So, they fix 2B's tights due to community feedback...

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Hear, hear!

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If you keep replying as soon as Theo makes a post in a thread, Lauront, folks are going to start thinking you are both the same person ....

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Originally Posted by Elladie

If you keep replying as soon as Theo makes a post in a thread, Lauront, folks are going to start thinking you are both the same person ....

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We live together!

I guess that would make shouting "Get a room!" redundant.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

We live together!

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Get a room!

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I guess that would make shouting "Get a room!" redundant.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

Get a room!

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That was quicker than I expected. haha

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I very much prefer the cards the way they are now. I am very happy with healers overall, and so are the people I interact with in game on a daily basis. Folk on the forums sometimes forget they aren't necessarily a majority.

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I do too. I can't speak for scholar I don't know it. I'm a WHM main and I love my role and what they did to it. I could care less about what the healer crowd has to say on this forum because in reality here people are never happy and they cry about everything. Relative to Astro I like the changes. Personally I don't feel the role is as strong as WHM and i love the instant heals we were given in the xpac.

That's not to say that Astro can't use any improvements but the cards are certainly not one of them in my view.

About GNB sound effects - in 5.0 it was basically gunblade, slicing, some mechanical clicking, pulling the trigger. It was fine. Then for no reason it was changed to something resembling a club, all slicing removed, trigger sounds removed.
It's a huge downgrade and definitely majority wants them changed or even reverted, but for no reason devs refuse. I'm still voicing my opinion because for me these new sounds are so awful that it's like one big april fools joke. You constantly hear these loud thumps but your character wields a blade. Extremely annoying.
Remember to send them in-game suggestion via support desk menu if you also feel like blade shouldn't sound like a club.

You can find 5.0 and 5.01 comparison on Twitter.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I do too. I can't speak for scholar I don't know it. I'm a WHM main and I love my role and what they did to it. I could care less about what the healer crowd has to say on this forum because in reality here people are never happy and they cry about everything. Relative to Astro I like the changes. Personally I don't feel the role is as strong as WHM and i love the instant heals we were given in the xpac.

That's not to say that Astro can't use any improvements but the cards are certainly not one of them in my view.

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I've found this to be an issue that for the most part the forums have been reasonable on, which I find unusual for an MMO forum. So I don't think it's fair to simply dismiss it as people on the forum crying about everything and never being happy. But I've only been vocal since the ShB changes, because SB's weren't ideal, but at least they had something to keep me going and not complain, because I realise not everybody gets the same thing out of the job as me.

But ShB kinda took the cake a bit, hence I started posting on the forum and found other people were doing the same, some, who like me hadn't really spoken out on the forum before the media tour when our ShB skills were announced.

I used to be very happy with my healers (2.0 and 3.0 for me were the golden years), but you don't tend to speak out when you're happy with what you've got and they've been moved to a point I just find them boring, possibly due to what people who were unhappy with the way there were had been complaining about.

That said, there's absolutely no issue people enjoying healers in their current state. At each expansion, different people have clicked with what works great for them, hence my vision of a SCH for example might be different to what somebody who started playing SCH in SB might have.

Whilst I would absolutely love an evolution of my 2.0 experience. I've been willing to compromise at "make our downtime fun", hence much of my feedback has taken it into account and I've tried to make suggestions that respect the current design/direction. I've found the general consensus among disgruntled healers is that having more to do in their downtime is a desirable outcome of the problems they have with healers, to not raise the skill floor but only to raise the skill ceiling.

As far as solutions go, giving us more to do more in the downtime requires the least shake up in design and probably is the fairest compromise between those who enjoyed healers as they were and those who enjoy healers as they are. Because healing mechanics would remain exactly as they are. Whilst it's not the only problem people have, but at least it'd mean those who are finding they've got a big gap of not healing that they're not getting bored spamming the same skill over and over.


But as part of the ongoing healer discussions. I did some calculations/tests. I found as a SCH who is a semi-casual player, I'm getting 30-65% downtime in dungeons and trials (I expect a better skilled player than me might get more). 30% tends to be wall-to-wall and fights with heavier AoE damage or groups who aren't doing so well.
That's a big chunk of time spamming Art of War or Broil, with the odd Biolysis or Energy Drain.

