Conclusion: We really like FATES, but lie to ourselves.

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

I think the hate for fates steams from in early ARR fates was the best way to level up so you kinda HAD to do them over and over and over.

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Yep. And then they never stopped throwing them at us, starting with the brutal atma grind before they nerfed it. I just want them to stop.

We don't like FATEs, but it's the most common type of content they give to us, and most often the way for relics as well. It's not written consent, but a forced one if you would like to get rewards.

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

I think one of the problems with FATEs are part of what makes it a good design solution. They wanted to take many components you'd like in an open world game, like elusive enemies (that aren't hunts), spontaneous collection quests, defence missions, world events, etc., and package them all under one label. One flaw with this system is there is a huge, broad, massive range of disparate activities in how it works, the consequences to the world, the rewards available, etc.

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This is good game design. Dynamism is what makes a great open world, you need a lot of it, that changes OVER TIME, some rng to it, with a system that recycles itself. If you can finish all the open world activities in 2 weeks and get all the rewards you designed a bad open world system. If it takes you 6 months to a year, you designed a great system. If you designed it as a "decaying" system you reached "god mode."

Decaying system = adding glamours that take 100 FATES to get but which "break" after constant use and you need to get it again. Replace glamour with mount, weapon, minion. Even easier when you can make it an existing minion, weapon, mount, or glamour with with a glow to them or a different version. It recycles itself because it makes you come back to the open world to get it again.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Decaying system = adding glamours that take 100 FATES to get but which "break" after constant use and you need to get it again. Replace glamour with mount, weapon, minion. Even easier when you can make it an existing minion, weapon, mount, or glamour with with a glow to them or a different version. It recycles itself because it makes you come back to the open world to get it again.

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I just died a little inside. . Hyperbole aside ;), you're free to like that but I really really dislike that. To the point if it became a core part of the game, weapons, armors, mounts, glamours, breaking after certain amount of use- I'm pretty sure I'd sincerely think about leaving. One off mega primal you can summon or even mount on the open world that expires if you use or don't use after a certain amount of time, sure that might be neat- but definitely not the standard concept please god no (such a concept being used extremely rarely and for very specific and logical circumstances). I hate things breaking in general to be honest, especially if they also take a grind to get back (so like skyrim picklocks never really bothered me, easy to get). I wouldn't even put durability in that grouping since it's cheap, easy, and it wont vanish if it breaks.

Mine, mine, all of it, forever, it's mine. *cuddles all the useless items in my retainer(s) "I wont let the bad man Amnamaat touch you!"* XD.

It would also feel even worse in a game that has a cash shop. Either you don't make those items break because you pay for them, which makes them more valuable and pushes people to them more which feels like sketchy marketing, or they do break and they're clearly grubbing for your money with consumable glamour. Super cheap Korean MMO vibes. Just get some of that breaks your equipment on chance to upgrade (which they removed from 1.0 materia system, due to feedback- and I thank them for that). Bleerrrrgggggggggg. (I'm sure there are other mmos that have the rent gear / break gear systems but only MMOs I've seen them with consistently and so front and center are on korean ones, which immediately turned me off from looking into those sort of markets again).

More open world stuff is fine (could be really cool), but keep your decay away from my toys! lol. Again fine for you to have this bias- forum to voice feedback, but by god I've a strong bias the other direction on that concept. Like games with decaying skills or reputation, .. eww. :p

I did FATEs for atma.

I hate fates. I hate that gemstone vendors are locked behind them. I hate that Zodiac relics are locked behind them. I hate the fact that Eureka revolves around them. Fates are the reason why I will never have any Yokai mounts and I generally avoid them on the world map when I see them. They are boring, grindy busy work that could be better spent running other content. Meh.

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This is good game design. Dynamism is what makes a great open world, you need a lot of it, that changes OVER TIME, some rng to it, with a system that recycles itself. If you can finish all the open world activities in 2 weeks and get all the rewards you designed a bad open world system. If it takes you 6 months to a year, you designed a great system. If you designed it as a "decaying" system you reached "god mode."

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Calm down there, Skinner, youve been dead 30 years, game design ideas based on your nonsense are just taking a little longer to catch up.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Yep. And then they never stopped throwing them at us, starting with the brutal atma grind before they nerfed it. I just want them to stop.

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Personally I feel like camping fate spawn locations for hours (I waited 4 hours for one of them, forgot the name, but it was in east shroud) for the Animus books was actually worse.
Granted I didn't do Atmas day one, it was early 2.3 when I got to that step so a nerf might have been acitve then, but atlast I was free to move around the map without any worrys of missing a specific one.

