Fix Summoner Once and For All in 6.0 Please!

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Originally Posted by Anhra

From the way i see it, Squeenix should finally discard the Egi's for good and turn them all into demi-summons along with a job mechanic that allows the player to choose/manage between said summons (in which every demi-summon has their own, seperate resummon cooldown which should be, fairly long before reuse, maybe even like 5min CD each so that everytime you do summon, it feels really impactful).

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That's extremely unlikely, since doing so would also remove Carbuncles as permanent pets, which would infuriate A LOT of people.
Also, it's far, far too late to do so from a story/lore standpoint.

Once again, the most practical/logical solution would be for them to continue adjusting them (especially their A.I. behavior), as well as implementing proper Egi glamours to be managed from a dedicated UI window (similar to how BLU's spellbook works).

Although I was an advocate of losing the egis to only have summons, I now more think of getting more summons but leaving the egis be for those who like it, since they don't seem to be adding another pet job that could take summoner's place on that matter anywhere soon.

But clearly I want more summon stuff, maybe have ED and Dots turned into summon themed support to mesh the whole kit back up into two main blocks : Egi support/oriented kit when Egis are there, Summon support/oriented kit when they are out as a "burst" phase.

And not a mess of 4 unlinked blocks as it is now.

My wishlist : (a bit of a revert)
- Consolidate Ruin : lose the ruination thing. Have ruin 4 just be ruin 3, same potency, instant cast, but more MP costly. For movement phases and weaving.
- ED : have it give 3 stacks of primal ether
- Egi Assault : have 3 different (and not two) skills, with one being the dot to maintain. Put them back as oGCD. Using one costs 1 of the primal ether stacks.
- Trances : consolidate & reduce duration (10 secs), and condition them to 3 primal ether used (the usage still counted in case of death).
- Trances way of working : like Phoenix, changes the theme of your spells. Lose the autos thing, have 2 oGCD proper to each summon (but button shared) to use during trance instead. Have only 1 finisher to account for reduced timer, a bit more powerful than a single current one but not to the level of 2 of them (maybe something like 1k potency). Have the finisher different according to summon.
- Add a 3rd Summon. Have each of the 3 sumon have a special effect (Phoenix is the regen, maybe have Bahamut be a devotion, and Alexander be a DoT ?)

You would have every 30 seconds spent as 20 seconds of Egi time, 10 seconds of trance. The Primal Summoned would depend on the Egi used. So you could you know time the regen of phoenix, have Bahamut every 1 out of 2 on the 60 seconds buff window...). You could cycle through all 3, or use the same all the time.

Variety, meshing, not too long ruin spam down time. Would require creativity for all those "themed" versions of oGCD, finishers, etc... but oh well, one can dream.

It's just a wishlist, by no means a perfect idea.

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

That's extremely unlikely, since doing so would also remove Carbuncles as permanent pets, which would infuriate A LOT of people.
Also, it's far, far too late to do so from a story/lore standpoint.

Once again, the most practical/logical solution would be for them to continue adjusting them (especially their A.I. behavior), as well as implementing proper Egi glamours to be managed from a dedicated UI window (similar to how BLU's spellbook works).

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Carbuncles could still be a thing for Scholar (as egiglamour for the fairy), since SCH seems to be tied closer to Arcanist, so it isn't that much of a deal. And if there is a Job that clearly would benefit the most out of Pet Controls, it is clearly Scholar with his Fairy.

Cutting SMN completely off from Arcanist is the only way to fix SMN once and for all, so that it can finally become it's own thing.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

Cutting SMN completely off from Arcanist is the only way to fix SMN once and for all, so that it can finally become it's own thing.

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Or they could simply go back and "fix" Arcanist, so Summoner (and to a lesser extent, Scholar) gets fixed through it as well.
And once again, it's already way too late to separate them from a story/lore standpoint, which has been solid/consistent since ARR.

Also, you keep forgetting all the supplemental resources that rely on Summoner having Egis around (trailers, artwork, CG renders, encyclopaedia, etc.).

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

Or they could simply go back and "fix" Arcanist, so Summoner (and to a lesser extent, Scholar) gets fixed through it as well.
And once again, it's already way too late to separate them from a story/lore standpoint, which has been solid/consistent since ARR.

Also, you keep forgetting all the supplemental resources that rely on Summoner having Egis around (trailers, artwork, CG renders, encyclopaedia, etc.).

