Living dead must change

But then how to make it unique and fitting ?

There are plenty of ways of doing this.

We don't have an invuln that only negates attacks that would otherwise be lethal (i.e. prevents big hits, but doesn't prevent little hits that don't reduce you to 1 HP).
We don't have an 'invuln' that functions as a very quickly regenerating bubble (i.e. absorbs a set amount of damage off of every incoming attack up to 50% of your max HP).
We don't have an invuln that absorbs a set number of attacks before it dissipates.

DRK is shadow themed. What could you do?
1) Shadowform: Negates any attack that would otherwise be lethal. Damage prevented this way when the effect ends is converted into a temporary barrier (up to some maximum value).
2) In Your Darkest Hour: Creates a barrier around self that absorbs damage totaling 50% of the target's HP. This barrier regenerates after every attack absorbed in this way.
3) Our Resolve: Conjure shades from your memories to absorb the next three attacks received on your behalf. Bonus points if you get to pick which three.

4) Ephemeral Gloom: While you or the monsters targeting you are moving, negate all damage. Duration 10 seconds.
5) Caliginous Murk: Drown in darkness, becoming intangible preventing both damage taken and healing received. Duration 10 seconds.
6) Cimmerian Contract: Inflict a short lived, total blindness on your opponents, causing them to miss. Enemies' accuracy -100% Duration 6 seconds

Hehe. You got me spinning yarns, Lyth.

Bonus) Lything Dead: ???

I’m loving this thread so I guess I’ll try to repost one idea I had see if you guys like it.

It’s simple really I know some don’t want sacrifice but I think this is a decent one
Mp

After WD ends all mp is converted into hp on a % ratio of course instead of insta death kinda giving that soul survivor vibe as if Frey took the hit for you m. Just and idea you guys got some solid ones

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vatom

I’m loving this thread so I guess I’ll try to repost one idea I had see if you guys like it.

It’s simple really I know some don’t want sacrifice but I think this is a decent one
Mp

After WD ends all mp is converted into hp on a % ratio of course instead of insta death kinda giving that soul survivor vibe as if Frey took the hit for you m. Just and idea you guys got some solid ones

---

That doesn't sound to bad ? So at the end of Walking Dead, you drain into your MP to replenish HP as much as possible ? So if you coordinate with your healer you might barely lose any MP.
Though this costs you your main ressource and becomes a hefty DPS cost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalaam

That doesn't sound to bad ? So at the end of Walking Dead, you drain into your MP to replenish HP as much as possible ? So if you coordinate with your healer you might barely lose any MP.
Though this costs you your main ressource and becomes a hefty DPS cost.

---

It'd never happen. They made Darkside stop acting as an MP drain in Stormblood, and that's as close as we got as far as "slowly drain resources for a reason."
I still feel they should have leaned harder into that design and improved on how you can gain from managing your mana. But, "make it more accessible."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vatom

After WD ends all mp is converted into hp on a % ratio of course instead of insta death

---

To DRK, MP is DPS. If you make it so that Living Dead consumes all, or a large portion of, their MP you are forcing the use of Living Dead to cost the DRK dps which is not something you want to do. You are basically trading one built in potential punishment, the DRK being killed by the ability if not healed, for a different punishment in dps loss.
In the end, to create proper parity between the invulns either all of them need some sort of caveat mechanic like Living Dead has or none of them should have one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vatom

I’m loving this thread so I guess I’ll try to repost one idea I had see if you guys like it.

It’s simple really I know some don’t want sacrifice but I think this is a decent one
Mp

After WD ends all mp is converted into hp on a % ratio of course instead of insta death kinda giving that soul survivor vibe as if Frey took the hit for you m. Just and idea you guys got some solid ones

---

It’s better than what is currently in place but not much better. Remember that none of the other tanks have to give up a resource for their invuln. You just shifted the resource from being healer oGCDs to DRKs entire mp pool(dps)

I'd actually go ahead and claim that changing Living Dead to converting all your MP into HP would be worse than what we currently have.


Invulns are generally planned cooldowns on abilities that would otherwise 100% kill you, which means they will 100% drop you to 1 HP and consequently drain all your MP. This now means you either lose a massive amount of dps just because you used your invuln, something no other tank has to deal with, or drain your MP before using it and risk dying anyway because you get 0 healing from LD, on top of that you will most likely lose dps anyway because you'll have to dump your MP outside of party buffs.

What if instead of killing you, you took no damage for 5 seconds while also being put into an undead status for 15 seconds where healing damaged you.

