Allow me to correct you on that, "Blue Mages focus on Blue Magic, a special subset of magic that uses attacks otherwise exclusive to enemies. Blue Mages often have a wide range of usefulness due to the varied spells they gain." There are all kinds of spells they learn from the weakest to the strongest but the main key point of Blue Mage is the usefulness in a variety of situation meaning it is adaptable. 'True Blue Mage' can be easily solved as Blue Mage follow 2 core identities. They learn from monster spells and will use these spells depending on the situation and they are Versatile including equipment wise (However this cannot be applied to FFXIV since each class has its own specific weapon and share the same gear set at end game but they have their own relic armor). There is nothing about it being overpowered is a requirement. As for the versatility I'll get more onto that later in the post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
I would agree, however I just think they could do more than just tanking. Granted what we have right now isn't the best option for it to be able to tank but it has a high DPS output, maybe in 5.4 we'll get more for tanking and healing. If this is the case about preventing Blue Mage from abusing the role system there is already a solution for that. Leaving Aetherial Mimicry at level 60, forcing the Blue Mages to be DPS role in earlier levels then at Level 60. It is foolproof had they not made it level by letting it get carried by friends, because now people can simply obtain it and not even have the necessary skills to fully utilize Aetherial mimicry or even the role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
Honestly it is better off as a Normal Job with some of the functionalities from the Limited Job. What they have right now is a great foundation for a Blue Mage to become a normal job namely because of the way you can pick and choose skills. In previous FF games we could only have a set of skills and we are stuck with all of them throughout and that is the point of it in a single player game to be like a collectible and the need for swapping them out is not necessary. However in FFXI they introduce Blue Mage in a MMO setting and it worked, they are overpowered but so is every other class with the right gear set, since that game solely relies on you having that BiS for your job. If what could be done in FFXI works then FFXIV just need to take inspiration from it and in this case they did (excluding the level requirement for spells where you have to be at a certain level to use a specific Blue Mage spell and the point limit system where each spell costs different amount of point but overall there is 20 Spells Slots and 80 points is the limit).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
I... STRONGLY DISAGREE! Mainly because we now live in a time where everyone has a job in real life and I'll explain later. We can do something like Star Wars the Old Republic did and have Flashpoint where no matter what the roles are, all roles are neutral and the way to heal is through interacting with a glowing blue tank in a boss fight or when out of combat channel your heals. We can do the same with FFXIV except with potions, but that means people are now forced to pick up Alchemist and buy or craft HQ potions. We can still go with the interacting with the environment route, but I doubt some people will actually go and interact with it just so they can try and keep their DPS high and that only applies to dungeons. What about raids and trials? Ones specifically using Tanks and Healers Limit Breaks. There is a reason why Modern MMOs have the trinity role and that is because Duty Finder or similar systems like it even before duty finder are the main reason for the roles to easily identify who is playing what job. It is a major time saver, back then you had to shout for a group invite (In other MMOs not FFXIV) for just about anything including farming dungeons just to level and sometimes even when you shout literally right after they say it they reply 'sorry but spot is taken'. Hence why we MMOs nowadays have the Duty Finder these days everyone gets a slot. As for kit building, why not both. You can still have the kit building and the roles at the same time. It works with some other MMOs so you can apply it to FFXIV. However FFXIV isn’t about kit building, if you’re referring to FFXI then only Puppetmaster, Blue Mage are building their own Mod kit and Spell kit respectively. The other kit building is gear and in FFXI gear gives additional bonuses with different variety of stats being used. It may not work in FFXIV mainly because of the way we have gear now. We are doing BiS for Substats and the main stats materia are now useless even elemental materia. Overall it is better to keep the trinity as is and for any future content of sorts since it allows a much easier and convenient time for people to queue for certain activities. Don’t force others to use Party Finder if they don’t want to, in which SE tried doing so with Blue Mage. It is better if Blue Mage has both option than 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
SUGGESTION: Turn Bluemage into a regular job - Limited Job>Advanced Job (An Approach)
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10-27-2020, 11:40 AMTeraTyrantShadic
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10-27-2020, 12:51 PMShougunOh yeah I wasn't going for full depth, I mean I see two comments on this now that read the same so I might have misunderstood the most common understanding of stereotypically but when I hear it.. I assume "vaguely speaking". So.. mostly true is like "yeah that's what I was going for!" lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaraD_
The main reason I bothered to go stereotypically was just to say if we were searching for roles I don't think blue has to be "all", in a general sense I think blue is just a really funky damage support. I know the accuracy is a crappy sort of mostly true sense (' stereotype ').
Like when you talk about a country stereotypically, it's kind of true but you know not really always :P. It was just a macro discussion of blue mage's role. I was only talking that I think it would have been fine if blue mage was just a damage support, well like it was fine in FFXI that he was just damage.
People are allowed to want more from him, to expand certain concepts or whatever, but "stereotypically" he's a sort of damage support. "vaguely speaking" :P.
I wanted to dispell the strict requirements people usually put on blue, well except learning from monsters and using monster magic.. that's pretty much required. If blue does those two things then the rest of it is really kind of whatever... and it's a blue mage (even if I or others don't.. or do.. like it).
Naturally I agree, supporting argument to why Blue would have been a decent concept as built for tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaraD_
Does it count that I was one of the first to suggest the concept not only in the beginning release of FFXIV but also near ARR's beta? At the time of ARR's beta to be honest I didn't say flipping job stone, that's something that come more recently, but I did suggest the job was both a side content and a normal job (in response to Yoshida saying he wants it to be a mini game toy box like content). This was back when there were like three people talking about blue mage ... XD.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaraD_
Yeah of course everyone will create something different but blue mage's skills, many of the weird ones even, have some sort of parallel to other jobs, and some of those weird skills also could feasibly exist in this game as a balanced concept so long as you tweak some aspects... that we both agree on, I bet, that they've already tweaked in some ways (like our doom hardly works on most important targets anyways! if anything it would be nice if doom did something to the targets it normally failed on.. cause failing and missing is kind of "oof" experience).Quote:
Originally Posted by MaraD_
No no.. it's just made for all thirteen of us! There's literally dozens of us! :p (To be fair there are a lot more, so long as you simply discuss people who were disgruntled in the current version and not which version people would like most).Quote:
Originally Posted by MaraD_
IF there is a normal side to blue mage I am far less inclined to believe that limited needs to be so inventive, I just think it had a wonderful potential to give people a sort of mind melting strategy complex (like when you've most legendries and sets unlocked in diablo 3 and you're trying to figure out where to stick your ring of grandeur lol). They could leave limited exactly the way it is now in design concepts, if there was a normal, and I'd be happy. Of course I'd love to have mind melty bit too, personally, but eh.. if my baby turns normal okay whatever lol.
So long as blue mage becomes normal, or if it can't be normal that it gains a much higher level of useful spells and interactivity (that doesn't fail on most content due to boss immunity):
https://i.imgur.com/zB4CJXc.jpeg
Or if they add a transformation job that is either normal or 'actually' primarily solo (and useful), in which case I shut up because I feel like I am the only one asking for that and so I just need to be thankful lol. But if they add it as more designed for PF exclusive / limited use... I'ma be soul crestfallen x2 to this limited concept lol. Oooof. Like if they added big airship content that acts as a decent compromise to housing I'd probably go dark on the housing subject. -
10-27-2020, 01:22 PMShougunI think you missed my point, although MaraD I think also did too so I think it's more my fault then. . . When the whole world is wrong, most likely not the whole world XD. I must have not explained something as I intended. I was saying in a general sense of role blue mage is not a main tank or a main healer (although he can do those things "sort of"), blue mage mainly has abilities that deal with the enemy either through debuffs or through damage, and then happens to have some support on the side (like many jobs).Quote:
Originally Posted by TeraTyrantShadic
I just went through three different versions of blue mage (FFV, FFIX, FFX) and the primary actions were damage and debuffs. With some support skills.
In this I was saying stereotypically blue mage is damage and support mage, like if you made a graphic that is blue mage's actions spread into a pie chart (out of 100%) then most of the % is in damage and debuffs and then the remaining 33% is party support (vanish, white wind, etc).
If you're trying to boil blue mage down into it's most simple essence then of course "uses monster magic that it learned" is going to be the gold ticket (with some diversity on actions too, if it's all one type of skill then you've missed the fun in blue certainly I agree).
Doesn't mean there isn't freedom to mix it up, like making Dark Knight a tank or DD, blue mage a tank or DD, just that I do think there is a stereotypical "role" for blue mage and isn't really all three all at once- he "kind of" has a vague focus towards damage, disruption, and a bit of support. Not that you have to follow that. . So long as something is cool people tend to be okay with change. Like I bet if SE made FFXIV's summoner a tank that was akin to some of the actions in FFXVI's trailer that people might be confused but generally far more accepting than what happened in ARR. Reminds me of what ADVSS said where they felt the we've Paladin right now is a bit hyper magical compared to some versions of other Paladins but eh it's cool, powerful and fun to play (particularly in the non-stereotypical way, like our Paladin doesn't use the standard white magic, he's got his own special stuff).
Or in other weird words lol- If blue mage had instruments for each sort of action it did, and they cast all their spells at once, the most noise would come from damage, debuffs, and other offensive skills, with a back up chorus on support. He doesn't wear heavy armor or have loads of personally tanking skills, like Paladin has cover which makes him 'lord' of tanking for the FF series as a whole, so I find the tanking side of blue light, and the healing side is limited to some situation benefits. Then of course we note that other jobs in the series have had multi-role approaches too, so it's not crazy for a job to have a focus and then some side stuff. Like most FF healers later in the game can slap some decent damage, or hilariously mess up an encounter with reflect (some bosses can absolutely be ruined by casting reflect on the boss, free cures for me thanks haha), or occasionally certain situations allow them to nuke an undead lol.
That said I'm fine you're into the most varied idealization of blue mage, just wanted to say he does have an instrument set that makes the most noise most consistently across the FF series and it tends to be "damage, debuffs, support". I see nothing wrong wanting that to spread into full roles, especially as limited (seems kind of . . .challenging as normal but if they make it work that'd be kind of neat lol), but just that he has a general noise to him if you picture him making noise XD *shakes blue mage*.
Other job that sort of does that is Summoner and Red Mage, with also their damage, debuffs, and support, (or you might group support and debuffs into one unit and say utility), naturally one might argue all the jobs to some extent especially as they level (like many jobs have a broken mechanic, like gil toss or reflect), but generally seems these three have a diverse partnership in the utility and damage sphere. Of course I'd say more notable for blue and summoner is their pacing tends to be different. Like summoner tends to be pretty cool early to mid game but the fall off due to scaling can happen sometimes, and blue mage comes and goes in waves, while say a black, white or other standard job is far more consistent.
This would probably where we're both going to diverge the most on the hope for blue, not that I'm not interested in reading what you think or wouldn't be amused if they somehow made it work (three role one job all kit building......).. But I think making a balanced job, three different roles, mechanically fun, and that gets to pick from 120+ skills and play three different roles, is a tall, tall, order. I would add that I do agree that MANY of blue mage's current spells are not so unbalanced that they couldn't work in a DF setting each in their own right (some still are a bit bonkers, freezing something for 30 seconds nearly is a bit crazy...), but to give that customization across three roles seems a bit wewh lawd lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeraTyrantShadic
Also to be completely honest I am not impressed with blue mage's current mechanics, in terms of it's depth, flow, feel, or progression, and would likely be far more impressed if they just developed a kit besides (next to) limited and either left limited alone for PF or take a pass at the entire thing (for the purposes of spicing it up, less regard for PF balance). I believe I've read you mentioned polishing some of it with a gauge and such, so I'm assuming you're thinking there'd be some touch ups as well but I'm not sure by how much you're thinking. I have also read what you said about limited which appears not so much as removing it as much as just consuming all of limited into normal as such there is no distinction, correct me if I'm wrong, which would just take me back up to "tall order" but I would find it both wildly amusing and interesting if SE made that work somehow. I'm not really one to say things are impossible, just sounds extra hard mode lol. Personally don't mind limited sitting next to normal, as talked with MaraD as this way players could have pretty close to original spells with little regard to balance and then they can have as thematically and mechanically interesting as possible while still being balanced "normal" to work along side it. My bias is to making limited side a bit mind melty, where things combo and reverberate both explicitly and implicitly (as mentioned in some ability combo examples in the other post), and I see mimicry as damage to a high variety and causes forced role play style which I think is a shame to making free form builds. As well I find there are way too many spells that don't scream their useful on their own and neither useful in tandem. While impossible to do always the ideal goal, imo, would be every skill seems useful alone and then even more useful when pictured as a group- like as I say for D3 where you're not forced really into a specific role as much as getting to build whatever plays and combos interestingly to you.
I see mimicry as more of a way to handwave the not so interesting kit building and guide down specific mechanics they've made and to force players into specific sets of abilities as to create an image of organization and a "sense" of kit building (I say sense since I don't really see much in the way of options, given that they designed the job primarily around PF, which at this point I'm a hyper broken record but say unlike for example D3 or Hades where things weren't really designed with the idea it needed to be balanced to someone else and rather just balanced to yourself for maximum fun and thoughtful interplay). Of course with the idea I suggested where spells interweave would be far harder to balance for DF than using mimicry. Far. . . far. . harder. Like in Diablo 3 most kits can do normal content, an okay kit will take you to space, but a well made kit will take you to the end of time and back. You can't be doing that for normal group play XD.
