Red Mage is top tier - [job effectiveness = player skill]

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

And yet, just like everyone else in this thread I am not seeing much difference at all in actual single target damage between SMN and RDM.

All of things I have brought up at this point are rational explanations for why the data is not matching reality.

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Even in a perfect vacuum dummy environment, red mage doesn't have the dps to match summoner, and needs embolden on everyone else to even get close, your explinations just show you don't know how the game or statistics works

i see... like „everyone else“... kk ^^‘
Haven’t seen a single post which supports your thesis... so who is this mr. everyone?... I only see one thing which doesn’t match reality: you : /

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

And yet, just like everyone else in this thread I am not seeing much difference at all in actual single target damage between SMN and RDM.

All of things I have brought up at this point are rational explanations for why the data is not matching reality.

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Dude thats some distorted view of reality you have there. Please re read your entire thread and realize you are nearly the only person saying RDM out dmges SMN.

The 'everyone' you speak of knows RDM is the weakest of the casters in any situation by far right now.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

And yet, just like everyone else in this thread I am not seeing much difference at all in actual single target damage between SMN and RDM.

All of things I have brought up at this point are rational explanations for why the data is not matching reality.

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lol .

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

And yet, just like everyone else in this thread I am not seeing much difference at all in actual single target damage between SMN and RDM.

All of things I have brought up at this point are rational explanations for why the data is not matching reality.

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"The evidence is wrong, my opinion is the real truth."

Can you actually prove the claim you are making, because discounting FFlogs is a pretty lofty thing to do with no substantial proof of your own to back up your claims.

The heavily used parse information shows that you are wrong, that is fact, and any further dispute simply labels you a troll who can't accept facts.

He couldn’t accept it back in HW so I doubt he can accept it now : /

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

That's great and all.

But after personal experience now with RDM.

I simply do not and have never spent the majority of my time DPSing in a Raid. I'm doing one of three things, my time is divided between DPSing, Healing, and Raising.

So I cannot put much stock in FFlogs when it comes to measuring DPS from a RDM.

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Well there's your problem right there.

If you're spending so much time raising that it becomes a massive detriment to your damage output, then you have some big problems.

Vercure has two uses, and ONLY two uses: 1) Priming a dualcast during downtime; 2) Absolute dire emergencies where not doing so means a wipe.

Otherwise, it is preferable that your healer, even a WHM with their 'omgpowerful Glare' cast literally any heal, than you give up a damage spell for a Vercure.

Look at it this way; ask your WHM--would they give up a Glare to cast a Cure I? The answer is probably no.

Then ask them 'Okay, but what if instead of casting a Cure I, you gave up that Glare to cast a Cure I with 77% the potency?'

They'll probably tell you to go screw themselves.

'Then stop asking me to do that ffs, you don't prioritize healer dps over DPS' DPS.'

And if your healer is not doing that, then you need to bench the healer.

Now, you're new to the job, and I can appreciate your enthusiasm. Please don't take this criticism as 'parseshaming', but rather, as a wakeup call to why you're kinda getting trounced in this thread.

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/mJ3Hh...pe=damage-done

First off: In the only fight with you we have a record of, you are getting -destroyed- by a summoner. Claiming that you and summoner are doing equal damage, when we can see a fight where you're doing 39% less damage than a summoner, shows that you aren't even getting your own personal anecdote correct.

Moreover, you are assuming your own experience to be an adqueate yardstick to how RDM should perform.

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/2H6tf...pe=damage-done

I'm not even going to claim this was good or adequate performance for a RDM on Levi Normal back in August, but rather, this is more about what you can expect to accomplish.

To put where you stand into perspective, this is a RDM performance from LAST EXPANSION:

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/D3TRG...pe=damage-done

Notice: You're only about 1k higher than that in your -current- expansion set up.

Now notice my casts:

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/2H6tf...casts&source=4

1 verraise (Though I will say it's okay to raise more as a RDM)

1 vercure, and if you notice, it's an overcure during Maelstrom, because I'm prepping a Verthunder or Veraero for when he comes back.

You should NOT be vomiting vercures, they are NOT that good.

The biggest advice I can give you though--you're not casting enough. You should keep that GCD rolling--85% uptime is not good on RDM. If you need to move, Enchanted Reprise when Swiftcast is off. Get used to using it, it's really good.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Well there's your problem right there.
Now, you're new to the job, and I can appreciate your enthusiasm. Please don't take this criticism as 'parseshaming', but rather, as a wakeup call to why you're kinda getting trounced in this thread.

