or instead with the more jaded answer of-

“We cannot save everyone. Sometimes, it is all we can do to save ourselves.”

Picking either option leads to the Loquacious Amaurotine citing that attempting to save these people could be a perfect opportunity to test their new creations as “What benefits Amaurot benefits all creation,”

And the Amaurotine Firebrand retorts with

“How readily you cede the moral high ground! Was not our young friend's point that we have an ethical obligation to aid those in need? Yet not only do you instead elect to focus on the benefit to Amaurot alone, but you also deprive our distant neighbors of the agency to determine their own fate!”

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Originally Posted by HiraishinNoJutsu

continuing my post above

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At this point you're probably wondering “Why did this dweeb make such a long post for stuff we already know” Reason being I think this is one of THE MOST IMPORTANT side quests in the game because it allows you to take a peek at the mentality of the ancients

To say that they were just some snobs in an ivory tower or that they were loveable stewards of the planets misses half the picture. The emergence of the sound and the Ancients manifesting their nightmares was the first real tragedy the ancient world faced and they dropped the ball completely. But, we gotta understand WHY amaurot was already in overtime in the first place.

TL;DR it's impossible to boil down the ancients or their creations to X or Y because parties from both sides believe two very different ideas of what should be done.

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Originally Posted by HiraishinNoJutsu

At this point you're probably wondering “Why did this dweeb make such a long post for stuff we already know” Reason being I think this is one of THE MOST IMPORTANT side quests in the game because it allows you to take a peek at the mentality of the ancients

To say that they were just some snobs in an ivory tower or that they were loveable stewards of the planets misses half the picture. The emergence of the sound and the Ancients manifesting their nightmares was the first real tragedy the ancient world faced and they dropped the ball completely. But, we gotta understand WHY amaurot was already in overtime in the first place.

TL;DR it's impossible to boil down the ancients or their creations to X or Y because parties from both sides believe two very different ideas of what should be done.

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Have to say i agree with 99% of your points, they’re really thought out and worded. The only thing i slightly disagree with is them “dropping the ball.” I feel the situation wasn’t something that could really be planned properly for. We’re told the crisis escalated very rapidly and they were trying to research the phenomenon as best they could it seems based on the lore entries. If it was indeed some kind of alien-like entity or even just something completely unknown to them i don’t think it’s their fault for not having planned for that. Other than that very great posts :)

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Have to say i agree with 99% of your points, they’re really thought out and worded. The only thing i slightly disagree with is them “dropping the ball.” I feel the situation wasn’t something that could really be planned properly for. We’re told the crisis escalated very rapidly and they were trying to research the phenomenon as best they could it seems based on the lore entries. If it was indeed some kind of alien-like entity or even just something completely unknown to them i don’t think it’s their fault for not having planned for that. Other than that very great posts :)

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yeah thats something I probably should have phrased better but I liked the "overtime" analogy lol. but you are 100% correct because as far as we know Zodiark wasn't the first choice "wish machine" will fix everything type deal. Elidibus sacrificing himself was pretty much after they were all at wits end, Amaurot the dungeon does an excellent job at illustrating the devestation!

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Originally Posted by Lauront

You are making assumptions about tempering when we don’t know the full extent of how it works yet. Even Ardbert himself muses over whether he may have been tempered.

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I never said it was impossible, just that Hydaelyn tempering Ardbert makes no sense and does not fit on either a contextual or metatextual level. His reactions, his actions, his responses, none of them fit any example of tempering that we’ve seen. And in the event he was tempered I fail to see why his companions, who were not interacted with by Minfilia directly, would be the ones arguing for Hydaelyns wants in that moment.

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While it is true that they didn’t like hoarding ideas, they also ensured that there was a bureaucratic approval process for these, and dangerous concepts were not allowed to go in general circulation.

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An important point! However, I argue from our experience in Anyder that Venat holds no little amount of sway. While not a member of the Convocation she was able to convince a group to dissent and form an opposition faction, an unheard of occurrence. Exactly what place in the Ancients society she was in is unclear, but given her influence and her strength (as is remarked on in the archive), she may be up there in chain of command.

And even still, there’s one small fact we seem to be overlooking. The base of operations for the Light faction is deep in an actual archive of concepts. A repository for the Akadaemia.

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URIANGER: That this facility shared intimate ties with the Akadaemia Anyder may readily be discerned from the common element in their names. Based on mine observations, 'tis like that the forms housed here were conveyed unto the Akadaemia only when required, and thence returned for safekeeping.

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It seems logical that any who would have access to such a facility would either possess the knowledge of summoning itself, or the the means to obtain it. They’re sitting where such things are stored after all!

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To further muddy the waters, as Emet-Selch himself noted, enervation was a concept they had never seen before

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Enervation was indeed unique, yet doesn’t that just indicate that it’s likely the faction of Light derived it themselves?

