Level 80s who single target groups of mobs

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Originally Posted by Garnix

Here is how you fix it : extend the trust system to every single dungeon in the game.
For sure you'd still get a few bad apples but I think that a large portion of the people who show no desire for self-improvement are probably not interested in the MMO aspect of the game.

They added the hall of the novice to teach the basics, and even then people were not doing the basics.
If people don't want to learn, they'll never learn, no matter how much training they have.
That's also why even the easy solo instances have a 'very easy' difficulty option now. People don't even want to try learning the patterns of those easy encounters.
If they want to learn, they have plenty of tools at their disposal (Google/Reddit/forums/in-game chat/skill tooltips...)

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This is an mmorpg. I think the game just probably isn't for them. There are plenty of single player games for them out there! No reason to waste resources on more trusts, to that extent.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

This is an mmorpg. I think the game just probably isn't for them. There are plenty of single player games for them out there! No reason to waste resources on more trusts, to that extent.

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Shhhh you cant say that, how dare you, thats mean! xD

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

Just today i did a leveling roulett on my twink... Dusk vigil... nice run overall, not too fast but still ok... But i realized the lv 60+ blm barely used flare, never used fire 2 and spammed fire 3 till oom - wait - wait some more till you got mana - ice. And some thunder every now and then... I suck as blm and abandoned it for rdm... but that just hurt me. At one point i told him to used transpose if hes oom, which he did now, at least sometimes...

People like that get till 80 just fine, idk how or why...

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not to be "that guy" but if you see a BLM at lv40+ (They get their 3rd stack of stance at Lv40) using transpose to switch between Fire and Ice, you can tell them that using Fire/Blizzard 3 will change them. Not saying the one you ran with would have done it but, ya know, the more you know the more you can pass on to others.

Yes ofc, but as he was using that HP to MP skill (dunno the english name) to cast ice or fire or thunder, i was already happy if hed to that... aaaaand maybe i forgot thats already a thing at that level... >_<"

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

Yes ofc, but as he was using that HP to MP skill (dunno the english name) to cast ice or fire or thunder, i was already happy if hed to that... aaaaand maybe i forgot thats already a thing at that level... >_<"

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Used to change HP to MP, was Convert at that time. I think it was 5.0 that removed the HP cost and changed the skill name to Manafont, which is just a straight 30% of MP

Yeah as said i basically dropped BLM as it was no fun anymore to me... but i do recall the sound of it. I really hate how they changed stuff 2x already, not looking forward 6.0 in that matter >_>

*goes check if I i even got that skill on my hotbar*

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

This is an mmorpg. I think the game just probably isn't for them. There are plenty of single player games for them out there! No reason to waste resources on more trusts, to that extent.

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The reason why they put resources in the trust system to begin with was specifically for this type of players, so I wouldn't say the game is not for them.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Why are you like this?

Why do you do this?

How did you make it to Level 80 and don't understand the concept of AOEs being better? I just had to deal with some exceptionally long pulls, and this isn't the first time, not by a long shot, but this most recent one was especially egregious to me for whatever reason.

The culprit? Some MCH sitting there doing his single target rotation with the occasional Auto Crossbow. This is against about 7 enemies+ or so.

I feel like there should be some forced 'Class Certification' every 10 levels so you will have no excuse to not understand basic concepts.

Have it go over things like...

- Explaining to healers that you can actually do damage instead of standing still
- Explain to Tanks that cooldowns exist
- Explain to DPS that on about 3 targets, it'd be better to do AOEs.
- Etc.

Sorry, coming from a dude who just spent damn near 35 Minutes in a Level 80 Dungeon who is pretty salty.

inb4 tHeReS nIneTy MiNuTeS oF DunGeOn TiMe, sO eXpeCt tO ReAliStiCaLly StAy ThAt LoNg.

https://www.memeatlas.com/images/bra...-thumbnail.jpg

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Yikes. That is a major and irritating problem I've had to deal with for several of my level 80 dungeon/expert runs lately. Some equal or longer than my 25-minute Castrum Meridianum unskippable cutscene roulette runs. But none as long as your 35 minute run. I guess your teammates lacked the not only the dps capabilities, but also limitations on dealing with mechanics as well.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

What aoe combo are we talking about? Because your basic Total Eclipse -> Prominence combo already restores MP.

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for 200mp on prominence is rlly shitty gathering more so when your team is wiping out things quick

quite honestly the aoe combo total-promin is kinda shitty after the pull initial like unless ur team are lazy you will only get 600 mp out of it so its much but to single target cuz 1st mp gther 1k-500-400x 3 is way better to quick gather with a decent team

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Originally Posted by Garnix

The reason why they put resources in the trust system to begin with was specifically for this type of players, so I wouldn't say the game is not for them.