You get 5 seconds of pure immunity, but for 10 sec after that you'd take damage and healing would be detrimental. Making it great for tank buster and swap but risky to use in dungeons or as a last resort and also meaning healers need to be careful with their raidwide heals.

Why does Living Dead even need a drawback?

Holmgang's "downside" is that the duration is short so timing can be tricky.
Hallowed Ground's "downside" is that the cooldown is long so you get less uses.
Superbolide... idk. There's that little gap between being set to 1HP and becoming invulnerable? But that feels more like an oversight than an intended downside.

So, why does Living Dead need some kind of complicated drawback? There are plenty of ways to differentiate it from the other invulns without having to have some kind of risk attached.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItMe

Why does Living Dead even need a drawback?

---

Legitimately, the only reason I can think of is because it states in Encyclopedia Eorzea that using the move is pretty much mortally dangerous. This would make you think that they'd actually opt to make it fun instead of... y'know, not, or at least give us "dangerous" mechanics that don't outright kill us instead of this. But hey, we've already been over that whole subject with abilities like Souleater, but it still begs the question why it has to apply to LD instead lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItMe

Why does Living Dead even need a drawback?

Holmgang's "downside" is that the duration is short so timing can be tricky.
Hallowed Ground's "downside" is that the cooldown is long so you get less uses.
Superbolide... idk. There's that little gap between being set to 1HP and becoming invulnerable? But that feels more like an oversight than an intended downside.

So, why does Living Dead need some kind of complicated drawback? There are plenty of ways to differentiate it from the other invulns without having to have some kind of risk attached.

---

DRKs identity has been rather confused since its implementation, but if you boil it down to basics, it’s identity is risk for reward, sacrifice for power. In old incarnations dark arts was the prime example of this, making you decide where you want to spend your resources for increased power risking losing darkside, dark arts souleater was the most powerful weaponskill in the game barring fell cleave due to wrath/beast gauge requirement, dark arts power slash was the highest enmity skill and dark arts dark mind was a magic only shadow wall with a very short cooldown.

These days it’s TBN, risking your mp for the most powerful short cooldown shield in the game with the bonus that proper use refunds the mp cost through a free edge of shadow.

Living dead follows this *in theory*. It’s a longer duration holmgang with a 10 second opening window meaning you only start making use of walking dead when you hit 1hp, unlike holmgang which you’ll likely waste a few seconds of the shorter duration above 1hp for a barely longer recast. The risk being the death if not fully healed. In an organised group making planned use of cooldowns living dead is potentially the longest duration invuln of all of them with the second shortest recast.

But like I said, this is only in theory. In practice, the design is flawed and outside of organised groups it is a huge resource dump with potentially the SHORTEST duration of all invulns if cured early not to mention the risk of death being a far too steep penalty on a tank especially when it’s outside of the users control.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItMe

Why does Living Dead even need a drawback?

Holmgang's "downside" is that the duration is short so timing can be tricky.
Hallowed Ground's "downside" is that the cooldown is long so you get less uses.
Superbolide... idk. There's that little gap between being set to 1HP and becoming invulnerable? But that feels more like an oversight than an intended downside.

So, why does Living Dead need some kind of complicated drawback? There are plenty of ways to differentiate it from the other invulns without having to have some kind of risk attached.

---

Holmgang's duration is 8 seconds now, so there is no duration drawback, really.

Superbolide's actual drawback since, afaik, they fixed that gap, is the fact that unless you're taking lethal damage, then you're potentially dealing your maximum HP in damage to yourself, making it ultimately useless as an invuln in any situation where standard mitigation would have resulted in you living. It's invulnerability at the cost of 99.9% of your HP. Pretty fair, honestly, especially as an, "Oh shiz!" button, but fairly easy to misuse. *fondly remembers healing GNBs during comets on Ruby Weapon Ex* Ahh, nothing like a tank dealing 150k damage to themselves to stop two tics of 54k damage. Silly GNBs.

Living Dead's drawback is entirely for flavor, and quite honestly, it's a pretty bad flavor. It's way too much of a penalty, as it always has been. The devs really really believe in the, "Oh it's just advanced play for good players." line. Oof.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anhra

There is no job identity among tanks, its just 4 shades of WAR.
I think tanks would be far better off if only PLD had the immortality bubble and the rest of the tanks had something else entirely instead.