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/mJ3Hh...pe=damage-done

First off: In the only fight with you we have a record of, you are getting -destroyed- by a summoner. Claiming that you and summoner are doing equal damage, when we can see a fight where you're doing 39% less damage than a summoner, shows that you aren't even getting your own personal anecdote correct.

Moreover, you are assuming your own experience to be an adqueate yardstick to how RDM should perform.

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Not a problem,
But keep in mind that was my first and only time in that fight after unlocking it. I also died a couple of times in that fight for that reason.

So again we get back to FF Logs not being particularly accurate. For the record also I have not been back in that fight since then.

So... now we get back to... how many MORE Red Mages other than me have had their logs submitted up there and how much more inaccuracy is there in those.

How much of this "average" is for real, that you thought was for real?

EDIT: As a good example here... you just lectured me on a bunch of things that didn't even apply.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

EDIT: As a good example here... you just lectured me on a bunch of things that didn't even apply.

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No, my dude, you're in denial.

You're trying to use your skill in a job you're not even mid-tier at yet and another job you're not mid-tier at yet and trying to say you've got some sort of insight into the balance of either job played in a serious content.

And you've never done serious content with either; you've based your synopsis on dungeons and on 24mans, and normals. Simply put, no, you dont have the knowledge to make the claims you do.

And when you're telling rdms, who have been maining it for years longer than you've been playing it, that rdm's damage loss is to things that good rdm players don't actually do; well, that's why you're getting pushback.

You are the pupil; you are not the master.

Silverquick, this appears to be a case of "I reject your reality and substitute my own." You have been shown, multiple times, using actual data we have, that red mage is unfairly falling behind in the top parses, the parses in which the game should be balanced around, and all you've done is shrug your shoulders and say "but I don't see it." To which I say, of course you haven't seen it. In the level you play the game, the numbers don't really matter, so of course yiu're going to fall back to anecdotes to fuel your argument. But the thing is, because the numbers don't matter on the level of content you're playing at, it also means that the game ism't really balanced around that, meaning your anecdotes about that one Normal raid where you rezzed the healers like a badass, mean diddly when it comes to the reality of the game. And the reality is that red mage is too far behind competitively either becauee of SMN's overbuff or unfair utility tax.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

No, my dude, you're in denial.

You're trying to use your skill in a job you're not even mid-tier at yet and another job you're not mid-tier at yet and trying to say you've got some sort of insight into the balance of either job played in a serious content.

And you've never done serious content with either; you've based your synopsis on dungeons and on 24mans, and normals. Simply put, no, you dont have the knowledge to make the claims you do.

And when you're telling rdms, who have been maining it for years longer than you've been playing it, that rdm's damage loss is to things that good rdm players don't actually do; well, that's why you're getting pushback.

You are the pupil; you are not the master.

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Yo this post absolutely smashed it lmao.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Well, RDM was called out as getting some changes next major patch in the Live Letter, with details coming in the next LL.

Granted this could be like when they said they were going to buff Ninja and it got, like, 20 potency per combo or something hilarious. But hey, at least there's acknowledgment.

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If this is about that first tuning patch we had before the rework, that actually made a massive difference Ninja damage was absolutely disgusting after that patch.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

No, my dude, you're in denial.

You're trying to use your skill in a job you're not even mid-tier at yet and another job you're not mid-tier at yet and trying to say you've got some sort of insight into the balance of either job played in a serious content.

And you've never done serious content with either; you've based your synopsis on dungeons and on 24mans, and normals. Simply put, no, you dont have the knowledge to make the claims you do.

You are the pupil; you are not the master.

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thx in advance.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Silverquick, this appears to be a case of "I reject your reality and substitute my own." You have been shown, multiple times, using actual data we have, that red mage is unfairly falling behind in the top parses, the parses in which the game should be balanced around, and all you've done is shrug your shoulders and say "but I don't see it." To which I say, of course you haven't seen it. In the level you play the game, the numbers don't really matter, so of course yiu're going to fall back to anecdotes to fuel your argument. But the thing is, because the numbers don't matter on the level of content you're playing at, it also means that the game ism't really balanced around that, meaning your anecdotes about that one Normal raid where you rezzed the healers like a badass, mean diddly when it comes to the reality of the game. And the reality is that red mage is too far behind competitively either becauee of SMN's overbuff or unfair utility tax.

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What denial is that?

I just showed you that the very log from FF Logs that Gruntler presented did not accurately reflect DPS capability. Exactly as I stated in the very beginning of the thread.

You just compared a log... where one player was new to the instance and died twice (during that period noing no DPS)... and then said Oh look the SMN smashed RDM damage.

Of course a SMN is going to come out that far ahead when the one player is a totally new to an Instance and dies twice in that instance doing no DPS for that period of time.