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They had to add it, because the game wasn't for them. A big mistake, I think. Better to cater to your base, than these other players. It's an mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Game would be better off not getting watered down further for these players.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

They had to add it, because the game wasn't for them. A big mistake, I think. Better to cater to your base, than these other players. It's an mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Game would be better off not getting watered down further for these players.

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Maybe people like the story?

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

Also, a lot of people can be pretty rude and demanding when it comes to giving others advice. .

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I want to counter this for a moment, because like on all instances we have in online communication, many people default to reading something in a rude and/or condescending tone.

Read this "Hey, do you know you can use flare?" How did it sound in your head, was it rude or was it friendly.

In a duty you don't generally have time to make things super sugary or add 20 emoticons that imply friendliness, sometimes you need to be direct and to the point. So it falls on the person on the other end to interpret it as they will. And let's be honest, many people, esp those who already are insecure or have a victim complex, read things in a rude and condescending tone without even considering otherwise.

I am firm believer that 90% of internet interactions would be better if people did not default to immediately assuming they were being talked down to.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

So, basically, you want to turn this game into a non-paying internship with a training regimen that would make most computer consultants livid at the waste of their time.

Note that your 5 steps would be required for every. single. job. in. the. game.

Now tell me that this is going to be "fun".

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It’s just an idea and there’s a lot of ways to make it fun, just need creativity and adjustments that’s all and perhaps it doesn’t require all 5 steps but some improvements of Halls of Novice and some form of solo trial that re-engages all of the mechanics.

It’s already somewhat in game anyway right? The solo trial in MSQ is showing these AOE mechanics, just not as extensive as with other mechanics.

To be honest, every game has a figurative “red tape”. FFXI had red tape, if you couldn’t pass the trial, every 5 levels you had to solo complete the difficult trial, you couldn’t increase limit break of your level and you’re not allowed to level up. If you couldn’t find the airship keys, you couldn’t use the airship.

In this game alone, the “red tape” it’s there. If you couldn’t pass MSQ, you couldn’t do a bunch of stuff. Forget about the “corporate 5 steps” speak, certification, bla bla bla, and there must be some way to introduce stuff to make it fun.

I already said one of the ways, as part of 6.0 MSQ, if we will be visiting “Sharlayan University” where who knows Master Matoya & Louisoix used to teach (Was it called Studium Academy?).
Have a flashback or whatnot showing them teaching a class in front of a Hogwarts style castle to their students:

Master Matoya: "Now Warrior of Light, show us which platforms are safe to stand on" - (while showing 10 different platforms with friendly AoEs and bad AoEs circles)
Lousoix: "Show the students which skill you use to damage a crowd of monsters" ..... "Great! Look kids, that is how you deal a large damage to a crowd". ..."Papalymo , why don't you show us the next one" -- (melancholy music zooming in Papalymo's young face). .... If Lyse came with you, "Papalymo!! can you hear me?? I'm so sorry"

I'm butchering the lore here, but maybe they can see the future WoL, haha who knows.

Anyway, you get the jist, that’s all.

This is hilarious...but true, then again at the end of the day, people will play this game however they see fit. You can teach them all you want, but it is up to them to make use of what is taught to them. Venting is cool, but nothing to loose sleep over. lol

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

They had to add it, because the game wasn't for them. A big mistake, I think. Better to cater to your base, than these other players. It's an mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Game would be better off not getting watered down further for these players.

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FFXIV's endgame is an MMORPG. Everything leading up to it is basically plays like a single player RPG with a great story, but has forced group content pigeon-holed in a way that completely breaks immersion and ruins the pace of the game.

Trusts are one of the best things they've ever added to this game. They're badly needed in 1-70 content as well.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

They had to add it, because the game wasn't for them. A big mistake, I think. Better to cater to your base, than these other players. It's an mmorpg, not a single player rpg. Game would be better off not getting watered down further for these players.

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True. And no it doesnt help you like the story but not the game around it - its like saying "i like F1 cars are really nice but i dont want them to move thats boring..." omg yes its late and im not gettin a better analogy atm xD

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

True. And no it doesnt help you like the story but not the game around it - its like saying "i like F1 cars are really nice but i dont want them to move thats boring..." omg yes its late and im not gettin a better analogy atm xD

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Maybe I like the game around it, I just don't want to have to wait for duty finder to find people?

