Big pulls with Dark Knight.

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Well you should have made your point more clear then because this is what people were reading:

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My point is that they're bad relative to Paladins, which didn't require much reading to see.

I never said they can't mass pull; most of the content is scaled so low compared to the gear ilvl it allows everyone can mass pull. DRKs are just bad at it in relative terms.

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So in other words you are activating all your defensives at the same time and then you wonder why you are helpless afterwards? That's not how you play DRK (or any tank).

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I'm not helpless on the initial pull; I'm helpless if the fight drags on too long and I run out of CDs. As a Paladin I'm helpless never.

All I'm reading in this thread from the OP is "I'm a bad player, and when I get matched with a bad healer, PLD is better because I can spam clemency"

When confronted with overwhelming evidence to the contrary of their opinion, they just ignore it. Hence either bad player or troll.

lol, just terrible.

When matched with a bad healer, bad DPS, bad group, etc. Paladin is better because you can spam Clemency. That's just a fact. That only 1 tank class has the versatility to adapt to seriously bad groups to that degree is lame, but if that doesn't bother any of you it's completely fine with me. I'll just play Paladin and leave the other tanks alone.

Now what I'd like to see is more insecure people using this opportunity to flex and/or call me bad. It's been really useful so far. ;)

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Now what I'd like to see is more insecure people using this opportunity to flex and/or call me bad. It's been really useful so far. ;)

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So let me get this straight: When you're facing difficulties with DRK, it's because the job (and every other tank apparently) is flawed for lack of clemency. When others who face the same situation of the "bad healer, bad dps, bad group, etc.," and they're able to perform or even excel, it's not to point out flaws in your gameplay or arguments, it's because they wanna flex. Am I reading that correctly?

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

When matched with a bad healer, bad DPS, bad group, etc. Paladin is better because you can spam Clemency. That's just a fact. That only 1 tank class has the versatility to adapt to seriously bad groups to that degree is lame, but if that doesn't bother any of you it's completely fine with me. I'll just play Paladin and leave the other tanks alone.

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Each tank has something that keeps it unique, Paladin's is enhanced stability through support (which actually costs him, cover costing sheltron, clemency costing damage). Yet if you were grinding to the metal you might find Warrior's tank buster super helpful, or DRK and their magic resist both having pretty neat aoe healing that is also damage.

If all the tanks do all the tasks exactly the same it'll make them less interesting. Yes if you want to do casual content with bad groups Paladin is probably a good choice, but even that isn't exclusively Paladin as the other tanks can do some pretty nice solo moments too (it just happens Paladin does 'group support during a train wreck' the best). Casting clemency is almost always a flag that something really bad happened, and under normal circumstances is a bad choice unlike using your self heals that other tanks have (that Paladin don't get to use). You happen to like the spice Paladin has.. and that's okay but I don't think it would be that exciting to strip Paladin of it by taking it away or sharing it with all the other jobs.

In terms of big pulls the other tanks, not Paladin, actually have better optimal sustain as they can do it while also doing damage unlike Paladin. Something is quite wrong if you've got to cast clemency frequently, even as someone who loves Paladin I almost never get to use it (when I do it's because of some extreme issue, and that's the cost/benefit of the skill- personally would like to get to use it more without it being unoptimal but I think we'll need an expansion to balance out that change and keep all the tanks identities).

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Originally Posted by Hierro

So let me get this straight: When you're facing difficulties with DRK, it's because the job (and every other tank apparently) is flawed for lack of clemency. When others who face the same situation of the "bad healer, bad dps, bad group, etc.," and they're able to perform or even excel, it's not to point out flaws in your gameplay or arguments, it's because they wanna flex. Am I reading that correctly?

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I've said several times already that I'm aware it's possible to pull big with DRKs, or ANY tank in the hilariously scaled down dungeons you're all running. So yes, your pointless anecdotes are just you trying to flex.

Now the point I'm making is that DRK's sustainability is really bad compared to Paladin, and for no reason. Paladin having 10x the sustainability of DRK isn't "flavor," it's just flat out superiority. It's an option all tanks should have.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

In terms of big pulls the other tanks, not Paladin, actually have better optimal sustain as they can do it while also doing damage unlike Paladin. Something is quite wrong if you've got to cast clemency frequently, even as someone who loves Paladin I almost never get to use it (when I do it's because of some extreme issue, and that's the cost/benefit of the skill- personally would like to get to use it more without it being unoptimal but I think we'll need an expansion to balance out that change and keep all the tanks identities).

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In a good group Paladins will be able to sustain optimal DPS and ignore Clemency. They have superior passive mitigation, Sheltron they can spam using a completely separate resource, the best invulnerability of all the tanks, etc. In a good group things are balanced between the tanks. Paladins can just hold out exponentially longer in a bad group by sacrificing damage; it's a fantastic option all tanks should have and only Paladins have it. It's kind of dumb.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

In a good group Paladins will be able to sustain optimal DPS and ignore Clemency. They have superior passive mitigation, Sheltron they can spam using a completely separate resource, the best invulnerability of all the tanks, etc. In a good group things are balanced between the tanks. Paladins can just hold out exponentially longer in a bad group by sacrificing damage; it's a fantastic option all tanks should have and only Paladins have it. It's kind of dumb.