You just made my point for me.

You took this as gospel when it did not show you reality.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

To be fair, that Gust Blade potency buff put it ahead of Dragoon in most Savage fights at the time, once top-tier players had gotten used to bringing NIN again. For low-ping players, its actual output changed very little between that "hilarious" little buff and the whole massive rework thereafter.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

If this is about that first tuning patch we had before the rework, that actually made a massive difference Ninja damage was absolutely disgusting after that patch.

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Not to derail the thread, but no another 50 potency (had to look it up) to Gust Slash wasn't going to buff Ninja by the ~10% it was behind at the time. If you think that it was just every savage group who's been playing with a Ninja for years and years suddenly not knowing how to do so, then I don't even know what to say.
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...c8cee52472b81a

This patch is the one you guys are probably thinking of, when they buffed the crap out of Ninja abilities. Note that there's more than just a buff to Gust Slash here.
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...1db7c6162503b9

Back on topic though, no but Red Mage does need some buffs. It could also stand to have something new compared to Stormblood, but that's a whole different topic.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

What denial is that?

I just showed you that the very log from FF Logs that Gruntler presented did not accurately reflect DPS capability. Exactly as I stated in the very beginning of the thread.

You just compared a log... where one player was new to the instance and died twice (during that period noing no DPS)... and then said Oh look the SMN smashed RDM damage.

Of course a SMN is going to come out that far ahead when the one player is a totally new to an Instance and dies twice in that instance doing no DPS for that period of time.

You just made my point for me.

You took this as gospel when it did not show you reality.

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Actually you are just a stubborn naiv kid which still has to learn *a lot* not just ingame but in life as well... : /
A tough and long way as long as u stay in your selfmade bubble...

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Originally Posted by Neela

Actually you are just a stubborn naiv kid which still has to learn *a lot* not just ingame but in life as well... : /
A tough and long way as long as u stay in your selfmade bubble...

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No its even worse than what I said.

Because if what Gunther says is true... then this is the only log ever submitted from me. So now I have even MORE reason to believe this happens more than was previously stated.

Out of all the instances I've ever done, the ONLY log from RDM that made it up to FF Logs was my very first fight in Leviathon in Eden where was was unfamiliar with it and died twice during that fight so doesn't even reflect normal DPS.

I have even more reason now to doubt the FF Logs database and what it contains.

But you have been trying to argue about parses from normal duties as opposed to the higher dmg percentiles which come from Savage or EX fights. One should always gauge dmg at the higher levels of play.
I am going to guess you just recently got Red and perhaps smn as well to 80 just recently based on gear. Nothing against you for that however before trying to make comments run EX fights and so on before and build up fight experience
with both jobs and then see if you can tell a difference? Even more Eden normal runs if you have not ran them much as well.
You were commenting on how you could hardly see the difference between both jobs when you were bellow 80 (in earlier posts) and those that were already at 80 were trying to tell you otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

What denial is that?

I just showed you that the very log from FF Logs that Gruntler presented did not accurately reflect DPS capability. Exactly as I stated in the very beginning of the thread.

You just compared a log... where one player was new to the instance and died twice (during that period noing no DPS)... and then said Oh look the SMN smashed RDM damage.

Of course a SMN is going to come out that far ahead when the one player is a totally new to an Instance and dies twice in that instance doing no DPS for that period of time.

You just made my point for me.

You took this as gospel when it did not show you reality.

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I...wow. okay. First off, your level of delusion is flooring. You're the one hung up on one log. The rest of us are looking at the entire scope of FF Logs and determining that the 1k DPS difference between the median damage of SMN and RDM is too big for players to not want to bring RDM, especially when TEA has some tight DPS checks. Even if we check the highest parses, we see just under 1k difference. We even acknowledged that the log was suboptimal not indicative of regular RDM play, which shouldn't have any Verraises and should have maybe 1 Vercure for downtime Dualcast preparation, if that.

Rather than taking a broad look at the overall status of the job, you are holding up this example that doesn't even prove your point and saying "See? I proved you wrong!" You are actively denying reality because you want to push this narrative of...what, Red Mage is fine? Because it's not. It's a lot of fun for me personally, but it is absolutely not in a good spot.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

I have even more reason now to doubt the FF Logs database and what it contains.

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And this will be the reason why u will ever live in that bubble of "personal feelings" and "own experiences" in "data" which are worth nothing but subjectivity. you dont even want to learn or to improve. you just want to have the last word.... and trust me IF you got the last word, its not cause you are right - its cause people gave up and lost hope in human kind... - all these RDMs in here could inspire you but your ego is just to big to realize it. