Why is the Maturity Lvl of People Playing this game so much higher than that of WoW?

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Originally Posted by Cyreil

Don't worry, you'll see it when you start raiding.

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I've yet to see any kind of severe toxicity in savage PF, sorry. People just quit when they have enough. No insult, no name calling, nothing. Not even parse mentions.
I was surprised at first to be honest, because of people like you claiming that FF14 raiding scene was highly toxix when in reality, it's pretty chill.
I've seen way more toxicity in LoTA for example.

WoW is more mainstream than FFXIV, and on top of that sticking with FFXIV requires a fair bit of patience. It helps thin out the amount of toxic players, I think. They're still here, they're just less common.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

I'm just gonna echo chamber the person two posts above and say, this isn't okay. The fact that people actually normalized that kind of treatment is pretty depressing to be honest. You would think you would want to create a positive environment for a game so that all players can feel welcome and find a place rather than having players numb themselves to shitty treatment as a pre-requisite.

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Hazing.

This is a "I would rather suffer in hell with my brothers than live in heaven with my enemies" type thing. Once you accept the vitriol as something humorous and look past it and find some generally nice people you'll know if this is their "worst" then it it can only get better. Whereas in games like ffxiv your relationships are largely superficial and you won't know when someone makes you think "I thought I knew you."

Silencing ideas, good or bad do not get rid of them it just makes them go underground and fester ever more. I personally prefer to see people for what they are.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Silencing ideas, good or bad do not get rid of them it just makes them go underground and fester ever more.

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Some Gamers TM rly like to strongly defend their right to throw slurs and insults around as "silencing ideas" as if the world will end if you cant rage at people, honestly I am really happy I found ff14 because it is the first mmorpg that actually cares about stopping that kind of attitude, if you cant make meaningful connections without throwing slurs around it sounds like more of a personal problem.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Some Gamers TM rly like to strongly defend their right to throw slurs and insults around as "silencing ideas" as if the world will end if you cant rage at people, honestly I am really happy I found ff14 because it is the first mmorpg that actually cares about stopping that kind of attitude, if you cant make meaningful connections without throwing slurs around it sounds like more of a personal problem.

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A valid take in response to an open ended statement.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Hazing.

This is a "I would rather suffer in hell with my brothers than live in heaven with my enemies" type thing. Once you accept the vitriol as something humorous and look past it and find some generally nice people you'll know if this is their "worst" then it it can only get better. Whereas in games like ffxiv your relationships are largely superficial and you won't know when someone makes you think "I thought I knew you."

Silencing ideas, good or bad do not get rid of them it just makes them go underground and fester ever more. I personally prefer to see people for what they are.

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I'm sorry but I personally refuse to accept that it's okay for people to treat each other like shit for the sake of being authentic. You can be authentic and be a decent person. Being a decent person doesn't always equal out to "I'm going to screw you over". If you want to live like that, then that's your choice. I just don't agree with that mindset at all and view it as very negative and toxic.

Just putting this out there as well, people will make you question whether or not you knew them in any social situation, real life or virtual. I'm willing to put money down that WoW has people who do the same thing, even if you want to make it out like it's just FF that has superficial relationships.

Also this is a game at the end of the day, regardless of whether you're casual or hardcore, and games are supposed to be enjoyable and open to all, not locked behind a personality/mentality shift. It's cool if you don't agree with me, I'm not here to force you to change your views. I just don't agree.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

I'm sorry but I personally refuse to accept that it's okay for people to treat each other like shit for the sake of being authentic. You can be authentic and be a decent person. Being a decent person doesn't always equal out to "I'm going to screw you over". If you want to live like that, then that's your choice. I just don't agree with that mindset at all and view it as very negative and toxic.

Just putting this out there as well, people will make you question whether or not you knew them in any social situation, real life or virtual. I'm willing to put money down that WoW has people who do the same thing, even if you want to make it out like it's just FF that has superficial relationships.

Also this is a game at the end of the day, regardless of whether you're casual or hardcore, and games are supposed to be enjoyable and open to all, not locked behind a personality/mentality shift. It's cool if you don't agree with me, I'm not here to force you to change your views. I just don't agree.