Holmgang for example could just do the snare and if the warrior shackles his target for the full duration, he can perform a finisher attack.

as for Living Dead, i think it would be better for DRK if it would allow the DRK to stand up on his own once AFTER he died for a set amount of time. During the duration, the DRK's HP stays at 0 and he can use skills normally, but drops dead again after the timer ends.

As for Super Bolide, i honestly don't know, maybe something that would allow the GNB to get a % dmg boost depending on missing HP or improved effects for skills that require cardridge charges.

---

I like superbolide the way it is. It synergizes pretty well with any healer. I can keep dps-ing while having the regen passively heal them and add in one or two ogcd while spamming my AoE. I can't do that with living dead. Dark knight's invulnerability really is the weakest among all the tanks.

Living Dead is universally a weaker form of Holmgang, even before the drawback. It's not risk for reward. It's just risk. Fights are scripted down to the second, and a simple google search should give you a timeline for any fight that you like. If you're struggling with timing cooldowns as a tank, you should probably take up botany as your main progression job instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Agner

...

---

It doesn't even make sense from a lore standpoint. Dark Knights are outcasts, feared by oppressor and oppressed alike. It's all about being self-sufficient. I understand how the bit about fighting past pain fits into the worldbuilding. I don't see the part where the lorebook states that we need to be babysat by a healer, though.

Furthermore, there's also this bit from the DRK quest chain:
So as I was saying, that heretic was fighting like a man possessed. Even after he took several wounds, he showed no sign of pain─though there was no mistaking the blood. As the fight wore on, it began to soak through his armor, spreading to every ilm of his body. But when it began to rise and envelop him as a mist, I realized it wasn't blood, but something dark and twisted...

Where's the part where the damage that we've received gives rise to a dark and twisted aura? I feel like we're cherry picking parts of the lore that excuse the status quo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

Furthermore, there's also this bit from the DRK quest chain:
So as I was saying, that heretic was fighting like a man possessed. Even after he took several wounds, he showed no sign of pain─though there was no mistaking the blood. As the fight wore on, it began to soak through his armor, spreading to every ilm of his body. But when it began to rise and envelop him as a mist, I realized it wasn't blood, but something dark and twisted...

Where's the part where the damage that we've received gives rise to a dark and twisted aura? I feel like we're cherry picking parts of the lore that excuse the status quo.

---

Well, to me that sounds like Fray used Living Dead when his wounds became serious, died and his inner darkness kept him going for a bit until they managed to take him down for good.

I never understand the insane obsesion of Yoship for defend living dead as a important part of DRK gameplay experience (the only one with TBN as seems too) and lore while the rest of the kit that truly make DRK being the job it was being obliterated at the same time, i always consider living dead a poor skill that was against the lore of the job apart of his kit, a pariah that must survive mostly alone against holy knigths shouln't have to depent so much from others to survive when they use they invul, superbolide should have been living dead rework in my opinion, sacrifice you HP to get the ultimate defense fits DRK lore more than GNB and don't make it a pain to dealt with it for your healers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Agner

Legitimately, the only reason I can think of is because it states in Encyclopedia Eorzea that using the move is pretty much mortally dangerous. This would make you think that they'd actually opt to make it fun instead of... y'know, not, or at least give us "dangerous" mechanics that don't outright kill us instead of this. But hey, we've already been over that whole subject with abilities like Souleater, but it still begs the question why it has to apply to LD instead lol

---

Does it really say that?
Haha that's kinda cute. I wonder what other cute fluff in there I've missed.
And yeah, your comment makes me wonder if the devs find it fun... or more conceptually interesting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cabalabob

DRKs identity has been rather confused since its implementation, but if you boil it down to basics, it’s identity is risk for reward, sacrifice for power.
[...]
But like I said, this is only in theory. In practice, the design is flawed and outside of organised groups it is a huge resource dump with potentially the SHORTEST duration of all invulns if cured early not to mention the risk of death being a far too steep penalty on a tank especially when it’s outside of the users control.

---

Hmm... I'm with you. I can see the high risk they're going for. But I wonder what kind of high reward we could attach to an invuln? Especially one that wouldn't upset your healers if you're hitting your invuln to drop into living dead as often as possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Holmgang's duration is 8 seconds now, so there is no duration drawback, really.

