Is 'Hydaelyn' a misnomer based on a misconception?

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Originally Posted by purgatori

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Originally Posted by Eloah

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Just to quickly clarify, I did not mean to imply that Zodiark and Hydaelyn are anything more than immensely powerful aetherial constructs. They were created by more sophisticated and controlled methods than our new primals, thus its possible that there are some rules or flaws (that stem from the improper method of creation used today) that don't apply to them. I think Emet just found it tiresome to explain such differences on the spot, thus used the blanket term "primal".

As for the tempering part, I think its still a possibility that the WoL is tempered. We are just now starting to scratch the surface of what tempering is in the story. We know very little, and even less about what being tempered by one such as Zodiark would mean.

There is a theory floating around about Zodiark and Hydaelyn representing control vs freedom, and that somehow manifesting in their form of tempering. I find this to be probable, but I would prefer if they didn't take this road.

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Originally Posted by purgatori

Hmm, no, I think for the term 'god' to mean anything, it has to connote a being outside the created order, upon whom the created order is dependent. I don't think FF has ever posited the existence of such a being(s) in any of its iterations. The games generally take an anti-theistic stance, wherein supposed gods turn out to be in some manner fraudulent, or outright malevolent. I don't see XIV being an exception to this.

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FFXI, which at least early FFXIV was based on, had Altana. She was an unambiguously good true goddess and like Hydaelyn, is connected to the Mothercrystal. In FFXI, Altana split the Mothercrystal into shards which sundered paradise and created the world we know now as Vana'diel. Sounds very familiar to Hydaelyn shattering the world into shards.

I actually think the tempering element is the one thing that could make me lose interest in the Ascian plotline - their motives and story are good without it and provide enough grounds for understandable conflict. If Zodiark acts as a means of amplifying their power and achieving their goals, fine, that works, but there's enough to suggest they're tempered in the sense that they're subjugated to his will, which to me strips away a lot of the complexity in the story. Likewise, Hydaelyn, having done what she was intended to do, will be superfluous and in fact I'd say that the pair of them have left the world in a truly detrimental state, where the Source is thinned out and weaker than other worlds in the Rift, and she probably contributes to the on-going dilution of souls in the Lifestream, most likely to sustain her own being, because Primals don't run on thin air - this would be an issue even if the Ascians were not causing mischief, because extrinsic invaders to the world are not unprecedented; imagine if they'd happened on the Source when it was still at 1/14th of its original self. So if he goes, she can take a hike as well. "Mother" is not needed.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

Just to quickly clarify, I did not mean to imply that Zodiark and Hydaelyn are anything more than immensely powerful aetherial constructs. They were created by more sophisticated and controlled methods than our new primals, thus its possible that there are some rules or flaws (that stem from the improper method of creation used today) that don't apply to them. I think Emet just found it tiresome to explain such differences on the spot, thus used the blanket term "primal".

As for the tempering part, I think its still a possibility that the WoL is tempered. We are just now starting to scratch the surface of what tempering is in the story. We know very little, and even less about what being tempered by one such as Zodiark would mean.

There is a theory floating around about Zodiark and Hydaelyn representing control vs freedom, and that somehow manifesting in their form of tempering. I find this to be probable, but I would prefer if they didn't take this road.

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Going from Emet-Selch's dialogue in the French version, it really seems to be nothing but the Primal integrating its summoners into its "energy" array and having them spread their element/energy. This is consistent with the speculation by the Scions and Beq Luqq that tempering may resolve to how strongly aspected an individual becomes to a specific element - the Primal overloads it to their own element in the hopes of subjugating the summoner into doing their will. The fact that Ramuh tempers even when he intends not to do so, suggests that that part is inherent in them manifesting. Most probably do see themselves as gods and, like most gods, intend to spread their dominion and have a ready means to do so via tempering. The reason Sin Eaters and Voidsent appear uncoordinated by contrast is because they only represent the elemental/energy overload but it's not perpetrated by a Primal. For Hydaelyn not to have tempered her summoners, even a little, would require she is somehow an exception to the rule. Although much is made of Zodiark's might relative to her, I think it's relevant to point out that he was summoned from 75% of the remaining populace at the time and not necessarily 75% of the world's population as such; so even if she was summoned with a comparatively smaller group, that still may well have sufficed to temper the individual summoners in the process, as occurred with the Convocation. And I think the Echo represents the tempering which allows the soul to persist even through the Lifestream's "corrosive" effects and also provides a node for the shard souls to return to if a world is rejoined/they decide to merge.

The way I expect they will write it is that the Convocation did not expect Zodiark to temper at the time, because any summons they were used to up to that point either consumed the life energies of the summoner wholesale, or were extremely minor in comparison to a project of that scale - and that the plan to sunder him came about when he tempered the Convocation, inadvertently (?) shattering the entire world in the process when their fighting dragged out. Elidibus states that it was intended that the entire affair would wipe clean any memory of the ancient world, which it appears to have done, but what I wonder is whether it was always the plan or whether it was just deployed when matters escalated to the Sundering.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

I don't think it's wrong to say we are tempered. Some might think so, but only because we have been conditioned to view tempering as a bad thing, instead of something potentially helpful. Besides free will is subjective. Just like in the real world what is viewed as "free will" varies depending on the subject, and as we know most things defy logic on a daily basis.