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It's not really a matter of disagreeing or agreeing merely a matter of perspective. The internet is a very free place and you can easily find niche groups that fit to your personality.
ffxiv as a company values accessibility and part of that is enforcing stricter ToS than most games doesn't mean anything really just means they don't want you to shit on their lawn, use your own.

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Originally Posted by Novae

I've yet to see any kind of severe toxicity in savage PF, sorry. People just quit when they have enough. No insult, no name calling, nothing. Not even parse mentions.
I was surprised at first to be honest, because of people like you claiming that FF14 raiding scene was highly toxix when in reality, it's pretty chill.
I've seen way more toxicity in LoTA for example.

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This.
I have NEVER experienced the level of toxic air here in ANY setting the way it is almost expected in WoW.

Recently I returned to WoW and it has improved but still bad. I dont ever want FF to get like that.

I'm 64 so it kinda comes with the territory.

It is pretty difficult to gauge maturity level, but from what I have seen of the FFXIV community, I think it would be a stretch to refer to it as being mostly "mature". Also, for that matter older players also play WoW. I have seen or met my fair share of both young(er) and older players in this game, that game, and other mmorpgs. I am also only in my mid 20's. The difference in this game is that more players are passive-aggressive, rather than open with their aggression or hostility. When simple criticism, or heck, wrongly worded advice can get you a strike on your account - it makes sense people would be less open. Kicking does still happen quite often in this game regardless.

Just wait until you're more exposed to those areas of the community where you're more likely to encounter immature or childish behavior.

Depends on server and guilds. In both WoW and FFXIV especially in home cities like Stormwind/Limsa Lominsa the maturity levels are rather low. Some groups are younger some groups are older some are more casual and some are primarily raid based, well organized to almost robotic efficiency.

It's something that you have to play both games to see the difference in, and it's significantly more pronounced on the "casual" end of the spectrum. For the more dedicated and hardcore players who participate in higher difficulty content, it evens out quite a bit. But there's a difference in how each community evolves with this particular shift: the WoW community starts behaving BETTER once you find a dedicated group, while the FFXIV community gets a fair bit more touchy.

Casual players actively avoid group content in WoW simply because they're liable to be chewed out for the slightest mistake or even not performing well enough... on the lowest difficulty setting, regardless of the run being a success or not. That game has cultivated and fostered a hyper-competitive community that bleeds into all levels of group content, likely not aided by the fact several "premier" players act like jerks at the drop of a hat; it's quite normal and even expected for players to behave in a rude manner. There's also a strong expectation for players to self-educate, and those who want to learn by playing the game itself are often looked upon with outright disdain.

Conversely, the FFXIV is far nicer and welcoming to new players and more often than not will help them out; probably the one thing I've seen is that wipes don't devolve into shouting and people leaving en masse like they always seem to in WoW. While some are quick to point out the harsher moderation of the community, it actually isn't that bad provided you don't act like a jerk. If you're coming from a hyper-competitive and abrasive community like WoW, it's likely you'll attract a lot of negative attention if you behave the same way many do in that game; I think this is where a lot of the claims of "passive aggressive behaviour" come from, players from less well-behaved communities finding out the hard way they need some manners around here. If there's one thing I've noticed about the FFXIV community, they can be merciless towards those they perceive as "jerks"; but so long as you don't cross that line, they're quite friendly. An interesting detail for long-time players... FFXIV's community more closely resembles that of WoW than it's earlier years (Vanilla through WotLK) than WoW itself right now, which is mostly a sign of how much it has changed over the years.

Anyhow, to summarize it simply:

WoW is anti-newbie.
FFXIV is anti-jerk.

Both communities have their share of good and bad. Here you usually don't see the bad come out until you're doing end game content.

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Originally Posted by qaija

When I first began playing the game, almost a month ago now, I joined an FC. Someone sent me a join request and I accepted it. I was soured from guilds in WoW having been in quite a few. There was always at least one member who was such a jerk I had difficulty tolerating him. In my FC every single member is courteous, polite, friendly, considerate, and never vulgar. I thought I had just been very lucky. But, as with all FC's I people leave and new ones are constantly being invited. Still no jerks.

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There's a word you've repeated a few times in that paragraph - jerk.

For years, the GMs, Customer Service Reps and Community Managers in WoW would publicly state there are no rules against being a jerk. I don't know if that's still their standard response (I haven't played since end of Legion) but it wouldn't surprise me if it was. You could be a jerk all you want and Blizzard didn't care as long as you weren't breaking the rules that were published.

Here, there are rules about being a jerk. It doesn't stop anyone from being a jerk but they're a lot more likely to keep that nature in check if they want to keep playing the game.

In FFXIV, we report people that are toxic or illegally vote kick people from dungeons, and the GM's take it serious, also... SE does not tolerate toxic behaviour, and any kind of vile behaviour towards other players, given that there is no reason to be like that, is taken serious.

We like a better and more flexible gameplay in general.

Also, it is really not worth going ballistic over, if a dungeon takes 2-5minutes longer than what it usually do, would ask questions myself if have a doubt or suggest in how to do things, to make each run a bit faster.

FFXIV has just as much drama and meanspirited people as WoW, it just doesn't always pop up in the same places. Different games attract different people and different games have different problems.

However I will say that FFXIV seems to be much friendlier to newbies than WoW. I was quite shocked about this when I first started playing FFXIV. Certainly in FFXIV dungeons players are more patient. But I think this is very much due to how FFXIV has a huge variety of casual content and isn't as raid-centric as WoW. Because high-end pve content is the only really good content in WoW it breeds players who expect a lot from their peers, even in lower lvl content. Most of the drama I see in FFXIV is very social based, which is not surprising from a game with a lot of casual content. Another issue in FFXIV is the friction between rp and non rp players is much higher than in WoW.

Neither community is completely better or worse than the other. It depends on what you prefer from your gaming experience.

"Please move to the far edges if you have stormcloud and away from the other marked player"
*wipes again*
"Alright, again, marked players move far apart"
*wipes again*
"<insert character name> please stop following the marked player"
^ Not the exact 1:1 scenario but just one of a bunch I've seen happening in duties, and I GUARANTEE some XIV players think the person calling out the character was being a "jerk".

What someone considers "jerk" behavior varies, a lot. In this game there are a lot of people who feel super offended if their mistakes are called out, because heaven forbid 3+ players don't want to spend 50% more time in a boss just because a player flat out ignores instructions, advices or mechanics over and over. When you're in group content, YOU'RE the one being rude if you think there's nothing wrong with "not taking advice because you didn't ask" but you keep being entirely or partially responsible for wipes or dragging the experience way down. But I guarantee most will say that's not right.

If WoW is super toxic XIV is the extreme opposite to a fault too. It's like everyone is wearing fake happy faces and have to either risk threading through a mine field when trying to talk to players or just stay silent even if the duty has turned into a punishment they never deserved in the first place.

I think I read someone say this best. WoW has a toxic hardcore culture. XIV has a toxic casual culture.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

In FFXIV, we report people that are toxic or illegally vote kick people from dungeons, and the GM's take it serious, also... SE does not tolerate toxic behaviour, and any kind of vile behaviour towards other players, given that there is no reason to be like that, is taken serious.

We like a better and more flexible gameplay in general.

Also, it is really not worth going ballistic over, if a dungeon takes 2-5minutes longer than what it usually do, would ask questions myself if have a doubt or suggest in how to do things, to make each run a bit faster.

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You can't report passive-aggressive toxicity and that's what the bad part of the community specializes in. If you have a party of enabler, you're gonna have to punish yourself by either leaving or carrying someone unpleasant and it's incredibly frustrating.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

You can't report passive-aggressive toxicity and that's what the bad part of the community specializes in. If you have a party of enabler, you're gonna have to punish yourself by either leaving or carrying someone unpleasant and it's incredibly frustrating.

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Yes, it seems that way. Like players can freely grief - as long as they don't admit to it in chat. Heck, a lot of time what happens is, players grief, and the player calling out the person griefing gets reported!

Just go to any of the healer dpsing threads and you will see that people can be awfully immature about the topic. That destroyed my perception that this is the most mature community I have ever been part of..I am sure there are many other things, but that is first one that comes to mind.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

FFXIV has just as much drama and meanspirited people as WoW, it just doesn't always pop up in the same places. Different games attract different people and different games have different problems.