Didn't read all 5 pages but in case it hasn't been said.... @ OP ...

Art team and mechanics' devs are not very likely to be the same people....

The problem I have with the cards is the same one I have with most of the jobs in the game at the moment: instead of coming up with creative methods to get around specific issues that plagued the job, the gutting inadvertently "fixed' them. Like setting a house on fire to kill a spider. Sure, the spider's gone so there's that but so is everything else and most people are disappointed and angry at your lazy decision to apply scorched earth tactics...


But the spider is gone so yaaay... improvement?

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

its really is sad when SE talks about 2b butts in length at a live letter which is a feature they only introduced at 5.1 while healers who suffer from various issues such as fairy delays,AST cards, AST card system and controller based issues with it ,the dull and boring gameplay since 5.0 never received a pip in a live letter.
from how i see it, that shows what SE truly thinks about the healer jobs which is healers aren't important at all :( .

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My sentiments exactly. I brought up the very same thing in the 2B butt thread, and was pretty much appalled with the amount of time and attention that was given to a piece of human anatomy that doesn't affect the game at all other than where the devs are choosing to allocate their time. All the while, issues such as with our healers continue to get ignored.

I even remember looking at their faces in the huge live letter prior to ShB release that had the ability trailers. It was almost like they were extremely nervous to present to us what they came up with after it was specifically stated by them that they were looking at the healers, and want to address the balance issues. Little did we know then the forthcoming spade and neutering to the role that was the drastic changes to SCH and AST. A lot of us knew the nerf hammer was coming, but only a select few could predict that such drastic changes would be made without even touching what was truly going on with the healers in the first place.

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Originally Posted by MOZZYSTAR

...But they don't fix classes - like AST's cards - due to community feedback? I don't know if I should laugh or cry. xD

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The devs are all about the ass, but not the AST.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I do too. I can't speak for scholar I don't know it. I'm a WHM main and I love my role and what they did to it. I could care less about what the healer crowd has to say on this forum because in reality here people are never happy and they cry about everything. Relative to Astro I like the changes. Personally I don't feel the role is as strong as WHM and i love the instant heals we were given in the xpac.

That's not to say that Astro can't use any improvements but the cards are certainly not one of them in my view.

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You speak as if WHM doesn't have any problems when it actually has one of the biggest issues out of all the healers. The lily mechanic in Stormblood forced the WHM to play sub optimally if they wanted to take advantage of what it did, which was reduce CDs on several of their abilities. In Shadowbringers, while they did rework the lily mechanic, it still forces the WHM to play sub optimally in order to use Misery.

The two biggest issues with healers that are brought up is basically the change to AST cards, and 80% of what SCH used to do was ripped from them. Believe it or not, these are actually a lesser issue and have little involvement with the crux of the problem.

True issues hindering actual gameplay are things like ASTs high APM and difficult MP management. They are the only healer that doesn't have a straight MP gain like SCH aetherflow/energy drain or WHM Assize/Thin air. Taking fairy skills off of the pet hotbar was a HUGE mistake. The fairy kit is also heavily underutilized, and interaction with the fairy is becoming more distant with each expansion. Both Seraph and Lily have delay issues. OGCD heals are specifically contributing to healer boredom since they are so powerful and plentiful, they eat up any and all need to heal via GCDs, which many healers actually find engaging. WHM still has clipping issues, and the devs seem to think that giving them more instant cast abilities that are still on the GCD (the cause), will fix this issue.

Call those cries if you like, but I should remind you that even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I keep seeing people say that the old AST system was "fish for balance". If that's how you were playing AST, you were bad at AST. Bole saved the tank I was healing on numerous occasions, Ewer gave me enough mana to hold out for that extra 10-15 seconds where I wouldn't have had any mana at all left, Arrow (that was the crit card, right?) timed with BRD songs gave BRDs insane burst potential... Only people that were bad at AST would fish for balance.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

I keep seeing people say that the old AST system was "fish for balance". If that's how you were playing AST, you were bad at AST. Bole saved the tank I was healing on numerous occasions, Ewer gave me enough mana to hold out for that extra 10-15 seconds where I wouldn't have had any mana at all left, Arrow (that was the crit card, right?) timed with BRD songs gave BRDs insane burst potential... Only people that were bad at AST would fish for balance.

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I far more often find players fooled by the illusion of choice that was the previous system. If you weren't fishing for balance, you weren't doing what other players brought you in the party to do. Cards like the Bole and the Ewer were situational at best. Even in an optimal scenario to use them, neither were readily available to you because of the RNG. You would never use spread on an Ewer or a Bole to have for those situations because there is no guarantee they will come to pass. Royal Road; Spread; Redraw; Sleeve Draw... all a means to shave away the layers of RNG so you can AoE the Balance. If all else failed, then 99.9% of the time the card would be Minor Arcana fodder.

Tanks have their own mitigation, caster jobs all have the means to restore their own MP. Your bole, and your ewer was hardly ever needed, and in the situations where they helped, it was very likely because things weren't going right in the first place. Even then, the increase to raid DPS is still going to be more favorable as high outgoing DMG is one of the best ways to mitigate incoming DMG.

All balance. All the time. Always, or GTFO. That was the SB AST everyone loves so much.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

I keep seeing people say that the old AST system was "fish for balance". If that's how you were playing AST, you were bad at AST. Bole saved the tank I was healing on numerous occasions, Ewer gave me enough mana to hold out for that extra 10-15 seconds where I wouldn't have had any mana at all left, Arrow (that was the crit card, right?) timed with BRD songs gave BRDs insane burst potential... Only people that were bad at AST would fish for balance.

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I feel all they needed to do to keep those who fish for balance happy would have been to do what they did to Minor Arcana this time around. If they don’t like the card they’ve got, use a weaker version of the balance (as it is weaker than the old balance), it also remains an option if you don’t need the card you’ve drawn, you can make it useful.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

You speak as if WHM doesn't have any problems when it actually has one of the biggest issues out of all the healers. The lily mechanic in Stormblood forced the WHM to play sub optimally if they wanted to take advantage of what it did, which was reduce CDs on several of their abilities. In Shadowbringers, while they did rework the lily mechanic, it still forces the WHM to play sub optimally in order to use Misery.

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Eh ... no? I'm going through SB's Ultimate again and I'm sorely missing Rapture and Misery at lvl70, after clearing Eden Savage casting that many medica and cure 3 doesn't feel right anymore. Not to mention the lack of mobility after losing those skills.

What you are saying only apply to "BAD" Whitemage, aka those who spam lily just for the sake of getting misery. I know that's an real issue since whenever I don't play WHM in pug, I often see other (bad) WHM brag about spamming to get bloodlily, it's pretty much meme level. Also these WHM tend to care only about their DPS and often forget they're healer (that doesn't make them great at DPSing though). Proper WHM use the lily system to its full benefit both to maximize their DPS while fulfilling their role as a healer.

Proper WHM look at Misery as a refund system.

- Normal 4 GCD windows: if we have a to cast 3 Cure or 3 Medica and a glare, then it's 3 completely lost GCD (900 potency) in term of DPS.
- Lily 4 GCD windows: if we use 3 Afflatus skills and misery, then we only lose 1 GCD (300 potency) in term of DPS.

So it's not about losing 300 potency comparing to casting 4 glares, it's about only lose 300 while we would lose 900 otherwise. And that's only half of the benefit, the other half is the lily 4GCD windows are all instant cast, meaning large amount of mobility AND weaving opportunity. Consider how many oGCD and skill activation WHM has (Assize, Asylum, Temperance, Plenary, Benison, Tetra) plus situational (Swiftcast, Lucid, Thin Air, Presence, Bene), the afflatus are god sent since it means we almost never have to hard-clip a GCD or prematurely renew Regen or Dia. If you want to talk about futher optimization then pretty much all the fights so far have down window for you to dump lily if you just want to get Misery without losing actual DPS GCD, for example both Maelstrom phase in E3S.

For the record it did take SE a whole expack to make the lily system working well. As a WHM main I consider the class is so perfect now it's almost scary, I'm fearing this mean WHM gonna get screw up badly in the next expansion patch.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I far more often find players fooled by the illusion of choice that was the previous system. If you weren't fishing for balance, you weren't doing what other players brought you in the party to do. Cards like the Bole and the Ewer were situational at best. Even in an optimal scenario to use them, neither were readily available to you because of the RNG. You would never use spread on an Ewer or a Bole to have for those situations because there is no guarantee they will come to pass. Royal Road; Spread; Redraw; Sleeve Draw... all a means to shave away the layers of RNG so you can AoE the Balance. If all else failed, then 99.9% of the time the card would be Minor Arcana fodder.

Tanks have their own mitigation, caster jobs all have the means to restore their own MP. Your bole, and your ewer was hardly ever needed, and in the situations where they helped, it was very likely because things weren't going right in the first place. Even then, the increase to raid DPS is still going to be more favorable as high outgoing DMG is one of the best ways to mitigate incoming DMG.

All balance. All the time. Always, or GTFO. That was the SB AST everyone loves so much.

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And this is what separates the good AST from the bad. If you only saw them as situational, then you weren't using them correctly.

Bole Spread was added mitigation during group busters. Ewer spread I would agree is next to useless.
I agree the RNG aspect is a problem. But instead of addressing and fixing the problem, they left it in; RNG is still a problem.

Im sure its somewhere in here and I missed it.....but what is so bad about Ast's new card system again?
The only things I ever hear (of course I could easily be missing the argument) is how the Balance Meta is now gone. And how people miss just fishing for Balance.
Like its the Only card that mattered.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Im sure its somewhere in here and I missed it.....but what is so bad about Ast's new card system again?
The only things I ever hear (of course I could easily be missing the argument) is how the Balance Meta is now gone. And how people miss just fishing for Balance.
Like its the Only card that mattered.

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Objectively, the current system is not bad. And it wouldn't be an issue if it had been implemented as it is from the beginning.

Consider that you've been dining on steak and wine with lush vegetables and delicious three tier cake. Now, instead of this delicious meal, you're only offered water and crackers.

This current system is water and crackers. It has no depth, it's bland, it's boring. Is it effective? Sure. It's just boring and bland. It doesn't have the flavor and engagement that the original system had.

As for fishing for balance, as I've stated, only people are bad at AST did that. It's become a meme about the AST, kinda like "healer adjust" is a meme. Very few people actually played AST like that and even fewer groups expected AST to be played that way.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

And this is what separates the good AST from the bad. If you only saw them as situational, then you weren't using them correctly.

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In addition to the comment the same poster you replying regarding WHM's lily above, they both came across as from someone who doesn't play the classes at all, or only play it badly. I want to use this opportunity to point our the reality of the "complain" people see on the forums and why the devs sometime doesn't seem to response to them.

- Good players understand their class and know how to optimize to make the most of their kits.

That doesn't mean every classes can work. Sometime even good players still find a class underwhelming. In those case SE did make change, and we have seen quite a few changes both big and small across the board.

The 'community' illusion is often created by the type of post you're responding to. Like I said from people either not playing the class, or playing it badly to the meme. As a WHM main I had lost counts how many time I had to explain to other people Misery is a 'refund' system to encourage WHM to heal 'better', it's not an overheal dump for the big hit. Some of these people are not even bad players, but they simply don't play WHM. The other half is like I said people who play badly. In both case they only heard "Misery is your biggest hit, 3 lily give you a blood, all for the blood lily!". They just blindly follow the 'hype' without actually understand the context of the class. It's one thing for it to be a meme for fun and game (given the countless gif/cartoon on reddit), but it's another thing when people take that as the way the class intended to play. Samething for the old 'fishing Balance' on AST.


People always shout "SE is lazy and never make change" just because SE didn't make the one particular change THEY want, ignoring the fact we already see more adjustment then perhaps any other ex-pack in term of class balancing. But I bet they only do it after looking at actual raw data on how a class perform and not by the noise generating on the forum. For that I'm thankful.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

fishing for balance, as I've stated, only people are bad at AST did that. It's become a meme about the AST, kinda like "healer adjust" is a meme. Very few people actually played AST like that and even fewer groups expected AST to be played that way.