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We don’t know the specifics of what aspect of the summoning Azem opposed. Just that they opposed it. The shift in the intended heart from Loghrif to Elidibus (a little brother figure in the Convocation and close to Azem) may well have been a catalyst. To remind you of the state of the world before they pressed forward:

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Let’s be careful not to presume. As you point out later the wording is that the overtures were unanswered, not necessarily refused. Azems role seems to be the wildcard, and without clear evidence of what they were doing I would be skeptical of anyone claiming they chose a specific side, Light or Dark.

We can argue until the cows come home about whether Ardbert is tempered or not. He himself seemed undecided on the matter. Like I said, I don't consider it to be a particularly relevant point, irrespective of how or why it's manifesting, because of how fluid the concept is and the fact that it doesn't mean the same as mind control, so it doesn't add all that much one way or another for the time being. Nonetheless, the Word of the Mother is very clear in how she phrases it what the expectations upon him are. Whether he is tempered "makes sense" or not will depend on the shape and form of it.

As for Venat and her role, I agree on that point, they do hold her in high esteem and it is entirely possible she was a high ranking bureaucrat herself and acquired the concept in that manner.

Regarding the concept's origin, I bring that up to point out that it could be a possible explanation as to why it may have resulted in the entire world being sundered in spite of their wishes.

As for Azem, that is my point.

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

I think its easy to see the scrifice as wholly evil. But given the choice was between that and extinction... you can kind of see why they would do it and also why those who survived might want to do anything to see those lives restored. Either way i think its thoroughly in the gray area.

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The moral question isn’t over the willing sacrifices however, but the plan to replace those sacrificed with the life that was not yet born. It’s in that plan we see Venat and her followers dissent.

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Id say this though, we do not know enough yet to detirmine whether hydealyn being summoned was actually required. There is something odd about how Venar talks about it. Her detirmination to be the core, and the fact that so few agreed with them. In a democracy it is akin to the least voted party taking power, despite the opponants having a clear majority.

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I’m extremely hesitant to make any sort of observation on the morality of these decisions based on how many they had agree. Remember, after Zodiarks summoning the question was over whether they would be continuing with the plan to regain their friends souls. It’s entirely unsurprising that many would side with that effort.

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I think that the former is true given that all was sundered. Though we have to consider whether the act of sundering actualy caused the death of those sundered, it is implied to be the case.

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Emet-Selchs’ lecture in the solar I believe makes it clear that the act of sundering does not, itself, cause death.

https://i.imgur.com/jIZVKdF.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/iAf20K1.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FjFKmUH.jpg

The soul and its qualities are split, but both are still alive.

I'd consider the Sundering to be the equivalent of death given that those struck by it are no longer who they once where in either mind or body. It's a technicality, really - I doubt many here would be pleased to see themselves ripped away from their friends, family and pets whilst also being made physically weaker and with little but fragmented memories of what once was.

A key point will be whether it was an intentional act or an accident. So far, we know that Hydaelyn was brought forth to supposedly keep Zodiark's power in check. Yet that was done in defiance of what the majority of the Ancients desired.

Ultimately, the Sundering itself is not framed as a good thing by the writers themselves - but it is an event that happened and one that cannot be reversed easily.

As for the morality side of things, Yoshi-P had this to say:

Talking of the story, what was your personal favourite while going through the expansion?

Yoshida - That’s a tough question, being in the development team, I’m involved with lots of adjustment and tweaking during creations, so I see all the cut-scenes and while in development I give feedback on if a cut-scene should be bringing up the tension in certain parts. I had to play Shadowbringers four times, so it’s hard to have one favourite part.

If I needed to pick one, there is a scene after you complete a dungeon in a cave where you see the murals that is the dream that the ancients saw which is about the war between Hydaelyn and Zodiark. Emet-Selch takes the whole party to the cave and talks about the war and Y’sthola, and other NPCs were surprised by his revelation about what had happened. This struck really hard to me.

This scene is really underlining the story of Shadowbringers. Everyone is in a different position, the view of winners will be different to those that have lost, and the truth that they may tell will also be different. There is not really any point in arguing who is right or wrong but what is really important is to understand that there are so many views, and we need to accept it; how can we move forward by us understanding each other.

That was more just for Shadowbringers, but it’s also a common theme through Eorzea and FFXIV. What Emet-Selch was expressing is his view that ‘this is my opinion not requiring approval from anyone because this is what I believe’. He doesn’t even reject what Haydelin is saying, he just accepts it. What he expressed in that scene was ‘how great ancients are and the deep understanding they have with people who have different opinions to themselves.

Source: https://www.dailystar.co.uk/tech/gam...shida-21385561

Was rewatching some cutscenes and just thought everyone should remember this line as it might be important in the Future

Venat:
"If Hydaelyn is to stand a chance of opposing Him, I am the only one who might serve as her heart"

As we know primals and creations are effected by the thoughts on has while summoning them. An example of the former; Ga bu's manifestation of Titan being very childlike and the Latter; Emet-Selch's recreation of Hythlodeus being more "sophisticated" as his mind wandered during his creation of Amaurot.