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It really depends on whether the Primal actively uses it to spread its domain. If it does, it renders the tempered susceptible to its will. I was hoping they would write it in such a way that the unsundered (and a rejoined, sundered soul, like the WoL's) may simply have their motivations tilted in a particular direction but not overridden, such that they could refuse to obey in principle, but I'm not sure they're going for this direction. I'd like to be wrong on it, though - Emet leaves the word "subjugated" in quotation marks, but that can be read many ways.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

This is all speculation but, based on the information I have right now, I feel like it's an elegant solution. Both Zodiark and Hydaelyn are 'wrong things' with agendas that are not ultimately beneficial to the star, and we somehow have to merge them or send them back where they came from. Or both

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That's possible, and it may be that they write Zodiark in that vein, i.e. that he does not covet simply expanding his domain, and that his destruction was sought after because Hydaelyn's summoners disagreed with the Convocation's final plans. Meaning he would not pose an inherent threat - he was simply undertaking a request made upon him, and his supposed counter-balance turned on him, leading him to react in the violent way a Primal would to a threat to its power, thus they fought. Really, there is nothing thus far to suggest that he was covetous for power or some manner of blood god. The Convocation intended to return everything to how it was before the Sound and that's where the disagreement centered, since that would entail a final stage of sacrifice. We've yet to see it confirmed that he demanded ever more aether or souls, and nothing but Hydaelyn's word to go on. She is intended by design to obscure the truth of the ancient world, so "more evidence is needed" is my current position on Zodiark's nature.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

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These are all assumptions made from current day primals though, if I'm not mistaken? All of the current day primals (that we know of) were summoned via means provided by Ascians. As such, the rituals provided may have built in "faults" that would further the goals of the Ascian agenda. I.e. the constant consumption of vast amounts of aether, or the built in feature of "hard" tempering individuals independent of the primals intention. Naturally its also possible that these issues are due to the inherent incompetency of the new races.

This kind of loops back to my previous musings about the limitations of Creation magic. Mainly about the difference between a living being and primals, and the necessary supply of aether, both for creation and later maintaining.

Anyways, just trying to say that we are lacking way too much information about Zodiark and Hydaelyn, and that we should be careful to make assumptions about them, based on the other primals we know of.

They are, but if you read the French version of Emet-Selch's comments on tempering, it is hard to deny that there are not strong similarities in the process, to what is observed e.g. with Sophia and her worshipers, who like the Ascians don't come across as mindless drones but are certainly tempered. I'm quite careful in stating that I am working from assumptions, so I am open to them turning out to be wrong, but I can see this as a possible direction they might take with the story. They have left some wriggle room here in that he states "subjugated", but is that him saying 1) it's not what is really happening or is it 2) because he dislikes the term? This, specifically, does sound like "hard" tempering:

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Emet-Selch : C'est ainsi que les Asciens sont devenus les courroies de transmission de l'énergie de Zordiarche, mon jeune ami ! Notre existence n'a qu'un seul but : amplifier et étendre la part de Ténèbres dans l'univers tout entier.

= “That’s how the Ascians became the energy transmission belts of Zordiark, my young friend! Our existence has only one purpose: to amplify and extend the part of Darkness in the whole universe.” (This ain’t translating too well but I *think* the idea is pretty clear.)

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The English version has similar wording but I think it's even starker in the French version and adds in that part about the energy, which again ties into info we got in 5.1. I'm in agreement that we know too little about either of Zodiark or Hydaelyn right now to say too much about their true nature - and perhaps they're necessary to stave off the return of the Sound, depending on its cause - so, I'll leave that as a possibility too. You are definitely correct that the Ascians may have taught defective forms of summoning to the sundered, lesser races or that for whatever reasons, they can't execute the summoning as competently without Creation magicks, but we will see.

Of course, if there is the possibility of denying the impulse to obey the imperative of the tempering for a being of sufficient power, it may not qualify as "hard tempering", if the usual variant does not allow for this.

Oh the irony... yeah I remember that line. Found it sort of funny, seeing as he was spreading light all this expansion.

I agree it was kind of a strange line, given how... intricate his actions are? He was also heavily emphasizing the saving of his people over the zealous darkness stuff most of the time. I guess its possible that tempering in these cases is more of a compelling sort of effect, and it can be more subtle, without overwriting the whole of the subjects will?

But yeah. Overall I'd also prefer if they wouldn't strip any agency from the Ascians. It might be an interesting whammy on the WoLs part, but it could cheapen Emets story by a lot.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Hydaelyn isn't allowing humanity to operate independently, though. She actively allows those she has empowered to head off into the world and use their enhanced abilities to overthrow whoever they so please. In some cases it is justified in the name of putting down world ending threats. In other cases, however, it stifles the natural course of humanity's history - especially when the Warrior of Light starts to slay people over political differences.

To allow the equivalent of an empowered soldier to dictate who rises to the top of society is not a case of allowing humanity to dictate its own fate. Especially when we know that they are not immune to bias.

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Do you have an example that does not involve Ascians in some way, shape, or form? If not, your argument is very weak.

These discussions are always so fascinating, I love them. Or at least I do when people are civilised - as most are on the lore forums - and engage in a healthy and respectful exchange of ideas.

I get what you're saying, Cilia, about Hydaelyn as Mother. I hadn't thought of it in that way. But I still can't shake the sense I have of her being like a broken AI or something. She did what she supposed to do, stop more sacrifices, but I wonder if the cost paid was a shock to her summoners? I mean, basically she killed her creators by sundering them. I know there have been discussions about how much the Sundered remember, but my hunch is nothing since the Unsundered had to reinvoke memories in the broken Ascian members of the Convocation. I may have that wrong, of course, but that's the impression I have.