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Lower cooldown invulnerability is better if you're planning with other skilled players / planning around it, than the long cooldown (Warrior's is the shortest, Paladin's the longest). Paladin's is only seen as the best because casual players will go "oh wow, you lose no life using that!?!" but if you planned heals around using it for patricular moves then knowing your tank can't die to a tank buster and not bothering to heal until after it goes is quite a nice feature (casual not used as an insult, just referring to players playing different content / styles). This is where for example DRK can be seen as interesting as it technically lasts a long while and has a shorter cooldown, with the trigger period where it doesn't start until you died and then after you died you have a period where you still can't die (although I still feel like it could be made a little more friendly, yet it still has it's unique characteristic).

Paladin has passive mitigation but the other tanks have self healing that they can use in battle without killing their own damage which helps balance that (self heal in their combos, vampire heals, heals that are oGCD, shield, etc).

Other tanks can hold out for a long time depending on the boss and not sacrifice their damage (like I know warrior can solo a lot of casual bosses, so long as the boss has dodge-able AoEs mixed in to give a breather), just that Paladin can drop all their damage and help out their group for a long time. It is a fantastic option, I don't think it's a fantastic option all tanks should have to have especially as it's based around your group doing terribly lol.

Like Red Mage and SMN get raise doesn't mean BLM has to get it. That Red Mage has such an awesome cure makes them really solid choice for solo, but that doesn't mean the other jobs have to have solid cures- it really makes Red Mage feel special that it has that choice. Paladin might not be able to anti-buster every buster like Warrior but they can dig deep and temporarily become secondary healer, it makes Paladin special- like warrior is special that it can face buster most busters due to the lower cooldown.

Being useful in all situations is better than being useful in an extremely limited set of pre-planned situations. DRKs invulnerability is terrible, there's really no way to rationalize around that. DRKs passive mitigation is also bad; the combo self-heal doesn't sustain you unless you SEVERELY outgear the content. DRK basically lives and dies by TBN, which is only good sustain in a big pull if you have other CDs to pair with it. Otherwise it disappears too fast, where abilities like Sheltron keep their entire duration no matter how much damage you take.

Beyond that, things like SMN being the only DPS class to have a revive has always been a point of contention. Handing an awesome utility to only 1 DPS class and not giving the other DPS classes something to counterbalance it is TERRIBLE design.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Being useful in all situations is better than being useful in an extremely limited set of pre-planned situations. DRKs invulnerability is terrible, there's really no way to rationalize around that. DRKs passive mitigation is also bad; the combo self-heal doesn't sustain you unless you SEVERELY outgear the content. DRK basically lives and dies by TBN, which is only good sustain in a big pull if you have other CDs to pair with it. Otherwise it disappears too fast, where abilities like Sheltron keep their entire duration no matter how much damage you take.

Beyond that, things like SMN being the only DPS class to have a revive has always been a point of contention. Handing an awesome utility to only 1 DPS class and not giving the other DPS classes something to counterbalance it is TERRIBLE design.

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This is the whole yin yang of homogenization / being unique. Right now all the tanks can do their job and deal pretty similar damage and they still have a few one off differences. You call it terrible but I'd call it terrible to make them so similar there is no reason but colors to call them different.

Paladin is supposed to be the consistent rock, while the other tanks branch out a bit spreading their allocations of balance in slightly different ways so they do something better and something worse than the other tanks while Paladin is just consistent and straight forward. Don't trust your healer? Fine. But if you did trust your healer and especially if you had a white mage then DRK anti-buster is pretty good (though I still feel it's weird to say "if you have a white mage" lol.. it could be made a bit more friendly in some way). Want to cheese every buster, just go warrior, magic damage gotta have DRK, etc (but all of them can do all the content even though they've minor differences).

Obviously we're not going to agree, but I definitely hope SE doesn't make everything so similar that it's just different colors of the same thing. People already felt they did that too much for ShB, I personally thought they did pretty good but should be really really careful about that moving forward (tank damage balance right now is really good for example, when playing optimally they're all really close to each other- which means Paladin using even a single clemency is playing unoptimally and going to hit that damage hard and bring them out of the ranking showing the cost / benefit of that skill).

All I'm getting from this is that you don't know how to play the class. At all. DRK has been the best at big pulls since its inception. In HW, Dark arts + bloodprice + blood weapon + Abyssal drain spam was overpowered, literally no need for healers since MP return from enemies hitting you gets turned into massive returns from abyssal drain, even more so wtih tank stance off. In SB and ShB we have TBN which is hands down the best and strongest CD in the game, especially if used during big pulls off CD constantly.

AD is more powerful than Clemency during big pulls because it does damage, is ogcd and 200 potency x however amount of enemies there are.


You're wrong. You're playing the class wrong. You're using Clemency horribly wrong. Stop arguing with people who know better than you and learn how to play the damn class. DRK is more than fine.

This has been an hilarious read. OP makes a post, literally no one who replies agrees with him, everyone who replies is just 'flexing'. So funny.

I can't comment on the meat of this discussion since I only level my tanks via squadrons/Trusts. But I enjoyed levelling DRK, and I haven't noticed my WAR for example being any more able to survive the few bigger pulls in Holminster that the dungeon itself throws at you. I'm a terribad tank which is why I only do solo levelling but I enjoy the differences between them, I would hate them all to be identikit

Honestly, all you people do is not ready a word I've said and repeat the same completely irrelevant crap over and over. I mean, you've all missed the point so completely after several explanations I have no choice but to think you're doing it on purpose to be annoying.

