Where is your personal sacrifice threshold?

I'm pretty much fine with most things. I feel like I waste more energy being passive aggressive then baby sitting with heals. If we wipe at a boss multiple times cause we can't do mechanics, then that's when I bail and take my 30 minute penalty. On alliance raids, if someone dies constantly, I'm likely to stop raising them mid battle, that's about it.

I always raise people (except specific cases, for instance, when they did not accept the previous raise). Why? Because they don't get away with doing nothing and getting the reward. I'm doing my best but I'm not doing their job. If raising people again and again drains out all my MP and I cannot heal anymore, well too bad, hope they do better next time so I can keep healing.

I tend to have the same idea than some people here, with a list of positive and negative behaviour, but my "punishment" is not "stay dead", it's "get kicked". Thus, because my punishment is more extreme, my threshold is higher as well. You really need to put zero effort in to get the kick.

And about the original question, aka when do you say : "I f*** up as a healer". Rule of thumb when they die in more than 1 hit. I hate the "healer adjust" sentence but I agree with it, it's my job to deal with such bad behaviour. But I have to admit that I tend to f*** up intensionnaly from time to time. "You were greedy for the 3rd time in a row? Let put you at the bottom of the aggro list", "You are again 2000km away from me during an intensive healing part? let's see how long you can stand out there alone". "You ate this mechanic for the 4th time? That probably means you don't need those 60k HP. Let see if the remaing one are enough for the next raid wide aoe".

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Originally Posted by Darkmoonrise

I always raise people (except specific cases, for instance, when they did not accept the previous raise). Why? Because they don't get away with doing nothing and getting the reward. I'm doing my best but I'm not doing their job. If raising people again and again drains out all my MP and I cannot heal anymore, well too bad, hope they do better next time so I can keep healing.

I tend to have the same idea than some people here, with a list of positive and negative behaviour, but my "punishment" is not "stay dead", it's "get kicked". Thus, because my punishment is more extreme, my threshold is higher as well. You really need to put zero effort in to get the kick.

And about the original question, aka when do you say : "I f*** up as a healer". Rule of thumb when they die in more than 1 hit. I hate the "healer adjust" sentence but I agree with it, it's my job to deal with such bad behaviour. But I have to admit that I tend to f*** up intensionnaly from time to time. "You were greedy for the 3rd time in a row? Let put you at the bottom of the aggro list", "You are again 2000km away from me during an intensive healing part? let's see how long you can stand out there alone". "You ate this mechanic for the 4th time? That probably means you don't need those 60k HP. Let see if the remaing one are enough for the next raid wide aoe".

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You do realize that those that are saying "healer adjust" are the same problems that don't want to admit they screwed up and would rather blame the healer for their failures, right?

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

In 90% of the content in this game I have two choices:

Mindlessly smash glare for the best part of 5-10 minutes straight

Or

Try to keep some scrub alive as they eat vuln stacks like candy.

One is at least as engaging as it is disappointing.

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Eyyyyy, haven't seen you around these parts in a bit. Welcome back!

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

You do realize that those that are saying "healer adjust" are the same problems that don't want to admit they screwed up and would rather blame the healer for their failures, right?

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I do. But I don't care what they think, I do not take bad player as a model.

Everybody may screw up. Too sleepy, too much stuff going around IRL, bad mood, cat walking on the keyboard, what ever. As long as it's not again and again and again, I'm ready to adjust. If it's the 4th time then I let them die as a warning. Which makes the "I didn't screw up" guy even more angry. The cherry on top is raising them with a pocking macro, what a joy to see their reaction.

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Originally Posted by Darkmoonrise

I do. But I don't care what they think, I do not take bad player as a model.

Everybody may screw up. Too sleepy, too much stuff going around IRL, bad mood, cat walking on the keyboard, what ever. As long as it's not again and again and again, I'm ready to adjust. If it's the 4th time then I let them die as a warning. Which makes the "I didn't screw up" guy even more angry. The cherry on top is raising them with a pocking macro, what a joy to see their reaction.

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I think what this thread is really getting at isn't the person that got hyperfocus and murdered by the mechanics (which is how I've been killed more than I really want to admit to), or had some other RL thing and ended up getting killed... it's the person that's dying over and over and over and isn't asking questions, never said their new to the instance, and will often blame everyone else for their failings.