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Squeenix doesn't care about the lore much when it comes to balancing jobs ( "glaring" straight at you, WHM and AST) as long as it kinda works out for them, and even if it did, it could easily be explained by simply saying that were capable of making demi-summons instead of egi-summons just because at this point of the game, we have been exposed to garuda/ifrits/titans aether for quite some time now over all those encounters we had (without falling into possession). Which would not only explain the WoL point and title as the strongest SMN, but also the fact why other certain NPCs can only summon egis.

Or they just rework the entire thing from scratch. Also, were disgussing gameplay here so supplemental ressources are the last thing on this planet which should stop us from getting a properly functioning job.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

Squeenix doesn't care about the lore much when it comes to balancing jobs ( "glaring" straight at you, WHM and AST) as long as it kinda works out for them

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As far as I'm aware, WHM's and AST's lore are still consistent/intact.
They may have changed mechanically, but they still retain (most) of their toolkits as they were presented within their respective stories.

Also, about them "not caring about the lore" is a flat-out lie.
Else they wouldn't have justified them with supplemental material such as encyclopaedia entries or "Tales of" stories.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

and even if it did, it could easily be explained by simply saying that were capable of making demi-summons instead of egi-summons just because at this point of the game, we have been exposed to garuda/ifrits/titans aether for quite some time now over all those encounters we had (without falling into possession). Which would not only explain the WoL point and title as the strongest SMN, but also the fact why other certain NPCs can only summon egis.

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Every single class/job in the game develops from the foundations they started with.

"Summoner" is an Allagan discipline specifically designed to counter Primals by using their own powers/essences against them.
And Egis are just as essential to them as faeries are for Scholar or cards are for Astrologian.

They may add new toys such as Trances/Demi-Summons or what-have-you. But Egis are not going away.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

Or they just rework the entire thing from scratch. Also, were disgussing gameplay here so supplemental ressources are the last thing on this planet which should stop us from getting a properly functioning job.

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That's a slippery slope.
If people wanted to change the story/lore because they "don't like it", then where would that lead us? and where would that end?

Classes/jobs' stories/lore are just as important to this game's universe as the MSQ.

In any case, them "reworking" both Bard and Machinist is proof that they can change a job mechanically while also keep its story and identity intact.
And I expect the same out of Summoner in the near future (while keeping Egis around).

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

As far as I'm aware, WHM's and AST's lore are still consistent/intact.
They may have changed mechanically, but they still retain (most) of their toolkits as they were presented within their respective stories.

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Then how do you explain WHM random focus of light magic, despite borrowing the powers of nature, with the latter being almost nonexistent?

What about AST take on Neutral Stance and the cards? Squeenix literally altered the Job quest dialouge when they dumbed down the cards to what it is today.

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

They may add new toys such as Trances/Demi-Summons or what-have-you. But Egis are not going away.


That's a slippery slope.
If people wanted to change the story/lore because they "don't like it", then where would that lead us? and where would that end?

Classes/jobs' stories/lore are just as important to this game's universe as the MSQ.

In any case, them "reworking" both Bard and Machinist is proof that they can change a job mechanically while also keep its story and identity intact.
And I expect the same out of Summoner in the near future (while keeping Egis around).

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My point on this is, the current SMN we got, is not what i'd call a Final Fantasy Summoner. In any Final Fantasy game which had summoners, the summons were not only the flashiest, they also had a real impact, if you played any of these you might know what i am talking about here. The FFXIV Summoner however, does not live up to this legacy. It is a generic Caster that just happens to have a Pet following him arround that vaguely resembles a summoned creature, but the actual Summoner Job starts the moment you get Bahamut, and not before that.

FFXI managed, despite being being a far older Game, to actually create a really interesting Summoner Job, which i think the FFXIV team could learn a thing or two from them.

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...nal_Fantasy_XI)

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Originally Posted by Anhra

Then how do you explain WHM random focus of light magic, despite borrowing the powers of nature, with the latter being almost nonexistent?

What about AST take on Neutral Stance and the cards? Squeenix literally altered the Job quest dialouge when they dumbed down the cards to what it is today.

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For WHM:
It's Conjurer that borrows the powers of nature (i.e. Earth, Wind and Water).
While the Amdapori did use those elements back in their era, they mostly relied on light (i.e. unaspected towards passivity) and potent restorative spells.
Case in point: Holy and Benediction.

For AST:
The Major Arcana has always been the main focus on the job.
They may have altered what the cards do in combat (i.e. damage boost + seals), but what they represent has been left intact.
No cards have been removed at all.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

My point on this is, the current SMN we got, is not what i'd call a Final Fantasy Summoner. In any Final Fantasy game which had summoners, the summons were not only the flashiest, they also had a real impact, if you played any of these you might know what i am talking about here. The FFXIV Summoner however, does not live up to this legacy. It is a generic Caster that just happens to have a Pet following him arround that vaguely resembles a summoned creature, but the actual Summoner Job starts the moment you get Bahamut, and not before that.