The thing is that no one here has actually disagreed with me. They're honestly so far away from my actual argument with their responses I'm not even sure they're talking to me. I don't think I've ever seen a community struggle this much to wrap their heads around a pretty simple context. I'm going to keep an eye on this thread and even keep responding because honestly... I'm fascinated. I want to see how many times and in how many different ways I can explain my simple point, and have you all completely fail to grasp it. I want to see for how long you'll all continue giving the same exact response that has nothing to do with what I'm trying to say.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I've been playing Paladin a lot recently and decided to switch back to my Dark Knight for some 80 dungeons, and I feel like Dark Knights are TERRIBLE at handling big pulls.

My routine is to immediately pop arms length and TBN, and TBN is eaten through in like 1 second. Since TBN is basically our entire defensive tool kit I have to almost immediately also pop shadow wall, rampart, Abysal Drain, etc. just to keep myself alive for the next 14 seconds until TBN is back. Then once that TBN gets eaten I'm helpless, so everything better be pretty close to dead.

Now obviously a good healer can keep you up well enough, but with my Paladin the healer barely mattered. I could keep myself up for a good 30 seconds easily with only a couple of CDs, Sheltron and clemency while the healer figured out where his heal button was. With my Dark Knight I don't even want to pull big in randoms. Am I not playing the class right is it really just that squishy?

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This is your original post.

I and many other specifically have replied directly to the demonstrably wrong information you've put in here.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Honestly, all you people do is not ready a word I've said and repeat the same completely irrelevant crap over and over. I mean, you've all missed the point so completely after several explanations I have no choice but to think you're doing it on purpose to be annoying.

The thing is that no one here has actually disagreed with me. They're honestly so far away from my actual argument with their responses I'm not even sure they're talking to me. I don't think I've ever seen a community struggle this much to wrap their heads around a pretty simple context. I'm going to keep an eye on this thread and even keep responding because honestly... I'm fascinated. I want to see how many times and in how many different ways I can explain my simple point, and have you all completely fail to grasp it. I want to see for how long you'll all continue giving the same exact response that has nothing to do with what I'm trying to say.

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So no, I do disagree with you directly. especially with this;

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I've been playing Paladin a lot recently and decided to switch back to my Dark Knight for some 80 dungeons, and I feel like Dark Knights are TERRIBLE at handling big pulls...is it really just that squishy?

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It's wrong. Stop gaslighting us when your OP is on the front page lol We get it, you can't read tool tips and the responses people are giving you, but can you please at least read your own crap?

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Originally Posted by Venoshock-

This is your original post.

I and many other specifically have replied directly to the demonstrably wrong information you've put in here.




So no, I do disagree with you directly. especially with this;



It's wrong. Stop gaslighting us when your OP is on the front page lol We get it, you can't read tool tips and the responses people are giving you, but can you please at least read your own crap?

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They're terrible at handling big pulls compared to Paladin in regards to sustaining themselves over a long period of time. That's the context I've provided and explained SEVERAL times in this thread.

A few of you actually addressed it and agreed that's the case, but didn't care because bad groups/slow kills aren't a context they care about. That's fine. It's the majority of you that are intentionally missing the point just so you can take this opportunity to flex and call me bad that are grating. People being dense and missing the point gets on my nerves, and this community seems to excel at that.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

They're terrible at handling big pulls compared to Paladin in regards to sustaining themselves over time. That's the context I've provided and explained SEVERAL times in this thread.

A few of you actually addressed it and agreed that's the case, but didn't care because bad groups/slow kills aren't a context they care about. That's fine. It's the majority of you that are intentionally missing the point just so you can take this opportunity to flex and call me bad that are grating. People being dense and missing the point gets on my nerves.

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No, again, you're very very wrong. Nobody agreed with this. DRK is literally the best tank at handling big pulls from a defensive and offensive standpoint simply because of TBN. It's been proven time and time again.

The experiences you've shared with us is simply you not knowing how to play the class. You're a bad dark knight. That's literally it. You're a bad dark knight, having a hard time because you don't know how to play the class, but you have so very little self awareness about that, You feel you need to come here to the forums to get some confirmation that it MUST be DRK that's bad and totally not you and then when literally nobody agrees with you and gives in depth information as to why, you do on the defence rather than put your hands up and just admit you're bad.

You're comparing the class and its tool kit to PLD's clemency (another thing you're using incorrectly if we're talking optimisation). PLD has to sacrifice a big chunk of its DPS to use clemency. Sure it can save runs if the healer is dead and nobody can raise but that scenario isn't and shouldn't be the norm.

Learn how to play PLD and DRK pls.

Absolutely amazing. I explain the point word for word, you quote it and you still completely miss it.

I never said Clemency was optimal, but when it comes to surviving a large pull in a group that's not killing it fast enough or healing you adequately optimal doesn't matter. A Paladin can survive that indefinitely by sacrificing some damage. A DRK just dies. DRK is not even close to Paladin when it comes to sustaining itself long term, because of Clemency.

Now PLEASE completely miss the point again with your response. I'm enthralled; I can't get enough.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Honestly, all you people do is not ready a word I've said and repeat the same completely irrelevant crap over and over. I mean, you've all missed the point so completely after several explanations I have no choice but to think you're doing it on purpose to be annoying.