Those people deserve to be kicked off the path in World of Darkness and lost to the void. They are the ones that I'm looking at going "you are lucky that I'm mostly AoE healing the party because you ARE NOT worth my single target heals". Those are the ones that I will leave dead because having to hard cast rez on them the second or third (or fourth or fifth) time in a fight means that I'm spending way more time (and mana) on them than they really deserve. Those are the people we are talking about in this thread, not the noobs that learn or the unlucky.

I’ve played and mained heals for the entire lifespan of this game, mostly scholar, and I’ve hit all ends of the healer spectrum. From being a martyr to being vindictive and now I feel like I’ve found my happy medium. I typically will give people benefit of the doubt with a few deaths, mishaps, etc but that also doesn’t mean I won’t start keeping an eye on said person to see if it’s purposeful. If it becomes apparent that you are blatantly being that way because you know I’ll heal you....then I will. But I will do so so fleetingly you’ll think I’d forgotten you til your health is JUST about gone.
I forgive accidents and am more than willing to help with explanations of mechanics, but don’t take advantage of that kindness. By not participating and doing what you need to do makes what I have to do harder and that isn’t very nice.

I don't think I have a personal threshold. I will raise you til I can't do it anymore MP wise. As I said in another thread though: I'm not a 'carry' healer. If you stand in bad purposely, I will heal you but don't expect me to be there all the time. If I'm tending to me, the tank or someone else and you're stand there with vuln stacks and in an AOE, chances are you will die because I'll be late with a heal. All DPS should consider this when having that "healer adjust" mentality: Death is the biggest hit to your overall DPS than missing a few burst windows.

There's a lot of rage in this thread.

I've never personally experienced that threshold. The only time I don't res is when I know that person is afk and won't accept and when I don't have enough resources at the moment. I don't know what all you people are encountering but no one is purposefully that bad and there are plenty of mechanics that aren't telegraphed well for a first time through.

What I *do* know from playing dps in alliance raids is that a lot of second time deaths is from healers who have no concept of triage and don't bother healing people they've just raised.

As a counterpoint to this... sometimes you just need to do what you have to do to prevent a raid wipe... even if it means sucking it up and chainrezzing and healing another group. For example, last night in Puppet's Bunker at the Superior Flight Unit trio fight, one of the tanks in another group DC'd in the fight and it took out almost all of the remaining group. I figured my co-healer would be able to carry the healing in our group, so ran over, started rezzing and healing the group until the healers were able to carry the load again. The rest of the raid focused on taking out the two units with a full group then focused in on the last one. Not fun, but sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do to beat the encounter.

That said, there was another group fight where one of the DPS was trash-talking the co-healer because they weren't doing whatever the DPS thought they should do, then proceeded to initiate a group kick against my co-healer... which thankfully failed. Needless to say, when we got to the final boss and that loudmouthed DPS got murdered by the mechanics, both myself and the co-healer left them dead. I know it's petty... but don't piss off your healers.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Here's the scenario: You've rolled into a roulette. You don't know any of these people. This isn't some serious power-gamer environment where every living body counts. Where do you personally draw the line in your health-keeping duties? At what point does "I've failed as a healer" turn into "you deserved that, dude"?

For me personally it's a combination of two main factors. Vulnerability stacks is loosely one of them. I'd say 1-2 stacks is generally something I'd heal through. I start getting annoyed at 3, and 4 or more if they get slammed by something I'm less likely to consider the death my fault. The other more important factor is where it looks like those stacks are coming from. If it seems like the person is derping out or doesn't know mechanics, that's one thing. If they're clearly just standing in something repeatedly because they expect me to keep them up no matter what they do, that's where I get vindictive. At that point it goes beyond whether I consider it my job to keep them alive or not; if someone clearly expects to forego the bare minimum of effort in order to force me to carry the job of paying attention to this dungeon/trial/whatever, then I'll toss a pity heal out on occasion, but I'm not going to shed any tears if my next heal is a Raise.

Pull up a chair everyone. Let's bring out these selfless martyrs who'll heal through the dreaded 8-stack vulnerability in a guildhest. The wicked witch healers who cruelly kill their parties for fun. When do you let 'em die?