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All the people Ive run into that talk about Balance are the big Hardcore Meta players that do the New EX & Savage Raid content.
I dont know if I can agree or say these are people that are "BAD" with Ast or are playing it incorrectly, Just that they only saw one use of it. Or one playstyle.
But again this is just with the Newer Raids and Ex/Savage content.

Why dont they give us a buttslider so people can fix their butt problems themself. perioddtdtdt

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Originally Posted by RoseBnargin

Why dont they give us a buttslider so people can fix their butt problems themself. perioddtdtdt

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Because that means overhauling the character creation system, and something something PS3 limitations small indie company I dunno pick your meme.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Because that means overhauling the character creation system, and something something PS3 limitations small indie company I dunno pick your meme.

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Server Limitations™

Can't forget that one.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Proper WHM look at Misery as a refund system.

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Oh yeah. And that's how I defended the change to the lily system prior to ShBs release. Then I got WHM to 80, and threw it in some 8-man and 24-man to put the theory to the test.

Fact of the matter is (and since people want to use all content and not just savage/ultimate, which I am totally fine with) WHM or healing in general has a ogcd and regen threshold before you start using GCDs to heal. This includes Solace. The only exception is Rapture and the reason for this is because WHM has no ogcd AoE heal to turn to when they need the mobility. However, AoE heals are used far too liberally, especially in PUG content where two healers are flooding the raid with heals. What this all translates to is that in order to make use of Misery, you either have to over heal, choose to use Solace over Tetra, or hope the situation requires Rapture.

Again. Sub optimal. Or are you telling me the Lily system is perfect now?

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- Normal 4 GCD windows: if we have a to cast 3 Cure or 3 Medica and a glare, then it's 3 completely lost GCD (900 potency) in term of DPS.
- Lily 4 GCD windows: if we use 3 Afflatus skills and misery, then we only lose 1 GCD (300 potency) in term of DPS.

and on and on...

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You might want to save these statements for someone who is trying to use lost GCDs in their arguments.

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For the record it did take SE a whole expack to make the lily system working well. As a WHM main I consider the class is so perfect now it's almost scary, I'm fearing this mean WHM gonna get screw up badly in the next expansion patch.

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Disregard my last question. You do think it's perfect. Wow. Then I probably shouldn't point out that WHM is nearly identical to its SB version as far as playability. It gained Misery, but lost Aero 3. I still don't find myself needing the lilies whatsoever. I'll give it Rapture and that's about it.

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Originally Posted by Benjo

Male butts are still flat with the 2B bottoms ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

They need to address the issue equally.

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So are their fronts, which is a topic in and of itself that no one seems to want to mention lol

I mean, we don't need to have Conan Exiles, but at least give us something...

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Originally Posted by RoseBnargin

Why dont they give us a buttslider so people can fix their butt problems themself. perioddtdtdt

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Yoshida actually referenced the sliders issue years ago in an interview. I cant remember when/where (tried to find the interview but it was like 5 years ago, ARR was still newish at that time and there was a lot of talk about the limited character creation) but he said they choose to forgo using sliders in character creation beyond height and bust size and went strictly with 1-2-3 options because it would allow players to make ugly characters and pretty characters are what FF is known for, so if they allowed players to set their own parameters and make ugly characters, it would go against the FF brand. So choosing 1 2 3 4 and limited slider ranges when we actually have them, it is.

This is funny. This has been the MO that the fan base has praised since 2.0. Ignore certain issues, but talk in length about superficial design aspects.



Not sure how we can gauge if players are happy about healers. But they are mostly the job in need for bonus. That spot used to be exclusively tanks spot. That is superficial evidence though. I doubt SE is going to come out and say if healer numbers are down though. That would make their choices look bad. If healer numbers were good or better since expansion wouldn't they have gloated about it while dismissing complaints about some healer adjustment.

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Originally Posted by RoseBnargin

Why dont they give us a buttslider so people can fix their butt problems themself. perioddtdtdt

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One more time for the people in the back

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

In addition to the comment the same poster you replying regarding WHM's lily above, they both came across as from someone who doesn't play the classes at all, or only play it badly. I want to use this opportunity to point our the reality of the "complain" people see on the forums and why the devs sometime doesn't seem to response to them.