---

Hahaha when did that happen?
Dang, guess I really haven't played WAR in high end content in awhile...
I'm glad it got buffed. Good for them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Superbolide's actual drawback since, afaik, they fixed that gap, is the fact that unless you're taking lethal damage, then you're potentially dealing your maximum HP in damage to yourself, making it ultimately useless as an invuln in any situation where standard mitigation would have resulted in you living. It's invulnerability at the cost of 99.9% of your HP. Pretty fair, honestly, especially as an, "Oh shiz!" button, but fairly easy to misuse. *fondly remembers healing GNBs during comets on Ruby Weapon Ex* Ahh, nothing like a tank dealing 150k damage to themselves to stop two tics of 54k damage. Silly GNBs

---

Huh... that's an interesting way of thinking about it and really shifts my perspective on it. Nice write up~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

If you're struggling with timing cooldowns as a tank, you should probably take up botany as your main progression job instead.

---

Is... this directed at me?
I'm not struggling with anything actually. When I said WAR's invuln window can be a little tight (I didn't say difficult) I was mainly referring to when using it to eat multi-hit tank busters (also I didn't know it was buffed to 8 seconds haha).
I'm not sure why you felt like trying to come at me like this, but I hope you have a good day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shao32

I never understand the insane obsesion of Yoship for defend living dead as a important part of DRK gameplay experience (the only one with TBN as seems too) and lore while the rest of the kit that truly make DRK being the job it was being obliterated at the same time,

---

I haven't caught him directly comment on it.
What has he all said?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItMe

Hahaha when did that happen?
Dang, guess I really haven't played WAR in high end content in awhile...
I'm glad it got buffed. Good for them.

---

That got changed in Patch 5.1 and was the second major change to Holmgang in ShB. The first was in Patch 5.0 which changed the whole chaining the WAR to the target. It still exists if you cast Holmgang when a target is selected, but a simple <me> macro will cast Holmgang on the WAR resulting in no chain so the invuln doesn't get canceled early if the target dies or disappears or whatever. The one big downside to Holmgang is gone leaving it with the shortest recast, same duration as Superbolide, and it doesn't inflict Doom on the WAR. Honestly kinda disgusting when compared to Living Dead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalaam

...

---

It also sounds like the wounds that Frey took while on trial were being turned into some kind of dark and twisted aura that let them fight for even longer before falling. That's quite different from "Frey took mortal damage, swung back for about 10 seconds, and then toppled over spontaneously because they didn't receive Benediction."

I can imagine it now.
Dark Knight: Walking Dead activates!
Temple Knight: Alright, I'm going to go grab a coffee. Be back in five. Oh good, he's dead.
Kind of anticlimactic.

Where's the dark twisted aura? I'm pretty sure that players have been asking for a proper darkness aura on DRK since its release, like what we get in the cutscenes. Where's the blood armor? Does the damage received get turned into some kind of defensive tool? I mean, the lore description actually sounds like something interesting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

It also sounds like the wounds that Frey took while on trial were being turned into some kind of dark and twisted aura that let them fight for even longer before falling. That's quite different from "Frey took mortal damage, swung back for about 10 seconds, and then toppled over spontaneously because they didn't receive Benediction."

I can imagine it now.
Dark Knight: Walking Dead activates!
Temple Knight: Alright, I'm going to go grab a coffee. Be back in five. Oh good, he's dead.
Kind of anticlimactic.

Where's the dark twisted aura? I'm pretty sure that players have been asking for a proper darkness aura on DRK since its release, like what we get in the cutscenes. Where's the blood armor? Does the damage received get turned into some kind of defensive tool? I mean, the lore description actually sounds like something interesting.

---

The write up of Fray vs. a Temple Knight is definitely written, at least in English (anyone got the JP script?), to sound like it's some sorta mystical, eerie unearthly method of fighting beyond one's means.

I'm thinking the dev intent for Living Dead is just that. To fight beyond one's means, rather than to be used as we use it. Silly, I know, but I've experienced a handful of Living Dead clutch moments, some more epic than others. What makes it feel epic is the desperation, as if other tanks were in the same scenario, there wouldn't be as much tension.

Maybe they should rename it to the DRK merit trait from FFXI, "Desperate Blows." Hehe. Or at least the ATP+ Discount Berserk from FFXI DRK, "Last Resort." Though this makes me think, is it like Hallowed Ground in JP? Completely renamed for us, as HG is just Invincible?

I'll try a "creative" writing description of the last time I had a clutch moment with Living Dead.


The Moon Goddess's whirling fans pirouetted around Clyde and his allies, confusing most of them. Clyde called out to his party, trying to guide them through the whorl of blades, but it had been a pitched battle, and in their exasperation, the Dark Knight's allies were cut one too many times as the Goddess ground them into dust with a relentless assault of black and blue aether. Refocusing her malicious gaze on Clyde, Tsukuyomi beared down on him with another set of bladed fans, and she cried, "WORM!" Imbuing her twin chokutos with aether, one of light and one of darkness. Clyde raised a hand and erected a barrier of shadows, immediately drawing his sword into an almost embrace, cloaking himself in a bulwark of deepest black. Even with these measures in place, Tsukuyomi still rent more holes in the Dark Knight's armor and body, wringing a little more blood out of the man. A little tête-à-tête ensued between the two fighters, their exhaustion and wounds showing. Clyde smashed a max potion over his face, if only to get some of the blood and sweat out of his eyes, though it was also fair to say that it was a reflex of resolve. He parried the Moon Goddess's chokutos once, twice, three times, and then she tried to direct his movements with more fans and a wide aetherial slice with her dark blade. When that failed she burst out a bright reprimand, as she had many times before in this battle, guaranteeing a solid hit on anyone nearby. Clyde was spent, but he drew on his inner darkness, and some of the blood coalesced with his aether, into a bright scarlet orb, which he stuffed into his breast, allowing him to strike the Goddess five times with all of his might. Tsukuyomi dropped the fans again while spitting through clenched teeth, "I'll grind you under my heel!" Light and dark energy glimmered off of her twin blades, and in response the spent Dark Knight thrust his blade into the transmogrified castrum's floor. A seemingly inhuman roar issued out of his body, as he screamed towards the sky, the blood issuing from his many wounds evaporated into vermillion flames. As pure resolve shrieked its way out of Clyde's body, the first black and white aether bomb hit, and had Clyde not been so resolved he would have instantly been incapacitated, possibly even killed. His limbs acted on his intent alone, and struck the Moon Goddess. Another bomb erupted from her blades that she swung out into the air as if they were scepters of a sort. Again and again and again, in rapid succession she scorched Clyde and the ground around him, but every explosion was answered with another stroke of Clyde's sword, until at last the Dark Knight sprang into the air, and thrust his grim blade into the Goddess's heart. She wretched back in pain, exploding into pure vermillion before compressing into a radiant orb of white which slowly descended to the now normal castrum floor. Out fell Yotsuyu.

I would write about how Clyde fell to the ground, unconscious, but uhh... in Trials and raids, if the victory battle is won, then Walking Dead wears off without you dying... which is something it does nowhere else after combat, afaik. At least ever since they altered it, I guess. I mean, it still sucks, but these super rare clutch moments do kind of give it a special place in my heart.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItMe

I haven't caught him directly comment on it.
What has he all said?

---

It was on the SHB event where some youtubers and streamers have been invited to try and review all the jobs changes before the expansion launch, Xenosys vex asked Yoship about living dead being what it is a black hole of resources and if they could change it, Yoship answer with living dead being a important part of DRK lore but they will look at it or somethig similar, i remember it specially bcs i was totally offended by that answer, i was like and the rest of the kit wasn't? the MP management,? dark arts? the whole Darkside stuff?
they destroyed DRK gameplay that did more to make DRK feel like his lore resemble it was and preserve the most annoying skill that have recived the biggest amount of complains that was specially against it.

Why not just remove invulns period and force people to do mechanics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItMe

Hmm... I'm with you. I can see the high risk they're going for. But I wonder what kind of high reward we could attach to an invuln? Especially one that wouldn't upset your healers if you're hitting your invuln to drop into living dead as often as possible.

---

As I said, the theory of living dead works, the basic premise is it’s the longest duration invuln with one of the shortest cooldowns but to balance that power it comes with a built in risk.

The premise behind living dead doesn’t need to change. It’s the execution that’s lacking. The longer duration is meaningless and can even be cancelled out and the risk is too great and out of the hands of the user.

Part of this is that living dead by design doesn’t mix with DRKs kit. It requires a full heal on a tank with very low self healing potential. Living dead as it is would work better (still not necessarily be good) on WAR or PLD who have the power to heal themselves effectively.

If I was to change things, I’d change DRK and GNB around. Make DRK the high cooldown invuln and GNB a low cooldown one. GNB’s superbolide would be a 15 second duration holmgang that lowers your HP to 1 on a 5 min cooldown, it’s straightforward and balanced against holmgang.