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

FFXIV's endgame is an MMORPG. Everything leading up to it is basically plays like a single player RPG with a great story, but has forced group content pigeon-holed in a way that completely breaks immersion and ruins the pace of the game.

Trusts are one of the best things they've ever added to this game. They're badly needed in 1-70 content as well.

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Yeah, I don't see the issue with Trusts. Heck, I've been using them for my first time in every Shadowbringers dungeon so far that has had them available. It allows me to enjoy the dungeon at my own pace and it's nice to enjoy them with the story NPCs since they are usually for the, you know, story. After that...to the duty finder I go where I pull wall to wall and try to speed things up for everyone's benefit.

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Originally Posted by AncientWillow

for 200mp on prominence is rlly shitty gathering more so when your team is wiping out things quick

quite honestly the aoe combo total-promin is kinda shitty after the pull initial like unless ur team are lazy you will only get 600 mp out of it so its much but to single target cuz 1st mp gther 1k-500-400x 3 is way better to quick gather with a decent team

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But Prominence gives +500 MP...

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Originally Posted by AncientWillow

for 200mp on prominence is rlly shitty gathering more so when your team is wiping out things quick

quite honestly the aoe combo total-promin is kinda shitty after the pull initial like unless ur team are lazy you will only get 600 mp out of it so its much but to single target cuz 1st mp gther 1k-500-400x 3 is way better to quick gather with a decent team

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Prominence is 500 mp or 250 mp per gcd 2 step combo (which is enough to fully restore your MP between Requiescat bursts when combined with natural regen and Spirits Within) while doing 170 potency per target (1020 against 6 targets) versus the ~366 MP and 450 per gcd of Royal Authority+Atonement. The single target rotation actually overgenerates MP in order to compensate for any time you need to disengage with a boss.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Would 1 job per role make this less of an issue to you? All of this is hypothetical anyways and more than likely will never get in the game, but I can tell you with certainty that some people NEED something like this or they'll be forever stuck in their ways.

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It simply won't happen. Best is to let people know. They have stated time and time again the game is designed for the casual player =/

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Originally Posted by van_arn

The real question is why you tolerate people using single-target abilities on packs in a level 80 dungeon. Kick those people. They’re not new.

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Because 9/10 time another party member will berate me for using the kick feature, often saying something along the lines of "bUt KiCkiNg iS mEaN"

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

OP states " Explain to DPS that on about 3 targets, it'd be better to do AOEs". This is wrong. It's better to do single target rotations on very small pulls consisting of 3 or less because you can burst down them faster then using some weak AoE skills. Single target rotations of course have higher DMG potency than AoE.

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the only class where ST is a gain over AoE in the 3+ range is monk. and even then it's a mixed rotation, as at 3 you want to use Arm of the Destroyer every Opo-opo GCD (unless you have a Leaden up from the last enemy), Four-Point every Raptor GCD, and Demolish each enemy in turn. At 4+ Rockbreaker beats spreading Demolish. And for your example of MCH, Bioblaster is better than Drill at 2, Flamethrower is for 3+, Auto Crossbow is better than Heat Blast at 3, and Spreadshot is better than Heated combo at 3.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

So, is this considered kick abuse if I was to kick someone who was vastly underperforming? Is there any sort of precedent where SQ has allowed this? I mean, it's something I can certainly do or try, but I would want to stay in the green.

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If they were holding back the group's progress, aka keeping the group stuck in one spot for x amount of time, then there is nothing wrong with it according to the ToS. I've initiated a kick a couple times for that reason in the 8 or so years I've been playing. Otherwise it comes down to a "difference of playstyles" which is a bit of a gray area. I suppose one could make the argument that another person's underperformance was causing someone "emotional distress" (causing emotional distress is a ToS violation) but that's a stretch and a half. I'm sure someone somewhere has tried it though. I can happily say that the amount of times I've initiated a vote to kick for anything could be counted on one hand.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

If they were holding back the group's progress, aka keeping the group stuck in one spot for x amount of time, then there is nothing wrong with it according to the ToS. I've initiated a kick a couple times for that reason in the 8 or so years I've been playing. Otherwise it comes down to a "difference of playstyles" which is a bit of a gray area. I suppose one could make the argument that another person's underperformance was causing someone "emotional distress" (causing emotional distress is a ToS violation) but that's a stretch and a half. I'm sure someone somewhere has tried it though. I can happily say that the amount of times I've initiated a vote to kick for anything could be counted on one hand.

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For all my big talk on these forums in the past, the only time I've ever actually initiated a kick on someone was when they were DCed. Otherwise I just let it be. :(

I am all for kicking players that do not gel with the group. Think it is better for everyone if players that do not get along very well for whatever reason do not have to play with one another.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

If they were holding back the group's progress, aka keeping the group stuck in one spot for x amount of time, then there is nothing wrong with it according to the ToS. I've initiated a kick a couple times for that reason in the 8 or so years I've been playing. Otherwise it comes down to a "difference of playstyles" which is a bit of a gray area. I suppose one could make the argument that another person's underperformance was causing someone "emotional distress" (causing emotional distress is a ToS violation) but that's a stretch and a half. I'm sure someone somewhere has tried it though. I can happily say that the amount of times I've initiated a vote to kick for anything could be counted on one hand.

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Just by current ToS if three out of four members want to play in a certain way and the other don't adapt could be considered "imposing your playstyle" and is a violation of said ToS. At the same time, if before initiating a vote kick I asked/requested "Use your AoE rotation please." the kicked player can report me for the same violation.

It's the problem with such a vague ToS, at the end is about who bother to report or report first.

Anyway, on topic: after SB changes there is zero reason to not use your AoE rotation, in most cases is even simplier than the single target one.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

So, is this considered kick abuse if I was to kick someone who was vastly underperforming? Is there any sort of precedent where SQ has allowed this? I mean, it's something I can certainly do or try, but I would want to stay in the green.

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All long as someone else agrees with you, as long as you didn’t insult the other player, kick away.

If they refuse to listen to advice and the party successfully voted for them to leave, they were the one attempting to impose their playstyle on 3 other people.

If someone gets kicked and their buddy has a cry, the person that agreed with you can silently kick them to resolve the issue before it becomes drama or you can leave without penalty as there is no longer a full group.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Just by current ToS if three out of four members want to play in a certain way and the other don't adapt could be considered "imposing your playstyle" and is a violation of said ToS. At the same time, if before initiating a vote kick I asked/requested "Use your AoE rotation please." the kicked player can report me for the same violation.

It's the problem with such a vague ToS, at the end is about who bother to report or report first.

Anyway, on topic: after SB changes there is zero reason to not use your AoE rotation, in most cases is even simplier than the single target one.

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Hmm agree it is vague but let’s take a look at the definition of “impose”

Impose:
1. To force (an unwelcome decision or ruling) on someone.
a. put (a restriction) in place.
b. require (a duty, charge, or penalty) to be undertaken or paid. "a fine may be imposed"
c. exert firm control over.

2. take advantage of someone by demanding their attention or commitment.

I think the keywords here are "an unwelcome decision", "exert firm control", and "take advantage of someone".
Ok so for the scenario if a tank that doesn't pull wall-to-wall. Does he fulfill the keywords above? Is he exerting firm control and taking advantage of someone? Or maybe he's just playing the game?

For the scenario, if we say “use your AoE”, and the person did it, then it’s not imposing. But if he resisted, and documented via chat, “No i dont play that way”, then it’s an unwelcome decision already.

But if he doesn't reply, then can we really conclude anything? Could be the person does not even read chat, or does not know that the blue chat there is directed towards him, could be that he thought you guys were NPC instead of real players (yes, this is a common misunderstanding for new MMO players, young ones especially, they cannot tell who's NPC who's not). Did any part of the game teach him that the blue chat is party chat and it's directed towards him? Things like this comes into play.

I guess every case will be on a case-by-case basis.

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Originally Posted by Hycinthus

It is vague but let’s take a look at the definition of “impose”

Impose:
1. To force (an unwelcome decision or ruling) on someone.

So perhaps, if we say “use your AoE”, and the person did it, then it’s not imposing. But if he resisted, and documented via chat, “No i dont play that way”, then it’s an unwelcome decision already.

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And the same could be said in reverse about imposing a playstyle, since the person not wanting to AoE is imposing their playstyle on 3 other people. There's a lot of room open for interpretation, really. Context is everything though.

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Originally Posted by Hycinthus

It is vague but let’s take a look at the definition of “impose”

Impose:
1. To force (an unwelcome decision or ruling) on someone.

So perhaps, if we say “use your AoE”, and the person did it, then it’s not imposing. But if he resisted, and documented via chat, “No i dont play that way”, then it’s an unwelcome decision already.

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That would be the assumption but then you can also kick someone for "difference of playstyle" which throws a wrench into the whole thing because I would consider "refusing to use aoes" as a "difference in playstyle". This is the issue with such a vague ToS, which of the two takes priority here? Do both apply? And what would be the GM judgement if you were reported for it?