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I let ppl die when i kindly explained mechanics and they are doing the same thing again and again. I also let tanks that pull wall to wall especially when they are lvling with trash gear and they are not using their defensive cooldowns

In regards to me it is all of the situation, If someone is new to something I am totally forgiving, if I have the mp to raise I will raise said person BUT, the time I become stubborn or to heal or res anyone can be

1 = dps who have the nerves to tell you to heal/shield regen when you are not even close by when the others in the team did got those heal/shields/regens, how about melee dps yall stop being so uptime hungry and eating all those avoidable damage, or blms especially why you all the way across from the map where I cant hit with heal, am not going to chase you down to try to heal you where you can just aetheral to me instantly to get the heal. Lastly people who run their tetters to you or others to get you or others wiped, or tanks who gets you or others cleaved.

2 = green dps bots, my favorite here and I know alot hates when I throw this one out, but really I have many a times do tests with some co healers who again 90% or 100% dps and never helps to res or heal a hurt person, ofc I then panic and decide to sling a heal on injured person or party even if you claim I left my co healer with nothing to heal with when they apparently is making a 10% to 0% attempt of doing it, not one shield/regen, can you blame me? I dont over heal or over dps I balance it. Sometimes it seem to me if I do not hit a heal/shield my co worker will never do it or just when they decide to heal someone whos hurt or tank who about to be tb and am already in the middle of picking up or healing someone else that bene was like 1 mere sec let as you see the heal number but tank/dsp tell drop. Finally IF I do pick up the co healer and they dont even heal themselves they start auto dpsing again and dies again. Uh this make it be where I do not feel to res them

3= No one is perfect but if I mark myself to help you to avoidable things or tell you not to do certain things and you seem to be doing it on purpose umm yeah but honestly this is a 50/50 cause I know even if you mark yourself ps4/pc are total different things so ps4 members may believe they was next to you but base on server tick they actually was not on your end so base on what it is I can forgive or not forgive. Not forgive will be seeing someone with gear , no sprout etc and you see them getting wipe by old common sense thing my fav old good sycus tower with the earth quake 1 hit move the i gear 500+ dieing to it or grand cosmos* do not burn furniture if you got a red flame yet here you go and burn up about 3 of it and find it funny(which is what this rdm did) literally stood in area and got 3 things roasted.

Depends on how much i have been playing as a healer lately. =)
So, after a break from healing there's no threshold. After say a week of healing it goes "You stand in orange? Eat vuln stacks? Well, too bad. I'll rez you once Swift is off CD"

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Eyyyyy, haven't seen you around these parts in a bit. Welcome back!

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Whoops I missed this, /wave. It feels pretty slow here now =(

Basically I'll drag anyone across the finish line unless they decided to be rude jerks. I've had very few occasions to be petty about healing and keeping people up. Struggling to think of one, honestly.

Guess my limit for raising someone though is if they die three times in a row while never staying alive long enough to get rid of weakness. Doesn't happen often, but at that point I feel like my MP is better served just dealing damage than trying to let them half-ass play.

I don't heal players who afk or play ranged that just enter boss fights and drop down to auto attacks/one GCD every 10s or so. I figure they're either super lazy or bots, cause I knew a lot of BRDs bragging that they just sorta AFK mostly in dungeons cause no one notices. I NOTICE. I'll even stop AOE healing just so players like that can die.

I don't play healer super often though.

I only stick to the golden rules of MMO's, if someone plays bad and ends up dying, i usually get some laughs out of it but that's it for me. Said Rules are as follows:

1: If the Healer dies, it is the Tanks fault.
2: If the Tank dies, it is the Healers fault.
3: If the DD dies, it is their own fault.
4: You Pull, You Tank.
5: Pay only attention to People's HP below 50% as a Healer, not before.
6: I don't res you in Dungeon content if i know we can beat the remaining 40% or lower without your aid.
7: There is no exceptions to Rule 1 to 4.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

2: If the Tank dies, it is the Healers fault.