However I will say that FFXIV seems to be much friendlier to newbies than WoW. I was quite shocked about this when I first started playing FFXIV. Certainly in FFXIV dungeons players are more patient. But I think this is very much due to how FFXIV has a huge variety of casual content and isn't as raid-centric as WoW. Because high-end pve content is the only really good content in WoW it breeds players who expect a lot from their peers, even in lower lvl content. Most of the drama I see in FFXIV is very social based, which is not surprising from a game with a lot of casual content. Another issue in FFXIV is the friction between rp and non rp players is much higher than in WoW.

Neither community is completely better or worse than the other. It depends on what you prefer from your gaming experience.

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All of this. I prefer FFXIV because as I tend not to be overly involved in the social community at large, but oh the things I have seen/ heard about.

I do, however, do a lot of content. So it’s nice to not deal with insults if I’m having an off day or something. It still does happen but from what I understand it’s not the norm here, but it is the norm in WoW.

I think this game is pretty good with the community overall. Very helpful people and the only irk I've had watching the community is from the Novice Network. I think in terms of kind communities it goes KotoR > FFXI > FFXIV > everything else. Just my personal experience though.

The moment we partake into tribalism we can't have a serious discussion about maturity, but regarding strangers behaving well most of the time is due to the enforcement of social etiquette in FFXIV as in WoW due to how every internal service is third party for Acti-Blizz and summed up with then being underpaid and overwhelmed by requests all the time you can't have an effective control over the community behavior. So you create a culture of free to say any garbage you want due to how low is the chance of getting punished.

Now punitive feedback is not the only thing in the equation, there is the social factor of you as individual choosing your social circle. We are still talking about an MMO.
As for internal struggles like the good old Casuals vs HC Raider triple legends etc etc, its a matter of how much self control the person you are engaging with, you can have a very polite HC Raider but at the same time you can have a very stressed loud mouth one the gameplay style of course attracts the more competitive type.

I don't know that this community is that much different from any other. I will say though in all my years on this planet, no matter if it's online or irl you tend to find what you expect to find (not always, but generally). If you expect to find kind and helpful people you will. If you expect to find jerks you also will.

It's not higher. You just want it to be higher. In fact I've been playing since beta 2.0 I can tell you with a certainty that this game can be worse. The reason I say that is Wow has lanes for the extremely casual to get into. And because of that there's almost no interaction between the hardcore and the casual players. Simply because this game forces group content that interaction is guaranteed. You have to see that.

Overall I would say Wow is worse when it comes to player maturity, but I wouldn't say this game is some paragon of the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

Just go to any of the healer dpsing threads and you will see that people can be awfully immature about the topic. That destroyed my perception that this is the most mature community I have ever been part of..I am sure there are many other things, but that is first one that comes to mind.

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Oh god, this is so painfully true about the healer forums. I’m not going to point out names but their are some self proclaimed trolls who play WHM as their mains that take joy in how many SCH mains do not like the state of their class.

Honestly, I got sick of the healer forums after I saw how the healers liked kicking the other healers when they are down. With the attitude that is, “it’s your turn to suffer now.”

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Originally Posted by BunniEclair

All of this. I prefer FFXIV because as I tend not to be overly involved in the social community at large, but oh the things I have seen/ heard about.

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Every community has its bad eggs and well certain types of content make you more likely to meet them. In this game pugging ex and savage can lead to some...interesting experiences.

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Originally Posted by BunniEclair

I do, however, do a lot of content. So it’s nice to not deal with insults if I’m having an off day or something. It still does happen but from what I understand it’s not the norm here, but it is the norm in WoW.

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Yea in WoW having a bad day can lead to an even worse day in party content. I didn't see bad attitudes all the time but back when I did dungeons nearly every day it was rare to see a week pass without seeing some unnecessary harsh words being said. Most of the time people tried to ignore them. Still wasn't nice to see though. In FFXIV, well, I literally can't remember the last time I've seen that sort of thing in a dungeon. People do make comments but usually there's a reason and not because someone got their knickers in a twist over someone not playing as optimally as possible.

Though the above is hugely due to the absence of a parser. Parsers are fantastic tools but many abuse them to unnecessarily nitpick at performance, or use them as an excuse to gloat. They can bring out the worst in some people.

And before anyone asks, yes I do care if someone isn't performing very well but in normal mode content as long as it doesn't cause huge problems I can live with it just fine. I reserve higher standards for content that demands it. Normal mode doesn't demand constant optimal performance. Being decent is good enough.

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Originally Posted by Jennah

Part of it is literal on "maturity".
With the game constantly paying homage to the actually-good FFs of the late 80s and early 90s, you've got a lot of folks pushing 40.
And a few more in their late 20s / early 30s, who played FF11 in its prime back before WoW was really even a thing.

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Then there's quite a few old grayheads like me who started on the MUDs/MUSHes of the late 80s. (Has anyone heard from Claire or Carneggy or Dirque or Finrod in the last 20 years?) I'm 51 now. Basically what has driven me away from WoW is too many tryhards spending way too much time trying to tell others how they should be playing, instead of minding their own playing. In WoW, you're seeing this even in the leveling process. FFXIV assuredly has some of that, but most of that is on the savage/extreme/ultimate side of things, where the competitives and their tryhard followers live. It at least feels like it's a smaller proportion.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not usually the person being picked on/picked at. I was a hardcore raid maintank from 2005 to about 2012 in WoW, so I'm usually not the target, but I get tired of the general atmosphere, and, yes, the instant rage/ragequit when someone screws up, whether it was a small mistake that caused a wipe, or actual bad play. Gets tiresome to rebuild groups too often.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

You can't report passive-aggressive toxicity and that's what the bad part of the community specializes in. If you have a party of enabler, you're gonna have to punish yourself by either leaving or carrying someone unpleasant and it's incredibly frustrating.

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Obstruction of play is prohibited. This does not mean "pulling (or not pulling) wall to wall" or simple gameplay differences like that, but actual passive-aggressive activities that obstruct play.

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Originally Posted by Ftail

Oh god, this is so painfully true about the healer forums. I’m not going to point out names but their are some self proclaimed trolls who play WHM as their mains that take joy in how many SCH mains do not like the state of their class.

Honestly, I got sick of the healer forums after I saw how the healers liked kicking the other healers when they are down. With the attitude that is, “it’s your turn to suffer now.”

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Ironically, the tank forums had this mentality briefly with Warrior and it was snuffed out very quickly. What always amuses with people who have this attitude is they forget, by their own silly logic, their preferred job will inevitably suffer again since, well if SCH sucks this expansion it can't the next. So...

It's truly not; people who play MMOs play MMOs, you've just gotten lucky and had good run-ins with players. It's literally the same in any MMO. Eventually the playerbase moves to new games, and then the rude people become significantly more noticeable.

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Originally Posted by Shofie

It's literally the same in any MMO. Eventually the playerbase moves to new games, and then the rude people become significantly more noticeable.

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That is a point that was brought up before, thing is unlike the average western mmos like WoW where toxicity and attacks are normalized so people with standards leave for something else leaving only the more toxic people around to make the community even worse, in FF14 that doesnt really fly because reports will give the people who are used to that kind of behavior a strike really fast, meaning it is a safer place for people who dont tolerate a negative environment and thus far friendlier.

I ve been playing on a JP dc and all groups i ve been including extremes via DF were really nice, if someone was unaware of a mechanic someone including me at times would say how it worked in either English or Japanese(Google translate ftw), nobody attacked anyone directly which is the norm in WoW, the worst case scenario is if we see all see the group is not up to the task we just vote to abandon after a while, no insults, no fights, no drama, coming from WoW this is honestly beautiful.

I don't know anything about WOW but I've definitely encountered some immature players in FFXIV. It's not the way things usually go but I've experienced everything from a random person running over to use emotes to simulate certain x-rated acts on my character in town, completely unsolicited, to people raging in the duty finder.

One difference I've noticed is that our zone chat is generally pretty "clean" compared to ESO which is the only other MMO I play. Another is that people are more likely to offer help here in FFXIV. Not to say they're unwilling in ESO but you have to ask. For some reason the community here is more loquacious, in general. Only very, very rarely does a stranger start up a conversation with me in ESO while we're doing something in the same area.

Sorry, I'll stop now because I know this was specifically about WOW and I got carried away about the comparison to ESO.

Theres a dude in here somewhere with the Sig: Wow has toxic Elitism, FF14 has toxic casualism or some crap and its essentially defines both games.