FFXI managed, despite being being a far older Game, to actually create a really interesting Summoner Job, which i think the FFXIV team could learn a thing or two from them.

https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...nal_Fantasy_XI)

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Aaaaand there we go.
The usual "because it's not like past FF games" post, despite previous FF games also having their own "interpretations" on their own elements (FF11 in particular).

Please refer to the following posts on my stance regarding those tired old arguments:

• https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...30#post4578230
• https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...84#post4643884
• https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...38#post5132938
• https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...23#post5366523
• https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...78#post5459878
• https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...16#post5512016

The point is that it's not a valid excuse.
Otherwise we'd go down a very deep rabbit hole regarding "what's a job supposed to be like or not" (e.g. Scholar, Blue Mage or Sage).

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

Aaaaand there we go.
The usual "because it's not like past FF games" post, despite previous FF games also having their own "interpretations" on their own elements (FF11 in particular).

Please refer to the following posts on my stance regarding those tired old arguments:

• https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...30#post4578230
• https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...84#post4643884
• https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...38#post5132938
• https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...23#post5366523
• https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...78#post5459878
• https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...16#post5512016

The point is that it's not a valid excuse.
Otherwise we'd go down a very deep rabbit hole regarding "what's a job supposed to be like or not" (e.g. Scholar, Blue Mage or Sage).

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First of all, your obligatory Linkspam post doesn't mention anything new that has been mentioned already in this Thread(some of it even by yourself).

Second, don't complain about other People's desire of wanting a proper SMN that has its main focus (as stated by one of your Links btw) on Summoning when you spout the similar hipocricy yourself with "it has always been like that, since ancient times in this game".

And just shooting a idea off just because it is "someone else's design only shows how ignorant people like you are and how less they care about the combat system as a whole. Every Player that has experienced multiple MMORPG's in their lifetime notices in no time, that the combat system of FFXIV, is mediocre at best since it is lacking alot of things, and a good chunk of it comes from the way how Jobs are designed in the first place. It is not that theyre not working, its more like that they are far too similar from one another and in the case of SMN, the SMN is up tolv49 still just a Arcanist gameplaywise, and some reskinned egiglamour wont fool anyone here.

Tl;dr, imo, if we truly want to have properly functioning jobs then we shouldnt expect bandaid patches over time to fix things, some Jobs need a Operation, and SMN (altrough not a large one, if compared to healers and tanks) is one of them.

We can keep Egis AND add more summons through the next 2 expacs, to make it feel more and more like a classic FF summoner.

Having Egis doesn't prevent summoner from being a summoner anymore ; it was the case when there was only them where they felt underwhelming compared to primal counterparts.
But they added a completely new side and hopes and possibilities when they created Bahamut (and you just have to check the job trailer reaction videos when Bahamut appeared to understand just how popular and loved classic FF summons and summoner are...). And they further expended on that with Phoenix.

To me adding more summons and reworking the kit to dwelve more into pet interactions is the way to go as it is a win / win : Those who like Egis still have them and they are better integrated in the kit, those (like me) who very much prefer summons are also happy since they have them as well.
The only ones unhappy would be those who actively hate Egis and want them gone, but even though it was understandable in the past when they appeared to be in the way of summons, it is not the case anymore and Devs proved it by adding 2 summons, and reworking Egis for the 1st time in Shadowbringers.

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

That's extremely unlikely, since doing so would also remove Carbuncles as permanent pets, which would infuriate A LOT of people.
Also, it's far, far too late to do so from a story/lore standpoint.

Once again, the most practical/logical solution would be for them to continue adjusting them (especially their A.I. behavior), as well as implementing proper Egi glamours to be managed from a dedicated UI window (similar to how BLU's spellbook works).

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They can just have the carbuncles and old egis being just cosmetic companions.

I think there's a reason why the pet gameplay has escalated into what it is today, and is probably not just some AI adjustment, but actually the foundation of that "sphagetti code" not letting them go all the way through with a proper functional pet AI.

Despite us, or them, either enjoying egis or not, if that's really the case, then it's better to just give the last blow on the pet gameplay, since it's nearly that to begin with...

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

Or they could simply go back and "fix" Arcanist, so Summoner (and to a lesser extent, Scholar) gets fixed through it as well.
And once again, it's already way too late to separate them from a story/lore standpoint, which has been solid/consistent since ARR.

Also, you keep forgetting all the supplemental resources that rely on Summoner having Egis around (trailers, artwork, CG renders, encyclopaedia, etc.).

