Did people even ask for changes to AST, like they do / did for MNK and MCH?

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Spire and Ewer were two of the strongest cards because of their Royal Road effect (~3x power). It wasn’t as effective in solo or light party content, but none of the RR effects were great in that scenario either.

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As HyoMinPark I was talking about Spire's functionality as a tp replenishment tool which got severely diminished in usefulness from HW to SB

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

This is honestly a mood.

It could be incredibly annoying to get a Spread Spire, Drawn Spire, AOE Royal Road with Lady of Crowns in a Sleeve Draw—and you’d just be sitting here like “ugh what are these cards”. And then the next time you use Sleeve, you get the god-tier Sleeve of Spread Balance, Drawn Balance, AOE Royal Road with Lord of Crowns. I liked that about Sleeve. The lows made the highs great.

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I sort of just tried to come up with another system where cards still had effects that were noticeable but people also felt it was way too strong even if you nerfed pDPS.

It leaves me thinking that if a system where "all cards are can be felt and feel useful" is too strong then..

1. The cards either have to be all soupy, weak and homogenized which is really unsatisfying..

Or

2. You have to accept lows in order to get highs.

I would definitely pick the second option. Especially with the way that you had the ability to line up lucid and celestial with a good aoe card or choose when you would use time dilation, whether it was defensively on your tank with a stack of regens or to spend it on a damage dealing card combo and extend the high even more. It feels really good to get nice combos and line them up with extending your own cooldowns, the "soupy" option just feels like.. If i can continute to properly weave this for the next 12 minutes, I'll remain competitive?..

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

As HyoMinPark I was talking about Spire's functionality as a tp replenishment tool which got severely diminished in usefulness from HW to SB

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In that case you're right.

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Originally Posted by Synaesthesia

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Or you could have a system where each arcanum is guaranteed over a 180s period of time. Randomness and highs would come from the order that you get cards in, rather than each individual card.

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Originally Posted by Synaesthesia

I sort of just tried to come up with another system where cards still had effects that were noticeable but people also felt it was way too strong even if you nerfed pDPS.

It leaves me thinking that if a system where "all cards are can be felt and feel useful" is too strong then..

1. The cards either have to be all soupy, weak and homogenized which is really unsatisfying..

Or

2. You have to accept lows in order to get highs.

I would definitely pick the second option. Especially with the way that you had the ability to line up lucid and celestial with a good aoe card or choose when you would use time dilation, whether it was defensively on your tank with a stack of regens or to spend it on a damage dealing card combo and extend the high even more. It feels really good to get nice combos and line them up with extending your own cooldowns, the "soupy" option just feels like.. If i can continute to properly weave this for the next 12 minutes, I'll remain competitive?..

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Your system was listed as too strong because all of your cards were straight damage buffs—anywhere from 8% flat to scaling up to 12% for 30 seconds each. You didn’t mention anything about AOE versus Single-target, but if those were also applicable to AOE, then that’s even crazier. Giving AST that much—even with nerfing their personal damage—is too much. AOE Balance in HW and SB alone was enough to oust WHM, and it was just 5% AOE. You didn’t list anything that would balance AST against the other two healers after giving AST insane amounts of damage buffs. As I said in your thread, not every card has to be a damage card to be viable; and I would rather see more variety rather that the illusion your system would give.

Another poster—I believe, in your thread—brought up the idea of splitting offensive and utility cards, and allowing an AST to hold 1 offensive card and 1 utility card at a time. That would allow for Boles (20% mitigation) or Ewer (MP refresh) to no longer be competing with damage cards (Balance, Spear, and Arrow).

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Your system was listed as too strong because all of your cards were straight damage buffs—anywhere from 8% flat to scaling up to 12% for 30 seconds each. You didn’t mention anything about AOE versus Single-target, but if those were also applicable to AOE, then that’s even crazier. Giving AST that much—even with nerfing their personal damage—is too much. AOE Balance in HW and SB alone was enough to oust WHM, and it was just 5% AOE. You didn’t list anything that would balance AST against the other two healers after giving AST insane amounts of damage buffs. As I said in your thread, not every card has to be a damage card to be viable; and I would rather see more variety rather that the illusion your system would give.

