Thornmarch Hard Mode critical bug, SE thinks there's insufficient information.

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Min Ilevel healers are 2800hp

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Not only is that number off by about 1k HP, but doing that fight where it currently sits in the story, you should be sitting between 5500 and 6k HP. You dont have min ilvl for that trial when it unlocks, the game has thrown i90 armor and i70 accessories at you.

Unless you're trying to make it harder on yourself, its not going to kill you.

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Originally Posted by MPK

How you get that number? With full left side at i45 without any accessories (i know min ilevel is i54), i still get 3.6k hp. Only explanation I have why his hp was so low in the first place was cuz they didnt wear a hat in the video or some armor piece broke

https://i.imgur.com/Ap2NR19.png
https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1D0FU

I mean I guess you can strip till you're technically i54 with 1 item but what do you expect at that point?

So yes @Zumi is right. Any mitigation would've sufficed.

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I have no idea how you got that number but it is very, very wrong. What were you doing, putting level 45 armour on a level 80 character? xD

So here is a fresh 50 scholar on an alt with an item level of 111. That is 50 item levels higher than the minimum. She is clothed in a combination of ironworks and daystar gear. Her HP - 5100. You do not gain 1500 health points between item level 45 and item level 111. Item level 45 is around 2000 on a freshj 50.

https://imgur.com/a/lI0Vzop

You are … not correct here.

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Originally Posted by Barraind

Not only is that number off by about 1k HP, but doing that fight where it currently sits in the story, you should be sitting between 5500 and 6k HP. You dont have min ilvl for that trial when it unlocks, the game has thrown i90 armor and i70 accessories at you.

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Only if you're a tank :P

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Its amazing people still aren't grasping this. . . It's like for some reason they don't want it to be true.

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The reason it's confused people (including myself) is because almost every single time I've gotten this trial in the DF, they wipe on the first round specifically in phase 2 because they attack the king too fast, and they're thinking this topic is about that.

It quickly got to the point where whenever the trial came up, I would always say before the fight even started to make sure to kill at least 4 of the lesser moogles in phase 2 before attacking the king. I've seen other people do the same thing too (that is, throwing out warnings before the fight even started), so I'm sure I'm not alone in my experiences.

I'm not sure why people are trying to justify the damage increase when it's typical of normal difficulty trials to make their phase transition AoEs survivable at minimum item level without shielding or other forms of mitigation (Outside of the ones that require a tank LB3 like Omega and Alexander).

3.9K damage is actually more damage then most of the Extreme difficulty ARR bosses deal with their transitions to put it into perspective as to how overtuned it is. That's how much I took doing the fight unsync'd in full 500 gear on NIN, meaning a normally geared player would likely be getting hit even harder.

At minimum item level only tanks have enough HP to avoid being one-shot without mitigation. Yes, people should have better gear by that point, but you'd be surprised by how often they try to scrape by with the bare minimum.

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I'm not sure why people are trying to justify the damage increase when it's typical of normal difficulty trials to make their phase transition AoEs survivable at minimum item level without shielding or other forms of mitigation (Outside of the ones that require a tank LB3 like Omega and Alexander).

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Yeah, it's weird. I think a lot of people are forgetting this is an early ARR story-mode trial (like, 2.1 I think?); there's definitely no reason it should be pushing out that level of damage, unless a mechanic was failed and it was meant to severely damage or wipe the group in response.

Is this an only sometimes thing? Because I did this a few days ago and iirc nobody died at all O.o

Hmm I see the vid now... I didn't realize the fight had changed at all O.o

Is everybody ignoring that fact that in this game, the trials are supposed to be possible to defeat at minimum ilvl?
There's even a "minimum ilvl" setting you can put on that automatically locks it to that point.

So if a simple phase transition attack, (one that has damage that you cannot lower by any other means besides using shields/buffs/debuffs, that you might not even have, due to party comp) one-shots you?
It's an oversight that needs to be fixed.

I think people are misinterpreting the issue.