Hydaelyn just feels like an advanced version of an Allagan drone (very advanced) that's a bit confused about where its maker has gone and not quite sure what to do so just keeps going with its original program. She even sounds like a garbled AI in Heavensward. I remember doing the Praetorium for the first time and wondering why she was so obsessed with just one thing. She literally never talks about anything else ever. It is creepy and a bit insane-sounding, and so I have always been wary of her. All the revelations that have come since have only deepened this for me. Which is why I say I hope there's some convincing story telling on the way if she is going to turn out to be Mother. I know they can pull it off because I loathed Solus in SB. Absolutely loathed him. But I loved Emet-Selch

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

Oh the irony... yeah I remember that line. Found it sort of funny, seeing as he was spreading light all this expansion.

I agree it was kind of a strange line, given how... intricate his actions are? He was also heavily emphasizing the saving of his people over the zealous darkness stuff most of the time. I guess its possible that tempering in these cases is more of a compelling sort of effect, and it can be more subtle, without overwriting the whole of the subjects will?

But yeah. Overall I'd also prefer if they wouldn't strip any agency from the Ascians. It might be an interesting whammy on the WoLs part, but it could cheapen Emets story by a lot.

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There's still a possible out, in terms of it being a "nudge" effect that they choose to act on, maybe because it it is beneficial to them in some way to act as an extension of the Primal in this way. It's not an inherently negative thing unless the Primal uses it to subvert the being's will, and this in turn hinges on its nature. We'll see if they take advantage of that possible out. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw Elidibus as a testing ground for un-tempering a being, as opposed to being killed off.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

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Actually, yeah, I can kind of see that AI part. That is how a magically advanced civilization would view a primal, wouldn't it? Hydaelyn and Zodiark being the pinnacle of such technology, basically created as "god" AIs or world management systems.

While I didn't find her lines as confused as you seem to have (possibly due to japanese voices?), she did sort of fit the "rigid management system" part.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Do you have an example that does not involve Ascians in some way, shape, or form? If not, your argument is very weak.

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Any and all scenarios where a Warrior of Light has cut someone down based on political of ideological differences would count. Many side quests revolve around just that. For history to truly be in the hands of man it needs to work out as intended, both in terms of the 'good' and the 'bad' - though the game itself repeatedly shows both to be a matter of perspective, further complicating matters. Eorzea also receives a disproportionate amount of attention and investment compared to other nations - further disallowing its history to advance in a way that isn't influenced by the Warrior of Light.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

Actually, yeah, I can kind of see that AI part. That is how a magically advanced civilization would view a primal, wouldn't it? Hydaelyn and Zodiark being the pinnacle of such technology, basically created as "god" AIs or world management systems.

While I didn't find her lines as confused as you seem to have (possibly due to japanese voices?), she did sort of fit the "rigid management system" part.

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One potential permutation of that, dependent on more assumptions than I care to count, could be that she was intended to sunder the world because that was her summoners' only solution for dealing with the problem of Zodiark spreading his influence (much like he was his summoners' only solution for saving the planet) and enacting the final stage of the Convocation's plan.

Her summoners determined, somehow, an irreducible minimum of aether that would be necessary to leave in the Lifestream (for each shard?) for the cycle of rebirth, allowing her to draw the rest to function. She is still drawing aether above that amount, leading the great bulk of souls to become ever more diluted even with each subsequent Rejoining reinforcing the Source as a whole, moving Lahabrea to call her a parasite and Elidibus to comment on this in their big ARR meeting. Once Zodiark ceases to be a threat, in whatever capacity, let's posit that it is time to allow that aether to flow back into the Lifestream and reinforce the souls once more. How would her Primal directive, "programmed" into her by her summoners, respond to this, particularly if above a certain threshold she would deem it "too much" as reinforced the mass of the souls emerging from it?

Another area of interest for me is whether we have some Lavos/Jenova type being in the setting, responsible for the whole Sound phenomenon, and if so, whence it originated, what happened to it and the question of whether it could return. I'm hoping they go down this route for the Sound, because I like the potential such a being brings with it.

There's also the question of whether this whole story runs deeper than just them being summoned as Primals. Some people have placed significance on the presence of Zodiark's statue on the upper floor of Akademia Anyder, suggesting he may have been worshiped in some capacity before a Primal in his image was conceived. I had chalked it up at the time to a prototype they were considering, as it ran concurrently with them trying to devise a way to deal with the Sound through the summoning of "guardians", but perhaps there's a reason they chose the design... and maybe the same applies to Hydaelyn. In that case, you could have all manner of scenarios, which range from the simplest, i.e. they were mythological entities simply leaned upon for inspiration, to more exotic possibilities like them being Primals summoned in an earlier time (since Amaurot no doubt has a long history), or gods in their own right, given physical form via the Primal summoning. I'm still leaning towards them turning it into a story of Primal summoning gone wrong, writ large, but it's possible that something significant within Amaurotine culture inspired their design.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Any and all scenarios where a Warrior of Light has cut someone down based on political of ideological differences would count. Many side quests revolve around just that. For history to truly be in the hands of man it needs to work out as intended, both in terms of the 'good' and the 'bad' - though the game itself repeatedly shows both to be a matter of perspective, further complicating matters. Eorzea also receives a disproportionate amount of attention and investment compared to other nations - further disallowing its history to advance in a way that isn't influenced by the Warrior of Light.