Elidibus being picked as the heart of Zodiark for his child like innocence and sense of morality also implies that "core" of the ancient "Primals" play a large factor in how they act.
(I put quotations around primal as Emet says primals after a fashion meaning that they are similar but not identical to what we know today)

Hydaelyn had a completely unique skill as mentioned above of "enervation" meaning that she was different to Zodiark in some ways

With that information we have two very important questions that must be answered:
-Is the heart of Zodiark and Hydaelyn conscious of what they are doing while in the drivers seat? (Will become important if the sundering is revealed to be intentional cause then we're able to place blame upon Venat since they knew what they were doing. Bonus! Venat willingly drop kicked a child and that's really funny)

-Why did Venat deny her other colleagues when they wanted to become the heart of Hydaelyn? Why did it HAVE to be Venat? What did she have that they didn't?

If the glowing figure/woman on the Endwalker art is indeed Venat it would give us much needed insight because even though Hydaelyn did help us out through the story she has also hasn't kept it 100 with the WoL either and whether you are team Zodiark, Team Hydaelyn, or waiting for more answers you have to concede Emet did a better job laying out his case than Hydaelyn has bothered to.

EDIT: Forgot to mention how did Venat's group get the blue prints to make something highly specialized to stop Zodiark? was one of them apart of the bureau of architects? Did they just reverse engineer hydaelyn from analyzing Zodiark? not sure if it's stated anywhere

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Originally Posted by HiraishinNoJutsu

-Why did Venat deny her other colleagues when they wanted to become the heart of Hydaelyn? Why did it HAVE to be Venat? What did she have that they didn't?

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This is the big thing I'm wondering, just exactly who Venat is. Assume the abilities of Hydaelyn and Zodiark are linked to their hearts. Zodiark possesses powerful creation magick, much like Elidibus who was his heart. If the dividing power of Hydaelyn came from Venat...perhaps Venat had the powers to separate things? Since Hades mentioned that it was unheard of, it was likely not a power that came from Amaurot, they'd know of how it would work. The only things I can think of is either it being knowledge elsewhere in the world hidden even from the Amaurotines...or it's a power nobody on the Star could have, meaning it and Venat came from another Star.

lets be fair if the power of the primal comes from its summoners if the mother crystal did not have dividing she would have lost she simply did not have enough followers it was most likely 100 % on purpose that the world was sundered as it was the only way to contain zodiark if zodiark is the will of the star like emet says then dividing the star would divide zodiark and thus remove his power by shattering it into 14 fragments

i would say hydaelyn was summoned in response to the never ending need for sacrifices to keep zodiark ancored in reality we know that by design the primals need huge amounts of aether in order to keep existing and with most of the ancients tempered they would happily keep giving him those sacrifices perhaps even giving him the new life would not bring their people back but was simply something the tempering persuaded them it would combined that with the huge amount of aether zodiark would need operate his powers you have a endless wheel of death that never stops for a goal that is unobtainable

and even if zodiark could bring those 50 % back how do we know they would be any different then when lakshmi brough back that dead daughter a false life

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Originally Posted by _Koneko_

i would say hydaelyn was summoned in response to the never ending need for sacrifices to keep zodiark ancored in reality we know that by design the primals need huge amounts of aether in order to keep existing and with most of the ancients tempered they would happily keep giving him those sacrifices perhaps even giving him the new life would not bring their people back but was simply something the tempering persuaded them it would combined that with the huge amount of aether zodiark would need operate his powers you have a endless wheel of death that never stops for a goal that is unobtainable

and even if zodiark could bring those 50 % back how do we know they would be any different then when lakshmi brough back that dead daughter a false life

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Both very reasonable and compelling questions! The timeline of events as we know are (correct me if I'm wrong)

-Everything is hunky dory in Amaurot and the Ancient world as a whole
-Someone hears a "keening" from the earth and the rest of the world starts experiencing a calamity
-Amaurot researches and discussed what to do about this as they are sitting on their hands the sound arrives
-Amaurot dungeon takes place shows us the devastation that occured
-The convocation as a last resort plans to summon Zodiark and Azem disagreeing with it leaves
-Half of Amaurotine life is sacrificed to bring Zodiark into existence and stop the final days
-Another half is then sacrificed to restore the capacity to host life

We know how the story goes from there.

Seeing as Zodiark's tempered sometimes actively go against the will you would assume he would want; the great rejoining. Looking at you Mitron! Compressing all of time and space to spend time with your girlfriend isn't restoring the ancient world >:^(. Maybe the convocation was fine with returning to stewards of the star after they got their gang back, if said homies would be whole is another question I don't have an answer to.