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

That would be the assumption but then you can also kick someone for "difference of playstyle" which throws a wrench into the whole thing because I would consider "refusing to use aoes" as a "difference in playstyle". This is the issue with such a vague ToS, which of the two takes priority here? Do both apply? And what would be the GM judgement if you were reported for it?

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Sorry I edited my comment before your reply, I added more definition of imposing:

c. exert firm control over.

2. take advantage of someone by demanding their attention or commitment.

Does it also exerting firm control over and taking advantage of someone?

Anyway yes, not here to argue about ToS. Totally agree about the gray area, but I think the gray area might be there so SE can just take a look on a case-by-case basis and have leverage on what should be covered.

I think the "spirit" of the policy is to prevent harassment.

I did actually miss remember the exact wording:

- ・Expressions that compel a playing style

Meaning even asking nicely could be consider "Nuisance behaviour" (means speech or behaviour that hurts others or obstructs game play, but which is not classified as harassment. Even if it was not the intention, a penalty may be imposed if the end result was that another person was hurt or obstructed).

But then we can find this:

・Other obstruction of play
This means all other behaviour that deliberately obstructs another person's game play by some means.

I argue that refusing to AoE when everyone else is on board can apply to "Other obstruction of play"

As I said before is a big mess and a lot of situations are about "who report" or "who report first". Even two of the typical ones: healers not wanting to DPS and tank ignore what the rest of the group want (mass pulling or single pulling), can be argue from both sides and everyone involved could theoretical be sanctioned.


Here is the link if anyone want to give it a full read (if you haven't done it already you should): https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&kid=68216

There are some DPS out there that Alisaie legit looks like a pink percentile player. I had a level 80 dungeon yesterday where the DRG was only attacking one target in each pull. To add salt to the injury, they were screwing up their single target rotation completely because I was generating more aggro in DRG's only target spamming quick nocks and rains of death. It was so depressing it was almost worth recording.

I do agree you should 100 percent use aoes.

But it is a bit concerning that someone told me off for not spreadshotting a bunch of trash that I’d almost solo killed, because I instead used air anchor to get 20 guage so I could throw the queen out early on the upcoming boss.

Unless you know the ins and outs of the class and why someone might not be aoeing I don’t think you should really call them out. Trash is a fantastic way to build gauges/CDs, and it’s funny when someone gets all elitist because you do it, when they’re half as good as you.

There is no duty in-game that forces people to use AoE in order to clear it.

MSQ and/or Job quests should have a duty where you need to kill a group of mobs ASAP. These mobs have very low HP & attack, you can kill them easily by using your AoE combo 2 or 3 times. If you don't kill the mobs in 20s or less, they enrage and the duty fails.

The development team needs to start introducing duties that help the player base improve their gameplay.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Well, in that case, wouldn't it be the one off ability? Air Anchor/Hot Shot has its own separate CD. Yeah, if you're getting called out for doing that, then the person calling you out doesn't get what's up.

I'd really feel meh about someone if they just sat there doing their Slug Shot roto while there's 10 dudes on the tank, not just normal class gameplay.

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Mhmm, one off ability and someone said ‘wtf aoe MCH’ or something to that extent lol.

Not using AOE is a valid concern overall though. There’s just times where it may be viable to single target.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

There is no duty in-game that forces people to use AoE in order to clear it.

MSQ and/or Job quests should have a duty where you need to kill a group of mobs ASAP. These mobs have very low HP & attack, you can kill them easily by using your AoE combo 2 or 3 times. If you don't kill the mobs in 20s or less, they enrage and the duty fails.

The development team needs to start introducing duties that help the player base improve their gameplay.

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Seeing how the jobs get their first spammable AoE at different levels, the best option would imo be during job quests. Otherwise, you'd need to wait for quest level 40+ until DRG and WHM gets their first spammable AoE attack, which may or may not be too "late" for some avid learners (or frustrated vets ;) ).

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Originally Posted by Mahoukenshi

Seeing how the jobs get their first spammable AoE at different levels, the best option would imo be during job quests. Otherwise, you'd need to wait for quest level 40+ until DRG and WHM gets their first spammable AoE attack, which may or may not be too "late" for some avid learners (or frustrated vets ;) ).

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They are most likely not going to go back and change their old quests, but hoping for the future MSQ and job quests.

Whilst I do agree, you should be AoE'n mobs, but if you don't like it; and aren't willing to be part of a solution in some way, shape, or form. Then I'll say what I always have, make some friends and go in as a premade, or partial static.