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Been healing in this game since late HW. All three healers are level 80, i450+, and I don't grind roulettes with other jobs to feed gear to another. Have just about every 'chievo you can get with a healer as well. How long you've been doing it? The reality of the devs not responding to all the complaints on the forums is simply because they are under no obligation to do so.

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They just blindly follow the 'hype' without actually understand the context of the class. It's one thing for it to be a meme for fun and game (given the countless gif/cartoon on reddit), but it's another thing when people take that as the way the class intended to play. Samething for the old 'fishing Balance' on AST.

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Actually, that's just called reading a tooltip. No parsers, fflogs, trying to beat my time on a SSS dummy; just good 'ol fashioned reading and putting it to practice. I really shouldn't have to point out that how a class is "supposed" to play is entirely subjective.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Fact of the matter is (and since people want to use all content and not just savage/ultimate, which I am totally fine with) WHM or healing in general has a ogcd and regen threshold before you start using GCDs to heal. This includes Solace. The only exception is Rapture and the reason for this is because WHM has no ogcd AoE heal to turn to when they need the mobility.

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Ehh ... What do you categorize Assize as if not an oGCD AOE heal? Assylum can also be technically an oGCD heal. Rapture is NOT an oGCD, it's an instant-GCD. You don't seem to even know the term for the argument you are using, so let me help you out:

- oGCD: off-GCD, action that doesn't take a global cool down to cast. Assize, Assylum (a ground AOE but can be counted as oGCD), Tetra, Benediction, Divine Benison fall onto this.
- GCD: action that cost a global cool down to use. All the skills in the lily line (solace, rapture, misery) belong to this category, as well as the Cure and medica line.

The GCD category break down into two sub category: instant or cast, with the lily line belong to the former and the Cure/Medica the latter. A cast make you lose the entire GCD for one action, the instant allow you to weave in 1 or 2 additional actions in the same GCD. And that's what make the lily system so powerful

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, you either have to over heal, choose to use Solace over Tetra

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Uh ... why? They don't belong to same category, and it's not like one prevent you from using another. I use them both at the same time all the time.

- In dungeon: it let you double top the tank from sub 50% in one GCD. (Solace GCD with Tetra oGCD weave).
- In raid: you can heal two targets at the same time if the situation demands it (share tank busters, or heal the tank and a stray DPS).

In both case, it let you heal effectively, you get two heal for the price of one. So ... ?

Yes, sometime you will see healers flood the raid with overheal, but depending on the situation it's not necessary sub-optimal, and maybe even sub-optimal if you don't do it. Unlike SB, the lily for Solace and Rapture is generated automatically at no cost to the player. That means if you sit on 3 Lily and don't use them, you are wasting your resource. And the math works out simply put that once you commit to use one single afflatus skill, you already pay the price for the use of a misery in full, so your next two afflatus heal are 'essentially free heal' with mobility/weaving benefit. That's not sub-optimized, that actually optimized.

You comment exactly exemplify the points I'm trying to make earlier.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Been healing in this game since late HW. All three healers are level 80, i450+, and I don't grind roulettes with other jobs to feed gear to another. Have just about every 'chievo you can get with a healer as well. How long you've been doing it?

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Been healing since 2.0, have 5 healers at 80 (all 3 on main and SCH/WHM on alt), all BiS at 470. Had cleared all the fights there is to clear outside of Ultimate (currently working on the last phase of UwU). Your point being?

I mean ... I only bring this up because you somehow think it will help vindicating your argument so there you go, I think it's irrelevant. Oh and it is because I am a WHM main since 2.0 that I fully appreciate how good it is right now. That's why I'm afraid it's probably just down hill from here.But let me tell you something:

I also had been trying to learn AST since it first came out and guess what, I have absolutely no shame in admitting I'm still very tragic with it comparing to the upper echelon of raiders. My years of playing it as well my the ilvl I have on a class has absolutely no bearing on my skill and understand of it. So I'm not exactly sure how you think it will help your argument when the things you spoke clearly demonstrate your lack of technical understand of the class itself.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Actually, that's just called reading a tooltip. No parsers, fflogs, trying to beat my time on a SSS dummy; just good 'ol fashioned reading and putting it to practice. I really shouldn't have to point out that how a class is "supposed" to play is entirely subjective.