I could discuss the logistics of Zodiark/Hydaelyn tempering all day, it's super interesting! I've heard things from

"Maybe Hydaelyn tempers all the Warriors of Light so they don't get claimed by Zodiark and "Hear, Feel, Think" are her first commandments to restore their own will to them?" to

"Emet's words in Qitana Revel "Learn, look, and remember" being what Zodiark tells the Asican's to restore their memories of the ancient world"

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Originally Posted by _Koneko_

lets be fair if the power of the primal comes from its summoners if the mother crystal did not have dividing she would have lost she simply did not have enough followers it was most likely 100 % on purpose that the world was sundered as it was the only way to contain zodiark if zodiark is the will of the star like emet says then dividing the star would divide zodiark and thus remove his power by shattering it into 14 fragments

i would say hydaelyn was summoned in response to the never ending need for sacrifices to keep zodiark ancored in reality we know that by design the primals need huge amounts of aether in order to keep existing and with most of the ancients tempered they would happily keep giving him those sacrifices perhaps even giving him the new life would not bring their people back but was simply something the tempering persuaded them it would combined that with the huge amount of aether zodiark would need operate his powers you have a endless wheel of death that never stops for a goal that is unobtainable

and even if zodiark could bring those 50 % back how do we know they would be any different then when lakshmi brough back that dead daughter a false life

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I dont think that the Amaurtean creations needed an endless supply of Aether to continue to exist. The constructs like Zodiark and Hydealyn were created in a way that makes them permement and stable. Zodiark did need the energy to restore the original souls because he would need to plug the gap in power. I think this is why Emet say's they are primals after a fashion. It is implied that much of the modern monsters and creatures were originally constructs created by the Amaurteans that have existed past their ultimate fall. By this reckoning, it would mean that these too would fundementally be a primal.

I think there is a difference between primal summoning and the creation magic used by the amauroteans and i think the difference comes down to the amount of natural aether available and also how it is achieved. The Amauroteans seened to have a detailed plan of the construct meaning its shape and existence was set, while primals are loosely based on desire and belief which results in the fundamental shift in mentality with each subsequent summoning. Which becomes a strange self fulfilling cycle. The summoner calls forth the primal > the primal tempers> the tempered continue to summon > the summon retempers the only exception to this cycle seems to deities like Shiva, Thorden and Ramuh each of whom have their own characteristics. Shiva is a particulaly interesting incarnation as it means the primal would essentially temper herself with her own will if that is what is happening except that the echo would prevent that. Thorden also seemed himself after his defeat. Either way its an interesting concept.

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

With Endwalker approaching I have been thinking a lot about Hydealyn and Zodiark. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that Hydealyn isnt as benevolant as she first appears. Which got me thinking about Zodiark and I realised that aside from what we have been told, weve seen no actual evidence that Zodiark is "Evil" if anything, what we have seen in 5.3 would suggest that he isnt.

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Is an hurricane evil? Is an earthquake evil? No, but they certainly can be dangerous and kill many.
Same with the primals - including Hydaelyn and Zodiark. They don't really have free will, which means they can't make moral choices as such and therefore can't be considered "good" or "evil" in the conventional sense.
They are more like forces of nature, Dangerous, but can be useful if your goals happen to align with theirs.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The thing is , Lahabrea also calls her a parasite.

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Lahabrea also called Zodiark the One True God, and Ultima as "a sliver of Zodiark's power", when we know the former is false and the latter is so complicated that it's effectively false.

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

I dont think that the Amaurtean creations needed an endless supply of Aether to continue to exist. The constructs like Zodiark and Hydealyn were created in a way that makes them permement and stable. Zodiark did need the energy to restore the original souls because he would need to plug the gap in power. I think this is why Emet say's they are primals after a fashion. It is implied that much of the modern monsters and creatures were originally constructs created by the Amaurteans that have existed past their ultimate fall. By this reckoning, it would mean that these too would fundementally be a primal.

I think there is a difference between primal summoning and the creation magic used by the amauroteans and i think the difference comes down to the amount of natural aether available and also how it is achieved. The Amauroteans seened to have a detailed plan of the construct meaning its shape and existence was set, while primals are loosely based on desire and belief which results in the fundamental shift in mentality with each subsequent summoning. Which becomes a strange self fulfilling cycle. The summoner calls forth the primal > the primal tempers> the tempered continue to summon > the summon retempers the only exception to this cycle seems to deities like Shiva, Thorden and Ramuh each of whom have their own characteristics. Shiva is a particulaly interesting incarnation as it means the primal would essentially temper herself with her own will if that is what is happening except that the echo would prevent that. Thorden also seemed himself after his defeat. Either way its an interesting concept.

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nothing suggest that they do not operate as traditional primals including the active tempering by that logic they would need aether to maintain their existence a existence that would eventually bleed the land dry when you run out of ancients with their huge mana capacity to sacrifice hades by his own admittance is tempered sure he never lied to us but the information provided by an ascian is always sus to me people have claimed Hydaelyn lied to us before but that would only be true if Hydaelyn and zodiark did not pre exist before they was summoned i believe all the primal forces are in fact pre existing forces before they was summoned as primals I believe ramuh even makes mention that he existed before he was summoned by the sylphs but i could be wrong :D

if we take Hydaelyn at her word that he grew power hungry then he may have in fact master minded his own summoning and is a bad guy but if Hydaelyn and zodiark are two parts of a pair what caused the inbalance was it the rampant abuse of the ancient's creation magic assuming Hydaelyn was being truthful what would cause zodiark to become unbalanced

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Is an hurricane evil? Is an earthquake evil? No, but they certainly can be dangerous and kill many.
Same with the primals - including Hydaelyn and Zodiark. They don't really have free will, which means they can't make moral choices as such and therefore can't be considered "good" or "evil" in the conventional sense.
They are more like forces of nature, Dangerous, but can be useful if your goals happen to align with theirs.

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You say this and quite often people draw a line that Hydealyn = Good and Zodiark = evil. For me i think its neither and that the story will be nuanced and complicated. I do think though, there has been a lot of time spent narratively speaking to paint Zodiark as an evil entity that must be stopped, or an entity that is bad if he wakes up. It will be interesting to see things from his perspective which is what i hope we see eventually.

There are certainly things about Hydealyn that i find are a bit sketchy and grey and the most prominent is where she aetherically ate minfilia because she was too weak, yet was sat in the middle of the aetherial sea. So for me either our understanding of how aether works is wrong, or there is something missing there. Of course it could be that she refused to absorb the aether for reasons, but if that is the case she chose to sacrifice minfilia instead, which opens up an even bigger can of worms to consider.

Honestly my view is that whether Zodiark is good or evil is, in the end, almost entirely irrelevant. The bit that matters is that his (self-proclaimed) representatives, the Ascians, are definitely evil.

By which I mean how every Ascian we've met has been pointlessly cruel, including to their own. The first time we see any Ascian care about another is in the Eden raids, with Mitron and Loghrif, and at that point it was already twisted into a creepy possessive thing. Even Elidibus was concerned more with his (imperfect) memories of the Convocation, not what the Ascians had actually become.

And when the Unsundered all perished and the Sundered were free to do their own thing, one of them went creepy-possessive, and another went "let's destroy the world".

So if Zodiark wants to be seen as not-evil, he'd need to fire all the Ascians and get better employees.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Honestly my view is that whether Zodiark is good or evil is, in the end, almost entirely irrelevant. The bit that matters is that his (self-proclaimed) representatives, the Ascians, are definitely evil.

By which I mean how every Ascian we've met has been pointlessly cruel, including to their own. The first time we see any Ascian care about another is in the Eden raids, with Mitron and Loghrif, and at that point it was already twisted into a creepy possessive thing. Even Elidibus was concerned more with his (imperfect) memories of the Convocation, not what the Ascians had actually become.

And when the Unsundered all perished and the Sundered were free to do their own thing, one of them went creepy-possessive, and another went "let's destroy the world".

So if Zodiark wants to be seen as not-evil, he'd need to fire all the Ascians and get better employees.

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Except again, it’s perspective. I wouldn’t see them as evil so much as trying to restore their world and loved ones back to how they were. Again, if we want to get technical, the rejoinings would save more lives than just keeping the world sundered. I’m so shocked honestly that people still continue to call them villains or zodiark is evil or they’re evil when the devs themselves said there is no good or there is no evil. Yoshi P specifically wanted this to be a story that isn’t black and white.

uhm because they are evil and villains by the D&D scale both zodiark and the ascians would fall into chaotic evil

The major precepts of this alignment are freedom, randomness, and woe. Laws and order, kindness, and good deeds are disdained. Life has no value. By promoting chaos and evil, those of this alignment hope to bring themselves to positions of power, glory, and prestige in a system ruled by individual caprice and their own whim. The chaotic evil creature holds that individual freedom and choice is important, and that other individuals and their freedoms are unimportant if they cannot be held by the individuals through their own strength and merit. Thus, law and order rends to promote not individuals but groups, and groups suppress individual volition and success.

The chaotic evil also likes to corrupt the innocent and virtuous. People are play-things to the chaotic evil, to be used and manipulated for their own personal pleasure. A chaotic evil doesn't necessarily go after individuals just because they stand in the way of their success, they will harm or destroy people for the sheer pleasure of it.


how many people have the ascians / paragons corrupted for their own ends face it they are evil

hades alone has most likely killed billions i'm glad we ended this monster

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Originally Posted by _Koneko_

uhm because they are evil and villains by the D&D scale both zodiark and the ascians would fall into chaotic evil

The major precepts of this alignment are freedom, randomness, and woe. Laws and order, kindness, and good deeds are disdained. Life has no value. By promoting chaos and evil, those of this alignment hope to bring themselves to positions of power, glory, and prestige in a system ruled by individual caprice and their own whim. The chaotic evil creature holds that individual freedom and choice is important, and that other individuals and their freedoms are unimportant if they cannot be held by the individuals through their own strength and merit. Thus, law and order rends to promote not individuals but groups, and groups suppress individual volition and success.