Another poster—I believe, in your thread—brought up the idea of splitting offensive and utility cards, and allowing an AST to hold 1 offensive card and 1 utility card at a time. That would allow for Boles (20% mitigation) or Ewer (MP refresh) to no longer be competing with damage cards (Balance, Spear, and Arrow).

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In that thread, I've considered that it was too strong. I want to have a feeling like I can feel these cards but many people have a problem like "This is useless" because if it's not the best, it's nothing. I was thinking you could balance damage way down to offset it while making cards feel good, but it doesn't seem something that's agreeable. I did list the changes I felt that should happen to other healers when prompted by someone else, but did not want to make a huge "fix all of this at once" megathread when I started. As well, when you consider how each card would apply to AoE, the new Ewer, Spire and Bole would not have any optimal performance in an aoe situation. The effect of Ewer would only apply to 1/2 the party, Spire would be weaker than balance on most party members, and bole would be ineffective in almost every situation. But if it's too strong, that's okay. I don't need *that* system, I just want one that's good..

All of the cards systems I've seen so far are ultimately an illusion to someone though. If you're fishing for the most damage, the old system is an illusion. The new one is also an illusion because you have a predetermined optimal path as well. What matters is that there's enjoyment out of the illusion like having an effect you can feel, or a way to have agency over the effects you are given turning the illusion into a real choice - like extending a good effect when you have one and even lining it up with other effects like we used to be able to do.

Splitting them up could feel okay too!

I am surprised that more people aren't talking about the loss of two oGCD abilities that AST lost with the changes to the card system. The old lord and lady of crowns were either a free heal or damage skill which I thought were what everyone was after. These kinds of abilities seem to come up very often when people compare healers because most of the GCD abilities are very similar among the healers.

I think there was like some complaints about balance fishing, and useless card on the forums just before the launch of 5.0, which were non-problematic issues when compared to just the amount of attention the card mechanic can demand and cause players to lose focus on the healing mechanics. And, then what was implemented basically made it way more frantic and busy, so it ends up being more distracting while requiring way more fishing. The healing potencies were also super weak, which conflicted with the card design and attention requirements.

And, it really odd since like more people were focused on mastery with a few threads about improving whm (the only hlr that needed to be fixed) if I'm remembering everything properly

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I am surprised that more people aren't talking about the loss of two oGCD abilities that AST lost with the changes to the card system. The old lord and lady of crowns were either a free heal or damage skill which I thought were what everyone was after. These kinds of abilities seem to come up very often when people compare healers because most of the GCD abilities are very similar among the healers.

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Ah yes. Lord of Crowns. The result of getting a card you couldn't play or RR. Its main draw was being your strongest hitting attack that you never wanted to get, but at least it's not Lady.
Ah yes. Lady of Crowns. Only ever used for healing WAR just before they used upheavel, because who would plan around having a card that required 3 bad RNG rolls.

10/10, would convert Bole into again.

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Originally Posted by Reyna_Balmore

Would having a 4.x AST and SCH, with 5.x WHM have been desirable and functional today?

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That's basically the same state the healers were in in 4.x.

I won't say that WHM wasn't improved from 4.x, but if 4.x SCH and AST was retained, those changes would not be good enough to make them any more desirable than they were then.

As far as changes to AST; I was screaming for them prior to ShB, and I am pretty silent about them now. It doesn't mean I'm content, I'm just kind of waiting to see what they do with it in these upcoming patches. I know I don't want the old card system back, but the flow of the new system is a bit whacky right now. It is still a solid healer, but the card mechanic needs more work. AST's APM is really high, and if there has been any change I've asked for is for this to be reduced. I actually wouldn't mind if draw times were increased, but the cards themselves to have far more impact.

They seem to be placing more abilities on the GCD for jobs that had a high APM like NIN and SMN, but also making them stronger. If they follow that trend with AST, the changes could be interesting. I am at least a little hopeful for AST mains.

Yes, but with 5.0 Whm now and with 4.0 Ast / Sch, I'd believe would be satisfactory.