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Yeah... some of the DF tanks are so badly undergeared where they will pull wall to wall and die faster than you can react. It's not the healer's fault when ego does something that requires better gear and the tank dies from their own stupidity. Aurum Vale and Bardam's Mettle have proven this point more times than we really want to admit.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Yeah... some of the DF tanks are so badly undergeared where they will pull wall to wall and die faster than you can react. It's not the healer's fault when ego does something that requires better gear and the tank dies from their own stupidity. Aurum Vale and Bardam's Mettle have proven this point more times than we really want to admit.

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I can keep any Tank alive as a CNJ in any Dungeon. If youre having troubles like that with a Jobstone, maybe you should change your aporoach on things a little.

Also, you're forgetting Rule #7.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

1: If the Healer dies, it is the Tanks fault.

4: You Pull, You Tank.

7: There is no exceptions to Rule 1 to 4.

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If the healer pulls and dies, it is the tank's fault.

Not really adding anything, just something amusing that comes up by logically applying the rules.

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Originally Posted by Irenia

If the healer pulls and dies, it is the tank's fault.

Not really adding anything, just something amusing that comes up by logically applying the rules.

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That's part of the charm.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

I can keep any Tank alive as a CNJ in any Dungeon. If youre having troubles like that with a Jobstone, maybe you should change your aporoach on things a little.

Also, you're forgetting Rule #7.

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Ok, try having an unsynched tank pull the entire first room of Aurum Vale and tell me how well that goes.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Ok, try having an unsynched tank pull the entire first room of Aurum Vale and tell me how well that goes.

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You mean sync'd.

But honestly, I wouldn't take them seriously. Those golden rules sound good, but like most general case statements, they aren't going to apply everywhere. I'll give you the run down.

1. Means nothing. Healer can die to doom. What's the tank going to do?
2. Means nothing. Tank eats a tank buster raw and dies. Healer can't stop that.
3. I died from 80% hp because the raid wide hits for 95% of my HP.
4. FF14's main game isn't anywhere on the scale for where this matters. There are two places where it matters. Expeditions and Deep Dungeon.
5. This is probably why 3. happened.
6. They would rather the run take 30 minutes because someone may have made an honest mistake.
7. Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

You read through that list and make up your own mind about whether that's something you want to follow.

And I gurantee a level 80 conjuror won't be keeping me alive in Mt Gulg unless it's single pulls, and ain't no one got time for that.

Kinda depends on the content and the situation. Like if I'm in something like an ex trial or savage raid, I do my best to keep someone alive or rez timely regardless of how they individually took more damage. If someone is just constantly dying to mechanics, they'll be kicked from the party or I'll just leave.


DF related content is a bit different for me. Most extra damage is easily avoidable so if someone is consistently dying to them I just stop rezing or giving them any extra healing. Usually its just a waste of dps to rez someone who is just going to die again, or live to just auto attack.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

7: There is no exceptions to Rule 1 to 4.

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"Ahh, there's our primary point of failure."
- Engineer

1. A healer dying, as with any other role, can completely be their own fault.
2. Though more prevalent previously, a tank dying could absolutely be the fault of the DPS, or simply of insufficient mitigation.
3. Finally, when the healer refuses to heal through consecutive unavoidable raid damage, the total of which well exceeds any DPS's effective HP even when accounting for Bloodbath, Second Wind, and the like, that is indeed the healer's fault.

When the conversation suddenly steps into DPSes and tanks roles as well, it reminds me of this chart;)
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...550&height=450

Obviously, ignore the very last box lmao.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Obviously, ignore the very last box lmao.

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Kronkhe'sgotapoint.jpeg

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

You mean sync'd.

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No, I meant synced... like you're synced to the dungeon, and the tank is not synced **AT ALL** because they are on level for the instance.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

No, I meant synced... like you're synced to the dungeon, and the tank is not synced **AT ALL** because they are on level for the instance.

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Oh I getcha. Not too much of a difference, but enough of one.

Anytime I get a duty pop for just healer seem 95% of time its aurum vale healer replacement lmao, I just leave immediately too. I hate arr stuff as ast period. Aint nothing dumb to be able to go dirunal sect in hakkue manor but you do not even have access to one regen like aspected benefic. sch least has alqo and if cata thats good for nice mob sweeping provided though party aint full of sprouts. Ty god SE made that lvl sync thing where you dont have to get low lvl stuff for lvl rollo

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Oh I getcha. Not too much of a difference, but enough of one.