Is it a bug? Oh yes, no way should a hard mode trial require more mitigation than an extreme trial when doing mechanics correctly especially one released in the X.1 patch. Also asks yourselves this when was the last time you saw a random tank use reprisal for transition Memento Moogle or better yet last time a sch/Noct Ast put up a shield, because been quite awhile since i've seen either of those.

Is it a major issue? No its not, no new player should be that low on gear/hp if they have done job quests and equipped their gear, if they haven't done either of those bigger issues at play and veteran players on alt jobs SHOULD know better.

It is something they should sort out but it is not game breaking in the slightest with how everything has been set up to give you more hp than needed to live.

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Also asks yourselves this when was the last time you saw a random tank use reprisal for transition Memento Moogle or better yet last time a sch/Noct Ast put up a shield, because been quite awhile since i've seen either of those.

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Why would they put up a barrier when they're expecting it to do peanuts for damage even without it?

How do people find out these things?
I can’t say if I got TM on duty roulette And died I’d be thinking “well that’s not right I shouldn’t be dead. I’ll need to look into this and file a report to square” I just accept I died there and wait on a res lol

To be fair, after a little check, at level 80, bare, with only level one weapon we are already at 3.9k HP (as BLM). It distorts perception.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Why would they put up a barrier when they're expecting it to do peanuts for damage even without it?

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Less healing later, mp ticks up. The boss hits pretty hard. I always shield before transitions because I'll get mp ticks to make up for it. Why would you put yourself in a worse situation?

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Originally Posted by Bsrking5

Why would you put yourself in a worse situation?

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Good question. I will never understand healers who don't get that a full team at the higher HP it is less heals later and a way to escape the need to rez people, rez that take more time and cost more MP...

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Hopefully it gets some traction here because whoever moderates the Bug forum isn't getting the picture.

Apparently since 5.1 (the point they "nerfed" the encounter) when King Mog transitions and arrives he's doing massive damage via Memento Moogle that a normal lvl 50 at the proper item level simply can't survive.

Multiple people have confirmed it.

Pic of the damage

Video of it happening

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I wouldn't mind helping with putting more weight on the issue, by going into the duty with the minimal iLvl set and gather some combat logs / footage. But, i will need more people willing to join me. I have a level 52 Samurai on my Cerberus (alt) Character, so that should be usable for this test run.

There is an issue. I've observed how many HP has a WHM with full left side ilvl90 and a medium ilvl that is probably close from ivl54. He had around 3600HP. Transition Memento is actually far too high.

Yeah...you shouldn't have to severely outgear a normal fight to avoid being one-shot without heavy mitigation as that's generally limited to extremes or savage.

I still got slapped for 3.1K with Reprisal + Sacred Soil + shields from Succor.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

I think people are misinterpreting the issue.

Is it a bug? Oh yes, no way should a hard mode trial require more mitigation than an extreme trial when doing mechanics correctly especially one released in the X.1 patch. Also asks yourselves this when was the last time you saw a random tank use reprisal for transition Memento Moogle or better yet last time a sch/Noct Ast put up a shield, because been quite awhile since i've seen either of those.

Is it a major issue? No its not, no new player should be that low on gear/hp if they have done job quests and equipped their gear, if they haven't done either of those bigger issues at play and veteran players on alt jobs SHOULD know better.

It is something they should sort out but it is not game breaking in the slightest with how everything has been set up to give you more hp than needed to live.

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Except I could not do my trial roulette cause I had 2 whm in my party with under 3000hp and they died all the time. Tanks already got creative with cover and stuff but the baby healers didn't know how to react so it was a lost cause.

Is it their responsibility to properly gear up in time?

Absolutely yes but there will always be people that don't do that sadly.

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Originally Posted by Rhus

How do people find out these things?
I can’t say if I got TM on duty roulette And died I’d be thinking “well that’s not right I shouldn’t be dead. I’ll need to look into this and file a report to square” I just accept I died there and wait on a res lol

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as I said above, went into Trial Roulette, I am someone who does roulettes almost daily and I alway mark the moogles and explain the fight to newbies so I was already pretty aware of the whole concept of that trial.
So when it suddenly hit more than usual and our healers just kissed the ground without doing anything wrong, I did some testing and comparison and reported it.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Yeah...you shouldn't have to severely outgear a normal fight to avoid being one-shot without heavy mitigation as that's generally limited to extremes or savage.