I can see mimicry being important to you if you believe blue mage should be able to be "normal" for all three roles, in which case the rigidity it imposes is kind of important (not just kind of, but very). Since I don't see limited having to leave I kind of see it as a sad shackle that lowers creative input (like it would be nice my cure doesn't suck unless I turn on healer mode lol, to be clear I'm not suggesting mimicry doesn't offer power and so lots of people will HAVE to use it, just that I feel it's not the greatest thing for kit building or value of skills / diversity kit building), but.. I can shift my perspective to see where in your hope for blue it's a helpful tool. So I should rephrase, if they make it wild kit building and is still limited then I don't really think mimicry is that great, but if they make it a multi-role normal job I guess I see it being a bit important. :p -
10-27-2020, 04:50 PMTeraTyrantShadicYou have looked through just 3 versions of Blue Mage that much I understand but there are over 6 versions of it (Not including the spinoffs) from the Final Fantasy series. Your generalization is more about the stereotypes and not the actual generalization. Yes most of the spells in these games are related to support and damage. However that is not Blue Mage in general. Blue Mage in general is a mage that practices Blue Magic and is versatile to the battle/situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
What you have just mentioned is the stereotypical type of attacks it has majority of the time throughout the Final Fantasy Series, but that is just solely focusing on it as a DPS rather than the other two roles as well. Blue Mage is VERSATILE meaning it is fitting to almost every situation. This is an MMO so people are going to have expectations of it to fit all 3 roles. Especially when FFXI has successfully done it before. In FFXIV’s case it is doable, difficult but doable but they first need the right puzzle piece which is why I stress the fact that the class needs the Job Gauge. If it were to fit in, it needs one especially to balance it between roles to prevent powerful hybrids. Red Mage is one as they can DPS and Heal, however people tend to ignore Vercure as it can slow their DPS down. Which already prevents it at a mechanical level, with Blue Mage however the same can be applied but 2nd factor is needed to prevent the spam which is why a job gauge for it is a better solution.
I never said it was easy, besides it is doable. A tall order it may be, but it is very much doable with time and dedication from the development team but they rush it before 5.0 because they didn't have the solution before the next expansion.
I had a hunch (You can skip this sentence/part), why release a job half baked/done right before the next expansion and say it took you a year to make it. I kept wondering and speculated, maybe they were planning to bring it to 5.0 but didn’t have the time and resources necessary to allow it to come to fruition. Then when I heard 5.4 will be a new update for Blue Mage I thought maybe that was the case maybe they were planning on a full job for it but 5.0 wasn’t it’s time to shine. At this point with my assumption I can only speculate further.
They had a year to work on Blue Mage and yet there this is what we get, a broken mess. However when the 5.15 update for Blue Mage was released they added more emphasis on group play and roles with the new spells and the key spell Aetherial Mimicry. The reason why I say they should have the customization is mainly because we have yet to see the job gauge. Who knows maybe they'll add or not. Because most job gauges for mages (Except Summoner) are a build up type of gauge. If you lock the powerful skills behind such a gauge you then have forced the player to choose to either tank, heal or DPS properly. Look at Red mage, can’t do a full combo until you are 80+ in both white and black magic. Black Mages need to wait 30 seconds to get 1 Polyglot to even cast Xenoglossy. The same could be applied to all 3 roles. Healer already has proven it with the Faerie and Healing gauge, and Tank with Oath, Beast and Blood Gauge. It has been proven already in the game that the Build Up type gauge is most used universally in every job. Which is why it is doable for it to be applied for all 3 roles. If all 3 roles use it, then surely a job with all 3 roles can do the same as well.
What I have said about Limited is about the system itself. “Limited Job is just a copycat of the Normal Job System but with restrictions” It isn’t a tall order because If you just remove the restrictions on the Limited Job system. You’ll come to realize it is exactly the same system with just minor changes. If Blue Mage were turned into a normal job then integrating it wouldn’t be much of a difficulty as these are systems that categorizes jobs. They don’t provide content rather they are just like houses holding in furniture and its residents. With the residents being the Jobs and the furniture being the Content.
With the way they implemented Aetherial Mimicry, it is as only certain spells get boosted when under a specific pseudo-role. Forcing players to have a specific set of abilities to make full use of Aetherial Mimicry is one of the ways of balancing it. Since it’ll be too powerful if a Blue Mage can DPS and Heal at the same time so forcing players to sacrifice slots for the abilities needed for that role, can be a good idea. You can still build kits no problem. But as a Healer you heal and spam a DoT and a spam cast (Glare, Broil II, Malefic IV, Dia, Bio & Miasma, Combust III). As for Tank you just spam a rotation and try to build up your gauge as soon as possible ready to have enough to Mitigate an incoming Tankbuster (in the case of Paladin) or Deal damage (WAR, DRK, GNB)
Versatility is one of the core identities that gives Blue Mage its flair hence why it should Multirole. Even in FFXI Blue Mage are used for DPS, Support, Tanking and if you can Healing. Aetherial Mimicry will only force people to take certain abilities, however that doesn’t mean it is mandatory, I mean you can pick up a Tank pseudo-role and still have Pom Cure (even though it is not ideal). The freedom is still there. If I want I can toss away Gobshield and use Pom Cure and replace the slot meant for Gobshield with something else. It is not rigid that I can tell. They can still make a great kit even when it is a Normal Job.
Limited Job does the opposite instead of expressing creative freedom. All it ever did was provide filler content and not much to job improvements, the only improvement we see on the job is more new spells and level cap increase. There is nothing creative from that as people can reuse an old attack animation or the spell’s effects from a monster and slap it onto a Blue Mage and then readjusting the spell meant to be used by a player. If they really are expressing creative freedom then where is the experimental job gauge, so far with normal jobs there is even more creative freedom. Even then you can’t express true creative freedom because this is an MMO, you have to balance it no matter if the job is Limited or Normal. If it was a single player game the thought process would be different and people will try to be more ambitious and creative. This is an MMO where you have to balance, nerf, omit and make sure everything is working.
Hence why I said Limited Job is a flawed system and it'll never work, it has already contradicted everything the developers said it was meant for. Which were Solo-play, staying in a dungeon for 45 mins doesn't count as a soloing. Masked Carnival is a solo play but people thought everything else is also solo play which isn't. It is solo play for only one content and learning spells is still chance based even in duty finder when you go in solo; Less Suited for Party-based game play, We have spell related to group play and we even have achievements going in as a all Blue Mage party to clear Bahamut and Alexander (A8S & A12S werent easy), there is even an incentive for you to play as a group to get a spell in just 1 run and it is a guaranteed learn. Not just that but the group can be ANY party composition meaning you can go in as PLD, WHM, BLU and MNK and still get the 100% learning rate so long you are SYNCED. Like I said at the start of this paragraph Limited Job is useless and we don't need it as we can easily move Blue Mage into a normal job status after balancing it fully. If they want for Beastmaster and Puppetmaster they can just work on the pet system they have right now and slowly rework it and then add in beastmaster and puppetmaster as a Normal Job. We don't need limited jobs as it does not provide anything of use neither does the reward appeal many to go and redo it again. -
10-27-2020, 05:59 PMADVSS
You guys are clearly passionate about BLU. I sort of have to disagree about AM though. I dont honestly think it would be broken to just give BLU all 3 benefits at once, especially if they arent getting traits to 70, The healing might be slightly better than 1 vercure, but definitely not 2 back to back. The raise needs a fix, even for a dps with raise utility it shouldnt need a - swiftcast if its on a 3 minute recast or b - it shouldnt take 3 minutes to recast, period. Worst case scenario is that you can toggle between each role mid fight, either using the gauge, or have it on a cd maybe. I honestly think it will end up as a dps job with a role shift mechanic, or the skills could just work with all 3 benefits available.
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10-27-2020, 06:05 PMDianoia
The win-win solution is to give BLU a set number of abilities and a rotation balanced specifically for high end content. Have a toggle similar to content unsynch/synch for level and ilevel that allows BLU to que with their full, unbalanced repertoire. Now people who like BLU as it is can have it as it is and people who want BLU as a "full" job can have that, too.
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10-28-2020, 12:17 AMAlysellaTrue. It can be like pvp actions. Same skill can have different effects and different potencies depends on the content. It is entirely possible for them to make something like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dianoia
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10-28-2020, 12:29 AMMaraD_The weird thing is, ppl still complain about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dianoia
Essentially their argument is that they will only do endgame content, and never touch content they can cheeze, because the game isnt forcing them anymore...
which the whole point was to have options in how you plan. thats why they liked limited BLU in the 1st place, so why is it suddenly an issue for them? idk, i dont get it, even if they try to spell it out for me. as far as im concerned, its the same system they have now, but adding max lv cap, and duty finder.
(Part of me thinks theres a technical reason BLU doesnt go into PotD. Like the game doesnt handle syncing u down/up, because somewhere in the coding, BLU actually uses that bit of code for something else, so PotD/HoH wont function, or some nonsense. Theres no real reason BLU cant do PotD/HoH, so im inclined to make up stories as to why) -
10-28-2020, 02:58 AMShougunDoesn't really feel like options, pseudo options. One of the things I agree with those who counter why blue isn't a normal in it's current state is that there are options that are absolutely brain dead awful and then few 'kay' but then like "the one" that is actually any good.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaraD_
So let's go on the concept that you can have blue as it is, but no longer "limited" it's a full job (with all the mechanics it has currently, with maybe some minor tweaks). You've got three roles and each role has "the kit" you need to pick or else you're just a rock for your team. Switching out a few skills for a god awful cure because you want diversity isn't really a great opportunity (not saying white wind, obviously white wind on a tank would be gold in DF lol).
In this I actually think limited, and the more the job is designed with disregard for party content, allows the job to have more build choices because you get to play it yourself- just like in Diablo 3 or Hades or whatever other kit building game. Limited has the potential to have the most expansive kit building experience, as soon as you take kit building to party content that experience greatly restricts (even if you call it normal).
So I personally like the idea of limited designed without regard of party content as it sounds like "ah yeah, can kind of do whatever you want".
Counter to my own point though is you're kind of designing a WoW talent system with blue mage if you bring it all normal. . . "it can work" but the build diversity in that situation is three builds and if SE designs it with the most extreme talent and balance might get minor deviations for your own personal touch. Tank, Healer, DD. But assuming the balance is more on human levels and not god level design then- doesn't sound like kit building to me as much as being railroaded into specific sets of skills, while also causing a lot of potential balance and community issues (like blue mages who choose dumb kits causing lots of problems lol). This is why I think the pvp sort of concept would be the best, as it gives players a set expectation, a strong set of spells that are well designed for visual and mechanical play, and then allows blue mage to be the bucktoothed special duck on it's own time with either insanely awful or insanely OP builds.
So can a three role system work, yeah kind of like how it does already in WoW - it's basically what blue mage would be, a WoW job that could switch between their talent trees with relative ease. I'm just not certain the extra work in balancing three trees to the standard of a normal job (basically costing 'nearly' the balance time of three jobs, while also adding some community heart ache) is quite worth it vs just making one "damn good version" and letting limited side be all wonky and special like (personal opinion).
Also why I liked OP's idea a bit more on the kit building concept since it took some of the wild concepts of kit building and simplified it into more of some general options. Like a restrictive subway sandwich building experience. In this way it'd be impractical to build something truly awful (as OP grouped like skills together, meaning you get to pick minor variations of a concept rather than like "do you want white wind or do you want acorn bomb?").
But by taking the limited system with the full kit building experience (so not OP's idea which was more careful) to normal you can have some really awful blue mage builds lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeraTyrantShadic
Just looked at the rest, my statement stands . . until you reach FFXI lol. They're largely offensive support.
"But they can heal", so can many other jobs like summoner, red mage, etc.
"But they can help reduce damage", again similarly other jobs.
By having a healing spell or two doesn't make them a main healer, by having damage reduction doesn't make them a tank. Especially when their heal is generally hyper situational, and when you look at their damage reduction skills then so too is a white mage a tank when it whips out stoneskin, protect, and shell? Casting buffs that reduce damage isn't enough to make one a tank.
Primarily blue mage offers versatile utility and damage. Just like a Summoner might, or a Red Mage may.
Like vanish is a great damage reduction spell on physical bosses, but I don't need to cast it on blue, I can cast it on my Paladin who is also covering my black mage - which gets me more value than casting it on just my blue mage (especially as my paladin has all the defense and hp).
I understand blue mage is versatile, many FF jobs have it to some extent, some to a nearly equal level (often times Summoner gains a huge list of potentials, clearly red mage too), just being versatile doesn't make you have to be every role though (Especially when blue mage's tanking or healing are either situational or more like buffs than actual self tanking).
Think of it like a restoration druid in WoW. You're not a main tank or damage dealer anymore, you're a healer with some versatility (you could still transform into your other forms and that gives you some versatility certainly, but they're not going to be on par to an actual tank or an actual damage dealer). Blue Mage in the series has been consistently a druid who was spec to one specific tree (until FFXI hahaha). I'm not arguing their versatile but I'm arguing they don't have to be every role, although they could be, especially when they weren't technically in the past (again they're most often akin to a druid spec to the damage tree). They could sort of help you heal and sort of help you reduce damage, but they mostly dealt and disrupted the foes- meanwhile other jobs actually took the healing or the tanking to the "next level". Like casting stoneskin doesn't make white mage a tank neither does casting mighty guard. Situationally blue can drop big heals, but slap their hp just a bit and their heal then jumps into terrible while white mage's is going to be amazing no matter what (especially late game white mage can heal huge numbers).
Also if we're discussing FFXI then a lot of jobs could do things that one wouldn't expect, like Ninja is a tank, SMN is a main healer / buffer, Red Mage is a main healer, soloer, debuffer, buffer, pez dispenser, and even decent damage if built right. I would not use FFXI has the standard of what made the job it's sterotype, FFXI did what it wanted with each job (and sometimes to great effect, sometimes kind of awful lol). I played blue mage in FFXI, it was fun with the multi-role ability, like with magic fruit and the right gear you could main heal as blue with relative ease (and the mp cost was really cheap).
I think it's technically possible but just sounded like a lot more challenge and cost, like in WoW each job has multiple trees and many of the jobs have actually good trees (some have awful choices, particularly during certain expansions). But like druid is a solid choice as a healer, tank, and damage dealer. So going back to what I said before I tend to see blue mag through the whole series a bit like druid spec to a specific tree, well technically you can so "why not get more creative and let blue spec to other trees, they're 65% the way there and we've loads of monster skills that can facilitate this, also "ffxi"" - okay yeah sure, it's a thing that can happen lol. But again stereotypically blue mage was a druid spec to just one tree, not all three trees at all times, at least until FFXI came along (but part of that is also the sub job system which we don't have here).Quote:
Originally Posted by TeraTyrantShadic
It doesn't bother me that you think it should be all three or that it adds a lot of value for the players with not loads of time on their hand, or you think it might be extra fun. I just also don't really think that stereotypically blue mage was all three roles at once. Like I never thought Red Mage was all three roles at once even though they could wield a sword, use both white and black magic. They were your offensive support.
If you feel Red Mage should have multi-roled too then I guess okay.. but I don't really think that it was and I think Blue Mage is basically a weirdly paced more gimmicky Red Mage with a cooler theme for magic :3 (both offer many similar concepts in terms of actions and equipment, blue just having more situational / oddly balanced skills).
Early on around blue mage's release I had also suggested that they take the limited concept as a way to make three jobs an expansion. Release 4.5 as limited, make it normal by 5.5x. So I agree with this possibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeraTyrantShadic
If you were going to make the limited system shift into normal I can see the AM being a paramount skill to enforcing some sane sense of balance. I don't like it strictly in the sense if blue mage remains limited.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeraTyrantShadic
If by using AM you forced players out of specific skills and also forced players into specific skills I could see it being more easily balanced, like how OP has set specific role slots so you can't just do "whatever".
I do agree it seems nearly everything they said they wanted to do they then contradicted with their own decisions, like not wanting players to have to get specific skills in group settings and then putting the job into settings where that is entirely needed lol. While I'd still personally be a bit bummed if the job never becomes normal or the limited side isn't given a revamp I would be far less salty if they just came out and were like "hokay! So... this si what we actually are intending with blue mage, it's meant to be "x"". Apologies are not needed (kind of sucks if you feel like every time something is slightly off you have to beg for something, bit silly), opinions and goals are allowed to change- but the information we have at the near spawn of blue mage paints an entirely different story than the blue mage we actually have now (as almost every goal they mentioned seems like a goal they intentionally then broke).
However I do see blue mage working well as a broken cleanup job with super high kit building interactability (so still limited). I don't like PF limited but some people enjoy that, personally think it would be achieved much better with another concept, but just wanted to at least voice that some people really like the idea.
So in some people's mind the job does totally work and isn't a failure. Of course on some levels I disagree with that mindset (at least so much that I wish it changed and they don't), but there does exist the mindset that "it's fun and good".
I'm of the mind the general desire of PF exclusive is fine, like making niche content for ultimate raiders, but that using blue for it and how they went about it were not quite the best choices (like if black mage only showed up in Eureka or something, just seems like "..that is a wild choice yo.." lol). Like if they wanted so many spells I would be more impressed if they were useful, I don't really see why I should be excited for 20 spells of varying colors and the same or slightly alerted potency at that point I think "why bother with that when you could just make one set of impressively designed skills?".
I still think balancing 120 skills (+) into three roles while still offering a fair amount of kit building (more restrictive the building the easier making things work gets).. is like "yikes" . . . but let's just say they somehow pull it off (ignore the concern). Then that could be neat. I still hope the mechanics of the job are reviewed though, some roles, and progression, are kind of 'meh'.
Also if they ever said balancing those 3 roles cost them making 3 other unique jobs.. Bigger yikes lol. That's where I think if it has limited stuff while I don't think it should be "eh who cares whatever" style design that if they made a booboo it doesn't really matter. "oh no I made the fire build too strong for this patch cycle, i'll fix it when I can" vs "blue mage tank and damage is god awful and is ruining my DF, meanwhile blue healer is so OP people wont accept me into raid if I dont main heal blue" xD.
I don't hate limited as a generic concept, .. just how they did it with blue like giving this sense of we'll give you so many extra skills and you can build kits and it's going to be gree-- but then it really feels like nah most skills can be put into a pile of "same" and the builds narrow down drastically into musts and doesn't matters (pseudo choice as some people call it, like sure you can take pom cure on tank AM... but it's going to suck lol). If this was mimic job or something really strange I think it'd not matter as much to me but since it was a job I always thought had a neat spirit I'd hope something more from it than whatever it is currently.
If SE can somehow make it three whole, interestingly designed, roles without destroying 3 other unique job's chances, or the balance of the game, cool, sounds extra hard, but cool. If SE makes it have a normal side to sit next to PF exclusive, cool (I think both systems would help each other out). If SE makes it normal and primarily solo designed, extra cool for me, but I'd kind of hope they add a new PF exclusive content since it does seem some people liked that (a new idea ideally, so not to take away someone's dreams). -
10-28-2020, 03:23 AMADVSS
I dont really understand the whole 3 roles in one. BLU has been a jack of all almost to the same vein as RDM. I think though, that people wanted a class that was versatile in different roles, or could tag in as a replacement this or that. Im going to look at past BLU spells and effects, but it always seemed to be a caster 1st, and potentially a support mage, but besides WW, usually had abysmal healing, and well the tanking is most likely an XI thing, personally. It could wear some medium armor in V, but still
BLU before 11 reinvented it:
Angel Whisper - Angel Whisper revives and restores HP to KO'd allies.
Mighty Guard - Mighty Guard grants Protect and Shell, plus other statuses that vary from game to game, to the entire party.
White Wind - White Wind restores HP to the party based in some way on the caster's HP.
Frog Song - Frog Song usually inflicts Toad and sometimes Sleep. It is generally learned from Toad enemies.
Magic Hammer - Magic Hammer reduces or drains a target's MP.
Night - Night puts all targets, friend and foe, to sleep. It even affects the caster in Final Fantasy IX.
Offensive spells
Aero - Aero inflicts Wind elemental damage. Often appears as White or Black Magic. Other similar spells varying in power are Aerora and Aeroga.
Aqua Breath - Aqua Breath inflicts Water elemental damage to all enemies.
Bad Breath - Bad Breath inflicts various statuses on all enemies, which differs from game to game. It is generally learned from the Malboro enemies.
Flamethrower - Flamethrower inflicts Fire elemental damage to one enemy. It is generally learned from Dragon enemies.
Doom - Doom inflicts the Doom status on one enemy.
Level 5 Death - Level 5 Death inflicts Instant Death on all enemies whose levels are a multiple of 5. In some games, it may work on bosses that are normally immune to normal death magic.
Roulette - Roulette randomly knocks out any target in battle, whether it is an enemy or a party member.
1000 Needles - 1000 Needles inflicts 1000 damage to an enemy, regardless of defense stat or bonuses such as Protect. The ability is usually learned from the Cactuar enemy.
Acid - Acid inflicts non-elemental damage to an enemy, as well as status effects.
Blaster - Blaster generally inflicts non-elemental damage and attempts to inflict Instant Death on the target. It is generally learned from the Coeurl enemies.
Goblin Punch - Goblin Punch inflicts non-elemental damage to one enemy, but inflicts massive damage if the enemy's level is the same as the caster. It is generally learned from Goblin enemies.
Lifebreak - Also known as ???, Lifebreak inflicts damage based on the difference between the caster's Max HP and current HP. Behemoth enemies generally use this spell.
Limit Glove - Limit Glove inflicts massive damage when the caster's HP is in critical.
Matra Magic - Matra Magic deals non-elemental damage to all enemies or attempts to inflict Instant Death. Can generally be learned from Machine enemies.
Self-Destruct - Self-Destruct sacrifices the user to inflict non-elemental damage equal to user's current HP. It is generally learned from Bomb enemies.
Game specific
Final Fantasy V
Flash - blinds all enemies.
Level 2 Old - casts Old on all targets with a level that is a multiple of 2.
Level 3 Flare - casts Flare on all targets with a level that is a multiple of 3.
Level 4 Graviga - casts Graviga on all targets with a level that is a multiple of 4.
Guard-Off - lowers the target's defense.
Lilliputian Lyric - casts Mini on the target.
Death Claw - reduces target's HP to a single digit and paralyzes them.
Time Slip - casts Old and Sleep on the target.
Moon Flute - casts Berserk on the target.
Transfusion - fully restores target's HP and MP. KOs the user afterward.
Dark Spark - halves the target's level.
Vampire - drains HP from the target by an amount equal to either the difference in the user's current and max HP or the target's current HP.
Final Fantasy VI
Tsunami - deals Water damage to all enemies.
Level 3 Confuse - casts Confuse on all enemies whose level is a multiple of 3.
Reflect??? - causes Darkness, Silence, and Slow on all opponents who have the Reflect status.
Traveler - deals damage to one opponent equal to the number of steps the party has taken throughout the game divided by 32.
Force Field - nulls all damage done by a random element to everyone on the field—allies and foes both.
Dischord - halves the level of one enemy. Enemies immune to death will not be affected.
Rippler - switches any status ailments Strago has with those of one opponent.
Quasar - deals non-elemental magic damage to all opponents.
Grand Delta - deals non-elemental magic damage to all opponents. More powerful than quasar.
Final Fantasy VII
Beta - deals massive Fire damage to all enemies, ignoring Reflect.
Chocobuckle - deals damage equal to the number of times the party has escaped from battle times 4, only if the caster's level is a multiple of 4.
Final Fantasy VIII
Laser Eye - Lasers from caster's eyes hurt a single enemy.
Ultra Waves - deals non-elemental damage and Berserks all enemies.
Electrocute - deals Lightning damage to all enemies.
LV?Death - casts Death on any enemy whose level is a multiple of a certain number, which depends on Quistis's Crisis Level.
Degenerator - eliminates an enemy from battle.
Gatling Gun - deals physical damage to one enemy.
Acid - deals damage and status change on a single enemy.
Homing Laser - deals damage to all enemies.
Raybomb - deals physical damage to all enemies.
Shockwave Pulsar - deals massive non-elemental damage to all enemies. Dealing critical damage that may exceed the 9,999 limit.
Final Fantasy IX
Level 4 Holy - deals Holy damage to all enemies whose levels are a multiple of 4.
Level 3 Defless - randomly lowers the defense and magic defense of enemies whose levels are a multiple of 3.
Twister - deals random Wind damage to all enemies.
Earth Shake - deals Earth damage to all enemies on the ground.
Angel's Snack - consumes four Remedies to use on the entire party at once.
Frog Drop - deals damage based on the number of Frogs that Quina has eaten.
Vanish - causes a target to disappear and become immune to physical damage.
Frost - attempts to inflict the Freeze status on one target.
Mustard Bomb - attempts to inflict the Heat status on one target.
Auto-Life - causes one target to automatically be revived once after being KO'd.
Final Fantasy X
Seed Cannon - deals damage to one target.
Thrust Kick - causes physical damage to one target and attempts to Eject the target from battle.
Stone Breath - inflicts the Stone status on all vulnerable enemies.
Nova - deals massive non-elemental damage to all enemies.
Final Fantasy X-2
Seed Cannon - deals damage to one target.
Stone Breath - inflicts the Stone status on all vulnerable enemies.
Nova - deals massive non-elemental damage to all enemies.
Absorb - absorbs a small amount of HP and MP from a target.
Cry in the Night - deals non-elemental damage to the entire target party.
Drill Shot - deals physical damage to one target.
Mortar - deals non-elemental damage to the entire target party.
Annihilator - deals non-elemental damage the entire target party.
Heaven's Cataract - deals non-elemental damage to the entire target party and reduces its defense and magic-defense.
Storm Cannon - deals non-elemental damage to the entire target party based on the caster's level.
and then BLU as 11's reinvention
Acrid Stream - deals water damage to enemies within a fan-shaped area originating from the caster. Additional effect: Lowers target's Magic Defense.
Actinic Burst - greatly lowers the accuracy of enemies within range for a brief period of time.
Amplification - enhances the casters magic attack and magic defense.
Animating Wail - increases the casters attack speed.
Asuran Claws - delivers a sixfold attack. Accuracy varies with TP.
Auroral Drape - silences and blinds enemies within range.
Awful Eye - lowers Strength of enemies within a fan-shaped area originating from the caster.
Battery Charge - gradually restores the casters MP.
Battle Dance - delivers an area attack. Additional effect: DEX Down. Duration of effect varies with TP.
Benthic Typhoon - delivers an area attack that lowers target's defense and magic defense. Damage varies with TP.
Blank Gaze - removes one beneficial magic effect from an enemy.
Blastbomb - deals fire damage to enemies within area of effect. Additional effect: "Bind".
Blazing Bound - deals fire damage to an enemy.
Blitzstrahl - deals lightning damage to an enemy. Additional effect: "Stun".
Blood Drain - steals an enemy's HP. Ineffective against undead.
Blood Saber - steals HP from enemies within range. Ineffective against undead.
Bludgeon - delivers a threefold attack. Accuracy varies with TP.
Body Slam - delivers an area attack. Damage varies with TP.
Bomb Toss - throws a bomb at an enemy.
Cannonball - deals a single hit attack to the target. Damage varies with TP.
Chaotic Eye - silences an enemy.
Charged Whisker - deals Lightning damage to enemies within area of effect.
Cimicine Discharge - reduces the attack speed of enemies within range.
Claw Cyclone - damages enemies within area of effect with a twofold attack. Damage varies with TP.
Cocoon - enhances the casters defense.
Cold Wave - deals ice damage that lowers Agility and gradually reduces HP of enemies within range.
Corrosive Ooze - deals water damage to an enemy. Additional Effect: Attack Down and Defense Down.
Cursed Sphere - deals water damage to enemies within area of effect.
Death Ray - deals dark damage to an enemy.
Death Scissors - deals a single hit attack to the target. Damage varies with TP.