The thing is that no one here has actually disagreed with me. They're honestly so far away from my actual argument with their responses I'm not even sure they're talking to me. I don't think I've ever seen a community struggle this much to wrap their heads around a pretty simple context. I'm going to keep an eye on this thread and even keep responding because honestly... I'm fascinated. I want to see how many times and in how many different ways I can explain my simple point, and have you all completely fail to grasp it. I want to see for how long you'll all continue giving the same exact response that has nothing to do with what I'm trying to say.

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I don't think you could get better answers as Shougun has given you. We simply disagree that other Tanks need to have the same potential sustainability as PLD and believe that the fact DRK has better sustainability when disregarding Clemency (An ability that sacrifices DPS) makes up for it. You believe all tanks should have the potential to sustain in bad situations as PLD does and I (+others probably) disagree, that's it.

The reason we don't believe DRK is terrible at big pulls (as you state in your OP) is because we believe DRK has better DPS+sustainability ratio compared to PLD which would have to sacrifice DPS if they want to surpass DRK sustainability during big pulls. DPS+sustainability ratio is simply more important to us than the max potential sustainability. While in your opinion, max potential is more important. Correct me if wrong but I think this is the crux of the debate, meaning there's no misunderstanding left so we may agree to disagree now and part our ways.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

I don't think you could get better answers as Shougun has given you. We simply disagree that other Tanks need to have the same potential sustainability as PLD and believe that the fact DRK has better sustainability when disregarding Clemency (An ability that sacrifices DPS) makes up for it. You believe all tanks should have the potential to sustain in bad situations as PLD does and I (+others probably) disagree, that's it.

The reason we don't believe DRK is terrible at big pulls (as you state in your OP) is because we believe DRK has better DPS+sustainability ratio compared to PLD which would have to sacrifice DPS if they want to surpass DRK sustainability during big pulls. DPS+sustainability ratio is simply more important to us than the max potential sustainability. While in your opinion, max potential is more important. Correct me if wrong but I think this is the crux of the debate, meaning there's no misunderstanding left so we may agree to disagree now and part our ways.

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Shougun did give a perfectly fine response, and we don't even necessarily disagree with each other. Under normal conditions the tank classes are pretty well balanced; I've said as much multiple times in this thread. Paladins having the option to weather worst case scenarios by sacrificing damage is something I feel like all tanks should have though. It's kind of absurd to just give it to Paladins.

Healers can heal through pretty much anything by sacrificing damage. Skilled tanks should be able to tank through pretty much anything as well. Paladins can; DRK's can't.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Shougun did give a perfectly fine response, and we don't even necessarily disagree with each other. Under normal conditions the tank classes are pretty well balanced; I've said as much multiple times in this thread. Paladins having the option to weather worst case scenarios by sacrificing damage is something I feel like all tanks should have though. It's kind of absurd to just give it to Paladins.

Healers can heal through pretty much anything by sacrificing damage. Skilled tanks should be able to tank through pretty much anything as well. Paladins can; DRK's can't.

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Healers healing through anything is really the point of them being healers. That's pretty much what they're designed to do.

But it's important that each Job have their respective reason for playing them. PLD has Clemency, and DRK has TBN. It's very obvious from this thread that you clearly like PLD more than DRK because it has Clemency. A spammable self-sustain is what PLD is known for and if every tank had something similar then PLD wouldn't be that special anymore.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Paladins can; DRK's can't.

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By now, after all your explanations, this statement bugs me the most. You say "baww, I'm just sayin' how OP PLD is with their """""flexibility,"""""" to somehow point out there exists a discrepancy among all tanks-- yet every time it's a thinly veiled complaint about DRK. You don't say "Paladins can; all the others can't," it's specifically directed at DRK each and every time. Are you trying to insult the reader's intelligence?

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Originally Posted by Hierro

By now, after all your explanations, this statement bugs me the most. You say "baww, I'm just sayin' how OP PLD is with their """""flexibility,"""""" to somehow point out there exists a discrepancy among all tanks-- yet every time it's a thinly veiled complaint about DRK. You don't say "Paladins can; all the others can't," it's specifically directed at DRK each and every time. Are you trying to insult the reader's intelligence?

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Eh. Warrior gets pretty close. Ain't nobody shrugging off big groups like warrior.

Gunbreaker gets !@#%ing demo'd.

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Originally Posted by GucciSan

Healers healing through anything is really the point of them being healers. That's pretty much what they're designed to do.

But it's important that each Job have their respective reason for playing them. PLD has Clemency, and DRK has TBN. It's very obvious from this thread that you clearly like PLD more than DRK because it has Clemency. A spammable self-sustain is what PLD is known for and if every tank had something similar then PLD wouldn't be that special anymore.

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If being able to heal through anything is the point of healers, then being able to tank through anything would sensibly be the point of tanking.

TBN is part of DRK's general purpose kit; in fact it's the majority of DRK's kit. Paladin's general purpose kit has enough tools to be balanced against TBN. Clemency basically exists outside of that; it's an OPTION to sacrifice your damage to make yourself nigh unkillable. No other tank has an equivalent option.

As mentioned earlier; it's like taking a bunch of DPS classes, balancing their output and just randomly giving Summoner the ability to rez. Sure, Summoner burns GCD and a ton of Mana to do it so it's not "optimal," but it's still ridiculous to give a great utility to 1 DPS class and give the rest nothing to balance it out. Now of course if I made that point you'd all be saying "ZOMG!! RES IS TOTAL DPS LOSS!! NOT OPTIMAL!! UR BAD SUMMNER!! LRN2PLAYNOOB!!"