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You're referring, as always, to Garlemald not having a Warrior of Light to "solve all its problems for it," I assume. The Garlean Empire is an Ascian proxy.

Unless you have something more specific, let's just agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

FFXI, which at least early FFXIV was based on, had Altana. She was an unambiguously good true goddess and like Hydaelyn, is connected to the Mothercrystal. In FFXI, Altana split the Mothercrystal into shards which sundered paradise and created the world we know now as Vana'diel. Sounds very familiar to Hydaelyn shattering the world into shards.

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This seems like a legit example of an unambiguously good deity, so I'll grant that. I couldn't find any info about her sundering paradise, though? From what I could tell, there were already multiple mother crystals when she created the original sentient race, and then she created 5 other races after this original race was confounded by Promathia.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

Hydaelyn just feels like an advanced version of an Allagan drone (very advanced) that's a bit confused about where its maker has gone and not quite sure what to do so just keeps going with its original program. She even sounds like a garbled AI in Heavensward. I remember doing the Praetorium for the first time and wondering why she was so obsessed with just one thing. She literally never talks about anything else ever. It is creepy and a bit insane-sounding, and so I have always been wary of her. All the revelations that have come since have only deepened this for me. Which is why I say I hope there's some convincing story telling on the way if she is going to turn out to be Mother. I know they can pull it off because I loathed Solus in SB. Absolutely loathed him. But I loved Emet-Selch

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I really like this way of framing things. I have long thought that characterising either Hydaelyn or Zodiark as good/evil is wrongheaded, because this would imply moral agency, and I don't think that they—or any other Primal—has any. So far as I can tell, Primals are born with essentially one-track minds reflective of whatever fixation(s) their summoners had associated with the imaginary object of their summoning. Primals are not good or bad: they simply follow their programming. The consequences which ensue from the execution of that programming, on the other hand...

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Originally Posted by Cilia

You're referring, as always, to Garlemald not having a Warrior of Light to "solve all its problems for it," I assume. The Garlean Empire is an Ascian proxy.

Unless you have something more specific, let's just agree to disagree.

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I guess the whole Steppe section in SB is an example of what Theo is talking about. We drag the Xaela into the war to serve our own ends (well Hien's ends) and we use our capabilities as the WoL to do so by winning the Nadaam and becoming Khagan. No Ascians involved in that as far as I remember

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I guess the whole Steppe section in SB is an example of what Theo is talking about. We drag the Xaela into the war to serve our own ends (well Hien's ends) and we use our capabilities as the WoL to do so by winning the Nadaam and becoming Khagan. No Ascians involved in that as far as I remember

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Correct! There's also the political plot surrounding the Kugane Castle dungeon, where the Warrior of Light is enlisted to resolve a hostage situation. Arguably justified, though it's a clear example of history not being allowed to evolve naturally. Had the plot succeeded, Kugane would once again have been closed off to the outside world.

There's a bunch of other situations along those lines where the Warrior of Light's power and influence is exploited in order to deliver victory to one faction over the other. Of course, I'm not suggesting that the Warrior of Light should not be helping people in need. Merely that it is impossible for the reins of history to truly be in the grip of mankind when they're beholden to the influence of Hydaelyn and her champions.

As for the Xaela, I was rather disappointed to see that the Scions held their proud traditions in such contempt. They were manipulated not only to get them to join the war effort but also in order to gain access to the Allagan device located within the Steppes. I consider the former situation to be much worse than the latter, though.

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Originally Posted by purgatori

This seems like a legit example of an unambiguously good deity, so I'll grant that. I couldn't find any info about her sundering paradise, though? From what I could tell, there were already multiple mother crystals when she created the original sentient race, and then she created 5 other races after this original race was confounded by Promathia.

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Correct, paradise was gone by the time she created the Zilart. But the living world was created by splitting the mothercrystal into 5 pieces. The Zilart wanted to go to paradise and attempted this by encasing the mothercrystals in cermet (the crags) and connecting them together and sending the energy to one place to join them together again and destroy Vana'diel and bring back paradise. But that would end the world and bring back the dark god Promathia so they were stopped by Bahamut, the Kuluu, the Dawn Maidens, and the summons. The only time Altana ever gets involved in the story is when you beat Promathia and then Altana beams him to death.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I guess the whole Steppe section in SB is an example of what Theo is talking about. We drag the Xaela into the war to serve our own ends (well Hien's ends) and we use our capabilities as the WoL to do so by winning the Nadaam and becoming Khagan. No Ascians involved in that as far as I remember

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In order to win a war against the Garlean Empire. Which is an Ascian proxy (even if we were unaware of it at the moment).

Next?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Correct! There's also the political plot surrounding the Kugane Castle dungeon, where the Warrior of Light is enlisted to resolve a hostage situation. Arguably justified, though it's a clear example of history not being allowed to evolve naturally. Had the plot succeeded, Kugane would once again have been closed off to the outside world.

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Ysayle's dialogue after defeating Ravana suggests that the Blessing of Light (complete or otherwise) only kicks in when up against particularly powerful foes such as Ascians and primals. Operating under this plausible scenario, to say the Warrior of Light is using her "divine" gift to influence the course of history (beyond attempting to shake off Ascian interference) is not accurate; and one must, at some point, differentiate between the Warrior of Light "as Hydaelyn's champion" and the Warrior of Light as their own person. Therefore, Hydaelyn is not using her power to "take the reins of history from the hands of man."