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No thanks, the Arcanist toolkit doesn't even fit the SMN job well. It works well for Scholar though. Miasma, Bane, fester, these spells feel like they were added into before SMN was being worked on and the devs just said, "f it, looks good". A lot of what Arcanist does fits Scholar well, but feel wrong for SMN.

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Originally Posted by battleshadow66

No thanks, the Arcanist toolkit doesn't even fit the SMN job well. It works well for Scholar though. Miasma, Bane, fester, these spells feel like they were added into before SMN was being worked on and the devs just said, "f it, looks good". A lot of what Arcanist does fits Scholar well, but feel wrong for SMN.

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Hard disagree. Summoner was designed around Arcanist first and foremost and it shows in how imbalanced Scholar has been historically for being tied down to half of Summoner’s toolkit. Hell the Arcanist instructor literally tells you how to unlock Summoner once you finish the class quest line, not Scholar. And the Summoner questline makes repeated references back to Arcanists and Arcanima while Scholars only acknowledge it once. Scholar the job and scholar the title are also treated vastly differently within the context of XIV’s overall lore, the latter is used to refer to experts in general and is often used interchangeably with other terms while Allagan aetherochemists are called out explicitly multiple times and are directly linked to Summoners in their job lore. Scholar, the job, is mostly contained within itself, and while it is associated with Tacticians aesthetically, Arcanists are also linked to that in general, while Scholars make up a subset of that group historically.

Mechanically speaking Scholar only really cares about Energy Drain and Aetherflow as tools which are easy to rename and functionally replace. Everything else isn’t necessary. I would like Scholar and Summoned to coexist within their Arcanist roots equally but when push comes to shove it’s Summoner that will be tied to it while this game lasts. That’s why their role has remained as DPS since 2.0’s launch and SE has persisted in minimizing Scholar’s connection to Arcanist in the wake of a potential split.

I think pvp SMN exemplifies the problems with it best. It literally has no summons in pvp...

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

I think pvp SMN exemplifies the problems with it best. It literally has no summons in pvp...

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Neither does SCH, for that matter.
It even has the Faerie Gauge and Dissipation there, but they work differently from PvE.

Any talk of 'fixing summoner' is going to have a lot of tension between the people who enjoy the current job, which is enjoyable, and the people who don't because it fails to evoke (heh) the very iconic final fantasy job/concept people have a lot of attachment too.

I don't think it is impossible to satisfy both needs, but I think it is important to recognize the second camp is super valid even if they don't play summoner at all right now. It is probably up there with Red Mage in how iconic it is to the game line and the integration of your actual summons into your identity leaves a lot to be desired. And even though Red Mage couldn't actually be a healer/damage hybrid because trinity, they did a good job of heavily integrating its identity as a versatile caster into its kit in a way that satisfies that callback.

But like... the problem is that in most games summons are either 'super spells' or pseudo-limit breaks? Or entirely alter the composition of your party? They are mega-iconic because they mechanically signify something 'bigger' than other mechanics, and that obviously doesn't work in an MMO (at least, without entirely changing summoner to being some absurdly high downtime caster or something, and that already is evoked a bit by how you cycle to getting the 'big' summons, it honestly does feel like your charging up your call meter through the fight, its neat). However, even little touches, like making more of your personal spells summon 'stands' like Dreadwyrm Trance does would do a lot.

Like having every aetherflow ability and major oGCD come with a flashy egi or mini-primal doing a thing for you would be a great way to make your big spells feel like mini summons. Carbuncle could do Fester, Tri-Disaster would be a great way to get our other three ARR primals (No, not you King Mog, maybe you can do addle or something you irritating piece of garbage, we got the tech to make job actions visually different based on how the ranged ones do Peloton) in there. Devotion could have a summon associated with buffing show up above your pet so its not weird that Garuda is giving people damage.

And, of course, Egi glams (and maybe even letting you glam the starting 3 as whatever summon you want) because people identify strongly with summons about as much as they do with pokemon.

Its way less about summoner actually being different and more about it feeling different. Visual feedback is huge in how abilities impact you and how a job feels, which is why despite doing only 150 potency landing a bloodletter feels way more meaty than doing say... a 250 potency cascade on dancer. Its the aethestetic fantasy that is really failing here, not the mechanical one.

My thoughts as who is trying to play SMN for the first time:
-While I do like the Egi Assaults (they make the job feel more Pet-class-like), they feel clunky to use to me.
-This is more a lore thing but why is Phoenix the "upgrade" to Bahamut? And why do we have Phoenix in the first place? With what happened in Coil, it seems weird that we're using Phoenix and that it comes after Bahamut.
-Why isn't there a Pet-Glamour Menu yet?

What I would like to see in the future:
-Make the Egi Assaults oGCD abilities you can weave in between your casts.
-I would like more Egi Assault commands. Like I said, they make the job feel more like Pet-class. They don't even need to proc Ruin IV if that would be too broken. I just want more commands for my pet.
-Create a Pet-Glamour Menu (and allow SCH's to glamour their fairies). Then add Egis of the other Primals and other versions of the Primals too (like the Wind-Up minions).
-Instead of Dreadwyrm Trance > Bahamut > Firebird Trance > Phoenix, how about something like: Primal Trance > Summon Primal > Grand Primal Trance > Summon Grand Primal. Summon Primal would summon a Primal version of the Egi/glamour you're currently using that would function like Demi-Bahamut does now and Summon Grand Primal would summon a strong Primal like Bahamut, Phoenix, the Warring Triad, ect that you selected in the Pet-Glamour menu and would function like Demi-Phoenix does now.
-Rename Miasma III to II. SCH doesn't even have the spell anymore, their is no reason for this naming-convention. :B

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

What I would like to see in the future:
-Make the Egi Assaults oGCD abilities you can weave in between your casts.

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We had that between 5.0 and 5.1 and it was miserable, because your weaving opportunities were so strict that it made it pointlessly complex and punishing. I don't think SMN is a great Weaving-Mage (like RDM is).

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

My thoughts as who is trying to play SMN for the first time:
-While I do like the Egi Assaults (they make the job feel more Pet-class-like), they feel clunky to use to me.

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They are a bit clunky, which is just another way of saying you have to wait a little bit before they execute the action, which in most cases is completely fine. The pets are more responsive than ever nowadays, and the delay does align with the "give command/execute order" fantasy.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

-This is more a lore thing but why is Phoenix the "upgrade" to Bahamut? And why do we have Phoenix in the first place? With what happened in Coil, it seems weird that we're using Phoenix and that it comes after Bahamut.

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Phoenix is not an upgrade to Bahamut, in fact they do the exact same damage. Phoenix is just another "flavor" of demi-summon with a different trance system that works together with Dreadwyrm's. As of why we got Phoenix at all, well... that's not a SMN individual issue. All of the other jobs are gaining new abilities that go completely unexplained by the lore as well and I can only assume that was a deliberate decision taken by the devs.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

-Why isn't there a Pet-Glamour Menu yet?

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They haven't touched the system at all since its implementation, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

What I would like to see in the future:
-Make the Egi Assaults oGCD abilities you can weave in between your casts.

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That's how it use to be, and it was not very good. SMN literally did not have enough space to weave so many actions between GCDs and giving so many commands to the pets so fast was making their action queue very convuluted and the actions would get delayed even more. Having Egi assaults as GCDs helped SMN way more and gave it much needed mobility outside trances.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

-Rename Miasma III to II. SCH doesn't even have the spell anymore, their is no reason for this naming-convention. :B

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Alphinaud uses it. =)

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

-Make the Egi Assaults oGCD abilities you can weave in between your casts.

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Some of your ideas are interesting but this one would only put Summoner right back into the basically unplayable state it was in between 5.0 and 5.1 Egi Assaults being off the GCD made the entire rotation and absolute horror to use that caused even the most die hard summoner mains in savage raids to drop the class in favor of Black Mage because prolonged play on it was hurting their hands. Summoner does not need less instant GCD's.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

Phoenix is not an upgrade to Bahamut, in fact they do the exact same damage. Phoenix is just another "flavor" of demi-summon with a different trance system that works together with Dreadwyrm's. As of why we got Phoenix at all, well... that's not a SMN individual issue. All of the other jobs are gaining new abilities that go completely unexplained by the lore as well and I can only assume that was a deliberate decision taken by the devs.

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It's a case of flavor that the current Lore already justifies to some extent. We are able to access Dreadwyrm Trance and later Demi-Bahamut because of the Calamity scattering Bahamut's Aether all over Eorzea. Phoenix was a Primal that was present during the Calamity, whose Aether was also scattered in a similar manner, though Coil goes into detail how exactly that all worked out. Ergo, since the two are linked, it follows that we have the potential to summon a Demi-Primal version of Phoenix. The Light-suffused Aether of the First just helped us pull that off, somehow, and we get -zero- relevant explanation on that part, but that's the gist. Also, notably, Firebird Trance does deal more damage than Dreadwyrm Trance. By 400 potency or so on single target. I think it's technically less on AoE, but basically the GCD bonus damage given to us from Fountain of Fire/Brand of Purgatory is worth roughly twice that of Deathflare initially and the falloff, while there, isn't a big deal compared to using Phoenix itself.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

Some of your ideas are interesting but this one would only put Summoner right back into the basically unplayable state it was in between 5.0 and 5.1 Egi Assaults being off the GCD made the entire rotation and absolute horror to use that caused even the most die hard summoner mains in savage raids to drop the class in favor of Black Mage because prolonged play on it was hurting their hands. Summoner does not need less instant GCD's.