Delta Thrust - delivers a threefold attack on a single target. Additional effect: Plague.
Demoralizing Roar - weakens the attack of enemies within range.
Diamondhide - gives party members within area of effect the effect of "Stoneskin".
Digest - steals an enemy's HP. Ineffective against undead.
Dimensional Death - deals a single hit attack to the target. Damage varies with TP.
Disseverment - delivers a fivefold attack. Additional effect: Poison. Accuracy varies with TP.
Dream Flower - puts all enemies within range to sleep.
Empty Thrash - delivers an area of attack attack. Accuracy varies with TP.
Enervation - lowers the defense and magical defense of enemies within range.
Everyone's Grudge - deals dark damage to an enemy.
Exuviation - restores the casters HP and removes one detrimental magic effect.
Eyes On Me - deals dark damage to an enemy.
Fantod - enhances the casters attack and magic attack.
Feather Barrier - enhances the casters evasion.
Feather Storm - damages the enemy and may inflict poison. Chance of effect varies with TP.
Feather Tickle - reduces an enemy's TP.
Filamented Hold - reduces the attack speed of enemies within a fan-shaped area originating from the caster.
Final Sting - deals damage proportional to the casters HP. Reduces the casters HP to 1 after use. Damage varies with TP.
Firespit - deals fire damage to an enemy.
Flying Hip Press - deals wind damage to enemies within range.
Foot Kick - deals critical damage. Chance of critical hit varies with TP.
Frenetic Rip - delivers a threefold attack. Damage varies with TP.
Frightful Roar - weakens defense of enemies within range.
Frost Breath - deals ice damage to enemies within a fan-shaped area originating from the caster. Additional effect: Paralysis.
Frypan - delivers an area attack. Additional effect: "Stun". Accuracy varies with TP.
Geist Wall - removes one beneficial magic effect from enemies within range.
Goblin Rush - delivers a threefold attack. Accuracy varies with TP.
Grand Slam - delivers an area attack. Damage varies with TP.
Head Butt - deals a single hit attack to the target. Damage varies with TP. Additional effect: "Stun".
Healing Breeze - restores HP for party members within area of effect.
Heat Breath - deals fire damage to enemies within a fan-shaped area originating from the caster.
Hecatomb Wave - deals wind damage to enemies within a fan-shaped area originating from the caster. Additional effect: Blindness.
Leafstorm - deals wind damage within area of effect.
Helldive - deals a single hit attack to the target. Damage varies with TP.
Hydro Shot - deals a single hit attack to the target. Additional effect: Enmity Down. Chance of effect varies with TP.
Hysteric Barrage - delivers a fivefold attack. Damage varies with TP.
Ice Break - deals ice damage to enemies within range. Additional Effect: "Bind".
Infrasonics - lowers the evasion of enemies within a fan-shaped area originating from the caster.
Jet Stream - delivers a threefold attack. Accuracy varies with TP.
Jettatura - enemies within a fan-shaped area originating from the caster are frozen with fear.
Light of Penance - reduces an enemy's TP. Additional effect: Blindness and "Bind".
Lowing - gives enemies within range a powerful disease that prevents recovery of HP and MP.
MP Drainkiss - steals an enemy's MP. Ineffective against undead.
Maelstrom - deals water damage to enemies within range. Additional effect: STR Down.
Magic Barrier - grants the caster a Magic Shield effect.
Magic Fruit - restores HP for the target party member.
Magnetite Cloud - deals earth damage to enemies within a fan-shaped area originating from the caster. Additional effect: Weight.
Mandibular Bite - deals a single hit attack to the target. Damage varies with TP.
Memento Mori - enhances the casters magic attack.
Metallic Body - absorbs an certain amount of damage from physical and magical attacks.
Mind Blast - deals lightning damage to an enemy. Additional effect: Paralysis.
Mysterious Light - deals wind damage to enemies within range. Additional effect: Weight.
Osmosis - steals an enemy's HP and one beneficial status effect. Ineffective against undead.
Occultation - creates shadow images that each absorb a single attack directed at the caster.
Pinecone Bomb - deals a single hit attack to the target. Additional effect: sleep. Duration of effect varies with TP.
Plasma Charge - covers the caster with magical lightning spikes. Enemies that hit the caster take lightning damage.
Plenilune Embrace - restores target party member's HP and enhances attack and magic attack. Attack boost and magic attack boost depends on the current moon phase.
Poison Breath - deals water damage to enemies within a fan-shaped area originating from the caster. Additional effect: Poison.
Pollen - restores the casters HP.
Power Attack - deals critical damage. Chance of critical hit varies with TP.
Quadratic Continuum - delivers a fourfold attack. Damage varies with TP.
Queasyshroom - deals a single hit attack to the target. Additional effect: Poison. Duration of effect varies with TP.
Radiant Breath - deals light damage to enemies within a fan-shaped area of effect originating from the caster. Additional effect: Slow and Silence.
Ram Charge - deals a single hit attack to the target. Damage varies with TP.
Reactor Cool - enhances defense and covers the caster with magical ice spikes. Enemies that hit the caster take ice damage.
Reaving Wind - reduces TP for enemies within range.
Refueling - increases the casters attack speed.
Regeneration - gradually restores the casters HP.
Regurgitation - deals Water damage to an enemy. Additional Effect: Bind.
Saline Coat - enhances the casters magic defense.
Sandspin - deals earth damage to enemies within range. Additional Effect: Accuracy Down.
Sandspray - blinds enemies within a fan-shaped area originating from the caster.
Screwdriver - deals critical damage. Chance of critical hit varies with TP.
Seedspray - delivers a threefold attack. Additional effect: Weakens defense. Chance of effect varies with TP.
Sheep Song - puts all enemies within range to sleep.
Sickle Slash - deals critical damage. Chance of critical hit varies with TP.
Smite of Rage - deals a single hit attack to the target. Damage varies with TP.
Soporific - puts all enemies within range to sleep.
Sound Blast - lowers Intelligence of enemies within range.
Spinal Cleave - deals a single hit attack to the target. Accuracy varies with TP.
Spiral Spin - deals a single hit attack to the target. Additional Effect: Accuracy Down. Chance of effect varies with TP.
Sprout Smack - deals a single hit attack to the target. Additional effect: Slow. Duration of effect varies with TP.
Stinking Gas - lowers Vitality of enemies within range.
Sub-zero Smash - deals a single hit attack to the target. Additional Effect: Paralysis. Damage varies with TP.
Tail Slap - delivers an area attack. Additional effect: "Stun." Damage varies with TP.
Temporal Shift - enemies within range are temporarily prevented from acting.
Terror Touch - deals a single hit attack to the target. Additional effect: Weakens attacks. Accuracy varies with TP.
Thermal Pulse - deals Fire damage to enemies within area of effect. Additional effect: Blindness.
Triumphant Roar - enhances the casters Attack.
Uppercut - deals a single hit attack to the target. Damage varies with TP.
Vanity Dive - deals a single hit attack to the target. Damage varies with TP.
Venom Shell - poisons enemies within range and gradually reduces their HP.
Vertical Cleave - deals a single hit attack to the target. Damage varies with TP.
Voracious Trunk - steals one beneficial effect from an enemy.
Warm-Up - enhances the casters accuracy and evasion.
Whirl of Rage - delivers an area attack that stuns enemies. Damage varies with TP.
Wild Carrot - restores HP for the target party member.
Wild Oats - deals a single hit attack to the target. Additional effect: Vitality Down. Duration of effect varies on TP.
Winds of Promyvion - removes one detrimental magic effect for party members within area of effect.
Yawn - puts all enemies within range to sleep.
Zephyr Mantle - creates shadow images that each absorb a single attack directed at the caster. -
10-28-2020, 04:37 AMTeraTyrantShadicFirst paragraph you have have literally just proven they are versatile and capable in filling all three roles. We don't have the full kit (or we do) who is to say they won't expand more into it, not just that but Aetherial Mimicry reinforces this especially when it buffs certain spells related to certain Pseudo roles. Regarding for roles, it can involve two ways. Either way I don't mind DPS only or all 3 roles. However it is better keep people happy if it can do all 3 roles which would be the much preferred outcome. White Mage did have Stoneskin and is not a tank, however you cannot apply that to a Blue Mage in FFXIV. Especially when some of the spells you obtain can be boosted with the role. Pom cure is one such example that the normal healing potency is 100, but with Aetherial Mimicry: Heal the potency jump to 500 as strong as a normal cure. If you want a directly similar spell then lets take Cactgaurd as another example where the damage taken is reduced by 5% and only other party members can receive it when Blue Mage has Aetherial Mimicry: Tank it changes to 15%, it is a type of mitigation but it is only strong when a Blue Mage's pseudo-role is tank. It does sound similar to another move from another job, which is Paladin's Intervention, it does the same thing except with 10% reduction in damage taken. If you want to discuss FFXI, everything has the potential to be just about anything so long you have the gear set. Blue Mage takes it a step up and includes spell set as well. Each spells have a different trait that can potentially change Blue Mage's Stat and sometimes with the right spells you can gain a new trait. For example there is a Blue Build that lets you nuke mobs quickly and easily as a group, but you can't perform it unless you have 2 gearset, 1 macro (With the spell you want) and the specific spells that grants you the traits Dual Wield I, Fast Cast 1/2, Magic Attack Bonus I-IV, Defense Bonus, Magic Accuracy Bonus, Magic Evasion Bonus and Conserve MP. This setup will let you solo nuke a group of mobs regardless of level (except it wont work in instances so you need a different gear sets). Not just that but FFXI has sub jobs, meaning you can have one job at 99 and have the abilities of another job up to level 49. Literally the possibilities are endless with that (even though there are some recommended and build and some not) but regardless anything can tank, heal, support or DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
Both Red Mage and Blue Mage have the potential to multi role, however they made Red Mage a DPS only with a bit of utilities. I am ok with that. If Blue Mage were to multi role the possibility would be endless and maybe, just maybe we have a new type of role known as an all rounder. I mean G'raha Tia already counted as an All Rounder role, who knows maybe it can apply to Blue Mage when it becomes a normal job. That being said I am still ok with it being a normal DPS, but again I think people want it to multi-role. Why? I am not sure other than the fact that most of the western MMOs you can multi role with just about any class and emphasis on versatility.
I see Aetherial Mimicry as a form of a stance, like the tank stances we have currently and some job gauges like DRK, MNK, NIN, SAM, BRD, DNC, SCH and SMN have 2 different gauge each of them function differently except some hold stances/buffs SAM, SMN, MNK, SCH and DNC has a counter bar varying between 3 to 5 where they hold aetherflow, the type of Sen, meditation stack and the feathers. DRK, NIN, BRD both have a countdown bar as a second bar. Aetherial Mimicry can work like that alongside changing its role. If they want to go with either a Pure DPS or a Versatile route I am all for either as long we get rid of the Limited Job system as a whole.
Since you love to take druid for a spin I'll give you a few other job examples. The classes you get as a paladin differs depending on your class you pick. We have just about 3 classes allowing us to have 3 roles. Here is the thing, our kit differs from each other. Same goes with Druid, Monk. The kit changes every time you change your sub class. The same could be said with Aetherial Mimicry where certain spells gets buffed depending on the role you mimic. Even then in WoW the sub classes sometimes share the same abilities even when their kit is different.
As for how to pull it off with over 120+ spells it can be done. Make some spells useless, adjust the key ones, the gimmicky spells doesn't need to be change however future bosses must be immune to their effects regardless of where they are FATEs or Dungeons. As for making it into the game with the other iconic jobs, it can be done but the voices need to be louder. PF exclusive is never a good idea unless it is meant for something like Ultimate raids then I can see why. But overall it is not, it is not ideal compared to a duty finder system. One moment a slot could be open and you joined it, next thing you know sorry can't join slot is full. PF is meant to do organized events/raids and there is a lot of PF for raiding in savage and ultimate. Plus we live in an age where everyone has a job, you have to consider some people don't have time to commit to a group/static. Everyone has to understand that PF just works with certain people and sometimes doesn't work with certain people, it is a double edge sword.
I'll be happy when they remove the Limited Job Status off of Blue Mage and never repeat Limited Job ever again. Unless they are transparent and say Limited Job is a type of beta testing for a job. In which case I wouldn't mind it, if it was a type of a Beta Test system then I'll keep voicing my concerns over at the Official forums in both English and Japanese cause I want the game to get better and not set on having mediocre effort put in. -
10-28-2020, 06:35 AMShougunNever said they were incapable of doing it in this game or in FFXI. Obviously I literally said they did in FFXI.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeraTyrantShadic
I said that the sRPG blue's are not every role (and warned that FFXI is dangerous not only because it has a sub job system that we don't have or the weapon sharing that we don't either, but also because they had loaaaddsss of fun with their balance). Blue has situational healing that if you rely on too much could easily lead to a terrible healer, in all the FF games but FFXI of course, especially as the boss might wallop your blue specifically or do party wide damage, they've got support buffs that help take damage, and they deal damage". Yet that's not that special since most other jobs have variations of that, many not as extreme as Blue Mage but some are (like Red Mage or Summoner who both offer help in both departments regularly).
The point was that blue mage has situational healing and some decent support / damage. They're not a main tank, they're not a main healer, main meaning primary function, they've got rounded edges (like summoner or red mage) and they're a pretty decent damage dealer, they're situational, and kind of weird red mage. Red mage is not all three roles either. Just because Paladin has heals doesn't make it a main healer either.
I've never said it can't be, I just said it doesn't have to be in order to carry the heart of a blue mage. Blue mage is not a main tank or main healer, like dragoon from tactics advanced isn't a main tank just because they can absorb damage and raise themselves. Or like while the restoration druid may have better than normal tanking or damage for a healer they're not a tank or DD anymore (they're main healer).