I still got slapped for 3.1K with Reprisal + Sacred Soil + shields from Succor.

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ilvl 54 is the minimum requirement. I.e it's possible to do it at that item level but you're going to have a bad time and will need mitigation and good skills. ilvl 90 gear was in the game from launch, and was readily available to players back then let alone now. Hell a Scholar in i70 Darklight gear has 5.1k health. Way more than is needed to survive this attack. Just doing your 50 job quests gives you a full set of ilvl 90 gear these days so no reason players shouldn't be wearing it.

Lets not dumb down the game any further than it already is. If nothing else this is a good training tool to teach players about mitigation.

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Originally Posted by BristolRuss

Way more than is needed to survive this attack. Just doing your 50 job quests gives you a full set of ilvl 90 gear these days so no reason players shouldn't be wearing it.

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I could write a novel about seeing people in gear they weren't supposed to be wearing or not wearing.

I've seen a DRK with BLM right side gear in lvl 60+ content

Yesterday in MSQ roulette I saw a DRG saying to disregard my advice to newbies and that I wasn't competent because I wasn't "in raid gear". Meanwhile they are completely missing 2 pieces of gear on their right side.

I can go on, and on.

Point is, this game literally throws gear at people and many either don't know it or don't care to know it. But the fact remains, this attack does way too much damage for the level of the content.

There is no debating that. It's a fact.

The video from 2014 showing it doing 131 damage really proves it. No amount of Protect or Stoneskin is going to knock off 3400 points of damage.

The other fact is that SE needs to learn to not be so rigid in their bug submission forums. When lots of evidence is presented, they need to take it seriously and not just disregard it because "it wasn't filled out 100% properly".

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Originally Posted by BristolRuss

ilvl 54 is the minimum requirement. I.e it's possible to do it at that item level but you're going to have a bad time and will need mitigation and good skills. ilvl 90 gear was in the game from launch, and was readily available to players back then let alone now. Hell a Scholar in i70 Darklight gear has 5.1k health. Way more than is needed to survive this attack. Just doing your 50 job quests gives you a full set of ilvl 90 gear these days so no reason players shouldn't be wearing it.

Lets not dumb down the game any further than it already is. If nothing else this is a good training tool to teach players about mitigation.

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A level 50 scholar in i70 gear does not have 5.1k health. Either you're using the site wrong, or the site is inaccurate. I know this because I have an alt with a scholar decked in i111 gear with 5.1k health.

https://imgur.com/a/lI0Vzop

I have also helped many new people through ARR, guiding them to do their class quest and equipping their i90 class gear after which healers are closer to 3.5k health than 5k health.

Posts like these just spread misinformation.

That being said it's not a huge issue because the echo sees people through after a couple of wipes.

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Originally Posted by Matchakuchen

Except I could not do my trial roulette cause I had 2 whm in my party with under 3000hp and they died all the time. Tanks already got creative with cover and stuff but the baby healers didn't know how to react so it was a lost cause.

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I think if they were that low on health they may have not realised their last class quest gear is given as a coffer in inventory : ( If I went through on an alt equipping only my class quest gear and the accessories provided to me, my WHM should be around 3.6k. So they probably didn't realise, poor guys : (

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Originally Posted by Rae88

A level 50 scholar in i70 gear does not have 5.1k health. Either you're using the site wrong, or the site is inaccurate. I know this because I have an alt with a scholar decked in i111 gear with 5.1k health.

https://imgur.com/a/lI0Vzop

I have also helped many new people through ARR, guiding them to do their class quest and equipping their i90 class gear after which healers are closer to 3.5k health than 5k health.

Posts like these just spread misinformation.

That being said it's not a huge issue because the echo sees people through after a couple of wipes.