I was made about the Astro changes then leveled up to 80 and thought "sure its simpler but it isnt that bad' Prior to the Divination CD reduced to 120 rather than 180.

My issues with AST is its annoying to play in a all ranged/Physical party and Sleeve draw is useless in that regard as its a 50-50 chance it'll give me that card i want then id have to redraw to another card i dont need. That and Divination as a opener is gone or using Sleeve as a free Lady/Lords DPS buff which is equal or greater than divination giving 3 party members a buff .. in dungoens at least. Sleeve draw was chaotic but to me personally Sleeve wasnt the issue its just AST card system being boring and ineffective in some situations. but i dont raid so im not put to the fire so maybe i dont have valid point on the job

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Originally Posted by Jirah

I was made about the Astro changes then leveled up to 80 and thought "sure its simpler but it isnt that bad' Prior to the Divination CD reduced to 120 rather than 180.

My issues with AST is its annoying to play in a all ranged/Physical party and Sleeve draw is useless in that regard as its a 50-50 chance it'll give me that card i want then id have to redraw to another card i dont need. That and Divination as a opener is gone or using Sleeve as a free Lady/Lords DPS buff which is equal or greater than divination giving 3 party members a buff .. in dungoens at least. Sleeve draw was chaotic but to me personally Sleeve wasnt the issue its just AST card system being boring and ineffective in some situations. but i dont raid so im not put to the fire so maybe i dont have valid point on the job

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You do have a valid opinion on the job, you've levelled it up past at least 1 level cap. Raiding is not everything. Most of the game and playerbase is outside of raids

surprised to see this thread necro'd

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

You do have a valid opinion on the job, you've levelled it up past at least 1 level cap. Raiding is not everything. Most of the game and playerbase is outside of raids

surprised to see this thread necro'd

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Yea, I just thought it was necessary with the recent Ast changes. I'll let it die again once this all blows over

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Originally Posted by Reyna_Balmore

Yes, but with 5.0 Whm now and with 4.0 Ast / Sch, I'd believe would be satisfactory.

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I don't think I'll ever understand this community's open double standard when it comes to WHM. One nuke + 1 dot + random occasional oGCD heal? Wonderful, amazing, best the job has ever been. Oh we're talking about a job that's not WHM? Horrible, awful, need to revert immediately, why would anyone enjoy this.

All I'm saying is, now that all three healers have been dumbed down to approximately the same level of boredom, I find it really interesting that most of this forum thinks this is both a wonderful thing for WHMs and a terrible thing for everyone else. Really gets the noggin joggin'.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I don't think I'll ever understand this community's open double standard when it comes to WHM

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Actually no, most whm's on this forum want more than just holy/glare/dia with the occasional blood lily. Its usually the other healers that want whm to be treated as the "beginning" healer when that shouldn't be the case. Conjurer is the beginning healer, not whm.

Ask any whm and you'll find that they want 3 things
1. More dps options
2. raid utility to avoid slipping back to HW's boot out by optimising idiots parties
3. the constant stripping of whm staples and nerfs to holy to cease

I see a lot of WHM that say they want fluid aura removed, but why not buff it instead?

I think Fluid could become sort of like Blizzard II, where it could be a 100 potency ability on a 30 second cooldown or something. like a baby holy that can be thrown out, but instead of stunning it holds enemies in place. something small for the early levels that can get an upgrade later down the line

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Originally Posted by bundythenoob

I see a lot of WHM that say they want fluid aura removed, but why not buff it instead?

I think Fluid could become sort of like Blizzard II, where it could be a 100 potency ability on a 30 second cooldown or something. like a baby holy that can be thrown out, but instead of stunning it holds enemies in place. something small for the early levels that can get an upgrade later down the line

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This. Fluid Aura should be buffed, not removed. Having a Water spell would be great for the job since it LITERALLY fits into WHM lore. If Y'shtola can have water spells in the game, then so can WHM. Seriously, there are water spells coded into the game, yet only Y'shtola can access them! Even in Shadowbringers where she is a Black Mage!

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Originally Posted by Reyna_Balmore

Yea, I just thought it was necessary with the recent Ast changes. I'll let it die again once this all blows over

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It's alright, we're all sinners here.


I just... really want the current battle team to take a step back and ask other teams for input about how to make healers work. Ask the encounter design teams how healers should work- "well, we design raids / extremes / ultimates to have lots of healer damage time... does that mesh with any player feedback?"
I get that most of the playerbase doesn't run that kind of content, but at the end of the day, nobody is happy when they're given a square peg and told to fit it into a round hole. All content is made by the encounter design team, so if everyone above a certain content difficulty line is complaining about 75% uptime and no variety in that 75%, then chances are pretty good that all content below that line could be a lot more fun by the same types of changes.

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Originally Posted by Gravagar

It's alright, we're all sinners here.


I just... really want the current battle team to take a step back and ask other teams for input about how to make healers work. Ask the encounter design teams how healers should work- "well, we design raids / extremes / ultimates to have lots of healer damage time... does that mesh with any player feedback?"
I get that most of the playerbase doesn't run that kind of content, but at the end of the day, nobody is happy when they're given a square peg and told to fit it into a round hole. All content is made by the encounter design team, so if everyone above a certain content difficulty line is complaining about 75% uptime and no variety in that 75%, then chances are pretty good that all content below that line could be a lot more fun by the same types of changes.

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I believe this may be due to the fact that the FFXIV battle systems development team only has like 4 people working on the jobs, and those devs have openly said that they dislike playing tanks and healers. If anything, square enix needs to use the money they've gotten from SHB sales to hire a dedicated tank and healer dev, or else this problem will persist for the next xpac. I'm not even sure why they didn't hire a dedicated tank and dedicated healer dev with the money they made in STB. I'm not even sure why nobody is questioning this or talking about it more. it seems like a huge problem going forward in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by bundythenoob

I'm not even sure why nobody is questioning this or talking about it more. it seems like a huge problem going forward in my opinion.

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It has been brought up before multiple times since the media tour for ShB but we've never had an official response. When it's discussed on the forums (outside the healer section that is) the posts discussing the issue are usually ignored or it's seen as a non-issue. At times it seems like the lack of engagement on the issue is a sort of tacit approval of the current state of things, which just demoralizes people and prevents further/continued discussion. Defeatism has set in.

I imagine we'll see the issue being picked up again for the next media tour, but who knows how far out that is.


I do think there is a serious disconnect between the devs and the community however. If we look at the ShB media tour again there were multiple examples where the devs outright failed to understand and communicate with the community, Japanese or foreign, when it came to healers. It almost felt as if they didn't know how to handle healers, so they kept trying to brush us under the rug and ignore us or something.

Not going to lie, I'm still a little salty over their lack of any questions/answers during their interviews as well lol. I just hope the next tour is more professional.

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Originally Posted by Shalan

It has been brought up before multiple times since the media tour for ShB but we've never had an official response. When it's discussed on the forums (outside the healer section that is) the posts discussing the issue are usually ignored or it's seen as a non-issue. At times it seems like the lack of engagement on the issue is a sort of tacit approval of the current state of things, which just demoralizes people and prevents further/continued discussion. Defeatism has set in.

I imagine we'll see the issue being picked up again for the next media tour, but who knows how far out that is.


I do think there is a serious disconnect between the devs and the community however. If we look at the ShB media tour again there were multiple examples where the devs outright failed to understand and communicate with the community, Japanese or foreign, when it came to healers. It almost felt as if they didn't know how to handle healers, so they kept trying to brush us under the rug and ignore us or something.

Not going to lie, I'm still a little salty over their lack of any questions/answers during their interviews as well lol. I just hope the next tour is more professional.

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i for one am still ultra salted over the DRK and SCH gameplay identity changes, and the lack of necessary QOL updates to bring DRK and SCHs leveling kits up to par with their fellow jobs has left me in a state of barely wanting to play the jobs that brought me to love this game. I seriously hope that some of the insane amount of money this game generates get put into hiring at least one competent developer for both tanks and healers, because the future won't look so bright if they continue to rely on reluctant DPS devs to balance the role.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I don't think I'll ever understand this community's open double standard when it comes to WHM. One nuke + 1 dot + random occasional oGCD heal? Wonderful, amazing, best the job has ever been. Oh we're talking about a job that's not WHM? Horrible, awful, need to revert immediately, why would anyone enjoy this.