My only point was that while blue could be multi-role it doesn't need to be, to be 'blue'. Since blue isn't stereotypically fully multi-role ("but FFXI" again you've got the sub job system to contend with and the 'special' kind of balance they employed in that game lol).
First- nice job, I like having that big list next to each other with the purpose of the skill even.Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVSS
Second- reading the list, it reads exactly like a job made for offensive support to me.. "just" like Summoner is (in games that don't have jobs, like FFVII or FFX, then read it as the menu sub command).
I could see Summoner become multi-role, especially if you wanted to give summoner a boat load of summons, but it feels absolutely fine under the mostly damage with some support section (and the effects that blue mage offers, many summons have done too, like KO, healing, raising, debuffs, etc). -
10-28-2020, 07:08 AMMaraD_You got to keep in mind, you're not actually meant to have EVERY spell, in the typical offline games. This is why so many of the games gave BLU melee potential, and allow such a jack of all trades stat build.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
They didnt know which spells u would have, and or not have. so BLU needed to adapt to which ever spells the player happened to have, and still be usable. (Strago went full mage, because you had access to spells right from the start)
Also, most jobs had primarily offensive options, so its still not fair to say something is "DPS with X flavor added". Not to say I disagree with your final assessment of what a BLU was to the developers. But those FFs functioned so much more differently, trying to make comparisons in that way is also kind of faulty. Currently, the three versions of BLU we have in multiplayer games have all been extremely good interpretations of classic BLU. (Even if I absolutely hate 14s BLU, and even more so its "Limited" title.)
Theres also the fact that if SE were to ever make a full "Cloth caster tank", they would either have to make a job never before made, or pick from the jobs which come "the closest" to this idea. Similar if they were to ever make a "Melee Healer", there's only so many classic FF jobs to fit the bill, w/o starting to just feel like a reskinned WHM.
I find the current "DPS main, sub tank/healer" style to BLU fine, as well as the "Multi-role" desire that some people have for it.
lastly... about SMN as a DPS, ironically enough... SMN has been my main healer is so many of the FFs, if not most of them lol. Even in FF4, Rydia was more useful spamming asura for me, than having Rosa spam heals.
Kain was the only one who could survive the last boss, so he was a mix between a DPS DRG and reviving the SMN. The SMN revived everyone else with asura 33% of the time.
If that fails, DRG jumps, to survive the next raid wide attack, while the SMN keeps trying to party rez. Rosa spammed Holy. And Cecil spammed his holy sword.
I pretty much used them in reverse of their normal roles. The PLD and WHM were my heavy hitter DPS, and the DRG and SMN were my tank/healers. lol...
(This is also probably because i always run from random encounters, and i was severely under leveled, so it was the ONLY method that worked lol) -
10-28-2020, 07:52 AMShougunQuote:
Originally Posted by MaraD_
I could see how it might feel different based on your play style :P.
My playstyle is stupidly over leveled XD. Like by the time I reached the calm lands in FFX my summons were pretty much a joke in comparison to just slapping stuff with my characters. By the end of the game lulu could have her doll smack something hard enough to overkill it in one hit..
Naturally it provides a different view point lol. To me a job that can kind of heal is not the same as a job that is going to be the bomb at it (white mage), or a job that can kind of tank vs one that'll actually eat the damage when you want it to. Like Dragoon was super buff if (sometimes a big if... haha) your dragonheart was activated (by physical attacks iirc), but if you wanted dragoon to tank you couldn't use jump and fly off screen lol. "BYE GUYS TANK ON YOUR OWN!" hahaha. So the kit wasn't designed to be the guy who takes it all.
Of course Blue, or Summoner as you point out, can be helpful, but they're not the main at it and they're intentionally designed not to be the main (if they were then you'd have a lot more than just a few situational solutions). Like SMN has some heal spells but their cost is often prohibitive compared to a white mage, or they're situational. If you've got some sort of clever situation you can do something a bit awkward of course, like if your characters are strong enough you can start dropping most healing and tanking tasks and just go for "hit as hard as possible as fast as possible" (and that can work as you get a bit too strong). Multi-role certainly is a possible translation, but so is someone who is an offensive support (like Red Mage, and Summoner in general and in specific to our game itself- we've already a role that blue would slide into, you can go the extra mile for the sheer fun / sake of it if you wanted but it's not required since we've already the pre-existing concept blue mage matches up to).
Which also is probably why when people say Blue Mage is so broke, I'm thinking.. all the jobs are broke in the single player series. Blue mage's pacing for brokeness is a bit special compared to other jobs, but all the jobs get broke. Reflect messed up so many encounters lol. Or in FFIX you even had reflect x2 which was ridiculous (x2 damage on stuff that was reflected). "but death is OP" meanwhile I'm facing the boss immune to death but I can gil toss him into the ground and haven't had a use for my gil in like 35 hours.
Relying on Asura sounds both fun and scary, what if she shows the wrong face XD. -
10-28-2020, 08:24 AMDeceptus
Playing off the ST vs AOE categories in the OP, they could even have chains.
The Knife > Blood Drain > Final sting combo is a good one. Thematic and logically goes together.
or AoE
Bomb Toss > Fire Agnon > Flamethrower (or Self Destruct)
And then they could change on some sort of elemental attunement. -
10-28-2020, 06:41 PMADVSSThis is actually funny because pre ShB/SB Summoner had a somewhat workable tank pet, and then 2 dps pets(still does, but i had seen some clever SMN use titan egi as our tank on bosses if tanks died or whatnot, moreso in Deep Dungeon runs, but i wont count those)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
I was thinking the same thing looking over the lists. XI just magnified the amount of spells BLU traditionally had by a long margin, but most seem to say "an attack that does this also" mainly looks like, most a damage/debuffer which i mean.. it seems to fit. I never really considered older BLU a healer, or a tank either to be honest. though i guess the original conception of it, in V did equip swords and wear medium heavy armor. I am still confused about this all 3 roles in one thing. XI BLU's werent even pure i bet. I bet they had /WHM and now they are good tank/healers, as was explained to me about the subjob system
I could be wrong though, naybe BLU was an exclusive job in XI which you had to be pure with no subjob, so they slammed in those non traditional refresh and healing spells to make it semi comparable to the other jobs with actual subjobs. -
10-29-2020, 08:38 AMJiSHin my mind if they ever rework Blue Mage to be a normal job i want them to have combo based MELEE spells, and it can work out like this, and this way they won't have to go out of their way to make new spells. though they probably have to rework the potencies and what not, as it stands BLU's Bread and Butter spells are Sonic Boom (210 potency) and for melee Sharpened Knife (220 potency), i think they have to be more distinct and has tradeoffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
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10-29-2020, 08:45 AMMaraD_Im honestly confused by what you're saying here. I tried rereading it a few times, and Ive given up. ^^;Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVSS
When BLU released in FFXI, I started off using the /WHM SJ. Its usually the best SJ until you reach Lv10+ for parties in the dunes. With Headbutt (constant stunning, to lessen the amount of damage i take) mixed with cocoon (doubling my defense w/o penalty to offense) I noticed I could act just like a PLD tank, spamming pollen to generate threat/heal, and headbutt to stun and do dmg. (Later Bludgeon for large DPS)
BLU tanking worked pretty well, and using /WAR for provoke, and defender worked good enough for all level ranges.
As for BLU as a healer, it was pretty much a better version of SMN/WHM healers. You relied on the cure spells from /WHM until you gained natural heals to target other people.
(I forget what the other heal spells names were, as I only played BLU healer 3 times, at 3 different level ranges.) SMNs start to have issues healing with only cure3 around the upper Lv50 range. But at that point, you really need a solid team to level up, since monsters were no longer push overs. You needed a party who was built reasonably, and not just a bunch of random jobs.
BLU happened to get a potent heal around the Lv50 range, that was closer to that of cure4, or at least stronger than cure3. So they were better than SMNs for main healing imo.
BLU also had an A rank in its own magic (obviously) which means they could enfeeble mobs better than WHMs could. So weakening the mob enough to not kick the crap out of your tank was very helpful. Lastly, BLUs could maintain MP better than RDMs with MP Drain Kiss, and a Dark Staff.
I forget how, but there was a way to make it better than normal, but most BLUs never bothered doing it, despite the massive DPS increase it was to do it. I usually did ~85% of the parties dps. (PTs were 6 people. 3 DPS, and the other 3 were tank, healer, refresher. but i doubt the tank/healer/refresher did 1% of the parties DPS, so it was just in comparison to the other 2 DPS) BLUs either did absolutely terrible DPS, or absolutely broken DPS. It depended on the enemy type you were fighting. This MP Drain kiss method only worked on certain types of enemies(that had MP), and sometimes ppl chose to fight different mobs, so as not to compete with other groups.
Back on point, a BLU healer could go far longer with heal spamming than a normal WHM. Also if the refresher was a BRD, it was possible to debuff the enemy as the BLU, where as WHM would struggle.
BLUs biggest problem was that is was never actually great at anything. It COULD tank, but its threat was far lower than PLD RDM NIN or DRK tanks. (most ppl didnt allow RDMs or DRKs to tank, since they didnt realize how much threat they could generate) The onlys job in the game that generated less threat than a BLU were the pet jobs (excluding PUP, im not sure which could generate more, but probably BLU still)
It COULD DPS, but it was worse at ranged/magical DPS than the ranged/caster DPS. It COULD melee, but was worse at it than almost all the melee (exception being pet jobs, as some of them did worse, or roughly tied with BLU)
It COULD heal, but be worse than RDM and WHM (And eventually SCH) IDK about DNC, as I know BLU went through a lot of changes after I left, and I know DNC went through a bit as well.
The only role it couldnt do too well, was be a refresher. (I believe that has changed since i left) I did however play the role of refresher twice. (At Lv50+) because no BRD or RDM was looking for group, and both groups thought they could actually kill a monster w/o a refresher. (Both wiped on the 1st monster pull.) I switched to /BRD to give a single +1mp refresh, and focused on debuffs/buffs/heals, in order to keep the healers MP going through the fight, so we could chain monsters.
(I actually got kicked out of the 1st group, because "My DPS wasnt high enough" and they only wanted me for my DPS, despite BLUs being terrible DPS at the place they picked to grind. I couldnt possibly DPS w/o MP, and the tank always died before the mob got to half HP, since the healer was always out of MP. I switched to /BRD, and we were chaining mobs now, even if only to chain3. After that group, another group saw what I was doing, and wanted me to replace their RDM who logged out. We continued on chaining just fine, roughly 5-6, which was the average. The prior group got another DPS, and they went back to being unable to kill a single monster, and eventually broke apart.)
Anyways, most endgame groups didnt like BLU since its "Jack of all trades" just meant they had someone who wasnt good at anything. BLU always had a role it could switch to, based on the fight, to be more useful than "useless".
In omega or ultima, it was an HP/INT based caster using Breath spells. (But not in both, it was only one of those 2, i forget which. for the other, it was /WHM healer, since it couldnt DPS) In some sorta ToAU boss, it stacked defense/attack, and was essentially a melee DPS with Canonball.
In one of the dragon fights, it could only tank or heal. most groups already had a PLD or NIN tank, so they were usually asked to be a healer, despite being more useful as a tank in that fight. (Though still worse than a PLD for that fight)
I got lucky, and my dynamis group let me do any role I wanted as BLU, and I honestly changed it all the time, depending on how lazy I felt. (They preferred BLUs to be /whm healing)
In smaller fights, like story boss fights, BLU excelled at being too much of everything, and bosses in story fights had lower stats than normal mobs, but way more HP. So BLUs spells were almost never resisted, and allowed for their broken nature to really shine. They could be anything, but they were almost always DPS with a few broken support/healer/tank abilities. (Dependent on fight)
I know BLU went through a lot of changes when I left, and they raised the level cap. I heard it was more of a solo job, thats good solo, but sucks in parties, since its just weaker at everything, but got more healing/tanking/support options than it had when i left. -
10-29-2020, 09:01 AMShougunYeah in FFXI you had this concept of a sub job which would in essence give you half your level of the other job. So if you were like level 40 you'd /also/ have level 20 of the other in your kit. This is how Summoner would main as healer because summoners in that game had crazy mp and so they then sub job white mage and spam their cures. Emnity in that game was easy to obtain so spamming low level spells allowed you to dodge that issue too, like if you were casting big spells you could easily steal hate - cast benediction and you stole the whole zone's hate lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVSS
So Blu could become main healer after they learned magic fruit which was akin to cure 3.5 but low mana cost and white mage as their subjob. Plus some cure related items. Of course in the game not only did they have subjobs but weapons weren't as strict, so you could have a bow as a Samurai for example. This allowed for some quite high diversity in builds. FFXIV is very very strict in comparison, but it makes the builds easier to tighten up for both balance but also mechanical interest (cool mechanics that relate to each other).
BLU if you weren't trying to do something funky was absolutely a damage dealer first though, and they were pretty good at it. But due to the subjob system you could do some funky stuff. I still remember when Dragoon / Samurai allowed you to basically endlessly spam penta thrust due to the TP gain from Samurai lol.
Also in general since you commented to me you weren't sure what they mean about all roles in one, I think what they're describing is this idea that limited -> normal.. like literally as it is (with maybe a few tweaks). So that means Blue Mage would be able to be a tank, healer, or DD based on what role they queued for and the Mimicry they had loaded. -
10-29-2020, 11:22 AMMaraD_Technically not "funky" as that was the sole intentional design of how DRG was meant to be played. The interviews explained they ruined DRG by doing that, but also had the mentality that the players would eventually come up with a tactic they didnt forsee, and so they usually didnt bother fixing "nerfed" jobs. Only "too OP" jobs/abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
Of course the players didnt come up with a work around, but the developers came up with an alternative way to fix DRG, which was an indirect fix.
(1) Help all 2handers accuracy in ToAU.