The chaotic evil also likes to corrupt the innocent and virtuous. People are play-things to the chaotic evil, to be used and manipulated for their own personal pleasure. A chaotic evil doesn't necessarily go after individuals just because they stand in the way of their success, they will harm or destroy people for the sheer pleasure of it.


how many people have the ascians / paragons corrupted for their own ends face it they are evil

hades alone has most likely killed billions i'm glad we ended this monster

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They aren’t evil in my eyes. The devs have confirmed it. We can argue the logistics all day over who murdered more, ascians or hydaelyn. In the end, she would have murdered more because of rendering beings mortal. It’s unnatural and it made the entire world unstable, the devs even confirm it. I don’t know why were even using a d&d scale in all of this but i digress. Case and point, sundered beings/ascians are living at the expense of the other. If i had my choice i’d side with the ascians 100% because in the end it would mean less death, a stable world, and no more wars.

no one died in the sundering by hades's own words hades has killed more just because he don't consider them truly alive don't mean his not a remorseless mass murderer and the star is better of now that this monster has finally been brought to justice and the countless souls who perished at his hand has been avenged

if this was D&D hades would have gone straight to the nine hells lucky for him the life stream is not that judgemental and he will most likely just get reincarnated despite his many many crimes

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Originally Posted by _Koneko_

no one died in the sundering by hades's own words hades has killed more just because he don't consider them truly alive don't mean his not a remorseless mass murderer and the star is better of now that this monster has finally been brought to justice and the countless souls who perished at his hand has been avenged

if this was D&D hades would have gone straight to the nine hells lucky for him the life stream is not that judgemental and he will most likely just get reincarnated despite his many many crimes

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No one died by the sundering....are you serious? I’m just going to stop this debate because it’s going nowhere and you apparently haven’t read up on the story to know common things. The sundering rendered the once nigh-on immortal beings into mortal ones. This made them die to a much younger age,susceptible to illness which based on Hades’ short story we know wasn’t something the ancients dealt with, and suspectible to war. Not to mention it could be argued the sundering caused the death of people by destroying their memories and splitting them apart into fractured beings. The ascians killed a lot but you have to look at it from their perspective but also, think about how much the sundering has killed as well. Also you may not like it but he’s most likely coming back :)

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Except again, it’s perspective. I wouldn’t see them as evil so much as trying to restore their world and loved ones back to how they were. Again, if we want to get technical, the rejoinings would save more lives than just keeping the world sundered. I’m so shocked honestly that people still continue to call them villains or zodiark is evil or they’re evil when the devs themselves said there is no good or there is no evil. Yoshi P specifically wanted this to be a story that isn’t black and white.

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Except for Elidibus, the rest of the ascians have so far been shown as no more than mustache-twirling villains.

I’m not sure how Lahabrea could be considered “morally grey”. The man was a sociopath and said it was all for him and had to be corrected by Elidibus that it was for Zodiark. The rest of the ascians even called him an idiot.

Not everything Emet-Selch does is directly “for the cause” either. Like possessing a random innocent on the First and mutating their body until it looks like a form he’s comfortable with. Then there’s the Garlean Civil War, which he instigated on purpose to cause bloodshed and chaos despite it not being essential to his plans since the gas weapon was already tested and done.

And then there’s their whole MO: spread the seeds of conflict all across the world over and over, and then reap their harvest later when it suits them. They taught the elezen about the power of dragon eyes and started the Dragonsong War. That had no benefit to them for 1000 years until they decided they could use Thordan to go on crusade as a primal with the power of the Warring Triad.

Even with their goals in mind, they still seem intent on terrorizing the realm constantly and I’m not sure what part of that is “not being a villain”. Elidibus is their baby sitter and without him, everything would have gone to hell in a hand basket. They don’t even start listening to him until after Nabriales went rogue and got himself killed because he saw an opportunity.

He is neither good nor evil, it only wants wat their summoner wanted, salvation.

Good for those that want to go back to the good old days, bad for those that were born after the final days.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Except for Elidibus, the rest of the ascians have so far been shown as no more than mustache-twirling villains.

I’m not sure how Lahabrea could be considered “morally grey”. The man was a sociopath and said it was all for him and had to be corrected by Elidibus that it was for Zodiark. The rest of the ascians even called him an idiot.

Not everything Emet-Selch does is directly “for the cause” either. Like possessing a random innocent on the First and mutating their body until it looks like a form he’s comfortable with. Then there’s the Garlean Civil War, which he instigated on purpose to cause bloodshed and chaos despite it not being essential to his plans since the gas weapon was already tested and done.

And then there’s their whole MO: spread the seeds of conflict all across the world over and over, and then reap their harvest later when it suits them. They taught the elezen about the power of dragon eyes and started the Dragonsong War. That had no benefit to them for 1000 years until they decided they could use Thordan to go on crusade as a primal with the power of the Warring Triad.