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Paradoxically I did better on 5.0-5.1 Summoner iteration that had oGCD Egi Assaults because it did encourage you to spend them properly. Because they couldn't 'fit' anywhere past the opener you just dumped them as soon as you could in said opener then stockpiled them before you could use them for Bahamut. I actually kind of miss that aspect to Summoner, but it's the kind of thing I'm not married to. I agree the current iteration is better but if I was to improve on it I would make Ruin IV into a Bahamut-specific spell or split Ruin IV into a separate button again, but ideally I'd rework Further Ruin's interaction with Egi Assaults and replace it with another system that has more room to be expanded on. It's fine that they're mobility buttons, but it would be nice if they built towards a non-Trance payoff as well.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

It's a case of flavor that the current Lore already justifies to some extent. We are able to access Dreadwyrm Trance and later Demi-Bahamut because of the Calamity scattering Bahamut's Aether all over Eorzea. Phoenix was a Primal that was present during the Calamity, whose Aether was also scattered in a similar manner, though Coil goes into detail how exactly that all worked out. Ergo, since the two are linked, it follows that we have the potential to summon a Demi-Primal version of Phoenix. The Light-suffused Aether of the First just helped us pull that off, somehow, and we get -zero- relevant explanation on that part, but that's the gist. Also, notably, Firebird Trance does deal more damage than Dreadwyrm Trance. By 400 potency or so on single target. I think it's technically less on AoE, but basically the GCD bonus damage given to us from Fountain of Fire/Brand of Purgatory is worth roughly twice that of Deathflare initially and the falloff, while there, isn't a big deal compared to using Phoenix itself.

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I like that aspect of how we moved from Dreadwyrm's Trance to Bahamut to eventually Phoenix. In fact I really enjoy how things are now to the point I hope 6.0 doesn't add a new Demi-summon out of nowhere and instead expand on the two we currently have.

On the Bahamut vs Phoenix subject, I was mostly referring to the Demi-summons themselves, which do share the same damaging main actions (Ekindle and Wyrmwaves/Scarlet Flames.
But if we do want to get technical about it, the entire Bahamut phase and Phoenix phase still do the same damage on an ideal rotation if you consider the 4 Further Ruin stacks you need to use to get the max value out of Bahamut. Granted, you could look at it in an absolute vacuum and say Firebird trance gives you an extra 400 potency since Further Ruin is not inherently a product of Dreadwyrm trance. But in an actual run if you look at your DPS spike in burst phases with proper buff alignment, both Demi-summon phases will have the exact same potency output. Personally I think that's a more elegant way to look at it.

I still want the rest of the Egi's already. It's been how long now?

I don't even care what size they are. I just want Square to "get it" already.

I thought this was an April 1st thread, but then I saw OP wrote this in February. yikes.jpeg

Square will just sweep the issue under the rug if we don't keep talking about it.

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Originally Posted by GavynG

I still want the rest of the Egi's already. It's been how long now?

I don't even care what size they are. I just want Square to "get it" already.

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Promised/assured us we'd get more in Patch 2.2's Live Letter (back in 2014).
Instead, we got an Egi glamour "system" (using archaic/unintuitive text commands) that only allowed us to revert them to Carbuncles in Patch 3.5 (back in 2017).
So between 4~7 years, give or take.

And agreed, it's about damn time they say/do something about it.

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Originally Posted by GavynG

Square will just sweep the issue under the rug if we don't keep talking about it.

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Here's hoping it gets finally addressed on the upcoming digital FanFest.
Either as part of Endwalker's features or through its Q&A segment.

Summoner / Scholar should work more like Final Fantasy Tactics, not FFXI. I'd be for the FFXI model in the next MMO following this game, but the way they are moving now they totally want to get rid of pets and I'd like to just be able to store up energy for haymakers and summon a real ifrit or Garuda for one big attack. The way I'd have preferred summoner work in this game is more like Shadow Hearts harmonixer, where you fuse with the summon into an alternative form.