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Originally Posted by Hierro

By now, after all your explanations, this statement bugs me the most. You say "baww, I'm just sayin' how OP PLD is with their """""flexibility,"""""" to somehow point out there exists a discrepancy among all tanks-- yet every time it's a thinly veiled complaint about DRK. You don't say "Paladins can; all the others can't," it's specifically directed at DRK each and every time. Are you trying to insult the reader's intelligence?

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DRK is just the only other tank I've really played. I'm sure I'd have the same opinion of the rest if I had actual experience with them.

Dunno what to say. I get back huge amounts of HP from Abyssal Drain on large pulls. One of my favorite skills.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Paladins having the option to weather worst case scenarios by sacrificing damage is something I feel like all tanks should have though. It's kind of absurd to just give it to Paladins.

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What bugs me is that you keep talking like Paladin gets the emergency sustain of clemency for free with no downside whatsoever, which just isn't true. If you don't use Clemency (which is the ideal scenario, given the dps loss) Paladin has the worst defense out of all the tank jobs. Still enough to survive everything in this game but lower than the other tanks.

You want all the tanks to have emergency sustain like Paladin? Sure, but it would be balanced out by nerfing their general sustain to Paladin levels. Is that really a good change?

They shouln't never balance anything with players playing bad, clemency it's already bad at it is and no other tanks should waste skill slots like that, if PLD are ok with having such tool then good for them but the rest of the tanks should be stay away from this specialy since the only scenario where clemency can "shine" can be easily avoided and solved by getting better, there is no need to modify theyr kits to allow mediocrity and a wipe or a thousan of then are necesary to players learn they are doing it wrong.

Abyssal Drain in SB only "shined" against pack of mobs, now we use it for single target too, does it make it better?

Well im more fond of feeling like an inmortal in a dumb wall to wall pull of a casual dungeon in SB than been able to use it every 1 min against whatever ex/savage boss now in Shb.

I dont think Clemency is a waste of space, because those turn the tables moments ( at least for me) are more memorable than my 56th perfect run of Innocence for the doggy.

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Originally Posted by Apdemic

What bugs me is that you keep talking like Paladin gets the emergency sustain of clemency for free with no downside whatsoever, which just isn't true. If you don't use Clemency (which is the ideal scenario, given the dps loss) Paladin has the worst defense out of all the tank jobs. Still enough to survive everything in this game but lower than the other tanks.

You want all the tanks to have emergency sustain like Paladin? Sure, but it would be balanced out by nerfing their general sustain to Paladin levels. Is that really a good change?

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I don't see how Paladin has the worst defense outside of Clemency, but I'm glad to finally be getting responses that address the actual topic instead of just pointlessly flexing.

Take Clemency out of the equation and, at least compared to DRK; Paladin still has better passive mitigation, the best Invulnerability in the game (compared to DRK having the worst) and Sheltron you can basically spam with no downside that always lasts it's full duration (while TBN is a potential DPS loss where your shield might get popped in 2 seconds). DRK basically only has TBN, which is obviously great, some very negligible passive self healing and AD which is only really useful on big pulls. I'd say it balances out pretty well. Clemency is basically a bonus.

I'm not as familiar with the other 2 tanking classes, but from what I've gathered GNB is considered to have the worst defense of all the tanks.

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Originally Posted by shao32

They shouln't never balance anything with players playing bad, clemency it's already bad at it is and no other tanks should waste skill slots like that, if PLD are ok with having such tool then good for them but the rest of the tanks should be stay away from this specialy since the only scenario where clemency can "shine" can be easily avoided and solved by getting better, there is no need to modify theyr kits to allow mediocrity and a wipe or a thousan of then are necesary to players learn they are doing it wrong.

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I mean, by this logic you may as well take away all healers GCD heals and just let the group wipe if a healer can't keep it alive by weaving it's OCD heals into it's optimal DPS rotation. Why let healers constantly protect bad groups from their failures?

I think having the option to counterbalance healing/tanking and DPS output based on your groups capabilities makes both roles more engaging, and feels more dynamic.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I don't see how Paladin has the worst defense outside of Clemency, but I'm glad to finally be getting responses that address the actual topic instead of just pointlessly flexing.

Take Clemency out of the equation and, at least compared to DRK; Paladin still has better passive mitigation, the best Invulnerability in the game (compared to DRK having the worst) and Sheltron you can basically spam with no downside that always lasts it's full duration (while TBN is a potential DPS loss where your shield might get popped in 2 seconds). DRK basically only has TBN, which is obviously great, some very negligible passive self healing and AD which is only really useful on big pulls. I'd say it balances out pretty well. Clemency is basically a bonus.

I'm not as familiar with the other 2 tanking classes, but from what I've gathered GNB is considered to have the worst defense of all the tanks.

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Paladin has the worst defense without Clemency. Adressing the things you said:

passive mitigation: correct me if I'm wrong on the numbers but I'm pretty sure Paladins shield gives a 20% chance to block for 20% damage reduction. That's a passive mitigation of 4%. DRK has passive self heal to compensate, so does GNB, never played Warrior. The migigation is propably still better than that passive self heal but the difference is neglectable.