(2) Make very low HP enemies who were weak to piercing damage. (This also helped THF, as it was also considered rather weak, and could use piercing dmg on the same enemy variety)
When it came to endgame, DRG was mostly fine as it was, so they didnt need to fix it for endgame bosses, so thats why they stuck to this halfhearted bandaid fix.
EDIT: according to the devs, regarding BLU, western players used BLU as a melee DPS. Japanese players mostly saw it as an equivalent to SMN. A job thats meant to be a Caster, but better off being used as a healer. (Most JP groups didnt let BLU DPS) The Devs said they personally saw BLU as mostly a Caster DPS. They mentioned this, as justification for nerfing BLUs melee DPS, and buffing nukes. BLU did need the buff to nukes, but the melee nerf was uneeded, as BLU was already one of the weakest DPS on normal mobs past Lv27. BLU didnt get most of its magical DPS until later, so this left BLU with a large level gap of being a really crappy DPS. (Roughly half the DPS of a normal damage dealer) and other gaps at the tail end, and start of this gap, which made it just slightly weaker. (maybe 20%? These are of course rough estimates)
So the devs did confirm there were intended to be DPS (Caster, not melee mage) but were also given options to be helpful in other fronts. (Melee options were intended for tanking, not for DPS, since they assumed u would be in melee range if u tanked, and melee spells should be weaker, since they didnt have cast bars. Im pretty sure they embraced the melee BLU at some point after i quit) -
10-29-2020, 11:47 AMShougunQuote:
Originally Posted by MaraD_
Really really early on in FFXI the multi hit combos used to give more tp back, so with samurai dragoon could near endlessly go from weapon skill to weapon skill. You're right that they made other changes to two handed weapons and stuff, but long long ago tp from multi hit attacks got a bit silly and they went out of their way to nerf it (iirc monk had this with their relic and their 8 fold attacks). Although that they nerfed it wasn't the point, just that by having certain sub jobs your play style shifted massively.
That we don't have that system, so the variety FFXI offered doesn't necessarily translate well here and that the variety wasn't a reflect on your main job as much as it was a reflection on your main & sub job together (like SMN/WHM makes you a main healer, but SMN on its own in that game was not a main healer). BLU / WHM is a main healer but BLU / NIN is definitely not.
Which again isn't to say you can't have blue be kind of special here in FFXIV, it's just that using FFXI comes with a whole bunch of funk that we don't have here and so BLU / WHM isn't necessarily == BLU. BLU is == to BLU (so like in FFXI if you never added a subjob to your BLU they'd be an awful main healer but still not a bad damage dealer). Although I want to add I agree with you that often the funk was intended lol.
As an aside I played BLU as a caster first (most of my time spent casting, although of course I absolutely took advantage of weapon skills and self combo'ing if there wasn't someone to work with), and didn't have anyone try to correct me on the western way to play (calling it that since you mentioned it like that, honestly first time I heard of it, but I also didn't read much in the way of guides)- but my name sort of got me into a lot JP parties even if I didn't talk almost at all so.. lol /shrug. -
10-29-2020, 12:42 PMMaraD_Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
If i remember correctly, it was roughly 50 TP return. It wasnt as endless as MNK with the relic weapon. (which literally was) But I think some of the better examples of "funky" SJ stuff, would more technically be NIN, since they quite literally didnt intend players to use NIN tanks, nor /NIN for its survivability for tanking. (Which to the other poster, Ninjas Utsusemi spell allowed them to dodge the next 3 attacks. they had another version of this that gave them another 3 evades. When the job came out, i believe it was something like teir1 was 4 evades, and teir2 was 5 evades. This let them chain them together infinitely, never getting hit. So of course everyone was JOB/NIN to make it easy to just never get hit.
They nerfed NIN, but they didnt want to completely ruin peoples new found strategy, so they compromised with 3+3, instead of 4+5. You still need a refresher to give the NIN haste, and the NIN needed to gear for more evasion/haste, in order to limit the amount of times they got hit inbetween evasions. They also allowed AoE spells to break all evasions in a single attack.
For the same expansion, they released SAM, which they intended players to use as a Tank. (BTW this is the 1st time they made a tank job, because WAR and PLD werent actually intended to tank. They intentionally designed the game to try and make it impossible to hold hate for too long, so as to have enemies bounce between all the melee DPS. More on this at the bottom) Not only would SAM be a terrible tank in comparison to PLD, most players were tired of using WAR as a tank, because it just simply put wasnt good enough to mitigate enough dmg to actually kill enemies effectively. SAM would have barely been better than WAR. So everyone now used a bunch of DPS, or WARs, who subbed NIN, and japanese parties would have the mob bounce around to different melee DPS, so as to have it eat everyone's evasions, and try to let no one actually take dmg. Western players refused to try this for many years, with maybe a handful per server who would try it. Western players would only try the next tactic of 2 WAR/NINs, who would bounce the mob between them. This was reasonably effective. A bit risky at time, due to the amount of damage they took (they were geared for Attack/Acc, not Defense) but ironically enough, westerners were the ones who decided to make a full party of "DPS with /NIN" for Lv75 party content. With the JP players usually refusing to do it for a long while. (But the JP players were still very effective at the old method, while most western players couldnt use the old method, w/o lossing efficiency by massive amounts.)
As for the whole "1st tank job", they intentionally tried to make the game not have a dedicated tank. Due to how old FFs were designed to just have the "Front row" jobs take hits. (Its more complex than that, but w/e) Threat was designed to decay over time, along with a players threat going down massively if they take dmg, the more dmg they took, the more threat lost. This would ensure the mob jumps around to different players. Cures also generated 0 threat, so healers never had to worry about their threat. BLM nuke threat was also slightly lower back then, and pretty much WARs provoke was meant for emergencies, or for BLMs heavy nukes at Lv50.
Elemental magical "Weapon Skills" were the most powerful attacks, and players quickly realized that WHM could do as much DPS as a DPS. So SE nerfed WHMs DPS, and nerfed ALL magical "Weapon Skills" (They were considered absolutely useless for years, due to how weak they were) They gave cures enmity, and magical attacks more enmity.
This lead to players stacking WARs, or /WAR for provoke, since healers were pretty much tanking 20-50% of the fight. IF the enemy landed a single tank buster on them, it was over. (Most melee cant survive tank busters from mobs, only 2 could at that level. MNK (with its insainely high HP) or PLD (with its higher defense than WAR) PLD still died maybe one in 50 tank busters, if they werent perfectly geared/topped off. WAR seemed to die 1 in 8, until they got an ability to double defense, then they didnt have that issue until Lv50+~ish)
PLD would get hurt, and then heal itself. This made the monster go right back to attacking the PLD. Which in turn lead to the PLD needing to heal themselves again. This never ending loop turned PLD into the default tank. So once NIN came out, "not getting hit" means the tank doesnt lose the threat from getting hit. Which in turn helpped them "not lose threat". Of course they had to gain the threat, since their DPS was really bad as a non caster, or non physical ranged DPS. (most ppl used them for melee, which they were nearly terrible at, except in some level ranges) NIN hardly died, but it was easy for a good DPS to pull threat and tank/die. PLD could still die easily, but it dealt no DPS since it spam healed itself.
And thats when SE decided to make SAM, a weaker version of WAR, with an additional weak mitigation option. If you paired them together, a SAM/WAR would have more mitigation than a WAR/SAM or a WAR/MNK. But with how fragile a PLD was, and PLD was at least twice as good as a WAR, a SAM/WAR being only... 10% better wasnt good enough, and NIN on the other hand was a game changer.
I dont mean thats what everyone told u to do, but just what was popular, and how the west generally saw it. Everyone saw the trailers and were like "OMG, its the melee caster we always wished RDm were!!!1!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
I do know a few people eventually refused to invite BLUs if they weren't /THF (which, if u were going to melee, was one of the best SJ options honestly. But for caster was a terrible SJ)
Like I said, I played BLU as every role at some point or another, and thats what I loved most about it. Id intentionally try to be different roles for CoP missions, just to see what I could do. (As time went on, I realize CoP missions were actually easier than ud imagine, and almost any job combo was possible, even having NO HEALERS! Only 2 fights were actually hard enough to limit your party comp options. (Omega/Ultima, and the Pots fight right before the final boss) -
10-29-2020, 12:52 PMShougunLike for all the nostalgia of talking about FFXI lol. But it also reminds me, well more re-solidifies, how awkwardly balanced and the weird expectations they had for players, ... almost that feeling no one tested the game as a "player" before releasing the design. Not to say I didn't enjoy it, just a feeling that they were designing stuff in a vacuum, maybe even a vacuum within their own company (like one person's input and testing and that's that).Quote:
Originally Posted by MaraD_
Maybe its a culture thing like "okay we made it do this so we are going to test it like we made it", but at least from my perspective that seems like.. ye...a..h..... so... whatever you wanted your users to do is probably not what they're going to do lol.
Like ninja tank and their Pikachu face when players used it as such. Feels as if some higher up was like "yeah this will be great, add it in boyysszz" and someone may have thought to say something but was silent and then later they're shocked that they just made the best tank in the game on accident. For penta thrust I think it was 60 TP, but honestly doesn't matter lol. Was just a random example stuck in my mind where sub jobs changed how you'd approach things (a job may be tank, healer, or dd, all because of a few choice picked pieces of gear and a sub job), but there are so many examples (and many intended). -
10-29-2020, 06:31 PMADVSSSorry for the confusion, but literally as explained to me, almost any job could fill roles with proper subjobs it seems. Ninja evade tanks, Summoner healers, etc. but if there were no subjobs in xi, then what would you classify it as? Was sort of my point(you elaborated exactly what i meant when you said you discovered that by giving it /war etc it could actually tank). The same with RDM rage when it was a caster dps that occaisionally moved in for melee in xiv. XI has a cool concept, that the cross class system in xiv -could- have emulated for more role definition and gameplay flexibility, but alas it didnt. I had typed up a "what if" years ago if they had taken from 2.0 the idea of creating job paths through classing, similarly to sch/smn, but probably moreso in the vein of a hyper customizable but limited XI - based cross class system to create jobs(meaning, warriors didnt just use big axe, they had a variety of weapons, for which 'weaponskills' would come from, not level progression in the job necessarily. The skills gained from level/job progression would be mostly what cooldowns(like 2.0s cross class skills but less restrictive) and traits[like equip 2 handed weapons, or equip 2 weapons]). Started off with 8 disciples of war, and 8 disciples of magic. Made over 44 jobs from combinations.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaraD_
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10-30-2020, 01:36 AMVolsungrSince i can't reply on all the FF11 matters as i didnt have much experience on it, i'll just try to highlight the thing i find interesting :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
i don't remember where i said my piece about combo system for caster but i agree because we don't have a caster that have combo-mechanic as its core yet. as for the melee combo.. the concern is will blue mage in that case take over a melee slot? but if that's the case do we still need a melee for the extra 1% dps boost in party bonus? or will it count as caster?. -
10-30-2020, 02:41 AMTeraTyrantShadicSingle Player Final Fantasy is very different to a Massive Multiplayer Online Final Fantasy. Of course they aren't a reliable main tank or healer in the FF series (Mainly Single Player), because there is no such thing as Roles in those games (Other than saying which is which in your head), you had to know which job can hold aggro, which can do tons of damage and which can heal. Same can be applied to FFXI, there is no role assignment or a strict role; the only other way to identify is through what job does what. FFXI is a fine example to take inspiration from and there is nothing dangerous about it. We are looking Blue Mage as a whole not with a sub job (We can ignore the sub job aspect as it is not present in FFXIV), we are looking at how they have constructed to fit Blue Mage into the game and really the only reason why Blue Mage is OP is mainly because of the gearset. Any class is OP with the right gear set. If they are naked (No armor or weapon) they are just as weak and similar to the other classes. FFXIV gear works differently as well, even as a Level 60 Blue Mage we use the Augmented Shire Philosopher set which is shared by all DPS Caster Class. So we can ignore the gears as they are two different things between FFXIV and FFXI. As for their balancing they added new spells, removed some from previous FF games and added ones that didn't even exist in past FF games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
All single player FF games (From 5 - 10) have Blue Mages but they are not a Main Tank or Healer but they are situational. Fair enough but this is an MMO, SMN and RDM can be in the same department as Blue Mage in terms of support utility with heals and buffs and debuffs. However Red Mage and Summoner are not all 3 roles, with Blue Mage it can be. With over 280+ spells in FFXI there is so many some of it even allow it to boost it defense up or outright mitigate damage; heal the entire party or remove statuses (For the record White Wind heals with (MaxHP/7)*2 which is far different from any of the single player Blue Mages' White Wind); dealing massive damage with both its own spells and weapon skill solo combos. There is even guides as how to tank as a Blue Mage or even how to heal as a Blue Mage (Though the healing guide is hard to find but it is doable with WHM being its sub job and with Magic Fruit (Cure IV) it can really be good at healing with the right gearset and at a cheaper cost than a normal Cure IV in FFXI and pair it with the Auto-Refresh Trait and you got yourself an infinite healer.). All of it is situational but it is very much so doable. I am not saying you didn't say that I am saying it to clear the record and the fact of the reason why people wanted it as a Multi-role Job.
People want it as a Multi-role because of FFXI. Sure in FFXIV it doesn't have to be a Multi-role job. Again, it can be pure DPS or it can be a multi-role. I am fine with either way as long they get rid of the limited job system and never do that again. Multi-role is not in the majority of the Blue Mages in the FF single player series but with FFXI being the only MMO with Blue Mage (Other than FFXIV) people tend to expect a repeat from the older games. Take something good from older games and make a better and improved version in the newer titles that is the expectation set for Blue Mage in FFXIV. The heart of the Blue Mage is literally as long it learns magic from monsters and it is versatile and really that is the heart of it and I don't mind if it was a Pure DPS or a Multi-role but just get rid of Limited Job is all I am saying is that I am suggesting ways it can be done. Versatile can just mean anything, but with FFXI it literally means taking up all 3 roles and having a variety of spells for different situations as it has a double meaning in FFXI. In single player games though it has one meaning different spells for different situations, there is only one meaning because there is no such thing as a role (mentioned in the game) and you'll have to figure out what each job does and what they are capable of. Plus the final nail on the coffin to seal it to be expected as a multi-role was Aetherial Mimicry and really they tried hard with the 5.15 update to make it doable with group play and yet it is still not perfect.