They could build an entire game off of just Summoner, Beast Master, and Blue Mage. All three of those jobs can do absolutely everything and they just have to get access to the right thing. Beast Master = Warrior with a type of mythical beast pet, Summoner = Mixed Caster that seeks out spirits and gods to summon, and Blue Mage = Warrior / Mage that seeks out bigger and better powers as he travels the lands.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Be careful what u wish for because fixing a job may also mean "make it dummer"

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Still stand by this

I wouldn't mind if each eggi replaces the most of the SMN spells and provides a different "playstyle", with each eggi having a dps rotation befitting its role.

For example, on a single target fight you would summon Ifrit and instead of Ruin/Bio/Miasma/Energy Drain+Fester/etc., these all get replaced with Ifrit's melee skills, with a single target melee combo, a dot, and maybe a simplistic AOE combo. Then if you summon Garuda, you get ranged AOE comboes.

This shouldn't be that hard to balance because Ifrit could have terrible AOE potential (maybe on par with tanks) while Garuda could have terrible single target potential (again on par with tanks). Titan would have 0 damage potential. It would be the same as balancing any other DPS job because every DPS job would have to go through both single-target and AOE balance passes anyways.

From here on, there could be more eggis that would provide different rotations. For example the Ifrit rotation could be WAR-like, while another melee eggi would be NIN-like, another SAM-like, etc. The SMN can only "equip" 3 eggis at the same time.

The current iteration of the SMN doesn't really feel like a "pet job".

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Originally Posted by Zfz

The current iteration of the SMN doesn't really feel like a "pet job".

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What defines a pet job, anyway? Is it having to rely on delay when commanding pets to perform (especially if you happen to move)? Wonky AI that ghosts actions? Pets executing random commands on their own like in XI?

True pet jobs are just too clunky to actually work in a fast-paced game like XIV. Does anyone remember when Selene had a single-target silence spell? Remember how good it was, trying to get your pet to execute a targeted silence skill while the target was still casting (hoping to god Selene wasn't in the middle of an Embrace)? Answer: it sucked big time. Pet jobs work in XI because being clunky and slow was the norm there.

Pet job means most of your damage comes from your pet or that the pet damage contributes to at least 50% of the damage.

Egi is just a glorified DoT that makes up about 1/3 of overall damage.

I don't think pets work in XIV.

I think they need to overhaul egi's and turn them into different trances and have them summon the summon just like you do with Bahamut and Phoenix.

That delayed pet attack is awful. It's like using a macro'd skill.

Everything the OP complained about has been address since we first saw SMN appear in 2013.

-Demi address the desired appearance and size, which size did cause issue with dodge mechanics when it first came out as we knew it would. Now i wouldn't complain if they adjusted Egi size to say that of a Hume or change their appearance but don't take my pets way.

-Next we now control out pets rather than just set them to auto. The delay is funny in a way. It takes about 1.5 to 2 second from the moment you command to the moment it is executed. Casted spells are 2.5s so really it's like casting a spell that you can move around and has a slight chance of missing Unfortunately it's just the inherit design of the game and really can't get away from it. Personally I would rather control my pets like now than put them on auto like before.

I've post before on the changes to help repair the clunky design of 5.XX and hopefully they streamline all the changes to make it flow better plus add a new mechanic. I'm fine with Bahamut and Phoenix on a timer but still want a visual one and done summon that we charge up too.

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Originally Posted by Pyitoechito

What defines a pet job, anyway? Is it having to rely on delay when commanding pets to perform (especially if you happen to move)? Wonky AI that ghosts actions? Pets executing random commands on their own like in XI?

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The way it currently works, I can see pets evolve to be progammically processed as just a graphical presentation, so there doesn't have to be delays.

In my comment, I was talking about the case where pet skills replace SMN player skills, i.e. they work just like any other job's skills, except that graphically it's your pet doing the animations, so there doesn't have to be any delays. You're not ordering the pet to do something, it's you who's casting the skill, except the game's graphics shows it as your pet doing the attack. For melee, since pets aren't targetable, they can literally stick to a target even better than any player can ever hope to do, by just doing the processing server side and updating the pet position to be shown on player screens.

But of course that means a complete overhaul of the inner mechanics of the job, so it was more of a musing rather than a serious suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Pyitoechito

What defines a pet job, anyway?

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I think this is a fantastic question.

If the pet is purely aethestetic, which it sorta is except in bad ways right now, the job isn't really a pet job, it just has animations that evoke an external character. This isn't a terrible direction, after all in most FF games summoners AREN'T a pet job, they are casting insane super-spells with mega-flashy animations. Making your OGCDs or procs visually reference primals more often does make a lot of sense for fixing the 'visual fantasy' of the job, which is as important as the mechanical fantasy.