I’d change living dead to something like: Grants you a 100% HP shield for 10 seconds, if the shield is fully consumed grants walking dead which would be changed to 8 seconds of invulnerability. If the shield is not fully consumed the remaining shield is dealt to the DRK as damage. 6 min cooldown. All the elements are in tact, potentially the most powerful invuln, with a built in risk and a shorter cooldown than its peer (hallowed ground), with the added bonuses that control over the risk is placed entirely on the user and that it suits DRK’s identity better by sharing elements with TBN in being a shield that you want to consume.

I wish I had a gil for every time a player in the forums claims that Living Dead is the longest duration invuln. The maximum effective duration of Living Dead is 9 seconds, and only when you couple it with Benediction. You die at 10 seconds. Holmgang gives you up to 8 seconds. Superbollide is a full 8 seconds. Hallowed Ground is a full 10 seconds. Living Dead is mediocre in all aspects of its design.

Living Dead doesn't need a penalty attached.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Burningskull

Why not just remove invulns period and force people to do mechanics.

---

This is actually the best solution, as it requires you to ration out your cooldowns and know how much damage each tankbuster hits for. A surprising number of players are against this idea, and I suspect that they would likely struggle to clear content on tanks if this was implemented. You get similar pushback if you suggest limitations be placed on instant cast rezzes. It's interesting how dependent FFXIV players are on these crutches, when compared to a game like Warcraft.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

I wish I had a gil for every time a player in the forums claims that Living Dead is the longest duration invuln. The maximum effective duration of Living Dead is 9 seconds, and only when you couple it with Benediction. You die at 10 seconds. Holmgang gives you up to 8 seconds. Superbollide is a full 8 seconds. Hallowed Ground is a full 10 seconds. Living Dead is mediocre in all aspects of its design.

---

As I said before, living dead gives you a free 10 second window to drop to 1hp, every second of walking dead is time you’ve been at 1hp, so while the maximum potential duration is 9 seconds when paired with a bene the maximum potential duration of all the other invulns is their duration minus the time you spent using it before the attack. Let’s best case scenario it and say you popped your invuln exactly 1 second before a tank buster, that’s still 1 second off your duration that wasn’t doing anything. Making holmgang and superbolide 7 seconds and hallowed 9 seconds and that is best case scenario, not even considering the animation delay or ping which makes it likely you’ll use it 2-3 seconds before the Buster.

Hallowed Ground and Superbollide work for their complete duration, factoring out latency, reaction time, etc. which are going to be universal to all tank cooldowns. You might just be mitigating autos with them, but all incoming damage is negated for the entire duration. Holmagang can work for the complete duration, but you only actually mitigate damage when you're at 1 HP. The effective duration is going to be between 0 and 8 seconds, depending on latency, etc. What about healing? Well, you don't need to have any healing if there's no outgoing damage at the end of the 8 seconds. The boss could be animation locked for the next 15 seconds trying to cast a raidwide. You can stay at 1 HP for a bit, if you dare.

Living Dead operates on a similar principle to Holmgang, except that you must terminate early with healing. The latest you can cleanse this is 9 seconds, because you die when the timer reaches 0. So it's never going to reach 10 seconds, even before latency etc.

What about the fabled 10 seconds of auto-activation? That would be interesting if bosses surprised you with tankbusters and the timing was up in the air. But this game is completely scripted, and even the most grossly incompetent raid tanks knows that tankbuster 3 occurs at, say 7 minutes, 21 secconds, and 15 milliseconds after the initial pull. So what do we do with those 10 seconds? Same thing as any mitigation tool. We precast it to catch the tankbuster at the tail end of the cooldown, so that the recast timer activates earlier. You do the same thing with Hallowed if you're only using it to mitigate a single hit. Activate, say, 9 seconds earlier than you need it (based on your understanding of your own latency, reaction time, etc), effective recast is now 411 seconds.

So Living Dead universally has an effective recast of 291 seconds rather than the listed 300 seconds. Whoop-de-do.

Mmmm i agree that removing invulns will make us have some real mitigation management and spice things up in that department, it's ridiculous how basically all savage has been just superbolide half of the tank busters and the rest of the mitigation skills have to being used randomly to don't waste it despite i barely didn't need it at all.

But at the same time Invuls represent basically with the extra CD most tanks have the biggest diferences betwen mitigations kits and removing it would make feel more obvious that tanks are heavely homogenizated in that department, all tanks are basically rampart or sentinel + shelltron variant and that's it, WAR can play a bit more thanks to nascent flash and thill of battle allowing them to play around and have a more unique aproach to his mitigation department but they can fall in to that mold too with raw intuition and i personally hate that there is no real execution diference betwen tanks right now, and despite i consider invuls being removal being necesary, or desing encounters better over all to force players to use they defensive kits way more often im very worry that making all tanks the same still be a thing, we need more adjustments than just remove the invuls otherwise we are not progresing and we make a current problem more severe in my opinion.