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For somewhere like Aurum Vale, it can make all the difference in the world as level 50 is where the first ilvl jump occurs as most 50s that have been around a while (or even the ones that are working on gear) can be up to ilvl 130, while most 49's are lucky if their level exceeds their ilvl. You have a tank that's on level and they try to do a full room pull, it's not going to go well.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Ok, try having an unsynched tank pull the entire first room of Aurum Vale and tell me how well that goes.

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Alright, ill bite.

Let's assume someone would actually do just that and pull every single monster in that room, starting from the right wall in a large half circle towards the boss. Your only chance as a Healer would be to put as many enemies to sleep as possible and hope that the party possesses enough braincells to not slap them awake (iirc, except for Bosses and maybe the big spider scorpion things, noone are immune to sleep). If that still fails, it will only result in a constant wipefest where you will at first, kill arround 2-4 enemies before dying again, which will only repeat itself until:

A: the Monsters are all dead (will provably lead to at least 2 more wipes if people charge right ahead and skip healer res)
B: Party gives up for being cowards and leaves instance.
C: The Party decides to kick the Tank for being a moron.

If it resumes normally after that, it should hardly be a issue with cure 1&2 and rescue as a CNJ.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Here's the scenario: You've rolled into a roulette. You don't know any of these people. This isn't some serious power-gamer environment where every living body counts. Where do you personally draw the line in your health-keeping duties? At what point does "I've failed as a healer" turn into "you deserved that, dude"?

For me personally it's a combination of two main factors. Vulnerability stacks is loosely one of them. I'd say 1-2 stacks is generally something I'd heal through. I start getting annoyed at 3, and 4 or more if they get slammed by something I'm less likely to consider the death my fault. The other more important factor is where it looks like those stacks are coming from. If it seems like the person is derping out or doesn't know mechanics, that's one thing. If they're clearly just standing in something repeatedly because they expect me to keep them up no matter what they do, that's where I get vindictive. At that point it goes beyond whether I consider it my job to keep them alive or not; if someone clearly expects to forego the bare minimum of effort in order to force me to carry the job of paying attention to this dungeon/trial/whatever, then I'll toss a pity heal out on occasion, but I'm not going to shed any tears if my next heal is a Raise.

Pull up a chair everyone. Let's bring out these selfless martyrs who'll heal through the dreaded 8-stack vulnerability in a guildhest. The wicked witch healers who cruelly kill their parties for fun. When do you let 'em die?

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I keep a mentality of "Well, whatever, won't see these folks again" and just... Go through with it by doing my best job at keeping them alive. In some twisted way, people screwing up and taking shitloads of damage makes healing more fun these days... But I wouldn't actively seek to inflict any of that.

Though if there's one thing I can't stand...

As a RDM? I don't mind spending MP on ressing - hell, I'll burn all my MP on it, but when someone keeps dying and says "why you no raise mage" or something similar, I just lose my shit.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

Alright, ill bite.

Let's assume someone would actually do just that and pull every single monster in that room, starting from the right wall in a large half circle towards the boss. Your only chance as a Healer would be to put as many enemies to sleep as possible and hope that the party possesses enough braincells to not slap them awake (iirc, except for Bosses and maybe the big spider scorpion things, noone are immune to sleep).

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If the party is dumb enough to mass pull the first room, this plan is not going to work because the tank will likely be moving around, and if they've got enough braincells to figure out how to hold agro, they'll see things aren't with the group and go pull them into the group, defeating the purpose of sleep. Oh, and because you were wasting time sleeping (instead of healing) that tank is already dead, so now you're dead too along with the rest of the group.

While Bardam's Mettle isn't quite as bad, the part up to the first boss tends to have mobs that hit hard, so while a similar scenario may occur, you're likely to take out enough mobs with the DPS that the second attempt will push through the issue and most tanks will become cautious after that point... because most have the experience they need to continue on at that point unlike Aurum Vale which has the perfect confluence of green leaf and bad gear to cause some really frustrating problems for everyone involved because some players don't know better.

If it takes less MP to Res them then to heal them.

Damage output and/or how close to SC I am and how much MP I have to waste.

Most of the time I just want to get in, get stuff done ASAP, get out, and will make decisions accordingly.