All I'm saying is, now that all three healers have been dumbed down to approximately the same level of boredom, I find it really interesting that most of this forum thinks this is both a wonderful thing for WHMs and a terrible thing for everyone else. Really gets the noggin joggin'.

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I don't think people are really happy with WHM either, just that WHM in SB was so bad that they take anything they can get at this point. ShB WHM, while still not great, is a significant improvement over 4.x WHM whereas SCH got completely butchered and AST had it's fair share of terrible design decisions as well.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I don't think I'll ever understand this community's open double standard when it comes to WHM. One nuke + 1 dot + random occasional oGCD heal? Wonderful, amazing, best the job has ever been. Oh we're talking about a job that's not WHM? Horrible, awful, need to revert immediately, why would anyone enjoy this.

All I'm saying is, now that all three healers have been dumbed down to approximately the same level of boredom, I find it really interesting that most of this forum thinks this is both a wonderful thing for WHMs and a terrible thing for everyone else. Really gets the noggin joggin'.

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The current lily system is a big improvement over the previous one.
I'm enjoying that aspect of WHM. And I think many others are the same. With the Afflatus heals they went in the right direction, to give WHM something at least. That doesn't mean WHM is wonderful or amazing, only compared to the absolute mess we had before. I hope healers will be better, more interesting, in the next expansion, without becoming even more dumbed down and/or clunky.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I don't think I'll ever understand this community's open double standard when it comes to WHM. One nuke + 1 dot + random occasional oGCD heal? Wonderful, amazing, best the job has ever been. Oh we're talking about a job that's not WHM? Horrible, awful, need to revert immediately, why would anyone enjoy this.

All I'm saying is, now that all three healers have been dumbed down to approximately the same level of boredom, I find it really interesting that most of this forum thinks this is both a wonderful thing for WHMs and a terrible thing for everyone else. Really gets the noggin joggin'.

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It's more to do with people accepting White Mage as the lesser of three evils. While equally flawed in its tediousness. White Mage's simplicity works better because that's always been the overall focus of the job. Scholar, meanwhile, lost a huge amount of its identity as the more DPS focused healers that managed a pet. While Astro had its whole card system revamped—a change many players still hate. Basically, White Mage's gimmick worked. Absurdity also brings up a good point. This is the first time since Creator White Mage is actually valued beyond being the "prog healer." Last expansion, you were pretty much expected to play Astro even in mid-core statics not only due to FFlogs but because Astro was objectively better in nearly every category.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I don't think I'll ever understand this community's open double standard when it comes to WHM. One nuke + 1 dot + random occasional oGCD heal? Wonderful, amazing, best the job has ever been. Oh we're talking about a job that's not WHM? Horrible, awful, need to revert immediately, why would anyone enjoy this.

All I'm saying is, now that all three healers have been dumbed down to approximately the same level of boredom, I find it really interesting that most of this forum thinks this is both a wonderful thing for WHMs and a terrible thing for everyone else. Really gets the noggin joggin'.

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Yea, I would explain myself, because I guess it isn't obvious as I thought it should have been, but the responses above pretty much explains it all.

BUT, I would add that they should use 5.0 Whm, 4.0 Ast / Sch as a base to build off of and improve even further

I’m returning after bouncing out in 4.2 and the AST changes make my brain hurt. Both AST and SCH look like they heard my complaints about controller button bloat and just canned everything..... despite those complaints being from 3.0. I will absolutely add to the pile that Balance was, literally, the only good card since it was purely beneficial in all situations. Everything else had some issue in certain situations, mostly resource management, that simply wasn’t a factor with Balance.

What little I’m gleaning from this recent patched I’ve walked into is AST was gutted of complexity and RNG.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

It's more to do with people accepting White Mage as the lesser of three evils. While equally flawed in its tediousness. White Mage's simplicity works better because that's always been the overall focus of the job. Scholar, meanwhile, lost a huge amount of its identity as the more DPS focused healers that managed a pet. While Astro had its whole card system revamped—a change many players still hate.