TL: DR
Single Player ideas ≠ Massive Multiplayer Online ideas, Single Player games have no such things as roles and can only guess at what job does what (Without a wiki or guide). Ignore Sub's job and gear as they are not the same as in FFXIV and only focus on how Blue Mage was made in FFXI. Any class in FFXI is op because of the gearset.
Agreed that in the Single Player FFs there is no main tank or heal. SMN and RDM can have much utility and support like BLU but cannot be all 3 roles whereas BLU can with the right gearset and spell set for tanking and healing which RDM and SMN doesn't have the option to change their spell set (In FFXI).
The need for multi-role by many is because of FFXI and with Aetherial Mimicry reinforcing that it can multi-role in FFXIV. I don't mind if it can be a pure DPS or a multi-role, I just want Limited Job to be gone and never be repeated again. Versatility has 2 meanings in the MMO (In both role and spells) while in Single Player games it only has one meaning (Spells only).
WoW Comparison
Stop comparing FF to WoW Classes; they are objectively different. Their move set changes every time you change your job spec, you have to get different gear for each spec because of the stats. Plus they are only a main healer when you set your spec to restoration, you can easily change from restoration to guardian and become a main tank. For the record every class and spec have normal DPS because everyone has to DPS while either they tank or heal. Seriously that is what is happening with MMOs nowadays everyone including Tanks and Healers have to DPS they may not be as strong as a DPS but they have to. As for Restoration with normal tanking, they don't have the added enmity as that will only apply when they become a guardian druid and when their kit changes so that their moves generate aggro. Also in WoW we have a class/spec tree and in FFXIV we don't as the games work very differently in terms of job traits and kit.
If we're gonna relate Blue Mage and Druid, we can't because Blue Mage right now is a DPS role and can do everything ranging from Main/Second Tank, Healing and DPS. All the player needs to do is change the spell kit, for tanking we have... The Look, Ice Spikes, Veil of the Whorl, Diamondback, Mighty Guard, Devour, Frog Legs & Cactguard and if you want to go far fetched Gobskin (Though it is better when it has Aetherial Mimicry: Healer). The rest of the spells can be just about anything, with what I have given that leaves 16 more slots left. For the optimized DPS rotation you need Bristle, Off-Guard/Peculiar Light, Moonflute, Song of Torment, Magic Hammer, J Kick, Eruption, Devour, Shock Strike, Surpanakha and Glass dance which leaves with 6 more slots (not going to repeat for devour). So we can fill that in with Angel Whisper, White Wind, Bomb Toss, Flying Sardine, Final Sting and Aetherial Mimicry. Plus Veil of the Whorl and Ice Spikes are rarely used by tanks so it can be replaced with something else leaving 2 more slots to be used/replaced.
Now we encounter a problem where it can do everything with this spell kit. Funny how it is not the same with Druid in WoW. Where you have to change specs and get different separate gear for each spec, each spec tree has only 3 different options. Blue Mage? Nah we only need Augmented Shire Philosopher set and we can fight with this one kit and excel at just about every role and we have an unlimited option of spells with 24 active spells as our hard limit... Hence why I go back to saying Aetherial Mimicry is one way of balancing it so that they are forced to take in spells more related to the roles. In 5.4 there could be more healing and tanking spells and if that were the case they can multi-role and prevent the hybrid roles and forcing players choosing 1 role to play in group content and excelling at that one role, while in solo content they can have whatever kit they want to have and bring it to Deep Dungeons, Eureka, Treasure Hunt Dungeons, Bozja, Squadron and Masked Carnival. Another reason why I think a Job Gauge is really needed especially when the build up gauge is being used universally with almost every job is that it can work in tandem with Aetherial Mimicry when you have a certain amount of points it can boost a spell. Also you can't play all roles in FFXI not especially when you are doing high end content, where you want to maximize specific traits for specific build and gear sets for Blue Mage there are two main types of set, AoE Nuking and DD. They already solved their balancing issue and nowadays it's SoA (Seeker of Adoulin) and Ambuscade content that brings in high-tier content. You can multi-role (Doing all roles at the same time) but you'll just be pissing people off, because people expect Blue Mages in FFXI to have a DD set already for high end content (Alongside having Almace and Tizona). So pick one role and stick with it as you can either go in as a Healer, Tank, DD or Support (As traits need to be maximized). If you want another multi-role job look no further with Rune fencer and Geomancer, I can be a Support Healer as a Geomancer (When they are actually meant to be a DPS Support). Rune Fencer can be both DPS and Tank but still have to pick one role or the other when doing group content. Another thing unlike FFXIV in FFXI you can swap gears mid battle, hence why it is essential when you play in FFXI you have to learn to gear swap with macros. FFXIV allows you to swap gears during battle back in 2.0 but now you can't anymore after a patch in ARR.
TL: DR
FFXIV Jobs ≠ WoW Classes and Specs, stop trying to relate or compare the two.
Blue Mage ≠ Druid, Monk and Paladin. Blue Mage kit and be freely changed; WoW's Paladin, Druid, Monk can be freely changed but not like Blue Mage and can only be changed through changing their specs and their spec trees and it is much more limited than Blue Mage.
Blue Mage with 24 spells slots can main all 3 roles with 2 spare slots. 5.4 could possibly introduce more spells for Tanking and Healing as a Blue Mage. Only do one role when participating in FFXI's High end content otherwise you piss people off regardless of the job. Gear swapping is crucial in FFXI while in FFXIV you can do that and the game works differently. -
10-30-2020, 02:55 AMShougunThey had jobs that took damage in single player games, like Paladin with cover. OR jobs that took abuse better (and so were tanky like, like dragoon was sort of if you got hit by a physical attack or you weren't using jump- which means it was more a bruiser than a tank as it wasn't the focus but something it branched into a little bit).Quote:
Originally Posted by TeraTyrantShadic
There is absolutely a way to translate a job's general focus from a single player to multiplayer. Otherwise again you'd consider white mage a tank because it could cast stoneskin and that could tank, so eeehy you can make white mage a tank and white mage has always been 'multi-role' (which is incorrect, white mage has had good damage spells, and some good damage reduction spells, but it's clearly a healer).
Blue Mage had some damage reduction spells but it never had tank status (without FFXI), the damage reduction spells also were not on self but applied to the party / target (like vanish or mighty guard). Blue mage reduced damage via buffs, not by soaking it to the face with superior hp pool. And even if you could reduce damage enough so blue felt tanky like then it meant your actual jobs focused more on taking damage would therefore also feel more tanky (mighty guard on Paladin > mighty guard on blue mage).
You keep bringing up FFXI but even with all 280 spells without the sub job system and flexible gear system blue mage was still very obviously a damage dealer with support skills. Only because of those two systems which we do not have, and are not core parts of blue mage, that you could make something like a main heal blue. Otherwise main heal blue was pretty terrible in comparison to a white mage.
We do not have sub job system. We do not have flexible gear. We only have the main job. Main job blue in FFXI with inflexible gear and no sub job would never be a main heal candidate.
As for your gripe about WoW I am cognizant WoW is not FFXIV, it was to show you a job (druid) that is highly versatile but focused on a specific goal is not main in those other goals just because they're abnormally good at them.
Further the example is pretty good since like FFXI blue WoW druid set to a specific set has high variety but is focused on one task. Until you add weird items and sub job can you switch your druid spec, figuratively speaking. I'm not sure where you're having so much trouble seeing the relationship of changing your kit and gear in FFXI to changing your kit and gear in WoW- literally both jobs have to do this to change their roles. You WILL NEVER be a main healer blue if you left your DD gear and DD kit on in blue. You will also never be a main healer in WoW if you've your tank gear and tank spec on. Changing your spec is akin to changing your sub job, changing your gear is akin to .. changing your gear. The comparison is easy and clear, I've no idea where you could have a hiccup in that.
Blue Mage has abnormally good support, JUST like Summoner and Red Mage, that doesn't make those jobs all three roles at once. Only in games that allowed combinations was blue actually another role. At any moment you couldn't do that then blue wasn't. Blue in the single player games is just like a Druid specced to a specific talent tree, decent at all three tasks but only good at one (this makes them main on only one thing, they're not all three roles all at once). In a general sense I'd say Summoner was better at diversity than Blue Mage since Summoner's tend to be far more consistent (it's going to heal well, not it might so long as your blue doesn't get slapped first, etc).
Similarly FFXI was the first time Blue Mage had kit building, because one game made a new concept doesn't make it the core of the job now. If you take blue mage as a whole cross the FF series blue mage isn't about kit building. It's possible they want to change that though, but speaking generally this isn't required and frankly at this moment seems like a great way to lower the quality of gameplay (because DD blue is only vaguely similar to actual jobs at similar levels in terms of quality mechanics, while say tank is massively worse, and healer seems to be of interest simply because they removed the damage skills from our actual healers- else it would be worse too).
The many reasons that made Blue multi role in FFXI is also what made other jobs multi role too, never before that was blue mage truly multi role. It wasn't blue that did that, it was the gear and sub job system. Other jobs got to multi-role at the benefit of that system too. If you took away those two systems in FFXI, that are not related to blue, then blue cannot multi-role anymore. Like how in the single player games blue was supplemental and istuaional healer / defensive support (via buffs, not actual tanking, unlike some jobs that had the big hp pools).
FFXIV is honestly the first version of blue that can actually multi-role on it's own without help from other systems. Which is fine, to the first point I made to you it's not like they can't do that concept, but when asking for normal I find it irrelevant to having a blue experience for it to also be able to multi-role in normal content. Normal blue that was just a offensive support would be just like the blue mages that existed before it (even FFXI, because without sub jobs and diverse gear which we don't have BLU doesn't get to multi-role, he's offensive support). If it happens (three role normal blue), and is actually fun, cool (though with the state of the system currently I am not impressed with what they achieved and so I have my doubts, only DD role blue gets near a normal job in terms of mechanical quality). If it doesn't happen and they make normal only one role (and limited can be how it is or whatever), then also fine. -
10-30-2020, 04:09 AMTeraTyrantShadicThere is a way, but translating what job is what role in an MMO is not my point, I said "there is no such thing as Roles in those games" meaning there is no ROLE/ROLE ASSIGNMENT in a single player game, meaning you had to guess what each job does without a guide. When it comes to FFXI there is no roles like FFXIV, without a guide you have to figure it out what job does what and from there people can take a guess or what. Which thankfully with your example is the reason why in modern MMOs we have roles it is to clarify new players that are introduced to the series for the first time to know what job is a tank, healer and DPS. FFXI acts like a single player game with group content obviously you have to figure out what White Mage does and really it is not a multi-role, only reason why it would have good damage and mitigation is so that it can do some of the old content alone (If possible).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
On your third paragraph I was talking about FFXI and there is no tank stance in FFXI for Blue Mage. When I say they have all sorts of mitigation I only mean FFXI and not the single player games. When have I mentioned the single player games other than when I was talking about roles.
Your point being? Each of the paragraph in the post I made are separate points... You had literally mixed paragraph 1 with paragraph 2. I said ignoring Sub job and gear all of the jobs in FFXI the jobs would have been weak or similar to one another. So you now want me to put into bullet points when I clearly separate the paragraphs for a reason.
You were clearly comparing WoW's Druid to FFXIV's Blue Mage and I was answering to that. Now you are going off tangent implying I am comparing FFXI's Blue Mage to WoW's Druid, can you stop twisting my points please and stay on topic? Even in the tl;dr I said "FFXIV Jobs ≠ WoW Classes and Specs". I said it can all do 3 roles at the same time in FFXIV with 1 kit and it acts differently to WoW's druid. I have not made a comparison between FFXI's Blue Mage and WoW's Druid. You wanna compare it with FFXI's Blue Mage and WoW's Druid that is fine by me, but in the previous and past posts with you (interacting with me). We were comparing it to FFXIV's Blue Mage not FFXI's Blue Mage.
I said they are all 3 roles at once in FFXIV, when they have the kit I have just shown in my post. "If we're gonna relate Blue Mage and Druid, we can't because Blue Mage right now is a DPS role and can do everything ranging from Main/Second Tank, Healing and DPS. All the player needs to do is change the spell kit, for tanking we have... The Look, Ice Spikes, Veil of the Whorl, Diamondback, Mighty Guard, Devour, Frog Legs & Cactguard and if you want to go far fetched Gobskin (Though it is better when it has Aetherial Mimicry: Healer). The rest of the spells can be just about anything, with what I have given that leaves 16 more slots left. For the optimized DPS rotation you need Bristle, Off-Guard/Peculiar Light, Moonflute, Song of Torment, Magic Hammer, J Kick, Eruption, Devour, Shock Strike, Surpanakha and Glass dance which leaves with 6 more slots (not going to repeat for devour). So we can fill that in with Angel Whisper, White Wind, Bomb Toss, Flying Sardine, Final Sting and Aetherial Mimicry. Plus Veil of the Whorl and Ice Spikes are rarely used by tanks so it can be replaced with something else leaving 2 more slots to be used/replaced.".
I didn't say it FFXI made versatility the core of it. I said it made people have expectations. There is a hard difference between expectations and core, nowhere in my posts says or imply that multi-role is the core of Blue Mage. Not just that but I also said it made FFXI had two meanings which then lead to people having a different expectation of it compared to the Single Player series. Also in single player games there was no kit build but FFXI has kit building. It is like people were having expectations from the FFXI's Blue Mage rather than the single player games. That is where it all started, FFXI's Blue Mage has set a standard of expectation for a Blue Mage in an MMO. Single Player games did not but FFXI has set the precedent and standard of expectation for fans to expect what Blue Mage will be like in an MMO or in future MMOs related to the FF series.