Also if you wanna be proven wrong just look at all these ppl fanning the flames of hatred lmao. Its a MMo and with every large community there will be punks but it shouldnt gloss your whole experience

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Wow has toxic Elitism, FF14 has toxic casualism

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Honestly I rarely encounter "toxic casualism". Every game has players like that. In my experience FFXIV isn't riddled with them. Though I do avoid pugging anything above normal whenever possible so perhaps this is why I don't often see it. But then again...WoW has that problem too in high end content pugging so it's not something one game has that the other has not.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Theres a dude in here somewhere with the Sig: Wow has toxic Elitism, FF14 has toxic casualism

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Honestly when I see people using the term "toxic casualism" I actually feel happy and hopeful for the game because at the end of the day it is just a video game meant to be fun, toxic casualism means that attempts from the "elitists" to tell people how to play and push their performance gogogo based attitude are met with very negative reactions so unlike WoW they cant turn or shape this game into an elitist tryhard mess because people recognize what they are trying to do and shut them off.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Honestly when I see people using the term "toxic casualism" I actually feel happy and hopeful for the game because at the end of the day it is just a video game meant to be fun, toxic casualism means that attempts from the "elitists" to tell people how to play and push their performance gogogo based attitude are met with very negative reactions so unlike WoW they cant turn or shape this game into an elitist tryhard mess because people recognize what they are trying to do and shut them off.

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Fun is subjective.

For many players the fun in MMO instances is in the fact that a lot of content is a team based activity that you get through together as a group. Working together with people to beat content is fun for them. Toxic elitism is expecting high end performance in casual content, which is unnecessary. Mistakes, deaths, wipes and learning is fine if someone is trying. However, "toxic casualism" is where one players comes in and works against the team, say an Ice mage with gear 50ilv too low and reacts aggressively towards tips because not bothering is more "fun" for them. In this case one person is disregarding the overall experience and fun for 3-7 other people playing the game as intended, to prioritize their own fun. Sort of like joining football team and insisting on using a tennis racquet because it's just a game and it's meant to be fun.

This selfish attitude and feeling of entitlement to having everything their way and being carried, regardless of others, is unique to the western playerbase. It is not the sort of behavior things like parser bans were designed for. In Japan it's simply their culture to contribute to their groups and at least try, which is why things like Duty Finder Savage works there. Over here many people don't care and take the lack of performance tools as encouragement to simply not bother playing properly.

Mature? sure for like 5 minutes then their toxicity starts creeping out. At that point, you might as well leave. You're going to see it in any FC you join, group you join, duty finder, hell you even see it in the hubs.

Idiots are everywere, smart ppl can become an idiot at any moment and vice versa. FFXIV doesn't change that, saying " FFXIV is better than WOW " is useless.
And i'm sure a lot of ppl who talk about maturity don't know what it means or will get tunnel vision when something doesnt go their way.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Honestly when I see people using the term "toxic casualism" I actually feel happy and hopeful for the game because at the end of the day it is just a video game meant to be fun, toxic casualism means that attempts from the "elitists" to tell people how to play and push their performance gogogo based attitude are met with very negative reactions so unlike WoW they cant turn or shape this game into an elitist tryhard mess because people recognize what they are trying to do and shut them off.

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There's nothing "Elitist" about expecting people going into content designed for a certain skill level to be able to meet that level. A tank or healer not knowing how to play their job properly, that's probably a wipe. A DPS not pulling thier weight due to not knowing how their job plays? Not likely to pass that DPS check, resulting in a wipe. Messing up and making a mistake is fine but going into, say, a savage encounter without a basic understanding of what that entails, with no knowledge of your job and unwillingness to learn, instead just complaining and blaming everyone but yourself and expecting to be carried? That's selfish, entitled and actively wasting the time of 7 other players. That's "toxic casualism".

I would never join a clear party for a fight I haven't at least practiced beforehand on Summoner, a job I never play outside of leveing it, but plently of people do. A lot.

Saying it's "just a video game meant to be fun" is hypocritical as you're denying others legitimate idea of fun, in this case working together as a group to overcome a difficult encounter, to justify you own opinions. People are allowed to play the game how they want, but if you waste the time of others by going into content you are not prepared for or willing to learn, they are within their right to tell you to sling your hook.