Next?

It strikes me as something to agree to disagree on as the goalposts are moving a bit too far and too frequently for my interest and liking. As they often seem to do when the subject of Hydaelyn emerges around these parts.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It strikes me as something to agree to disagree on as the goalposts are moving a bit too far and too frequently for my interest and liking. As they often seem to do when the subject of Hydaelyn emerges around these parts.

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The tendency of this discussion to inflame the passions of Hydaelyn's defenders makes me wonder if she has managed to extend the range of her tempering beyond the bounds of the game itself. ;)

j/k I think it's an interesting discussion, and one that I didn't anticipate would get heated. Strikes me as kinda strange, but oh well.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

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Thats something I've been pondering. What purpose was Hydaelyn summoned for anyways? If it was just to defeat Zodiark then she should've dissapeared afterwards, no? Did she also get directives to guard against his return? If so, she wasn't set up very well, considering her semi-hand-off methods and apparent weakness. I'm also starting to lean on the side that summoning such primals came with unexpected aspects, some of which we're still experiencing the consequences of.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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Something possibly worth pointing out is, that the alternative you are arguing for, may be worse in effect than the original theory.

You imply, that all political situations a WoL takes place in are Ascian made. That would imply that most of the major issues in the world are caused and solved by larger powers, manipulating the mortal races semi-directly (in the case of Ascians) or indirectly (blessing of light).

Not saying this is incorrect, just that it some ways worse, and possibly still reason enough to hate both sides. Fighting determinism is a common enough theme in jrpgs afterall.

Edit incoming

See I haven\\\\\\'t trusted Hydelyn since the whole taking Minifilia and essentially coercing her into giving up her body to become her voice. Say what you will but Minifilia would\\\\\\'ve followed whatever Hydelyn would say especially at the time when things were going very wrong and also haven\\\\\\'t heard her for quite a while.

But this has been the only time in the history of the game that Hydelyn was proactive.

Every other time she has always been reactive, any influence/power she gave to someone was after the Asians have gotten involved and usually close to a calamity at that.

Ramza\\\\\\'s lot well best beat up all those auracite addicts that came about after Ultima gained sentience through worship (while never stated to be ascians but summoning sentience into a being that could provide power akin to Simon\\\\\\'s is very very questionable that they wouldn\\\\\\'t have had a hand in it, auracite was used for 13th shard and how did the auracite get there either to the 13th or the other way round as the only other place it has been found is the 13th shard - I take the whole Ultima the High Seraph classed as an otherworldly being which is vague to be like middy or like voidsent as a failed ascian ploy as it fits their mo just didn\\\\\\'t cause a calamity due to being sealed before it could)

Tensen had Kirin pony to contend with.

Zodiac Braves after the war of the magi started.

Us after garlemald had started making its move onto Eorzea and primals started popping up.
She was content with Garlemald taking the whole of Islbard and Othard but only gave power after they started coming to Eorzea where she probably asked middy to stop them due to dalamud having done its thing to Bozja Citadel.

There are two things that those that do not believe history is in the hands of man need to answer.

1. Why hasn\\\\\\'t Hydelyn tempered every soul or everyone especially at the height of her power (her programming would still have self preservation and making sure everyone knows who you are to provide you with energy is pretty up there)
2. Show me a time when she gave the blessing of light to someone when nothing wrong was going on like legit she just gave her power just cus she could.


Even Vayne Solidor champion for "Bringing history back into the hands of man" was a manipulated puppet of Venar, Venar turned its back on the gods but still was a god itself with very godlike powers, Ashe and co were the ones who actually put history in the hands of man when they slew Vayne but they left the other gods in Giruvegan alive so what is to say they won\\\\\\'t just wait out an era or two before manipulating a new puppet using Giruvegan power source as a means of power. So is history really in the hands of man at the end, sort of not really.

Part 1 as phone >_<

Part 2

I dislike that Hydelyn and Zodiark are primals it cheapens them cheapens the ascians cheapens us as the already shallow character that we are in canonical story.

But to see if history is in the hands of man with Hydelyn still around would require 2 things.
1. No ascians
2. All current blessing of light/echo users and those that know of her to die without passing on knowledge(which requires Sharlayan to be completely destroyed right down to everyone who has ever set foot there).

The 2nd point can only ever be theorised so not able to concretely put this down as down to personal interpretation. It is a literal no side can be correct so both sides have to accept that it is someone\\\\'s take on it.

With regards to the High Seraph, although it'd be unwise to rule out some manner of Ascian involvement, we have already seen that the First has some very similar features to the Source, including apparently the major races, much of the architecture, potentially the languages, etc... and this is in spite of having much thinner aether and different passage of time between the shards. So, the development of auracite coinciding across worlds does not really strike me as hard to believe as naturally occurring since it is just a mineral that can contain aether in the end. Urianger is even able to manufacture white auracite on the First, so it is really just a question of technical knowledge.

The High Seraph's ability to wield Ultima, a spell which requires dense aetheric concentration, is why it does sound plausible to believe that it originated from some other world, be it a star or some "dimension" we've yet to fully understand, given that even the Source does not contain dense enough aether to allow for the spell's execution without some extrinsic aid like the Heart of Sabik, even for a potent being like Lahabrea... nevermind the aetherically thinner Reflections. Lastly, if Primal-like beings can be created on the Source, there is no reason why similar processes could not yield similar outcomes on other worlds, and in its case it was reverence and fear of its destructive ability which led to it gaining sentience. I think it would be a bit trite on SE's part to try reduce everything to Ascian inervention - in the end, when they're gone, they are going to need other things to pick up the slack as antagonists, and whatever the High Seraph was might provide the starting point for one future threat. And who knows, perhaps they learnt of Ultima through studying such a being?