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Originally Posted by Kamome-chan

Fates are nice when you have a train but when you're solo and the gauge barely fill it's annoying

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I agree.. they should scale based on the amount of players that hit the mobs.

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Originally Posted by Kamome-chan

Fates are nice when you have a train but when you're solo and the gauge barely fill it's annoying

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What you experienced is like more of an effect of FATEs scaling based on the number of participants the previous spawn had. At minimum scaling, most non-achievement FATEs can be completed solo in about 5 min by an at level character in proper gear.

If people didn't like fates they wouldn't participate on them. SE would have no incentive to iterate on the fate system in eureka, and make feedback-based improvements on the next evolution to eureka in bozja resistance front.

So yeah.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Decaying system = adding glamours that take 100 FATES to get but which "break" after constant use and you need to get it again. Replace glamour with mount, weapon, minion. Even easier when you can make it an existing minion, weapon, mount, or glamour with with a glow to them or a different version. It recycles itself because it makes you come back to the open world to get it again.

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Honestly... I hate that.
That's just adding upkeep to having fun.
Grindy upkeep.
If this were the case I'd never have time to maintain my glamours, and after I have them I'd never wanna use them.
I don't wanna not do things with the stuff that I worked hard to get. That's just stressful and not fun.

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Originally Posted by Infindox

Nah, I think the reward system actually made it better. Gives you a reason to go out and do some. Wish they'd put them in for.the older areas.

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Thanks for explaining my complaint back to me, but you got the conclusion wrong.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

If people didn't like fates they wouldn't participate on them. SE would have no incentive to iterate on the fate system in eureka, and make feedback-based improvements on the next evolution to eureka in bozja resistance front.

So yeah.

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If you locked enough rewards behind literally slamming one's head into their desk, people would do it.

That doesn't make slamming one's head into one's desk intrinsically enjoyable.

Nor does it make the means to those rewards not worth making more enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

If people didn't like fates they wouldn't participate on them. SE would have no incentive to iterate on the fate system in eureka, and make feedback-based improvements on the next evolution to eureka in bozja resistance front.

So yeah.

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I must be an outlier then. I hate FATEs, even when there is a reward. I still haven't finished every ShB zone, and I am missing one of the nicer little pets, because I won't do it. I'll get to it eventually, probably. I won't do them, unless there is some sort of substantial reward, or purpose. Like, when ShB first came out, I would use it as supplemental exp gain, doing FATEs inbetween queues. Eureka I only did, because of the rewards, but the eureka community (when I did it) wasn't too bad, cooperative, amd you would see the same faces quite often, it was a little fun. FATEs in the world don't really compare. I still have yet to do the Yokai event, and I was here during it's last iteration, I just kept putting it off, and am now putting it off. I need to get to it though, the rewards would be nice to collect.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If you locked enough rewards behind literally slamming one's head into their desk, people would do it.

That doesn't make slamming one's head into one's desk intrinsically enjoyable.

Nor does it make the means to those rewards not worth making more enjoyable.

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Making FATEs more enjoyable, would require a full overhaul of them. I don't really see that happening, ShB was just improved incentives, short term activity for FATEs. As is Yokai, short term. Making the world in general is something I think they struggle with, not that I am offering suggestions. The main thing I personally think (want rather) they should overhaul is PvP, but that is a different discussion.

You probably already made this point, and I'm just agreeing with you, I assume. I only read the top post on this page and the post above this one.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Making FATEs more enjoyable, would require a full overhaul of them.

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I'm not sure it does, unless you just count even revised scaling techniques (e.g. based on active players in the current FATE, rather than at the end of whichever FATE was killed just before) as a "full rehaul". In many cases, it just requires that there be room and need for player interactions. Granted, that is a taller order now when so many means of interactions have been effectively removed from the game as compared to in ARR or HW.

I'm about to head to bed, but I can explain in more detail tomorrow if you're interested.

I hate them. I've only completed Il Mheg, Lakeland, and Kholusia mainly because I managed to fall in with groups running them.
If I pass by one that's at 50% done or greater, I'll join in, but I won't start one at 0% unless there's some objective, like spawning Formidable.
I'm also maxed out on gems because I don't see anything I want on the vendors except for crafting materials, which I haven't needed for months.

One thing I'd like to see though is to sync automatically when you target a FATE mob.
Too many times, I've joined in, blown cooldowns, only to find that I wasn't actually hitting anything and then have to stop and click the damn button.

Before playing FFXIV I used to play to Rift (edited by Trion (RIP) back then, now by gamigo...). In Rift there a dynamic elements, the "rifts". Dimensional rift of a certain element appeared and could be cleared. You could also open the rift yourself with a lure you used on fissures to force an element or a specific aspect for the rift. There were normal rifts, major rift, raid rifts, pvp rifts... There were invasion, were a massive amount of rifts opened on the map and it became a huge mess with a world boss at the end, ...
Each rift had at the very least 3 stages (2 adds phases, 1 boss phase), sometimes 5 stages (more difficult add phase + boss phase) and rarely 7 (6th and 7th almost impossible to clear solo unless you were several raid tier above the content with a solo/self-heal spec). There were reward chests after each boss, it was thrilling and good :) . It fitted the lore of the game as well.
It was soooo good ! The design of this gameplay aspect was very successful, fun and I enjoyed it very much (regardless of what the whole game has become as of now...).

Each time I do a FATE, I can't help but comparing it to the rift system, I can't help but feeling sad because it's soooo lacking in every aspect... It could have been so much better. It could still be much better and room for improvement is really not difficult to be found...

Just a few bullet points :
- introduce elemental affinity for BLU.
- complexify the FATEs themselves, don't just make chained FATE. Have several stage in the same FATE and end it with a boss.
- introduce "invasion-like" aspect (whole map event + world boss) instead of having hidden FATE like Odin, Ixion etc. In rift you could "manually trigger" a fire invasion on a map by mass opening a fire rift on each and every fissure on the map for a reasonable amount of time (15-30min). Why wouldn't I be able to trigger event like Tamamo in Yanxia instead of waiting for hidden timer, praying for RNGesus etc.
- make real content out of FATE. We should be able to trigger 8-player content FATE which on a map with an item ? With rewards ? Stop making every different content in instantiated maps (eureka, diadem, incoming 5.35 lvl 80 relic map), please try to make use of your existing maps instead.
- make FATE for crafters/gatherer ?

Writing this message I notice that levequests are exactly what I call "manually trigger FATE". I don't know really, maybe merge/harmonize both contents ? Both systems are relatively similar... One is triggered and the other just randomly pop but otherwise they're the same.

In conclusion, I'd say that FATE is a disappointing content when comparing it with industry standard as of right now and SE should really look into picking ideas to improve this content. It can be so much better. Really. Just remembering the Volan invasion in Rift and the fun I had back then...

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Originally Posted by dutiona

Each time I do a FATE, I can't help but comparing it to the rift system, I can't help but feeling sad because it's soooo lacking in every aspect... It could have been so much better. It could still be much better and room for improvement is really not difficult to be found...

Just a few bullet points :
- introduce elemental affinity for BLU.
- complexify the FATEs themselves, don't just make chained FATE. Have several stage in the same FATE and end it with a boss.
- introduce "invasion-like" aspect (whole map event + world boss) instead of having hidden FATE like Odin, Ixion etc. In rift you could "manually trigger" a fire invasion on a map by mass opening a fire rift on each and every fissure on the map for a reasonable amount of time (15-30min). Why wouldn't I be able to trigger event like Tamamo in Yanxia instead of waiting for hidden timer, praying for RNGesus etc.
- make real content out of FATE. We should be able to trigger 8-player content FATE which on a map with an item ? With rewards ? Stop making every different content in instantiated maps (eureka, diadem, incoming 5.35 lvl 80 relic map), please try to make use of your existing maps instead.
- make FATE for crafters/gatherer ?

Writing this message I notice that levequests are exactly what I call "manually trigger FATE". I don't know really, maybe merge/harmonize both contents ? Both systems are relatively similar... One is triggered and the other just randomly pop but otherwise they're the same.

In conclusion, I'd say that FATE is a disappointing content when comparing it with industry standard as of right now and SE should really look into picking ideas to improve this content. It can be so much better. Really. Just remembering the Volan invasion in Rift and the fun I had back then...

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I agree with many of these points, specially the dynamic systems like Invasions where beast tribes, thieves, or just plain old monsters take over the world and you need to drive them back. This all sounds a lot like Bozja (the new Eureka we're getting in about a month). So it's like I've been saying, they need to import the dynamic systems of Eureka into the open world. The rewards need to be "long-expanding" rewards of existing mounts, gear, minions, glamours with with slightly different designs, colors, or glow. Want a brown goobbue? Do the world boss in this new 6.0 zone 500 times (500 is just a number I use, they can balance it themselves), it just needs to be long lasting so that it actually takes a long time to get. The last thing this game needs is something you get in 2 weeks to a month, we're too used to that.

I'd say they're probably a little too fast to complete in groups, too slow to complete solo. I love the idea of running FATEs, though, especially if it was a meaningful way of leveling new jobs really quickly!

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I must be an outlier then. I hate FATEs, even when there is a reward. I still haven't finished every ShB zone, and I am missing one of the nicer little pets, because I won't do it. I'll get to it eventually, probably. I won't do them, unless there is some sort of substantial reward, or purpose. Like, when ShB first came out, I would use it as supplemental exp gain, doing FATEs inbetween queues. Eureka I only did, because of the rewards, but the eureka community (when I did it) wasn't too bad, cooperative, amd you would see the same faces quite often, it was a little fun. FATEs in the world don't really compare. I still have yet to do the Yokai event, and I was here during it's last iteration, I just kept putting it off, and am now putting it off. I need to get to it though, the rewards would be nice to collect.

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Im not doing the yokai event, but that's also because I just dont care about it.
I didn't complete the ShB shared fates, because I just dont care.
I did every step of eureka on content.

The problem with FATES, and why I enjoyed Eureka more than I do fates, is because when you're doing fates you're doing them instead of literally anything else in the overworld. wanna craft? do a raid? put up a meme PF? run a roulette? You can do fates while you wait / in the meanwhile.

Whereas eureka that's /all/ you had to do once you were in there. No roulettes, no raiding, no meme PFs, no nothing but you, everyone else, and fates.
The social aspect of eureka was fostered by this shared understanding of "well, what the F else are we gonna do but meme and socialize?"

So maybe it'd be more appropriate for me to have said fates when done well and done in a way that foments social interaction are a good thing. When they can be done in lieu of or in tandem with other things they lose that sense of purpose besides just... being there.

They're tolerable. I wouldn't say I like them so much as I've accepted that they're one of the few forms of open world content that the development team are willing to invest in over time. The new currency they put in place is a major step in the right direction.

I really like FATEs. They're open world content, and honestly I like walking around and doing ones that make me feel like I'm helping the local community. I feel like I'm helping people.
But running the same dungeons is far more tiresome. FATEs are like a fun sprint. They're designed around the overworld. And it feels good to explore.

While dungeons are on a timer and feel more like a marathon. You don't get spend time enjoying them, because everyone acts like a speedrunner, and expects you to to the same. And while the "overworld" feels like it was designed first, and the enemies were designed to accommodate and work around it or to enhance it, dungeons feel like they were designed around enemies, not to be real locations in their own right. They're all very beautiful. But they look like dungeons. But I've gone in them with parties so many times, and forced to rush through them before I could do them unsynced, or with an Adventurer Squadron, they're kind of spoiled for me forever.

They work best in rare occasions, as a hallmark to a story. Where you're at the location they take place. But in a Duty Finder, removed of all context. They feel more like a chore than ever. It's the same thing over and over, and speedrunning in the Duty Finder is monotonous and the opposite of fun for me. Duty Finder has always been the quickest way I've found myself burning out on Final Fantasy XIV. I hardly enjoy ever doing dungeons any more. If I do something like play through the story again, The Vault is fun. Just for the emotional buildup. As well as the Aetheriochemical Research Facility.

But for all their flaws, I've always found FATEs far more enjoyable than dungeons. Running from one place to another. Fighting the same group of enemies. The same boss with the same mechanics. The expectation to go as fast as possible. If FATEs are flawed, and they could indeed improved in various ways. Dungeons are a thousand times worse. I've quit the game on multiple occasions because I burned myself out with instanced content like dungeons.

I've stayed away from the Dungeon roulette aside from occasionally using the Main Scenario one, and I'm a much happier Adventurer for it. I've stopped worrying about efficiency and what the quickest way to level is.

Honestly I wish FATEs gave more rewards, because they are so much fun. I would rather do FATEs any day over the dungeon roulette.

And honestly, I just want more and better open world content in general. I like doing things like flying around or riding around Thanalan, La Noscea, The Black Shroud, Yanxia, and actually feeling like a part of the world. Instanced content is so tiresome. I want to explore. And be rewarded for exploring. Dungeons are the opposite of exploring. There's a set path that everyone is rushing to complete.