I agree that removing Invulns probably isn't a bad idea.

That said, I think it could be used reasonably to distinguish different tanks. Like if GBR and PLD had them, while DRK and WAR didn't (excepting current tank balance) that might be reasonable if the former have weaker on-demand mitigation and the latter has much better on-demand mitigation. If your argument is that DRK has the best personal shield and WAR has the best personal healing, whereas PLD or GBR didn't (for whatever reason) it can be sensible.

That said, I'd prefer it if invulning things actually was more useful than just 'don't take damage'. Since so many effects now are 'on hit' as opposed to 'on damage' it's not like you can do anything too crazy. I also think having invuln 'checks' as a way of forcing people to do something else might work (chastening heat A12S) might not be a terrible idea. Like saying 'sure, you can pop this invuln for prog, but it's not going to help you three minutes later in the fight when you gotta do something insane'.

Again, all that said I'd prefer we had more tools we could use in more interesting ways with more damage coming in than the way it is now with a glut of tools (usually) and pretty minimal incoming tank damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

Where's the part where the damage that we've received gives rise to a dark and twisted aura? I feel like we're cherry picking parts of the lore that excuse the status quo.

---

Right, it wasn't really intended to be much of an excuse—more just an attempted explanation as to why we rear our heads towards the heavens and ask "dear god, why did you give us this horrible ability?".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItMe

Does it really say that?
Haha that's kinda cute. I wonder what other cute fluff in there I've missed.
And yeah, your comment makes me wonder if the devs find it fun... or more conceptually interesting.

---

Yeah, it says: "This dark art allows the practitioner to continue fighting through the most heinous of injuries, and exhibit an immunity to pain usually attributed to the shambling undead. Though undeniably effective, abandoning one’s corporeal form to negative energy in this manner, however briefly, is an act fraught with mortal peril."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

Where's the dark twisted aura? I'm pretty sure that players have been asking for a proper darkness aura on DRK since its release, like what we get in the cutscenes. Where's the blood armor? Does the damage received get turned into some kind of defensive tool? I mean, the lore description actually sounds like something interesting.

---

Maybe one of DRK's Endwalker abilities will be to sit in a corner and get ignored like usual. :cool: Seriously though, we've been asking since Heavensward!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Burningskull

Why not just remove invulns period and force people to do mechanics.

---

I wish, man. Most succinct thing I've heard regarding invulns, lol. At this point I wouldn't be against them just replacing invulns to add more unique factors to each tank kit—but I say that as a DRK player, we kind of have the least to lose in a scenario like that. Minus maybe the animation, would anyone really miss Living Dead? I know I sure wouldn't miss people telling me to use it when I did, only for them to end up letting me die whether or not I use a macro.

I feel like Superbolide, as funny as it is, shows they were kind of struggling what the hell they wanted to do when it came to a new tank invuln. I could be wrong, maybe it's also lore relevant and they had an idea in mind, but I still find it a bit worrying. I'd like to feel like I'm fighting for my life and the life of my party as a tank, and I don't really think invulns cut it in that regard.

I guess at the end of the day, I'll leave my thoughts on LD here. Dark Knights are given this in their description: "Their greatswords act as beacons to guide the meek through darkness." Even our symbol is basically the blade of a sword with a guiding star mimicking the handle, but we still need to rely on healers pissing themselves on an ability that should ease the burden. Give me a break!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DaulBan

Let's make invulns PLD/GNB exclusive in order to make them unique!

---

This is an exceptionally bad idea. It's difficult to determine if you genuinely aren't aware of how powerful invulns are, or if you believe that the rest of the forums isn't clued in to it. At bare minimum you would make this tank combination mandatory for progression, if not in most content.