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Oh I get that- I'm just trying to tease the premises behind one of the prevailing opinions around here to their logical conclusion. So we have the boring simple healer and the two complex healers. The complex healers became boring and simple too. What makes me roll my eyes is the suggestion that we return the two more complex healers to their former glory, but starting from the boring and simple 5.x is good enough for the WHMs. Making it less boring is a task to be solved going forward. Or something. Which I think is partially highlighted here:

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This is the first time since Creator White Mage is actually valued beyond being the "prog healer." Last expansion, you were pretty much expected to play Astro even in mid-core statics not only due to FFlogs but because Astro was objectively better in nearly every category.

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Excellent! Finally a place outside being a throwaway progression healer. I don't think this is a point in 5.x WHM's favor. It's because the two perenially overpowered healers got hit by a bus. I guess the flaw I see here is that A) making SCH and AST overpowered "good at everything" healers again, while also B) keeping WHM as Babby's First Healer who's only good at direct damage and direct healing are two concepts that to me smell like they inevitably lead to...well, a healing landscape where WHM is the job that gets trashcanned by the two that are just better in every way. Again.

I'd like all three healers to get a deluxe spa treatment and emerge in 6.0 as fun, smooth, and great jobs. What I disagree with is the implicit claim that "the significantly simpler healer" versus "the complex healers" is a tractable problem that we'll just iron out in design details. I think pigeonholing WHM in the "braindead simple healer" category is exactly the cause of its tedium and chronic underpowered state, and trying to "bring it up" to the other two while also enforcing this "pressing more than three buttons is too hard" identity on it is only going to end in exactly what happened in Stormblood. But hey, at least ASTs and SCHs were having fun then.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I'd like all three healers to get a deluxe spa treatment and emerge in 6.0 as fun, smooth, and great jobs. What I disagree with is the implicit claim that "the significantly simpler healer" versus "the complex healers" is a tractable problem that we'll just iron out in design details. I think pigeonholing WHM in the "braindead simple healer" category is exactly the cause of its tedium and chronic underpowered state, and trying to "bring it up" to the other two while also enforcing this "pressing more than three buttons is too hard" identity on it is only going to end in exactly what happened in Stormblood. But hey, at least ASTs and SCHs were having fun then.

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It's definitely possible to make WHM more complex while keeping its "simple" roots. if anything I definitely think aero 3 needs to return and fluid aura needs to play an integral part of its dps rotation. there should be a rework to divine benison that makes it act like the healer equivalent of TBN, something to spice the gameplay up. I can't really think of any ways to do it myself, but hopefully they hire a healer developer who can, because going forward they need to keep all of the healers balanced, or else SHB was all for nothing

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Yes, they do.

My favorite go to example is Bard. I got into bard right towards the end of ARR, when it was pretty good and pretty fun. Then heavensward dropped. Oops. As the expac went on, people on the forums just went "git gud and adapt" and fans of the class lost more and more hope. But come Stormblood they - thankfully - completely ditched the "bard mage" concept. And both bringing the concept about and then abolishing it again pretty much completely changed how the job worked and played.

With the enormous amount of feedback on AST cards, I don't think there's any doubt at all that the current system is a dead card walking for 6.0. Of course, I do understand waiting for the next expac is painful. WHM is the healer I play most and we just got out of Stormblood which was a hellish time for the job. But then, WHM serves as another example. SE was told many, many times what a terrible, horrible system lillies are, and in Shadowbringers it was thoroughly reworked and overhauled.

Back to AST cards again, the dev team already apologized in one of the earlier... interviews or LLs? I don't remember which exactly. They know people don't like it. Chances are they're already planning a redesign. It's just a matter waiting though again, I do relate to how waiting can be painful.

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That being said, I think there's a pretty close to zero chance we'll see AST cards similar to 3.x/4.x. Personally, I think the current AST is setup nicely for the next expansion where they can expand upon the cards and seal system. Game has gone past the system of RNG damage buffs and it can no longer be tolerated in this day and age.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

That being said, I think there's a pretty close to zero chance we'll see AST cards similar to 3.x/4.x. Personally, I think the current AST is setup nicely for the next expansion where they can expand upon the cards and seal system. Game has gone past the system of RNG damage buffs and it can no longer be tolerated in this day and age.