Sheltron vs TBN: TBN is so much more powerful, it's not even comparable. Sheltron gives you 16% damage reduction (20% from 100% block rate minus the 4% you already had from blocks) while TBN gives a 40k shield on roughly the same cooldown. Come on, it's not even close.

best Invul: fair enough, Paladin wins on that one but then again, it's on a 7 minute cooldown.

DRK only has TBN: doesn't DRK have access to the exact same defensive cooldowns as Paladin? Both have Rampart, Shadow Wall is the same as Sentinel, TBN is better than Sheltron and that's pretty much it already for Paladin (again, not counting Clemency). DRK also gets AD on top of that.

AD is only useful on big pulls: isn't that pretty much the entire point of your discussion though? You said DRK is crap on big pulls compared to Paladin because it doesn't have Clemency. DRK has AD instead and it's amazing on big pulls.

GNB is considered the worst in defense: nah Paladin is worse, although not by much (again, not counting Clemency). The passive self heal should be pretty close to Paladins 4% passive mitigation. GNB has pretty much the same defensive cooldowns (Sheltron being a bit stronger than HoS due to its lower Cooldown) and then gets two additional cooldowns on top of that for free, although they are both not that strong (Camouflage and Aurora, which practically functions the same as another mitigation tool). Paladin can throw in Divine Veil, GNB throws in Heart of Light. Hollowed Ground is the only upside here and even then, Superbolide isn't that far behind it, in my opinion the strongest invul after HG.

Well, DRKs self heal is only on it's single target combo, not sure if GNB is the same. Whereas passive mitigation is working at all times, and the more damage you receive the more powerful mitigation is. I'd say it's far superior to the self heal, but someone would have to actually math out a variety of scenarios to confirm that.

TBN is more powerful overall, but in big pulls I feel like it gets diminished considerably. It's good when paired with certain CDs, but otherwise it gets eaten in seconds. Sheltron is active the entire 6 seconds no matter what, and like I said before, the more damage coming in the more powerful mitigation is. TBNs shield, however, doesn't scale with the amount of damage you're taking.

Also, AD is better with big pulls. You implied Paladin has the worst defense overall, though, so I kind of shifted perspective to overall. AD is only really a good defensive ability on substantial pulls.

I feel like when being played optimally all of the tanks are pretty well balanced between defensive and offensive capability. Paladins just have an incredibly powerful utility that allows them to sacrifice damage in order to become by far the most resilient tank in the game.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Well, DRKs self heal is only on it's single target combo, not sure if GNB is the same. Whereas passive mitigation is working at all times, and the more damage you receive the more powerful mitigation is. I'd say it's far superior to the self heal, but someone would have to actually math out a variety of scenarios to confirm that.

TBN is more powerful overall, but in big pulls I feel like it gets diminished considerably. It's good when paired with certain CDs, but otherwise it gets eaten in seconds. Sheltron is active the entire 6 seconds no matter what, and like I said before, the more damage coming in the more powerful mitigation is. TBNs shield, however, doesn't scale with the amount of damage you're taking.

Also, AD is better with big pulls. You implied Paladin has the worst defense overall, though, so I kind of shifted perspective to overall. AD is only really a good defensive ability on substantial pulls.

I feel like when being played optimally all of the tanks are pretty well balanced between defensive and offensive capability. Paladins just have an incredibly powerful utility that allows them to sacrifice damage in order to become by far the most resilient tank in the game.

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PLD has no fluff cooldown (thrill, camo, to an extent dark mind but drks tbn strength sort of excuses a need for a fluff) and only has passive block+shelltron with no sustain outside of clem. Passive block and shelltron don't compare to to the self sustain and additional cooldown power of the other tanks. In order for shelltron to beat out blackest night you would literally need to take more than your entire healthbar in the 6 seconds that shelltron is active, and shelltron actively makes and cooldowns you did use worse as a result of diminishing buff returns, whereas blackest night and cds complement each other. Even compared to GNB pld has it rough, GNB gets access to an extra fluff cd in camoflage which is excellent on large pulls, and they get auroa, in dungeons their mitigation is roughly equal if anything, but in single target pld has it the worst.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

PLD has no fluff cooldown and only has passive block+shelltron. Passive block and shelltron don't compare to to the self sustain and additional cooldown power of the other tanks. In order for shelltron to beat out blackest night you would literally need to take more than your entire healthbar in the 6 seconds that shelltron is active, and shelltron actively makes and cooldowns you did use worse as a result of diminishing buff returns, whereas blackest night and cds complement each other. Even compared to GNB pld has it rough, GNB gets access to an extra fluff cd in camoflage which is excellent on large pulls, and they get auroa, in dungeons their mitigation is roughly equal if anything, but in single target pld has it the worst.

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This is the kind of information I'm interested in. At what point does diminishing returns kick in for damage mitigation? How exactly does Sheltron stack with your other CDs... is it additive or multiplicative? If mitigation really does taper off that significantly then maybe I have the wrong idea.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

This is the kind of information I'm interested in. At what point does diminishing returns kick in for damage mitigation? How exactly does Sheltron stack with your other CDs... is it additive or multiplicative? If mitigation really does taper off that significantly then maybe I have the wrong idea.

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There are no diminishing returns.

Multiplicative mitigation is as effective for every layer.

People are misconstruing what diminishing returns actually means. The amount you -need- to use at any give time does not reduce the effectiveness of further cooldowns. Using more than you need is ill advised, but you're still going to be a damn super tank if you pop it all at once.