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Funny, you actually wouldn't hear any argument from me against this. As you can see my post in this thread, I actually advocate that people don't need to look for external resource if they simply want to be decent about their class.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ution%21/page3

But neither I'm against people looking for external resource either, my argument here is neither against nor for, I only take issue when people following a guide or the meta "blindly", without understanding it. Or when people talk about meta simply from a 2nd hand experience which often what demonstrated on this forum. Your post was simply used as the immediate example, it's not like I'm arguing with you. Rather, I'm simply arguing why the devs only look at 'real' data, not just the "noise" generated on the forum when they want to make significant change to the classes.

I say this to you specifically though, it's commendable to try and learn everything 'the old fashion way', in fact that's how I think everyone should start out. But it's also necessary to keep an open mind from new perspective when:

- You 'put' your experience into claim on a public debate such as this, it's subjected to scrutiny. Especially when you claim is "factually" wrong, claiming WHM has no ogcd AoE heal is not a subjective statement.
- You may be proud about the theory you discovers yourself, but you can only improve if you're willing to compare and look at other parity. And no, putting your own theory to experiment on your own just to give you a pat in the back doesn't count, that's like asking a company to review their own product.

I consider myself these days as someone who can play decently with WHM, with the clear/achievement/number whatever you want to to call them to back it up. I'm proud to say a lot of it I discovered myself, but equally proud to say a lot of it also came from the help and pointers I got along the way. The result is I now can play in a way that both fun for me, and no party I'm with will find my performance wanting. If you simply want to talk about playing style though, I don't think that the direction the discussion was started, and also one I have no intend of pursuing, to each their own - as long as we're not in the same party.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I far more often find players fooled by the illusion of choice that was the previous system. If you weren't fishing for balance, you weren't doing what other players brought you in the party to do. Cards like the Bole and the Ewer were situational at best. Even in an optimal scenario to use them, neither were readily available to you because of the RNG. You would never use spread on an Ewer or a Bole to have for those situations because there is no guarantee they will come to pass. Royal Road; Spread; Redraw; Sleeve Draw... all a means to shave away the layers of RNG so you can AoE the Balance. If all else failed, then 99.9% of the time the card would be Minor Arcana fodder.

Tanks have their own mitigation, caster jobs all have the means to restore their own MP. Your bole, and your ewer was hardly ever needed, and in the situations where they helped, it was very likely because things weren't going right in the first place. Even then, the increase to raid DPS is still going to be more favorable as high outgoing DMG is one of the best ways to mitigate incoming DMG.

All balance. All the time. Always, or GTFO. That was the SB AST everyone loves so much.

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Making the best out of what hand you were dealt felt more engaging than fishing for balance before pre pulling in raids and etc. You still had other methods of turning either card into a instant heal effect. If you were so desperate to make the AST out of your party "Fish for balance" then somethings wrong with your parties DPS. Having a 19k MP Pool was very satisfying as an AST, having 10k with no other means to obtain MP other than lucid is awful. Illusion of choice? I swear you're making that excuse sound worse than it already is. Some people like the new card system? Good for them, it's the most boring unsatisfying experience I've had playing AST in 2 years. I know this for sure, those people are a small minority compared to the huge outcry I've seen about it. When the unique system of a class turns people away, you know there's something wrong with it.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

This is funny. This has been the MO that the fan base has praised since 2.0. Ignore certain issues, but talk in length about superficial design aspects.



Not sure how we can gauge if players are happy about healers. But they are mostly the job in need for bonus. That spot used to be exclusively tanks spot. That is superficial evidence though. I doubt SE is going to come out and say if healer numbers are down though. That would make their choices look bad. If healer numbers were good or better since expansion wouldn't they have gloated about it while dismissing complaints about some healer adjustment.

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On my data centre at least, I have had a roulette bonus for playing a healer once. In six months. And I very rarely do roulettes on anything but healer. Possibly this is different on your data centre, but it appears that in Europe we don't have a lack of healers

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

This is funny. This has been the MO that the fan base has praised since 2.0. Ignore certain issues, but talk in length about superficial design aspects.