It's a much nicer atmosphere in the Quicksand, where everyone is relaxing, roleplaying, and playing music.
More FATEs and more content like FATEs, please. Hopefully with some scaled rewards so that everyone is incentivized to do them.

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Yokai event has proven that to me, the community really loves FATES. The sense of community, of working together, of appreciating the world; and the FATES themselves are actually pretty endearing, specially the way they were designed in A Realm Reborn, as opposed to HW, SB, Shb.

What do you all say? What's your feed back to Square enix? Are you all willing to admit that you actually really like FATES but just need an incentive to do them beyond exp?

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It's proven to me that the playerbase will do anything regardless how boring it is, as long as the reward is good :P
(me included)

Some people like them and others don't. I think some FATEs are fine. I enjoy those which you have to fight a boss or a wave of mobs. If they added another layer of content to them, sure I would do them. I feel starved of open world group content. I am not really a dungeon or raid grinder, though. There are definitely many people that do enjoy open world content over small instance content. Please, SE, more of this, thanks!

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Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Yokai event has proven that to me, the community really loves FATES. The sense of community, of working together, of appreciating the world; and the FATES themselves are actually pretty endearing, specially the way they were designed in A Realm Reborn, as opposed to HW, SB, Shb.

What do you all say? What's your feed back to Square enix? Are you all willing to admit that you actually really like FATES but just need an incentive to do them beyond exp?

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Players who love to do FATEs do them just to do them. Not much incentive needed. Players who endure FATEs are doing so because the rewards are only around for a limited time.

BTW, boss FATEs are like striking dummies that hit back!

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

More FATEs and more content like FATEs, please. Hopefully with some scaled rewards so that everyone is incentivized to do them.

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To be honest, I feel like 99% of the issue I have with FATEs is that they've been presented as an exhaustive answer to all opportunities open world.

It feels kind of like "You got your circle with waves of braindead mobs or a HP-overladen striking dummy with the occasional AoE, so be happy about it and don't ask for anything further!"

If the devs had shown any intention to improve upon or add to open world systems, I'd still consider FATEs disappointing, but I wouldn't look on them outright negatively.

I love open world content when it's done well. FATEs, though, are not well done. They're barebone and lack even any sense of isolation or cohesion (you just do them while waiting on other things for the most part, or else screw over any solo levelers by consequence of your FATE train party whom they'll either never see because you're operating on a completely different side of the zone or will hardly be able to compete against unless on tank classes or pre-tagging everything). That FATEs are all we get, and all we're likely ever to get (and in the same form we've always had them), feels like a slap to the face.

GW2's Map and META events are a good example of Open World content done right I agree with the poster that they should take a leaf out of thier book to make changes to thier FATE system in future.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

To be honest, I feel like 99% of the issue I have with FATEs is that they've been presented as an exhaustive answer to all opportunities open world.

It feels kind of like "You got your circle with waves of braindead mobs or a HP-overladen striking dummy with the occasional AoE, so be happy about it and don't ask for anything further!"

If the devs had shown any intention to improve upon or add to open world systems, I'd still consider FATEs disappointing, but I wouldn't look on them outright negatively.

I love open world content when it's done well. FATEs, though, are not well done. They're barebone and lack even any sense of isolation or cohesion (you just do them while waiting on other things for the most part, or else screw over any solo levelers by consequence of your FATE train party whom they'll either never see because you're operating on a completely different side of the zone or will hardly be able to compete against unless on tank classes or pre-tagging everything). That FATEs are all we get, and all we're likely ever to get (and in the same form we've always had them), feels like a slap to the face.

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They could defnitely do more and better with them. And some FATEs are a lot more interesting than others. Defending the Golden Bazaar from Amal'jaa and the Forgotten Springs from Sandworms wowed me when I first experienced them. And others have unique ideas they play into. Such was when they chain multiple FATEs together. Dark Devices in Norther Thanalan was fun and interesting.

A lot of them though are just "fight this enemy that's been giving people trouble". Or "collect me a lot of items". Which basically makes them a fetch-quest.


So it is more than just the rewards that need work. The activities themselves also need work. There needs to be more variety in the type of things you do in FATEs. The fact when I made it to Shadowbringers, and one of the first FATEs I participated in was just fighting a bunch of Gremlins showed that they hadn't really evolved the system. And it was the same kind of content still.