It never was a multi-role in the first place, but with how players created Blue Mage in FFXI, it became an iconic multi-role job in FFXI which then snowballed into people having high expectations of the job being a multi-role in future MMOs.
They can be multi-role or pure DPS job in normal content, there is no doubt about that. However that isn't my opinion, my opinion is that it can either be a pure DPS or a Multi-role job as long we don't have to see or use limited job ever again. -
10-30-2020, 05:27 AMShougunNo ignoring sub jobs and items all jobs would definitely not be the similar to each other. . Each job in FFXI had a clear goal that may or may have not been horribly balanced lol. Then with the gear and sub jobs there were many ways to change the job to fit your needs. Ninja without a sub job was not a Red Mage without a sub job which was not a Black Mage nor a Ranger nor a Paladin.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeraTyrantShadic
Role assignments in single player game weren't clear made by the developers but they absolutely existed under design philosophy (else we wouldn't be able to describe them into roles so neatly like pretty much all the wiki's do on jobs). Even if you washed it out a bit the point still stands the blue mage did not 'do it all well' such that it counted as a multi-role (it wasn't multi-role till other systems in FFXI allowed it to be, and this wasn't due to blue mage but the other systems). Blue mage did damage fairly well and healing situationally and support (not tanking) pretty well.
Blue Mage has had versatility sure, but it's not until FFXIV that it actually multi-roled on it's own laurels. Blue Mage in FFXI was only good at doing other roles due to other systems, otherwise it was a damage dealer with a bit of variety on the side. I would accept that you say "so most of our jobs are kind of like that with their own flare" and yeah look at our current job break down, we've got 4 tanks and 3 healers and the rest of the jobs are variations of DD lol.
The point is FFXI's blue is not a multi-role job without the sub job system, and at that point many other jobs were also multi-role. BLU in and of itself in FFXI was not multi-role, people would tell you to get lost if you came with BLU as a healer if there was no sub job to support it's short comings (meanwhile white mage would be allowed in). Translating FFXI's BLU here and making it multi-role means you're also expanding the concept of BLU (which some may consider an upgrade). So if people expect that blue mage has to multi-role then they're conflating multiple systems into one job, and my point is blue mage historically and generally is not a multi-role job on it's own.
This entire conversation was started because you wanted to correct me on the idea that Blue Mage historically is not the role/concept I said it was, which through the entire history of blue until this game was clearly an offensive support job because they'd be laughed out of groups (and not used in single player) for main taking the role of healer or tank (concepts that did exist, particularly main healer, main tank was more like main dude that would survive through insane abuse just in case you needed to raise or something, or Paladin with cover). You may say but "versatility" and yeah I agree to that but versatility does not mean multi-role job. Just because you can offer some support doesn't make you a healer, you need many skills to do that. Of course with FFXIV it's the first time it is under the limited system at least, you may say this is a new page in the history for Blue Mage, a glorious page where we should be, where the new intention is multi-role. Personally if they can't make the job more exciting I don't think it was worth it though, would much rather have a well designed single role than one okay, one eh, and one bad normal job.
And that's where I started with this is that I don't see normal blue having to be multi-role to be the iconic and that personally I've far greater hope in blue if they focus on making it a single role (because if they translate their current set up to normal I've a feeling it's going to be awful for a role or two and in general less interesting than it could have been if they just designed the kit straight forward rather than play either god in balance to have real kit building or pseudo kit building for easy balance). Happy to leave the balanced for party experience limited multi-role concept alone, but I've no faith in it for DF content (or in general).
Finally I'm not twisting your points. You're just fitting my point to something I didn't say (when discussing FFXIV vs Druid I speak different than when FFXI vs Druid, or in general, the stationary value of Druid is nice as it has many similar concepts and when points are irrelevant, like in FFXIV i'm aware our armor is rigid so I don't think of gear in that situation, then the comparison works well for me visually). You said stop comparing WoW to FFs, that's FF in general (and at this point I've compared every blue mage to Druid). I responded to your points out of order simply because it's how I recalled them. Why I didn't go point by point is because I find the whole conversation kind of silly, never disagreed that the job can or can't be multi just that there is an obvious position blue mage fills and that isn't multi-role until FFXIV (even FFXI, as it was only multi-role due to other systems, else it would be laughed out of the other roles filled by jobs that actually were designed around the concept). I said like WoW you could have a FFXIV Blue Mage that just has specs (Atherial Mimicry), this is true, there are some differences naturally like gear but whatever it wasn't something I cared about focusing on (due to how gear works here, and how blue already works here, I thought it not important to point to discuss). The point was that it worked in WoW (sometimes). I understand your point is you can have all the specs without changing the gear, that point wasn't important to me for FFXIV. Then we discussed FFXI and which case it's almost literally like WoW (where the trees are set sub jobs of the main job) then where with the spec and gear you get to pick your role but you're losing out on other things. In either situation comparing to WoW is suitable and functions to what I intended. (A real world example with some vague similarities, like Blue Mage has shifting abilities so does druid- druid just has way less options, but they do shift). Especially as it illustrates that the druid has diversity but a focus. In past FF Blue Mage has always been a specific type of Druid with a specific focus, and has not been able to switch roles just because. As soon as you add in FFXI where it wasn't due to the blue mage but due to the systems unrelated to blue mage, then you can start to say Blue Mage began being able to switch specs (and had to change their gear too). But this multi-role FFXI blue mage wasn't due to blue mage's own list of skills, without the sub jobs it would have failed to multi-role (unlike Druid I guess, which on it's own talents it could). Then FFXIV is unique in that blue mage on blue mage's own talents can now multi-role, which besides having to change your gear is exceptionally close to druid again. And druid does get new and different abilities based on their spec and form they're in which is akin to a kit for Blue Mage (just don't get to pick it really lol).
Ultimate point to me is that while people may find it nice for it to be multi-role, Blue Mage has never been a multi-role job in history (Blu != main healer, BLU / WHM = main healer), and that you can evaluate single player jobs for their role even if the devs didn't specifically say what it was (all the jobs had a unique purpose that made them proficient at a specific concept, like situationally blue mage could heal sure but they were awful if you wanted to depend on them for everything, something had to make up for their short comings, something you don't have to do for jobs made for their role), including FFXI, until FFXIV came around (blue mage in FFXIV, currently as limited, can do it all, although their raise is still awful lol). And if they added normal to blue mage and it was just one role, it would still be blue mage. They could add more than one role to it as normal, though due to my negative impressions of what they've done so far I would prefer they just make it good and high quality on one job than "eh tier" on everything. If they can make it high quality on all three, and it doesn't consume so much resources we start losing other jobs, .. well that's cool and preferential (but sounds hard/unlikely).
Point from the very beginning that started this all, blue mage while versatile has had a clear focus and it wasn't every role and to add a normal blue that is only one role is totally fine. -
10-30-2020, 07:38 AMLauront
I'd much rather they added a different spellcaster. BLU is what it is, and I'm not that fond of it as a concept, so I am hoping we get a shiny new caster in 6.0 I actually enjoy, alongside BLM and SMN.
-
10-30-2020, 02:25 PMMaraD_(I type too much lol)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
This is semi right, and semi wrong.
Its grey enough, that you can honestly say this, and mostly be correct.
SE didint see jobs as "Tank/Healer/DPS" back in the olschool FFs before FFXI. As was explained in FFXI why they tried to not have a dedicated tank. Any tanking options, like cover, or provoke, were not meant to be "Tank" options, but were viewed as "Supportive" options. This includes most older FFs. SE saw jobs as either "Front row" or "Back row".
Using FF4 for the best example of the system (which i hated as a kid, but was actually really ingenious) you had 5 slots, and it was 2 back + 3 front, or 3 back + 2 front.
This means at LEAST two people HAD to be in the front row, which means 2-3 people HAD to take double damage. THFs had evasion, MNKs had HP, PLDs had defense, etc.
BLM had no defenses, but was able to do maximum damage from the back row. Front row users "usually" had less effective options for the back row. And of course back row users were never hampered by the back row.
Healer vs Ranged(physical or Magical) wasnt quite established honestly, because of various factors, such as WHMs being rather strong with Hammers in early FFs, but Rosa was the 1st to not really melee. Her Holy was strong, but it took a long time to get her to use Holy. But FF4 was the 1st FF were u couldnt just stack WHMs, so she didnt need alternative options. Every job you would consider a "Healer" had good offensive options at some point. FFs were you could pick to add a "healer" (WHM usually) never actually needed a "Healer".
Of course a lot of this starts to change by FF10, as provoke was finally required for a single fight. Yunas WHM healing still was never required in any of the fights. (She was still better as a DPS to zerg bosses down)
So, looking at how SE saw it as "front row" vs "back row", its better to say the "Jack of all Trades" jobs were those who could be both a front row, and a back row job, and have little to no performance issues. BUT, so to be clear, I said that to give a generalized impression. Obviously having heals would be the secondary requirement to meet "jack of all trades".
Defensive roles pretty much just meant "front row". Not how well they managed to protect allies. Almost all healers were good at DPS, with a few exceptions in the series, such as FF4 Rosa, who could only be a DPS in certain scenarios. So its roughly safe to suggest there is a "healer" role, as a few FFs did have the role, but most didnt.
RDM and BLU were capable in both the front and back rows, and had heals. (along with defensive buffs for themselves or allies) So IMO, being a "DPS main" applies to all jobs. But being "multi-role" is definitely in their design. This is why I said earlier you were being rather misleading by saying BLU is a DPS main, with supportive abilities. That pretty much applies to every job in the series, based on game design. THFs "Steal" is literally a way for you to get powerful gear early, which makes up for THFs lower damage. Instead fo a skill that buffs a party members stats, its a skill that lets u get a perma "buff" (gear) MNKs bonus of not needing gear helps u save gil for the members who need the money more. (Depends on the game, but FF1 is the best example, where gear is costly, and magic is even more costly) Not all supportive options are skills you directly use. (Like with the MNK example) Every job has a design philosophy behind it.
Now to help support your argument, The devs have repeatedly seen BLU as different things through the series, but with examples of FF6, and FF11, the DEVs saw BLU as a Caster 1st and foremost (Back row only. Even FF14 gave RDM a melee combo, because they see it as multi-row still). Which I feel is how they saw it in 5, despite its ability to be "multi-row". The only reason it was "Multi-row" was because it started off with no spells, and they also didnt know which spells you would find, if any. In FF6, Strago not only starts with blu magic, he can also equip an Esper immediately, and have access to white and black magic + a summon. So there was no reason to give him front row potential.
So BLU is only "Multi-row" due to necessity, dependent on the game. RDM on the other hand, was clearly intended to be "multi-row" in FF5, as well as Versatile from FF1.
(This is why i actually saw RDM as the better "Multi-role" over BLU, despite BLU being a great candidate for it as well. I also felt BLU would been good as a "Choose your DPS playstyle" picking between Ranged vs Melee, and Support DPS vs Selfish DPS, back when that was a thing...This is of course just opinion, as theres more to deciding which job becomes a tank besides just being "multi-row" or even versatile.)
EDIT: Rosa technically had 11 "offensive" spells, 13 defensive spells, and for spells that could be used as either offensive or defensive she had 9 (example being how many undead littered the game, and cures can hurt undead, but melee attacks barely touched undead) I also listed cures1-4 as 4 different spells, despite being essentially the same spell, and raise/arise as different spells. If you dont consider them different spells, then she only has 10 defensive spells vs her 11 offensive spells, and by a statement you made about the number of offensive spells a person has, is how you determined if they were pure DPS, or DPS with support. This is another reason why I say this logic is misleading, even if it could be true.
EDIT#2: Interesting side notes, BLU magic in FF5 wasnt truly considered magic. (most likely due to having physical abilities and spells in the same spell list) So things like silence, and dual cast dont work with it. But this was probably due to engine limitations mostly. Maybe. For BLU spells that were magical, like Aero, all magical spells defaulted to the BLU mages magic stat, even if you were using BLU magic on a non magical job, such as a Knight with BLU magic equipped. This sort of acts like the polar opposite of RDM. Where physical jobs could use blue magic w/o penalty, but dual cast from RDM was pretty much only useful as a caster trait.
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10-30-2020, 02:49 PMTeraTyrantShadicAt this point I just wanna move from this conversation as it is going nowhere (Considering we are moving back and forth on each other) so I'll just put it in short and move on. Regardless of the history of Blue Mage I don't mind if it becomes a pure DPS role or a Multi-role Job. As long it comes into the game as a normal job I am ok with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
Hopefully that will be Blue Mage, but we won't know until 6.0. Also the Live Letter for 5.4 may contain vital information for Blue Mage to make it and break it to possibly make a way for it to be implemented as a normal job (Hopefully, just take it with a grain salt and don't put hopes up too high.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront
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10-30-2020, 08:18 PMVolsungrthe idea pushed so far is to actually have a caster that doesnt eat into extra budget and resources. and what's better than using the already present data and tweak it to be the next caster instead of having to make 2 different updates everytime. we already very tight on contents at least for raiders, ultimate get pushed back (and is rumored to be only 1 this expansion. and blue mage raid is quite dead if we do it late so yeah..Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront
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11-01-2020, 01:17 AMAlysellaI agree. They are wasting resources just to make contents for BLU as limited job since it can't sync with other classes. This is why limited job idea is so bad if they keep pushing out more limited job and each of them need their own contentsQuote:
Originally Posted by Volsungr
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11-01-2020, 03:24 AMReiMakoto
Hiya I've made a similar writeup to this here: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...92#post5455692
The focus for this is an "advanced job" setup, that doesnt rock the boat too much from the limited job with access to right now.