Not sure how we can gauge if players are happy about healers. But they are mostly the job in need for bonus. That spot used to be exclusively tanks spot. That is superficial evidence though. I doubt SE is going to come out and say if healer numbers are down though. That would make their choices look bad. If healer numbers were good or better since expansion wouldn't they have gloated about it while dismissing complaints about some healer adjustment.

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A survey was done on Reddit for job satisfaction a little while back and it came back the SCH, AST and MNK were the three least satisfied jobs and overwhelmingly so. Whilst it is older data now and conducted in only 1 community, I think it is currently the best statistical data we have. If SE were not so averse to running surveys, they could conduct one themselves and not only get an idea of how people feel about healers, but a well designed survey could get quantifiable feedback in how people want healers to be improved, whether specific healers or healers overall. I think it'd be a more transparent way of approaching it. Nowt wrong with accepting that healer adjustments are hard and is a hard one to know what the community wants especially given people tend to only tell you what they want when they're unhappy with what they've got. A well written survey can give you a lot of useful information.

I personally like the old card system better because the decision making behind “play with the cards you’re dealt with” was what kept me engaged with the job. I understand why they had to change it and I think it’s a good change, but the way they implemented it is pretty bad.

Between the three healers, AST’s casts per minute is significantly higher than WHM and SCH, and almost comparable to a DPS role. As a controller player, having to constantly shift between party members with the soft targeting feature to play cards puts a number on my hands. Would be easier for Keyboard and Mouse users since its much easier to target people with that setup. Recently had to swap over to SCH because I couldn’t physically keep doing Alexander Ultimate with the amount of button pressing required. It was much slower and methodical with the old card system.

On one hand I’d like to use macros to make the process easier so I could keep playing a job I like aesthetically and have fun on, but on the other hand, I get chastised for even thinking about using macros for cards because it isn’t optimal. But eh, what can you do? :v

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Originally Posted by Cetek14

About GNB sound effects - in 5.0 it was basically gunblade, slicing, some mechanical clicking, pulling the trigger. It was fine. Then for no reason it was changed to something resembling a club, all slicing removed, trigger sounds removed.
It's a huge downgrade and definitely majority wants them changed or even reverted, but for no reason devs refuse. I'm still voicing my opinion because for me these new sounds are so awful that it's like one big april fools joke. You constantly hear these loud thumps but your character wields a blade. Extremely annoying.
Remember to send them in-game suggestion via support desk menu if you also feel like blade shouldn't sound like a club.

You can find 5.0 and 5.01 comparison on Twitter.

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Excuse me, but which majority? Was there an official poll in the game with later announced results of this poll? I suppose I somehow managed to miss it then, because I don't remember any pop-up announcements with request to write an opinion about sounds for the job in these 6 months since ShB release. A lot of players don't even use forums, twitter, reddit and any other medias (and there isn't even any guarantee that those users from other medias aren't the same people from forum), they just play silently, using in-game chat at max.
I love these forums. People here at first tell "forum isn't a majority" and "don't speak for everyone" but later suddenly "majority wants" when it applies to their personal opinion. Amazing.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Because that means overhauling the character creation system, and something something PS3 limitations small indie company I dunno pick your meme.

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Well overhauling stuff is part of their job isnt it? You want money you earn it by doing something.

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Originally Posted by Halivel

I love these forums. People here at first tell "forum isn't a majority" and "don't speak for everyone" but later suddenly "majority wants" when it applies to their personal opinion. Amazing.

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Every mixed pool of players - e.g. the forums or reddit that is not funneled into several topics such as "Healer forums" where you'd get different views on those - is still a small albeit valid sample. Also, she forgot to mention probably that it was about the people she talkted too or her observations. But as soon as you explain where your expierence (and thus opinions) come from, the generation Facebook cries because they can't process a bit more background and then bark "nubudy carezz" in your face. So until then, people do not do get into detail and neither want to put 500 disclaimers, so you gotta add them on the fly while reading. It's called "reading between lines" or just "common sense" then. She was not saying the majority of what. Her friends, the overal gamer population or the cats in the shelter?