While it may be a stretch, I think it would be nice for a future expansion to been something of an expedition. Like Eureka, but where players can build their own settlements and camps that are player run. Where players can build and defend areas, like a game of Tower Defense. And players move out to build resources. Where camps can recruit Free Companies, or have Free Company owned camps. Can add housing items to their camps and customize them with the same system as the housing system. And can recruit randomly generated NPCs that work similar to Adventurer Squadrons. Where, like Eureka, areas are full of dangerous monsters, and exploring out is dangerous, but necessary to provide for camps, and finish the expedition and see the whole continent or area.

Perhaps the New World could work like that, someday?

That's one of my sort of "dream open world content" that I would like to see added. Though I fear it may be a pipe dream to hope for.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

That's one of my sort of "dream open world content" that I would like to see added. Though I fear it may be a pipe dream to hope for.

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I worked up a "Living World" (before I even knew of GW2's patches by the same name) update idea for 1.x back in the day, among which that was a part (and, honestly, what I'd hoped would take the place of Housing with time, as I wanted people to be out in the world more, and more connected, rather than... less). Your idea especially reminds me of, say, Turning Leaf in 1.x, where you'd have sort of hiker groups that had just finished sneaking past the Lv. 99 Treants and now provided search and rescue, of sorts, for those less fortunate, but building so much further on all the means that made all that was great about that little piece of emergent gameplay.

The "Living World" thread was... pretty long, to say the least, but everything in it would still apply today. The only part of it the game's even scratched the surface of yet was the FATE chains introduced in ARR. I can't find it in the archives, so I may have to rewrite it, though.

Highlights:

• Map-wide mechanics and events (encompassing FATEs and FATE chains, but among far more and with more cohesion)
• More advanced mob and herd behaviors.
• More Journal involvement than just Quests, allowing for the collecting of lore and interaction with psuedoquests (easter egg or hidden quests, so to speak, that don't take on a discrete entry until you've notably progressed them, and no official quest-like entry until their completion)
• Hunt systems (more akin to MH:O, rather than what we later got, with more lore interaction and generally as longer, more involved unofficial pseudoquest chains)
• Greater interaction opportunities with existing developments (e.g. working with the Marauders, Yellow Jackets, Bronze Shields, Wailers, the Ul'duhn cavalry scouts, on a map-specific and cross-map basis)
• Greater economic interactions possible, especially in furnishing the above merged with what became special deliveries, rather than such being limited specifically to leves.
• The development of sparser fringe zones in areas that have less excuse for randomization (no moving trees, no sandstorms, etc.).
• Frontiers system, as briefly mentioned here.
• Outbasing (building and development of depots, posts, bases, training grounds, and the like, in the open world or across Frontiers), using the cross-seeding tech from the Frontiers system.
• Largescale scaling PvE content in the open world in the vein of actual warfare (whereupon previously semi-randomized or -instanced areas would collapse to a single seed, where all interact with each other to meet the threat head-on).
• Broader NPC reputations systems (without any gameified metrics) allowing for further interaction therewith, including in the manner of Squadrons, Special Deliveries, Wonderous Tails (minus the added content-rewards system) and Trusts -- able to fit alongside either, but probably with both placed under this broader mechanical manner.
• Ship-building and usage. Would later include submarines. Pirates, beastkin, trawling, deep sea fishing, and underwater salvage all included, of course.
• Interactable airship building and in-person usage, rather than via a mission board. Sky Pirates and potentially Garlean forces and air-based supply lines included, of course.

Comparisons to GW2 or Rift are pertinent. XIV's FATE system is simply grossly underdeveloped open world content. I wish it was better, because for everyone who felt compelled to swoop in here and call them boring or that they only do them for (limited) rewards, I can turn around and say that's the only reason why I do dungeons or the annoying raids. After the Nth time, they're boring and lack variety, with the base obsessed with wall-to-wall pulls and getting it all done as quickly as possible because... well, my guess is it's not actually fun for them, either.

I feel compelled to look back to XI's Campaign system, as well. It had its flaws between singular defense points and being tied to the weekly tally, but this really could've been used as a springboard for a more elaborate system in XIV where the nation states, resistance, etc. have their NPC forces to deploy against the Garleans or other inhuman forces in a cyclical form of battle that's never quite the same each time between players present other potential RNG variables. There's no reason why it can't be a primary source of leveling, means of acquiring gear, or place to get unique mounts/glams, but it presently is not because this narrative that MMOs are spamming dungeons/raids is continuously pushed despite their high resource drain and arguably minimal return on investment the more difficult the content gets. This eventual "solution" to make the open world not worth being in once you're done with MSQ to incentivize "the real endgame" has always baffled me. Don't think timed spawns for gathering hasn't slipped under my radar as a poor mechanic, too.