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I do kinda agree. I'm viewing any card / AST changes as just bandaids to hold us over till the next expansion.


It sucks that we're going to have to wait a full year-plus to have a fully-baked system, and by no means would I complain if we got a reversion... but at the same time, I'd love for them to come up with some wild addition that makes everybody say "yo, this new system is DOPE." I'm still very concerned about the people doing the AST revamps and the higher-up direction they're being given... If nothing changes, the results might wind up being similar.

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Originally Posted by bundythenoob

i for one am still ultra salted over the DRK and SCH gameplay identity changes, and the lack of necessary QOL updates to bring DRK and SCHs leveling kits up to par with their fellow jobs has left me in a state of barely wanting to play the jobs that brought me to love this game. I seriously hope that some of the insane amount of money this game generates get put into hiring at least one competent developer for both tanks and healers, because the future won't look so bright if they continue to rely on reluctant DPS devs to balance the role.

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SCH had one of the best designed kits in 3.0 and a lot of 4.0. Instead of bringing the other healers up, they nerfed SCH down.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

SCH had one of the best designed kits in 3.0 and a lot of 4.0. Instead of bringing the other healers up, they nerfed SCH down.

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And in a lot of ways (Mostly QA) it was warranted. Tank Mastery and the VIT gear changes solved more of the problem than people give it credit for though. Those on top of the SCH nerfs and the general reduction in healer complexity are what make everything absurd.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

And in a lot of ways (Mostly QA) it was warranted. Tank Mastery and the VIT gear changes solved more of the problem than people give it credit for though. Those on top of the SCH nerfs and the general reduction in healer complexity are what make everything absurd.

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No job deserved what SCH got. I wouldn't wish this kind of rework on even BLM, with their privilege status as Yoshida's Job of Choice that leaves even en-Balanced, Partnered samurais green with envy.


I mean, yeah, cutting the effectiveness of shields in half via under-the-hood changes was definitely a nerf. The reason people don't give them much credit is because the nerf was underhanded and wasn't written down in the patch notes. Can't argue with the point that the shadow nerf, plus homogenizations, plus over-simplification, plus SCH-specific kit evisceration were total overkill.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

SCH had one of the best designed kits in 3.0 and a lot of 4.0. Instead of bringing the other healers up, they nerfed SCH down.

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Not gonna lie, 3.0 was my favorite.
I can understand 4.0 and still like it in some ways.
But 5.0 is big NOPE. I can go with some "nerf" such as Critlo and the fairy is they felt like SCH was too powerful. No problem. But cutting so many skills ? I'm sorry but that's not gonna work. DoTs ? Real Fairy managment ? Hello ? They even tried to rob Energy drain from us.

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Originally Posted by Gravagar

No job deserved what SCH got. I wouldn't wish this kind of rework on even BLM, with their privilege status as Yoshida's Job of Choice that leaves even en-Balanced, Partnered samurais green with envy.


I mean, yeah, cutting the effectiveness of shields in half via under-the-hood changes was definitely a nerf. The reason people don't give them much credit is because the nerf was underhanded and wasn't written down in the patch notes. Can't argue with the point that the shadow nerf, plus homogenizations, plus over-simplification, plus SCH-specific kit evisceration were total overkill.

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Hey, at least SCH still exists. Old AST is as dead as old MCH, and nobody asked for it.

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Originally Posted by ShinShimon

Hey, at least SCH still exists. Old AST is as dead as old MCH, and nobody asked for it.

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??? Old SCH is just as dead as those other ones, though?

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Originally Posted by Gravagar

No job deserved what SCH got. I wouldn't wish this kind of rework on even BLM, with their privilege status as Yoshida's Job of Choice that leaves even en-Balanced, Partnered samurais green with envy.