You are always going to be 20% more durable when popping Rampart no matter what else is popped at the time. Multiplicative mitigation keeps everything equally effective unlike additive mitigation which makes every additional source exponentially more effective.

As a tank, your baseline (100%) is your HP x 1.25 (Tank Mastery) x 1.42-1.72 (Based on gear). This is your baseline, your 100%.

20% mitigation is 25% EHP. Several things have quirks to consider but this is the basics.
30% is 144%
40% is 172% etc.

You can get these numbers in the following manner: 100 / Mit, where 100 is your baseline and Mit is your current amount of damage you are taking. With 20% running, you are taking 80% damage. With 30%, you are taking 70% damage. With both 20% and 30% running, you are taking (.8 x .7 = .56) or 56% damage.

100 / .8 = 125
100 / .7 = 142%
100 / .56 = 178%

Now that our basic rundown is done, we'll get into more specifics.

Parries reduce incoming damage by 15%
Blocks reduce incoming damage by 20% This was nerfed as paladins used to scale upwards of 28-30%, which for obvious reasons couldn't happen with the lovely change to Shelltron in Shb.

Parries and Blocks cannot happen if the enemy critically strikes you.

Parries and Blocks cannot occur at the same time (in the case of Paladin).

Parries and Blocks cannot happen if you are casting a spell (paladin).

Aurora is garbage, and only excels at making giant pulls effortless through the global threat it generates.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I mean, by this logic you may as well take away all healers GCD heals and just let the group wipe if a healer can't keep it alive by weaving it's OCD heals into it's optimal DPS rotation. Why let healers constantly protect bad groups from their failures?

I think having the option to counterbalance healing/tanking and DPS output based on your groups capabilities makes both roles more engaging, and feels more dynamic.

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That's not even a fair comparison, GCD heals are still need it on the game and outside of the lvl 80 dungeons, normal raids and other casual stuff where a skillfull healer can stand by using his oGCD only, the GCD are necesary in extreme, savage and ultimates + leveling dungeon being harder due the ilvl limitations making it being imposible to keep your party with only oGCD if you are not properly geared and fully know your job.
Despite of the amount of complains that healing is braindead easy right now shields and regens are still necesary.

Clemency on the other hand is not taken in consideration for anything, no savage, no ultimate, just nothing, it's not need on optimal gameplay for anything and the amount of situations where you can use it to save someone can be counted with one hand and i consider it encourage bad habits on several PLD casuals, thats why is consider the last resort skill and we always recomend never use it outside of those extreme rare situations where you can really make a diference by using it bcs thats how limited and useless is the utility of the skill and how is mining proper progresion of new PLDs who depend of it to much when they shouln't.

so no, PLD can keep clemency like now or they can recive an update where they can use the skill in more situations and not costing they dps output but i don't consider give the other tanks a skill to carry bad players in those rare bad runs and being useless if you are average to good tank a good thing when you can archive the same with being better and having a fully usefull kit that works on every skill level, apart is part of PLD identity and we have to much homogenization already.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

There are no diminishing returns.

Multiplicative mitigation is as effective for every layer.

People are misconstruing what diminishing returns actually means. The amount you -need- to use at any give time does not reduce the effectiveness of further cooldowns. Using more than you need is ill advised, but you're still going to be a damn super tank if you pop it all at once.

You are always going to be 20% more durable when popping Rampart no matter what else is popped at the time. Multiplicative mitigation keeps everything equally effective unlike additive mitigation which makes every additional source exponentially more effective.

As a tank, your baseline (100%) is your HP x 1.25 (Tank Mastery) x 1.42-1.72 (Based on gear). This is your baseline, your 100%.

20% mitigation is 25% EHP. Several things have quirks to consider but this is the basics.
30% is 144%
40% is 172% etc.

You can get these numbers in the following manner: 100 / Mit, where 100 is your baseline and Mit is your current amount of damage you are taking. With 20% running, you are taking 80% damage. With 30%, you are taking 70% damage. With both 20% and 30% running, you are taking (.8 x .7 = .56) or 56% damage.

100 / .8 = 125
100 / .7 = 142%
100 / .56 = 178%

Now that our basic rundown is done, we'll get into more specifics.

Parries reduce incoming damage by 15%
Blocks reduce incoming damage by 20% This was nerfed as paladins used to scale upwards of 28-30%, which for obvious reasons couldn't happen with the lovely change to Shelltron in Shb.

Parries and Blocks cannot happen if the enemy critically strikes you.

Parries and Blocks cannot occur at the same time (in the case of Paladin).

Parries and Blocks cannot happen if you are casting a spell (paladin).

Aurora is garbage, and only excels at making giant pulls effortless through the global threat it generates.

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It literally is the definition of diminishing returns.

As a vastly simplified example

Scenario A): You pop rampart and sentinel at the same time you will get: ( 5000 × 15 × 0.8 × 0.7 ) + ( 5000 × 5 × 0.8 ) + ( 5000 × 20 ) =‬ 162000 damage recieved
Scenario B): You pop rampart and sentinel staggered you will get: ( 5000 × 20 × 0.8 ) + ( 5000 × 15 × 0.7 ) + ( 5000 × 5 ) =‬ 157500 damage recieved

in otherwords you have recieved diminishing returns by popping more mitigation, which does not apply to a drks blackest night because it is a barrier not % mitigation. The gap between the numbers only grows the more you add, hence diminishing returns, and why its better to spread you cds out as appropriate.

Also Aurora heals the same (if not a slight bit more due to being a regen but only slightly) as wars equilibrium, free healing is free healing and on a 1 min cd it isn't anything to shake a stick at, as its basically 30k+ free healing every 60s provided your healer isn't overzealous.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

It literally is the definition of diminishing returns.

As a vastly simplified example

Scenario A): You pop rampart and sentinel at the same time you will get: ( 5000 × 15 × 0.8 × 0.7 ) + ( 5000 × 5 × 0.8 ) + ( 5000 × 20 ) =‬ 162000 damage recieved
Scenario B): You pop rampart and sentinel staggered you will get: ( 5000 × 20 × 0.8 ) + ( 5000 × 15 × 0.7 ) + ( 5000 × 5 ) =‬ 157500 damage recieved

in otherwords you have recieved diminishing returns by popping more mitigation, which does not apply to a drks blackest night because it is a barrier not % mitigation. The gap between the numbers only grows the more you add, hence diminishing returns, and why its better to spread you cds out as appropriate.

Also Aurora heals the same (if not a slight bit more due to being a regen but only slightly) as wars equilibrium, free healing is free healing and on a 1 min cd it isn't anything to shake a stick at, as its basically 30k+ free healing every 60s provided your healer isn't overzealous.

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Lets say you're a tank with 170,000 HP. You're faced with an incoming hit of 280,000. You have no Invlun because they're terrible design and trivialize things. In order to survive this hit, you need an EHP of 280,0001. For sake of ease we'll say you will take no further damage afterwards so you won't die to an instant auto after.

You pop your 30%. 100 / .7 = 143% (rounded up). 243,100. Not enough.
You pop your 20%. 100 / .56 = 179% (rounded up). 304,000. Bingo.

How much of an increase from 243,100 is 304,000? 25%.

No decrease. It did not diminish. It was the same ratio of increase as if you used it alone.

You are confusing need with DR. In the tank buster scenario, not stacking them is the "DR" scenario going by your "how much damage did I take" metric. You cannot have diminishing returns both when stacking and when not stacking with this mindset, but it's fortunate because it doesn't deal with either.

It's about the cost against the gain. The cost is the use of a cooldown, the gain is EHP.

Except invulns. Invulns are dumb.

Edit: Aurora is still garbage.

I admit I don't understand EHP.

What I think to understand regarding the diminishing returns is the following:

If you get hit by 100k damage and you use your 30% cooldown the damage is reduced by 30k so you get hit by 70k.
If you use the 20% cooldown the damage is reduced by 20k so you get hit by 80k.

If you use both together the damage is reduced first by 30% down to 70k and when you now use the 20% cooldown it's further reduced to 56k. So the 20% cooldown reduces 20k damage if you use it alone, but only 14k damage if you use it together with the 30% cooldown.

Please ELI5 it for me xD

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Originally Posted by Tint

Please ELI5 it for me xD

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EHP stands for Effective Health/Hit Points.

It is how much "Raw" damage has to go out to kill you.

Keep in mind you almost never see "Raw" damage beyond very early in the game, as by the time you are level capped, based on your job, you have a certain level of defense, and in the case of tanks, a trait. Your "HP" at the bottom, the green bar, is not your "EHP". Tank "HP" goes far beyond what equal amounts of DPS "HP" does.

So lets say you're a black mage and you have 100,000 HP. Your defense score at level 80 end game armor will put you at approximately 18-20% mitigation. This means you take 80% damage, or .8. You find your effective hp by the following.

HP / Damage Taken. 100,000 / .8 = 125,000 EHP.

However, since we never don't have our defense, this is considered our "Baseline". Our 100%. The damage we see when we get hit, for example, 7500, is already taking our baseline mitigation into account, and is not "Raw damage". For all practical purposes however, it's 100,000 health vs 7,500 damage.

Your understanding of the end result of stacking mitigation is correct.

However this is not "Diminishing return". Diminishing return deals directly with Cost and Benefit. The End result is not the "Benefit", because the end result has more factors.

The benefit of more mitigation is higher EHP values.

In order for mitigation to suffer from diminishing returns, each additional layer needs to be penalized in its benefit, but it is not.

With 20% mitigation, 100,000 HP becomes 125,000 EHP. A 25% increase.
With 30% mitigation, 100,000 HP becomes ~143,000 EHP. An ~43% increase.
With both layered together, 100,000 HP becomes (100,000) / (.8 * .7 = .56) = 178,571, or about a 78.6% increase.

This effectively means that Every layer of mitigation in a Multplicative System is exactly as effective as it would be alone compared to if they are used together.

The above example provided by Rei is flawed because it paints a very specific scenario, despite being vaguely described.

"The tank is taking 5k DPS over 40 seconds, all damage intake is uniform".

My counter example is no less specific.

"The tank is taking 280k Damage over one attack"

This demonstrates that "Diminishing return" is not about how much damage is prevented. That is separate, and we can go back and forth on the validity of each example, but in the end it has nothing to do with the concept.

It's about Cost (The ability) and Benefit (The EHP increase), and in multiplicative systems, the Cost and the Benefit do not fall out of sync.

This does not mean you cannot use abilities unwisely. You still gain the benefit - But you just didn't need it.