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Originally Posted by Lauront

For Hydaelyn not to have tempered her summoners, even a little, would require she is somehow an exception to the rule.

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An important point to make, is that "the rule" could well have been written by the Ascians themselves. All the primals summoned by Beastmen, with the possible exception of Suzano (who, notably, is never shown to have tempered anyone) were done so under Ascian tutelage. Since it's in their best interests for Beastmen to be belligerent, they could well have baked-in the Tempering aspect ON PURPOSE, not because it was an unavoidable side-effect of Tempering. I've speculated in the past, as well, that even Zodiark, the original Primal, could have been deliberately given this ability, in order to help curb the uncontrolled Creation magic.

Hydaelyn, created to oppose Zodiark, may well have been created with this aspect ABSENT, because it did not suit the needs of her summoners.

Regardless of whether Hydaelyn can temper (and, if she can, whether she ever chooses to do so), I think it's pretty safe to assume that the writers are NEVER going to step up and say that the player character was tempered all along. They are, for the most part, very dedicated to allowing the player to choose their own narrative for their characters, and out-and-out saying "Oh, everything you've done has been because your soul has been enslaved by Hydaelyn" would stand pretty starkly against that!

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Any and all scenarios where a Warrior of Light has cut someone down based on political of ideological differences would count. Many side quests revolve around just that. For history to truly be in the hands of man it needs to work out as intended, both in terms of the 'good' and the 'bad' - though the game itself repeatedly shows both to be a matter of perspective, further complicating matters. Eorzea also receives a disproportionate amount of attention and investment compared to other nations - further disallowing its history to advance in a way that isn't influenced by the Warrior of Light.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I guess the whole Steppe section in SB is an example of what Theo is talking about. We drag the Xaela into the war to serve our own ends (well Hien's ends) and we use our capabilities as the WoL to do so by winning the Nadaam and becoming Khagan. No Ascians involved in that as far as I remember

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None of the instances in which the WoL has acted on a political basis have invoked the power of Hydaelyn. Those were all personal choices made by the WoL, using only the WoL's natural strength. The whole point of Midgardsormr's test was to show that the WoL's strength does NOT flow from Hydaelyn; it is their own. All Hydaelyn does is provide a shield against explicitly supernatural threats, such as the Eye of Sabik, Primal Tempering, or Ascian tricks.

Any political action the WoL takes is not the will of Hydaelyn, and use none of her blessings. The most she could be blamed for is giving the WoL tools that allowed them to survive NON-political threats, when their death could have stopped them from interfering with political matters later on.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Her summoners determined, somehow, an irreducible minimum of aether that would be necessary to leave in the Lifestream (for each shard?) for the cycle of rebirth, allowing her to draw the rest to function. She is still drawing aether above that amount, leading the great bulk of souls to become ever more diluted even with each subsequent Rejoining reinforcing the Source as a whole, moving Lahabrea to call her a parasite and Elidibus to comment on this in their big ARR meeting. Once Zodiark ceases to be a threat, in whatever capacity, let's posit that it is time to allow that aether to flow back into the Lifestream and reinforce the souls once more. How would her Primal directive, "programmed" into her by her summoners, respond to this, particularly if above a certain threshold she would deem it "too much" as reinforced the mass of the souls emerging from it?

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Well, we do know that Primals are capable of choosing to remove themselves, if they determine that they themselves are harmful to the directives they are trying to follow. Alexander proved that. I'd imagine that Hydaelyn, if she so determined the state of things, would either leave, or arrange for herself to be removed.

If not for Hydaelyn's intervention, the Warrior of Light would have perished on a number of occasions - and although an argument can be made for that being a necessity for the sake of the world's survival, it still means that the Warrior of Light's strength is not natural. To say nothing of the fact that he's now an entire soul's worth stronger than everybody else on the Source due to merging with Ardbert. Furthermore, the Echo provides insight and information that would not otherwise be easily discovered/known - which, again, has affected the course of history on a number of occasions.

As such, the course of history is not in the hands of man. It's dictated indirectly - and sometimes directly - by outside forces. Perhaps it will change in the future - though that remains to be seen. As for Hydaelyn, since she isn't actually a deity then the people deserve to know the truth of her nature instead of being led astray. Then they can have the choice to decide if they wish to hold her in high regard or not. Though I suspect that like many other inconvenient truths the masses will be spared from such knowledge 'for their own good'.

I suppose we'll see. There's much we don't know about tempering - it does make sense that it could be used to ensure misuse of Creation magicks did not take place, but at the same time it also makes sense as an unforeseen, unintended side-effect which the Primal may or may not exploit, depending on its nature.

The one thing that would strike me as odd if it were built into Zodiark to temper by design, in order to prevent Creation magick misuse, is why the Convocation would temper itself in the process, too, when such concerns would be unlikely to apply to them and they were the summoners. Maybe it's the only way they could build in such a feature and make use of it e.g. through the final stage of sacrifice, so they accepted the risk, but at the same time it does seem consistent with the whole thing taking them by surprise or being an acceptable price for saving the world if they did suspect it could happen.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

They are, for the most part, very dedicated to allowing the player to choose their own narrative for their characters, and out-and-out saying "Oh, everything you've done has been because your soul has been enslaved by Hydaelyn" would stand pretty starkly against that!