Oh well. Maybe in the next FF MMO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saidosha

Comparisons to GW2 or Rift are pertinent. XIV's FATE system is simply grossly underdeveloped open world content. I wish it was better, because for everyone who felt compelled to swoop in here and call them boring or that they only do them for (limited) rewards, I can turn around and say that's the only reason why I do dungeons or the annoying raids. After the Nth time, they're boring and lack variety, with the base obsessed with wall-to-wall pulls and getting it all done as quickly as possible because... well, my guess is it's not actually fun for them, either.

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To be fair, most of those people would agree with you. Dungeons aren't without their own broad range of critics.

The difference in the conversation between dungeons and FATEs comes mostly from (1) precedents, (2) time investment required, and (3) choice or lack thereof.

We've seen harder dungeons, in the form of undergeared AK and pre-nerf Pharos Sirius. But there are no particularly "difficult" FATEs -- only ones that will either unavoidably one-shot non-tanks for seemingly little reason or screw over melee entirely. Even the easiest dungeon, moreover, will take far, far longer than the easiest FATE (assuming equal player count at both the current FATE as the one that caused the current FATE's scaling). Thus we're free to make FATEs far more involved without locking out players without the necessary time bank; our only issue would be that FATEs are so often done only while in queue for other types of content (though, making FATEs more interesting and rewarding would already mitigate that) and FATE rewards on FATEs that finish after you leave the zone or go into an instance were removed in... mid ARR, I want to say?

Larger than that, though, there is little choice in dungeon selection, especially now. The vast majority of dungeoning is done through leveling via dungeon spam (with 1 choice at a time) or roulettes (no "choice", merely "randomization" -- now with at most two possible results in Expert Roulette, and with only one of those giving potential gear upgrades, down from the 3 equally useful possible results in ARR). A FATE, on the other hand, can be done or skipped at will. If some people want more involved FATEs, and others don't, then there's no real conflict. Said FATEs can be added and then skipped by those who'd rather just continue to chain the simpler ones, so long as their reward efficiency is nearly equal.

Simply put, unlike dungeons, there's no unavoidable compromise that would hold FATEs back from "improvement", as anyone might see it, so people will tend to be more vocal in their criticisms. After all, the most backlash one can get for suggesting potential improvements to FATEs is "I think they're fine already" rather than "What you want conflicts with what I want, and so I've prepared pitchforks, torches, cherry-pickers, and ad hominem arguments accordingly."

"No one would do dungeons if FATEs were too rewarding!" tends to be the old standby, which has no doubt played into their minimal EXP reward over time. Obviously, part of my own dungeon ennui is a distaste for queues. "Do something else until it pops!" may work for some people, but I'd rather just dive into something at will if I really want to do it. It's a luxury that becomes a harder sell the moment you demand 3/7/23 others on the same page and not turn into toxic buttgoblins if something goes wrong. Pragmatically, FATEs should at least be serving as an alternative to quests that no longer exist for follow-up jobs once cleared. And while some may argue that they technically do offer EXP, they're not really in the same league, nor are pitiable gil payouts going to be buying people hundreds of k in gear off the MB if they're no riding out augmented Ironworks/Shire/Scaevan until next tier.

In terms of variety, we ultimately need to consider how spontaneous quests can manifest:
- Kill X
- Fetch Y
- Go to Z
- Defend Q

For the most part, these are the skeletons we have to work with. You could have something like the coeurl queen FATE where it's "Kill X minions" until she finally shows up. Defense sorts can be stationary objects or escorts, where sometimes these do chain into later FATEs if they don't fail due to inactivity. The Fetch ones probably wind up being lame because they often double as Kill types, without really being exploratory or "puzzling" since you know whatever you need is in the marked circle.

Mechanically, the system otherwise has issues people noted where a train can make a subsequent respawn harder for smaller groups/soloists. This would definitely need to be on the "fix it" list if considering grander overhauls, to the point that difficulty should really be fluctuating based on people within range/synced in the moment. Bosses gaining new moves and/or spawning new/additional minions should probably be a given, but at the same time, also more thought provoking than just bundling together to AoE.