I think if they were that low on health they may have not realised their last class quest gear is given as a coffer in inventory : ( If I went through on an alt equipping only my class quest gear and the accessories provided to me, my WHM should be around 3.6k. So they probably didn't realise, poor guys : (

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A lvl 50 SCH in ilvl 55 Wolf Gear (HQ) with a Darklight Book has 3349 HP according to

https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1D0MU

NQ gear would put them under that.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

A lvl 50 SCH in ilvl 55 Wolf Gear (HQ) with a Darklight Book has 3349 HP according to

https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1D0MU

NQ gear would put them under that.

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That site says you have a level 50 character at a total ilvl of 16 and still 3.3k health? ... There's something really wrong with that site imo. That sounds really, really inaccurate to me.

EDIT: I used your page to input the equipment my alt is wearing and yeah, it's saying I have about 3k more health than I do xD. I dunno what's going on but yeah... we all wish we had that much health leveling : P

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Originally Posted by Rae88

That site says you have a level 50 character at a total ilvl of 16 and still 3.3k health?

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Some of the gear options aren't actually selected, just marked. With one option in every category properly selected, the player should have 4,422 HP. But then the minimum item level for Thornmarch (Hard), which should lock the player to ilvl 54, drops your HP down to around 2,800. So that site is definitely inaccurate to the game itself.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

The video from 2014 showing it doing 131 damage really proves it. No amount of Protect or Stoneskin is going to knock off 3400 points of damage.

The other fact is that SE needs to learn to not be so rigid in their bug submission forums. When lots of evidence is presented, they need to take it seriously and not just disregard it because "it wasn't filled out 100% properly".

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You also have to remember the higher ilvl. The ones in the video didn't have the echo and the patches since then. Higher ilvl really drops the damage by a lot.

And then there is the problem of it actually. The boss does damage based off how many are up(alive). The boss used to cast it before the other moggles were targets and thus not counted. But now they are and thus counted for increased damage.

In case anyone wonder want it does to gear sycned character. I had a 830 ast shield and received 2822 damage on transition. That was the only mitigation. I'm on PS4 so I won't post the screenshots, I'll give a little less then 4 minute YouTube video of the fight.

https://youtu.be/fhc3L04wUnE

Not my best gameplay but just wanted to see a normal duty finder group.

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Originally Posted by Bsrking5

You also have to remember the higher ilvl. The ones in the video didn't have the echo and the patches since then. Higher ilvl really drops the damage by a lot.

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Item level does nothing to "Drop the damage by a lot" (possibly exceptions for tanks) it gives you higher vitality in order to survive hits that would otherwise kill you.

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Originally Posted by Bsrking5

And then there is the problem of it actually. The boss does damage based off how many are up(alive). The boss used to cast it before the other moggles were targets and thus not counted. But now they are and thus counted for increased damage.

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Your reasoning is incorrect. The minions aren't alive for the first cast of Memento Moogle. They arrive a second after the cast is finished.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Your reasoning is incorrect. The minions aren't alive for the first cast of Memento Moogle. They arrive a second after the cast is finished.

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They arrive before the cast, it's latency that puts them after. It's still calculated. Wasn't an issue with the higher base latency. I have solved the world's greatest mystery. Time for donut and pickles.

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You also have to remember the higher ilvl. The ones in the video didn't have the echo and the patches since then. Higher ilvl really drops the damage by a lot.

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Better gear actually doesn't really drop the damage dealt by any significant margin; what it does do is give you more HP. If your class can employ barriers (which generally function based off your max HP), these will tend to mitigate more damage as well, but that's it.

There's also some attacks that are designed to do a portion of your max HP in damage, meaning that as your HP rises these attacks will simply do more damage to compensate. I forget the name of it, but one of Odin's point blank aoes in the Urth's Fount duty works this way; it hits you for something like 60-70% of your max HP, so even if you go in as a decked out level 80 you will get knackered if you let yourself get hit by this twice in a row without any sort of heals/mitigation.