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Since when? There are no meaningful choices available to the WoL in the MSQ.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

Something possibly worth pointing out is, that the alternative you are arguing for, may be worse in effect than the original theory.

You imply, that all political situations a WoL takes place in are Ascian made. That would imply that most of the major issues in the world are caused and solved by larger powers, manipulating the mortal races semi-directly (in the case of Ascians) or indirectly (blessing of light).

Not saying this is incorrect, just that it some ways worse, and possibly still reason enough to hate both sides. Fighting determinism is a common enough theme in jrpgs afterall.

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As it pertains to the Garlean Empire, an Ascian proxy? Yes.

As it pertains to Ishgard under Thordan VII's rule? Yes. However, for a brief time afterwards (between the defeat of King Thordan and Nidhogg) we are dealing with a purely man-made crisis, and presumably solve it without Hydaelyn's assistance (hence the need to use Hraesvelgr's Eye to go toe to toe with Nidhogg).

Not all political situations the Warrior of Light deals with are engineered by the Ascians (the Monetarist coup in Ul'dah comes to mind), either.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

If not for Hydaelyn's intervention, the Warrior of Light would have perished on a number of occasions - and although an argument can be made for that being a necessity for the sake of the world's survival, it still means that the Warrior of Light's strength is not natural. To say nothing of the fact that he's now an entire soul's worth stronger than everybody else on the Source due to merging with Ardbert. Furthermore, the Echo provides insight and information that would not otherwise be easily discovered/known - which, again, has affected the course of history on a number of occasions.

As such, the course of history is not in the hands of man. It's dictated indirectly - and sometimes directly - by outside forces. Perhaps it will change in the future - though that remains to be seen. As for Hydaelyn, since she isn't actually a deity then the people deserve to know the truth of her nature instead of being led astray. Then they can have the choice to decide if they wish to hold her in high regard or not. Though I suspect that like many other inconvenient truths the masses will be spared from such knowledge 'for their own good'.

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Any time Hydaelyn acts it is in response to Ascian machination. There are thousands of years of history where, to the best of our knowledge, she has remained dormant and content to leave the races of man to their own devices. It is only when the Ascians begin acting in earnest that she empowers champions to act against them. The ones really trying to "take the reins of history from the hands of man" are the Ascians; case and point: Hydaelyn does nothing for the entirety of the Sixth Astral Era until an Ascian proxy comes knocking.

Refusing to allow Hydaelyn to act, directly or through a proxy, will lead to the end of man. Not the world, just the races of man. Compromising that principle for a few years once every few millennia is preferable to the alternative, would you not agree?

I agree that people deserve to know the truth about Hydaelyn, but we also need the other side of the story. Regardless of how much free will he had, Emet-Selch's account of how things happened was no doubt colored by his tempering by Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by purgatori

Since when? There are no meaningful choices available to the WoL in the MSQ.

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They even have some dialogue options to poke fun at it in some of the quests.

I'm not convinced that you can argue the the WoL's actions in the Steppes are permissible because they are part of the liberation of Doma and therefore a response to Garleans aggression which is a product of Ascian machinations. I mean, I'm okay with what happened in the Steppes, it all worked out okay. But I would be questioning it hard if it had gone wrong, if we'd ended up bringing Garleans aggression down like a thunderbolt on Little Sun and Sadu.

Free will isn't something you can have a bit of. You either have it or you don't. People on the Source and the Shards don't have it because more powerful beings are interfering in those people's choices to manipulate events to match the different agendas of said beings. Hydaelyn is like a mother who says 'yeah, go ahead, do whatever you want. No, stop that, you'll hurt yourself. Don't do that, you're making a mess. No, you can't have that, its bad for you.' Free will means the right to make any choice you want, regardless of outcome, even if it's a bad choice.

Now you can argue that it's better to have Hydaelyn interfering than have Lolorito running the world, but a lot of people dislike the idea of being any kind of divine puppet. And if Hydaelyn is making our decisions for us at any point, then she is taking away our free will. She may say she's doing it for our own good. She may even be right. But you absolutely can't argue that we have free will while she exists.

The situation with the Xaela is especially interesting when you consider that one of the biggest criticisms of Garlemald, as an Empire, is its forced conscription. Of course, the Garleans were actually under the impression that their cause was righteous and that the Primal threat needed to be resolved at any cost. We now know that it was a ploy by the Ascians, though in the case of the Warrior of Light and Scions they have no such excuse to hide behind. They actively participated in the manipulation of a proud race and set them about defending Doma, risking their lives in the process and refusing to give them the agency to decide for themselves.

My main concern is that it serves only to make the Xaela feel more like a useful tool to the Domans and with their traditions exploited in the manner in which they were the Warrior of Light is undeservedly a major figure in their hierarchy. I'd strongly prefer to avoid that sort of thing in the future, since not everything needs to revolve around the Warrior of Light and/or their allies.