Even with their goals in mind, they still seem intent on terrorizing the realm constantly and I’m not sure what part of that is “not being a villain”. Elidibus is their baby sitter and without him, everything would have gone to hell in a hand basket. They don’t even start listening to him until after Nabriales went rogue and got himself killed because he saw an opportunity.

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I think whether the ascians are seen as evil comes down to perspective. Yes they are comitting genocide on a regular basis. But you have to consider, they have seen a "perfect" version of the world.The sundering is an unatural occurance and has splintered something that should be whole into multiple parts. It is an anomaly. To use a real life example, if a bout of radiation or an illness fundementally ultered the biology - those who had known what they should have been would look to heal or repair. But those who were born altered and did not know would see themselves as how they should be even though thier chang was due to x reason.

This is the very argument that the MSQ is making. To the ascians the sundered lifeforms are broken and incomplete, something that naturally should never have been. But to those sundered they are "natural" because they have not seen what was before. Worse still is that the ascians can see the hue of a soul and so know exactly who the sundered soul once was, to them they are seeing a friend or loved one who has been altered and broken.

i think Emet's story in shadowbringers was his inner conflict between seeing the sundered life as 'alive' and whole or broken. He was desperate to guage them worthy because then the burden he had carried was lost. To a being that lives forever and has multiple conscious lifetimes, knows that souls are reincarnated again after death, the premature end of their "current" life would not matter overly much. Obviously it is horrendous to those who are sundered and to us who can relate to them due to the natutre of our own existence. Essentially while we can imagne whats its like to be an immortal god like being, we cant really relate, but we can to the ordinary person.

Ultimately when it comes to the ascians they are villains because their method and resolve is horrendous. Their intentions though, I can't actually find something bad in the motivation behind them. They just want to restore the world to how it should have been. Effectively they just want to heal their people and although it is wrong, it is also understandable from their perspective.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Except again, it’s perspective. I wouldn’t see them as evil so much as trying to restore their world and loved ones back to how they were. Again, if we want to get technical, the rejoinings would save more lives than just keeping the world sundered. I’m so shocked honestly that people still continue to call them villains or zodiark is evil or they’re evil when the devs themselves said there is no good or there is no evil. Yoshi P specifically wanted this to be a story that isn’t black and white.

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Again, the Ascians are cruel to each other. Fandaniel quite obviously doesn't want to save the world: he wants to destroy it. (At least so he says, and the only way he can be redeemed is by the story going "actually he's lying because Reasons".) Emet-Selch wants to rejoin the worlds to restore the lost Amaurotines via further sacrifice, and in doing so he doesn't even bother to check up on what happened to Mitron. Elidibus doesn't even remember why he's doing what he does, and he's the nicest Ascian we've met apart from Gaia. Lahabrea keeps ranting about the One True God, so he's clearly out of it, to the point where when his True Death is confirmed, Emet-Selch went "lol he was dumb". I don't even know what Nabriales was trying to do other than gloat at us for whatever reason.

And Mitron attempts to forcibly keep Loghrif by his side, despite her express denial as Gaia, so he's definitely evil, in the "sexual harassment lawsuit" kind of way.

None of this is necessary to cause the rejoinings. The Ascians we've met (again, other than Gaia/Loghrif) were cruel for the sake of being petty jerks.

So yes, I believe the Ascians are evil, because they don't even treat each other as equals and respected colleagues.

Bit late, but I don't think characters like Tiamat or Middy are so powerful because there Unsundered, I think it's just because there Dragons and Dragons are naturally freakishly powerful.

Were giving no indication that Mortal's from the Shards are inherently weaker then Mortals from the Source. And we have been given no indication that "Immortal boundless wells of Aether" is the natural state of all Sapients from other worlds.

In fact, even if you decide to ignore all the Crossover events, Omega still disproves the latter, because he is explicitly pulling from other FF games where we know the natural state of what would be the Unsundered equivalents of those places is not "Magic Demigods"

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Originally Posted by Slatersev

Bit late, but I don't think characters like Tiamat or Middy are so powerful because there Unsundered, I think it's just because there Dragons and Dragons are naturally freakishly powerful.

Were giving no indication that Mortal's from the Shards are inherently weaker then Mortals from the Source. And we have been given no indication that "Immortal boundless wells of Aether" is the natural state of all Sapients from other worlds.

In fact, even if you decide to ignore all the Crossover events, Omega still disproves the latter, because he is explicitly pulling from other FF games where we know the natural state of what would be the Unsundered equivalents of those places is not "Magic Demigods"

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This is actually a really good point i hadn'd consistered and i think its natural that there is disparity between unsundered races. I would wager that either the Amauroteans are but one race of exceptionally gifted magic users, on the original world, or that they never met beings from other stars so their perpective is limited by what they think is "natural and perfect"

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

Ultimately when it comes to the ascians they are villains because their method and resolve is horrendous. Their intentions though, I can't actually find something bad in the motivation behind them. They just want to restore the world to how it should have been. Effectively they just want to heal their people and although it is wrong, it is also understandable from their perspective.