I learned the hard way that no, a player using everything they got from quests and just quests does not have enough HP to live that transition. As a WHM at least. Ran it myself a couple days ago on an alt I was proceeding on MSQ with, not knowing this was a thing. I had the best gear the MSQ and job quests had given me up to that point, as well as that ring you get for completing all 50 entries in your hunting log to boost my HP even further, and it was still not enough. From full HP to dead in an instant. Best I could do was cast Medica II right before the explosion to help get HP up in the aftermath, cause I'd be dead. It sucked.

On top of its bloated damage, Memento Moogle also seems to ignore almost all forms of mitigation as stacking Rampart + Dark Mind + Dark Missionary on DRK only resulted in it hitting for 3.6K vs. the 3.9K it did to me on NIN.

As far as I can tell, only your raw defense stat and shields actually reduce how much damage it deals.

Issue is still unresolved as of the latest hotfix patch as I took 3.4K damage from a transition Memento Moogle that was weakened by Reprisal and Addle.

It's still causing more damage then all of the EX primals do with their phase transitions (Shiva EX is the "toughest" primal in ARR, but her Diamond Dust only hits for around 2.8K comparatively) so not very reasonable.

Can't you tank lb it? admittedly that would sound like too much for a non ex encounter but still.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

HAVE to is a strong word :P Back in 2.1 Ive had groups kill them in just about every different order. We just mostly agreed the most annoying ones were BLM, WHM, and BRD. So we liked killing them, to make the fight less annoying.
(On a side note, we once had the boss wipe us, cuz the main tank of PLD, was in sword oath, and his damage in sword oath was enough to enrage the boss in the 2nd phase each time. It wasnt until the 4th wipe, someone checked the dps, and saw not a single person attacked the boss, other than the PLD lol)

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Any kill order is fine, as long as you don't kill the two tanks before the other moogles IIRC. I remember someone telling me that if the WAR or PLD is killed and other moogles are up, he will immediately do the "I KEEL YOU NOW" thing on his next Memento.

But I've gotten through Thornmarch several times, in fact I did one just a week ago and it was fine. Because, you know, we killed all the adds.

Go figure. Do the battle correctly, win.
Screw it up and die.

The way it should be.

EDIT: Was watching the video.... the guy recording who dies only has 3,800HP which is barely over half what everybody else has. Like, seriously, he put no effort into even getting any Ironworks gear, which is buyable the moment you ding 50 (and there's a good bit of MSQ between Praetorium and Thornmarch, easily enough time to get some Ironworks gear). Heck the Praetorium run you go through the first time should be enough to buy at least 1 piece, and then the roulette would give you enough to get 2-3 more, and that's just the first day you ding 50. Not to mention adding Trials roulette to that, too. Also, they could buy some Lv50 craftables, too.

Definitely a player problem. Maybe they should just simply raise the I-level required to 100 or something.

Also, shame on the OP for not casting Succor/Adloquium. He even talks about how he's about to do this big attack and......he doesn't bubble anybody. While playing the healer whose job is all about bubbles. An adlo would have saved his life. Heck, Succor would have even done the same. He took 3854 damage and he had 3814 health.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Issue is still unresolved as of the latest hotfix patch as I took 3.4K damage from a transition Memento Moogle that was weakened by Reprisal and Addle.

It's still causing more damage then all of the EX primals do with their phase transitions (Shiva EX is the "toughest" primal in ARR, but her Diamond Dust only hits for around 2.8K comparatively) so not very reasonable.

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Nobody should have 3.4k health, I mean c'mon. Getting I-level 100+ is easy-peasy even for your first time through. Maybe, before going into your first (Hard) fight, you might want to actually make sure you're dressed for the occasion? Heck, they hand you i90 gear just by finishing your Lv50 job quest. Are you trying to tell me you're going in there without any sort of proper gear?

Not sure why people are acting like you should be able to walk into Thornmarch wearing Lv45 junk that you had on you while you were in your 40s and expect not to die.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

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In my first post here I had the same opinion than you. But since...

I've checked two videos, one from 2015, one from 2020. The difference is... huge.

In both case, players have between 4k and 7k HP (and that's normal for an ilvl between 70-110 when you are around lvl 50)
In 2015, they lost around 1/5 of their HP.
In 2020, they lost around 4/5 of their HP.