Personally, when I think back to my Rift days, I look fondly to those occasions where I'm single-handedly keeping a zone event alive because I was protecting a wardstone while others took out rifts or sub-bosses. People were working together, even if not literally within the same party, for a greater good in the moment. Of course, Rift also suffered from the "Raider's First!" mentality where you could put hundreds of hours into zone events and eventually get a set of gear that'd be comparable to expert dungeons, not even raid level. It always felt like a slap in the face to players like myself because those same people would try to say "you don't need it!" despite the reality devs could also make content where you did, further correlating an interchangibility between content where if you did maybe want to Savage raid for a night, you could without being a detriment to the group because you've still had a source of progression. Perhaps the irony here is that XIV is CLOSE to that with the tomestone system(s), but you have a mix of time gates/weekly caps and unique sources, like Nier raid coins, that ultimately prevent alternative growth. And by the time those aren't needed, it's another expansion/tier creep, anyway. From my perspective, all this runs counter to the whole "all jobs on one character" system since you're pretty much doomed to pick a main and have to settle for everything else being weaker in comparison.

But I'm also someone with an unreliable schedule and family life that can't ever commit to something like a static group, so this is pretty much the point where someone tries to tell me MMOs aren't for me, too. Something I'll eternally call BS on, but I suppose the genre can continue to decline if purists wanna do their thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saidosha

In terms of variety, we ultimately need to consider how spontaneous quests can manifest:
- Kill X
- Fetch Y
- Go to Z
- Defend Q

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Honestly, these seem sufficient to do a ton of interesting stuff.

The issue is ultimately the shape of the encounter and the available responses* to threats or timers. That's where your emergent gameplay forms, after all.
* (Available here refers to "competitive" or "(near enough to) optimal", rather than just technically possible.)

For instance, let's take a "Savage" version of the initial Worms fate in South Thanalan. The objective would be Defend X (the civilians). But consider all that could go along with that:

• You have a finite number of NPC guards to aid you.
• You have a finite number of defensive structures.
• You have a finite number of provided items (e.g. explosives), though perhaps you could have crafters make more through FATE-specific crafts (hit interact with the glowing desk and have at it).
• You can command the NPC guards to charge, pull-back, etc.
• You can have use crafted items (beams, stones, etc.) to shore up defenses.
• You can pull back K.O.'ed guards to where they can be resuscitated.
• There can be 'sapper' worms who borrow deeper into the town.
• There are a limited number of elite worms, with their own triggers, including worm death total, worm death rate, guard death total, guard death rate, civilian death total, civilian death rate, explosives use total, explosives consumed (and stockpile seen), a particular other elite worm attacked, a particular other elite worm killed, etc., etc.
• You can have NPC civilians feign death (e.g. hide in the basement of a building that is destroyed), including to trigger elite worm spawns (into traps), so long as you can get them out in time (before they suffocate or are noticed by sapper worms).
• There is technically a finite number of worms, but more importantly their is a scaling rate of their being brought against you based on the elite worms, though worm holes (not wormholes) in the area.
• Rate of kills can scare back worms, offering temporary reprieve.
• You can exit the immediate FATE area to any of the connected FATE areas, e.g. to attack an elite worm directly (offering distraction mid-assault or denying the worms an opportunity that would eventually overwhelm you) or to bomb worm holes (more effective in getting initial kills, as you're collapsing entire tunnels, and --if you can close a whole network-- reducing their incoming numbers, than simply defending against them).
• Etc., etc.

Voila. You've got the most complex and ingenuity-enticing fight in XIV. In a FATE.

It's all about the doodads, units, mechanics, etc., more so than any general objective type. The four basic objectives are wholly sufficient. The devs have just barely scratched the surface of what all can be done with them.

I've always like FATEs
It's RAIDs I can't stand

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saidosha

"No one would do dungeons if FATEs were too rewarding!"

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I think that says a lot about how most people feel about dungeons

As someone that has all the permanent gemstone rewards in ShB, I can say with confidence that people generally don't do FATEs because they enjoy them, but because they're seeking a certain reward, myself included. FATEs on their own simply aren't difficult or complex enough to go out of one's way; a time waster while stuck in a lengthy dungeon queue while leveling at best.

I know it's been said already, but even though Guild Wars 2 got a lot wrong, its expansive, dynamic world events were one of the few exceptions, and something I wish more online RPGs would adopt going forward; that and the fashion wardrobe for sure.

FATEs are incredibly lazy. I get that MMOs need filler, but they are so brain-dead. Just like everything else in the overworld. It's so much wasted potential, if you ask me.