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Haven't you heard of the phrase "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"? I think that's quite apt for the ascians here. While their goals at one time may have been noble, at least to them, they have long since lost their way and now stand atop super-weapons while cackling.

At least to me, everything I learned about Amaurot in Shadowbringers told me that they were a society eventually headed to collapse, regardless of the Final Days. They were extremely arrogant and wielded the powers of creation as if they were gods. Of course they wouldn't view any new life as being worthy to exist. But what gives them the right to make that decision? Their society collapsed due to what seemed like to be its own making and Venat's rebellion even said that Zodiark was a temporary measure and the Final Days would happen again if they stayed the course.

We also don't know what it was like outside of Amaurot at the time. We do know that there were farm villagers though. Were they also perfect beings capable of creation magic and gifted with long lives? We also know there was death, Emet-Selch's Tales from the Shadows describes the Underworld and that all souls come back to it. I'm not sure that the old days were as "perfect" as the Amaurotians think it was. Azem certainly didn't think so if they refused the Convocation's help repeatedly and spent all of their time outside the city.

I don't think the Ascians have ever been presented as 'moustache twirling villains'. They've always been pushed as antagonists with a clear goal, even back in the days of ARR. We learned more about them over time, of course, though so too did we take that approach when it came to the Dravanians.

Personally I chose to take the same viewpoint as Yoshi-P:

Joel Couture, Siliconera: What inspired the storyline of Shadowbringers? What interested you in exploring how fine the line can be between good and evil?

Naoki Yoshida: Even in modern-day life, people already hold different views on where to draw the line between good and evil. The same can be said when you look back on history, in which the claims of those who emerged victorious were deemed to be right, whereas those who lost were wrong. However, with developments in culture and education, everyone knows that the world doesn’t work in a simple “good is right and evil is wrong” sort of way—I believe the world of Shadowbringers is a representation of that very idea.

Source: https://www.siliconera.com/final-fan...gh-emet-selch/

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

You say this and quite often people draw a line that Hydealyn = Good and Zodiark = evil. For me i think its neither and that the story will be nuanced and complicated. I do think though, there has been a lot of time spent narratively speaking to paint Zodiark as an evil entity that must be stopped, or an entity that is bad if he wakes up. It will be interesting to see things from his perspective which is what i hope we see eventually.

There are certainly things about Hydealyn that i find are a bit sketchy and grey and the most prominent is where she aetherically ate minfilia because she was too weak, yet was sat in the middle of the aetherial sea. So for me either our understanding of how aether works is wrong, or there is something missing there. Of course it could be that she refused to absorb the aether for reasons, but if that is the case she chose to sacrifice minfilia instead, which opens up an even bigger can of worms to consider.

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Given the fact that the aetherial sea is made up of, at least in part, the aether that constitutes souls, perhaps her hesitance is rooted in the fear that absorbing said ether is akin to destroying souls? Hydaelyn was capable of pulling specific souls out of the sea, so of all beings she should know what she was centered in.

Then there’s also the unknown of if a being disrupts or changes the flow in the sea, what would happen to the aetherial balance elsewhere.

Perhaps, in comparison to these other options, having a willing voice was a way to avoid doing that. It’s important to consider that whatever the impact, Hydaelyn refused to do so for some time, as her weakness was a long running trend that reached its peak in Heavensward (and maybe still continues)


Nothing solid, just theories.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Again, the Ascians are cruel to each other. Fandaniel quite obviously doesn't want to save the world: he wants to destroy it. (At least so he says, and the only way he can be redeemed is by the story going "actually he's lying because Reasons".) Emet-Selch wants to rejoin the worlds to restore the lost Amaurotines via further sacrifice, and in doing so he doesn't even bother to check up on what happened to Mitron. Elidibus doesn't even remember why he's doing what he does, and he's the nicest Ascian we've met apart from Gaia. Lahabrea keeps ranting about the One True God, so he's clearly out of it, to the point where when his True Death is confirmed, Emet-Selch went "lol he was dumb". I don't even know what Nabriales was trying to do other than gloat at us for whatever reason.

And Mitron attempts to forcibly keep Loghrif by his side, despite her express denial as Gaia, so he's definitely evil, in the "sexual harassment lawsuit" kind of way.

None of this is necessary to cause the rejoinings. The Ascians we've met (again, other than Gaia/Loghrif) were cruel for the sake of being petty jerks.

So yes, I believe the Ascians are evil, because they don't even treat each other as equals and respected colleagues.

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Did you really just compare Mitron and Loghrif’s situation as the “sexual harassment lawsuit” kind of way?Seriously?

sounds to me you need to read up on the story hades straight up admitting all the sundering did was split a person into 14 parts ... where hades him self has caused the death of billions of this split up people