In both case, they followed the strategy, without mistake. The difference? In 2015 the monarch hit around 0.4K, now it seems he deals almost 4K damages in every cases (I tried solo witht the same result, around 4K damages).

There actually is a problem.

Is that such a bad thing, though? I mean... it teaches a player that they really should get geared instead of coasting along with terrible gear that's barely high enough to get into the instance in the first place. Then, later on, during oh, I dunno, Ravana or something you don't see people showing up in bare minimums making everybody's life hell.

Yes, it's abnormal and it could even be a bug, but I would posit that a transition AoE doing 60% of your health in damage is... something that is commonplace later on in the game and it's something that should be gotten used to. You have all the tools you need to get through that, and it's not going to wipe a group unless the entire group is wearing bare minimum to get in, which shouldn't really be a thing in the first place.

In fact, I always thought Memento Moogle was just too weak anyhow.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

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Well, I get your point. 1.5K or 2K damages sound to me more reasonable and enough surprising to make players feel some kind of little shiver, enough for a warning.

I personally think the bug is hilarious, but yeah it should be fixed if this isn't intended.

In the video though, with the scholar, they could use Sacred Soil and Succor to further reduce the damage. Succor wouldve allowed them to survive definitely. In the mean time, folks will need to use their mitigation tools, if available, to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Go figure. Do the battle correctly, win.
Screw it up and die.

The way it should be.

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How many times does it have to be explained to ignorant people that this fight was done the right way (this is the VERY first AoE) and is doing way too much damage.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

EDIT: Was watching the video.... the guy recording who dies only has 3,800HP which is barely over half what everybody else has.

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That just shows they were a bonafide Newb. And they shouldn't be shamed for that. We were all there. Hell I've been in dungeon runs where as the healer I had more HP than the tank and everyone else and ended up tanking everything.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Nobody should have 3.4k health, I mean c'mon. Getting I-level 100+ is easy-peasy even for your first time through. Maybe, before going into your first (Hard) fight, you might want to actually make sure you're dressed for the occasion? Heck, they hand you i90 gear just by finishing your Lv50 job quest. Are you trying to tell me you're going in there without any sort of proper gear?

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While I agree, that still doesn't matter. The attack is doing WAY too much damage.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Not sure why people are acting like you should be able to walk into Thornmarch wearing Lv45 junk that you had on you while you were in your 40s and expect not to die.

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You can't walk into Thornmarch at lvl 45. The min ilvl is 54. But if you were wearing ilvl 55 (vendor gear) you would absolutely die. The minimum ilvl exists for a reason. You should be able to make it past the first AoE. You can't do that due to the bug.

I love the one shot mechanic.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Can't you tank lb it? admittedly that would sound like too much for a non ex encounter but still.

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Pretty sure that's a negative because Memento Moogle is classified as "darkness" damage which ignores mitigation buffs and can only be reduced by shields, damage debuffs like Reprisal/Addle, and raw defense.

Said flag is usually reserved for mechanics you're not supposed to be getting hit by, but there's been other instances of it being tied to unavoidable damage, such as the J-Waves from Brute Justice in A8S.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Is that such a bad thing, though? I mean... it teaches a player that they really should get geared instead of coasting along with terrible gear that's barely high enough to get into the instance in the first place. Then, later on, during oh, I dunno, Ravana or something you don't see people showing up in bare minimums making everybody's life hell.

Yes, it's abnormal and it could even be a bug, but I would posit that a transition AoE doing 60% of your health in damage is... something that is commonplace later on in the game and it's something that should be gotten used to. You have all the tools you need to get through that, and it's not going to wipe a group unless the entire group is wearing bare minimum to get in, which shouldn't really be a thing in the first place.

In fact, I always thought Memento Moogle was just too weak anyhow.

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This is the only fight in the game where you'll get deleted by the phase transition if you try to go in with minimum item level, and the lack of mitigation options only worsens things. As previously mentioned, it's also hitting harder then every single ARR EX primal's phase transition (Which would not kill even players who are a fair bit below the minimum item level for their fights).

It's more about consistency then anything else.