I think that if you want to limit the impact of invulns, then you need to address the issue universally, rather than by giving special privileges to certain tanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

This is an exceptionally bad idea. It's difficult to determine if you genuinely aren't aware of how powerful invulns are

---

I'm not talking about the game as it is now, I was speaking in the limited sense of if the game was designed that way. Like if you had HW PLD and ShB DRK, I don't think you could say that you'd genuinely prefer to have HW PLD over ShB DRK every time (defensively) given that while the former has HG the latter has better tools to handle everything else that happens within seven minutes. If and only If there's actually enough outgoing damage going out that the difference in mitigation would be noticeable (like Godka or something like that). Given that right now most invulns exist strictly as convenience tools, and most healers have tools to spare, I sorta doubt that it would be that big of a deal even if healer design remained the exact same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DaulBan

I'm not talking about the game as it is now, I was speaking in the limited sense of if the game was designed that way. Like if you had HW PLD and ShB DRK, I don't think you could say that you'd genuinely prefer to have HW PLD over ShB DRK every time (defensively) given that while the former has HG the latter has better tools to handle everything else that happens within seven minutes. If and only If there's actually enough outgoing damage going out that the difference in mitigation would be noticeable (like Godka or something like that). Given that right now most invulns exist strictly as convenience tools, and most healers have tools to spare, I sorta doubt that it would be that big of a deal even if healer design remained the exact same.

---

...except HW PLD couldn't block magic, and ShB DRK has had much taken away from its kit, where if the inverse were to be true HW DRK would have the complexity and resource management myself and others want, and ShB PLD has all the kinks in it's kit ironed out save for the botched nerf that is ShB Cover.

Besides from your own merit... PLD/GNB do have true invulnerabilties, whereas WAR/DRK have death immunities. Like, that's literally how their "invulns" operate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

...except HW PLD couldn't block magic, and ShB DRK has had much taken away from its kit, where if the inverse were to be true HW DRK would have the complexity and resource management myself and others want, and ShB PLD has all the kinks in it's kit ironed out save for the botched nerf that is ShB Cover.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DaulBan

Like if you had HW PLD and ShB DRK, I don't think you could say that you'd genuinely prefer to have HW PLD over ShB DRK every time (defensively)

---

I'm not talking about anything regarding the rest of class balance. I'm just talking about defensive suite.

Edit: and to be clear: I did not say in my post anywhere that they SHOULD make invulns exclusive to any subset of jobs. I said it *could* be interesting if it *did* work, not that they *should* because it *would* .

I remember back in 2.0 when PLD had all of the mitigation and the invuln and a DPS stance and WAR had... Featherfoot. If we were to take an invuln/immunity from even one tank, then we'd need to take them from everything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I remember back in 2.0 when PLD had all of the mitigation and the invuln and a DPS stance and WAR had... Featherfoot. If we were to take an invuln/immunity from even one tank, then we'd need to take them from everything.

---

Yeah, but that was back in 2.0 where you could use skills from classes on each other. PLD wasn't the class that had those tools, it was the class that unlocked those tools.

Nothing like cross-class Savage Blade.

I want to see a limitation placed on the total number of times your team can use invulns per fight, shared across both tanks. Similar shared limits could be placed on rezzes, Monster Hunter style. You could fairly easily scale the difficulty of content up or down by adjusting these limits (i.e. no limits in story mode, fewer casts in harder difficulty settings).

If you had that, you wouldn't need to make up any convoluted drawbacks on invulns to keep them in check.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DaulBan

Edit: I was only *kind of* merely *suggesting*, hypothetically, as a thought experiment, that we *could* make PLD mandatory, I doubt it would be that big of a deal, and to be clear

---

https://i.imgur.com/BhztTVD.png
Additional Effect: Backpedal 25 yalms.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

https://i.imgur.com/BhztTVD.png
Additional Effect: Backpedal 25 yalms.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DaulBan

I agree that removing Invulns probably isn't a bad idea.

That said, I think it could be used reasonably to distinguish different tanks. Like if GBR and PLD had them, while DRK and WAR didn't (excepting current tank balance) that might be reasonable if the former have weaker on-demand mitigation and the latter has much better on-demand mitigation. If your argument is that DRK has the best personal shield and WAR has the best personal healing, whereas PLD or GBR didn't (for whatever reason) it can be sensible.

---

I dunno man, you're the one putting words in my mouth when you didn't even read what I wrote.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DaulBan

I dunno man, you're the one putting words in my mouth when you didn't even read what I wrote.

---

Or, you said one thing, meant another, and aren't admitting fault when called out for it?
because as written you kinda described the situation at hand we have now. WAR/DRK have immunities, and stronger short-cast defensives, while PLD/GNB have invulnerabilities, and weaker short-cast defensives.

The problem is DRK *does* have the best personal shielding. WAR *does* have the best personal healing. PLD *does* have the strongest invuln. GNB *does* have awful self-healing via Aurora, and IMO Brutal Shell's heal is garbage.