That said, when I think of pet jobs, I think of a second character that actively needs to be managed, either positionally or with their own resources such as health. There are ways to make that non-clunky (PSO2's summoner, for example, is extremely zippy and fast paced and does this with pet positioning and resources mattering quite a bit), but in XIV it is hard to imagine them doing this in a non-limited job. Pet management in a lot of MMOs comes down to you essentially being your pet's healer, buffer, and positioning two characters rather than one. I don't think XIV is gunna do that with SMN, but they might with beastmaster if that ever gets added.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

I think this is a fantastic question.

If the pet is purely aethestetic, which it sorta is except in bad ways right now, the job isn't really a pet job, it just has animations that evoke an external character.

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This is what id want for another pet job (I usually refer to it as a pseudo pet job). They could theoretically just make the pet part of the main attacks animations and have it all be aesthetic wise and i'd be happy about it for another job.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Pet job means most of your damage comes from your pet or that the pet damage contributes to at least 50% of the damage.

Egi is just a glorified DoT that makes up about 1/3 of overall damage.

I don't think pets work in XIV.

I think they need to overhaul egi's and turn them into different trances and have them summon the summon just like you do with Bahamut and Phoenix.

That delayed pet attack is awful. It's like using a macro'd skill.

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Like? It's worse than using a Macro, the delay is immense. Scholars, as a shielding job, already have to predict the incoming raid wide damage, the faerie actions having this delay just add yet another layer to that.

I've been saying this... Is not about "Ah I hate SMN as a pet job/want something else/give me olsdchool FF SMN"... It's just because (agreeing with you) pets do not work in XIV because of technical issues with the way the combat engine is coded. Unless 6.0 brings a really substantial improvement to that structure, pet jobs will always be plagued with these issues. They would end up with 2 possibilities:

1) Make those pets as impactful to the overall SMN performance and as interactive as the MCH's Queen - which will destroy even more the "pet job" archetype of SMN/SCH.

or

2) Like that suggestion... Make pets just a cosmetic thing for the sake of attachment and revolve the SMN into rotating through more than 2 Trances.

The reason why there's so many people suggesting a similar thing to that 2) is that would potentially solve the pet issue and SMN would still maintain a familiar job fantasy, of a mage that summons creatures to temporarily aid in combat.

That's also the very same reason why I think Beastmaster, if implemented, will end up being a Limited Job with pets, but with an unique combat system "minigame" for them. At best you'd also use them out in the world instead of your Chocobo so you'd have something to defend yourself/capture more pets.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

In my comment, I was talking about the case where pet skills replace SMN player skills, i.e. they work just like any other job's skills, except that graphically it's your pet doing the animations, so there doesn't have to be any delays. You're not ordering the pet to do something, it's you who's casting the skill, except the game's graphics shows it as your pet doing the attack. For melee, since pets aren't targetable, they can literally stick to a target even better than any player can ever hope to do, by just doing the processing server side and updating the pet position to be shown on player screens.

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This is also another plausible possibility. But it also leads me to think if such a thing (a spell animating from another actor (e.g. Ifrit-egi) > target rather than your character's model > target) is possible with the current code. I know it might sound like a simple thing, but with the wonky way the "sphagetti code" works in some aspects of XIV, I wouldn't be surprise if that was a limitation and the end result to make this effect working would end in a delay regardless.

Perhaps if the Egi wasn't summoned all the time, and for example... Ifrit-egi would appear just with the animation itself, clawing the target... That could work.

I'd much prefer the Summoner ditch Egi's altogether and go the Blu route and just have summon themed attacks as part of our rotation.

Judgment Bolt and Eruption on Blue Mage is so much more a summon then what Summoner has. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Only fun parts of Summoner I find great is the Bahamut and Phoenix parts since they feel great and impactful. The rest just feels so lame.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Only fun parts of Summoner I find great is the Bahamut and Phoenix parts since they feel great and impactful. The rest just feels so lame.

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So I'm curious. What is it that makes Bahamut and Phoenix feel more impactful than Egi? Size and Appearance? Attack Animation? Raw Numbers?

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

So I'm curious. What is it that makes Bahamut and Phoenix feel more impactful than Egi? Size and Appearance? Attack Animation? Raw Numbers?

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To me it's everything together... The way you summon them after going through a Trance, the appearance, the attack animations.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

So I'm curious. What is it that makes Bahamut and Phoenix feel more impactful than Egi? Size and Appearance? Attack Animation? Raw Numbers?

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How they are summoned. The summon itself being big and imposing like in the games and of course that big attack with that huge burst number.

One of the coolest parts of the old final fantasies was summoning some big ass cool looking monster to come and wreck the place.