It's why I find Hingashi so refreshing, I suppose - it's a neutral nation that isn't swayed one way or another by the politics of foreign organisations. I enjoyed the opportunity to explore cities with a stance of neutrality back in WoW, too, when I played that - in no small part due to faction war feeling very contrived to the point where it stifled many of the playable races.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I'm not convinced that you can argue the the WoL's actions in the Steppes are permissible because they are part of the liberation of Doma and therefore a response to Garleans aggression which is a product of Ascian machinations. I mean, I'm okay with what happened in the Steppes, it all worked out okay. But I would be questioning it hard if it had gone wrong, if we'd ended up bringing Garleans aggression down like a thunderbolt on Little Sun and Sadu.

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Everything comes with a risk. Whether we enlisted the aid of the Xaela tribes (by playing by their rules, then leaving them to their own devices) or not, our very presence on the Steppe drew Garlean attention, and at some point the Empire would have attacked them regardless. (World-spanning Empire, remember?)

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Originally Posted by Elladie

Free will isn't something you can have a bit of. You either have it or you don't. People on the Source and the Shards don't have it because more powerful beings are interfering in those people's choices to manipulate events to match the different agendas of said beings. Hydaelyn is like a mother who says 'yeah, go ahead, do whatever you want. No, stop that, you'll hurt yourself. Don't do that, you're making a mess. No, you can't have that, its bad for you.' Free will means the right to make any choice you want, regardless of outcome, even if it's a bad choice.

Now you can argue that it's better to have Hydaelyn interfering than have Lolorito running the world, but a lot of people dislike the idea of being any kind of divine puppet. And if Hydaelyn is making our decisions for us at any point, then she is taking away our free will. She may say she's doing it for our own good. She may even be right. But you absolutely can't argue that we have free will while she exists.

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Except at no point has Hydaelyn compelled anyone to do anything. She lends us power, but that's because she agrees with what we're doing anyway. The Ascians manipulate events to cause Rejoinings / Calamities, we set out to counter them, and Hydaelyn lends us that little extra bit we need to accomplish it due to the disparity in power between us.

This may play into Hydaelyn's agenda, but given said agenda is nothing but beneficial to us, and Hydaelyn is totally fine with a hands-off approach unless Ascians are interfering, how can one argue that she's smothering? She isn't. She hasn't been portrayed that way, at all, at any point. Her only agenda, as has been presented, is to prevent the races of man from becoming Zodiark's food. Not to dictate their histories or strip them of free will. (We know Hydaelyn doesn't compel anyone to do anything, because her chosen Warriors of Light on the First turned against her in a desperate bid to save their world.)

Hydaelyn's only "agenda," her raison d'etre, is allowing the races of man to live their own lives, rather than as livestock to fuel the Ancients' wish-granting machine (a.k.a. Zodiark). What is objectionable about that?

Not only Hydaelin is not compelling us to do anything, her blessing was taken from us way back in ARR, so she literally has no influence over the WoL anymore.

Zodiark was more of a reset button than a wish-granting machine, as well as a safeguard presumably against whatever caused the Sound. You can call that reset a "wish", and there is the question of what his nature is and how tempering affected them, but there is nothing to suggest for the time being that there was any intention to sacrifice to him on an on-going basis to get something out of him, beyond the final point of bringing back their fallen through the sacrifice of this "new life".

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Originally Posted by Tlamila

Not only Hydaelin is not compelling us to do anything, her blessing was taken from us way back in ARR, so she literally has no influence over the WoL anymore.

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It was also restored near the end of the 3.0 MSQ... and that is assuming that it would be the source of any influence, as opposed to something else, like the Echo.

We didn't even know that Hydaelyn was a Primal up until very recently and we also do not know everything about Hydaelyn's motives. It seems rather misleading to paint her in such a positive light, especially when the writers themselves are on record as stating that many conflicts in the setting are a matter of perspective/shades of grey rather than a case of 'good' and 'evil'.

The only notable exception to that rule thus far is Zenos - who was deliberately designed to lack any redeeming qualities. To me it seems as though the situation with Hydaelyn is a matter of some people simply refusing to acknowledge her flaws for...whatever reason. You see it a lot with certain characters in a lot of settings. Which is a shame, since it's usually the flaws and nuance that make many characters interesting in the first place.

At any rate, it seems like another circular discussion that isn't going to go anywhere so we're back to the whole 'agree to disagree' angle, I suppose. At least 5.2 isn't too far away so we'll be getting some fresh revelations soon enough.

Indeed, I am hoping we come away from 5.2/5.3 with a bit more clarity on this whole topic, as there's a thick mist hanging over it for the time being.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

...Except at no point has Hydaelyn compelled anyone to do anything. She lends us power, but that's because she agrees with what we're doing anyway. The Ascians manipulate events to cause Rejoinings / Calamities, we set out to counter them, and Hydaelyn lends us that little extra bit we need to accomplish it due to the disparity in power between us.

This may play into Hydaelyn's agenda, but given said agenda is nothing but beneficial to us...

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This may be the other way around. She may be handing out power to people that she knows would follow her agenda. She may not manipulate the individual, but she is manipulating the history of millions by distribution of power. For better or worse, many would take issue with such things.

Not sure if it will ever come to pass in story, but its interesting to think about a scenario, where Hydaelyns best interests are not in our best interest. Wonder how that would play out.

As for the Steppes... in hindsight "it worked", but the morals are questionable either way. Unless the xaela specifically told us to do it this way? I honestly cant remember much about that dialogue. Was it them who suggested to force the issue via the tournament? If so, then sure, conscript away!

i said it before n ill say it again my 1 hope is at some point we get to converse with zodiark and get his perspective on how things happened and or playing out not from the ascians but from the man himself.