I mean, yeah, cutting the effectiveness of shields in half via under-the-hood changes was definitely a nerf. The reason people don't give them much credit is because the nerf was underhanded and wasn't written down in the patch notes. Can't argue with the point that the shadow nerf, plus homogenizations, plus over-simplification, plus SCH-specific kit evisceration were total overkill.

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I'm more bothered by the sheer lack of need to tank heal beyond minimal resources and busters. Tank Mastery essentially replaced the HW fairy while being even more boring for both tanks and healers overall. But the general shift of mitigation duties onto DPS as well as the condensation of autoattacks to specific windows (often with none at all going out during mechanics the entire group has to juggle) also aids in that matter. It simply felt more fair in ShB where Tanks were guaranteed to have their DPS stance on most of the time so they actually got wrecked if you didn't maintain regens or fairy positioning near them. SCH's healing capabilities were overbearing, but in particular they never needed any help tank healing at all (which, again, mostly stemmed from Quickened Aetherflow's effects on their power level). I would be fine with more evenly distributed autos that hit for less alongside a change to Tank Mastery to be influenced by stance, letting tanks choose to go ham on DPS like they used to at a defensive and aggro cost. So long as we retained every other change we got, save the ShB launch nerf to Embrace, I think SCH would be in a decent position just by virtue of reintroducing the regen tax on AST/WHM again.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

I'm more bothered by the sheer lack of need to tank heal beyond minimal resources and busters. Tank Mastery essentially replaced the HW fairy while being even more boring for both tanks and healers overall. But the general shift of mitigation duties onto DPS as well as the condensation of autoattacks to specific windows (often with none at all going out during mechanics the entire group has to juggle) also aids in that matter. It simply felt more fair in ShB where Tanks were guaranteed to have their DPS stance on most of the time so they actually got wrecked if you didn't maintain regens or fairy positioning near them. SCH's healing capabilities were overbearing, but in particular they never needed any help tank healing at all (which, again, mostly stemmed from Quickened Aetherflow's effects on their power level). I would be fine with more evenly distributed autos that hit for less alongside a change to Tank Mastery to be influenced by stance, letting tanks choose to go ham on DPS like they used to at a defensive and aggro cost. So long as we retained every other change we got, save the ShB launch nerf to Embrace, I think SCH would be in a decent position just by virtue of reintroducing the regen tax on AST/WHM again.

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We do agree that this is mostly an encounter design issue, I think, and not a job design one. Right?
I'd be happier living in the timeline where WHM, AST, and encounter design in general were all buffed to keep pace with SCH, than the one where SCH gets disemboweled but encounter design actually becomes less healer-taxing rather than more... that being the one we're on now. The former sounds a lot more interesting to me.


I'd much rather see a reset of SCH to Stormblood, and pretend Shadowbringers didn't exist, than see this horridly broken edition of SCH evolve. It has very little job identity currently- not a whole lot better than a Great Value White Mage whose mom lets it have two minions!

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Originally Posted by Gravagar

??? Old SCH is just as dead as those other ones, though?

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Hey, you still have shields and your fairy. The AST changes are comparable to removing Lily entirely and giving you a pet mosquito, which gives a single random party member a 5% damage resist buff every 30 seconds.

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Originally Posted by ShinShimon

Hey, you still have shields and your fairy. The AST changes are comparable to removing Lily entirely and giving you a pet mosquito, which gives a single random party member a 5% damage resist buff every 30 seconds.

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that's exactly what they did though???
I'm partially joking here, buut....

Until Deployment Tactics or something lets me deploy a whopper of a shield that makes my party go "whoa, that was awesome. Woweee, I'm really glad we had a scholar here," I'm going to say that aspect of SCH is dead. If I want big shields, I play Diurnal AST, because AST has the best shields and no one can stack single target shields higher more than Diurnal Regen Astrologian in particular.


Until there's some reason why I would want to use a fairy ability from the fairy, instead of myself, I'm going to say the pet aspect is dead. I used to like that the fairy was a parellel GCD that I could issue orders to while I was doing Scholar Things (tm). If I want to have defensive and regenerating oGCD abilities, I play, again, Diurnal AST, because their oGCD menu doesn't have a ~50% potency tax or any ghosting issues.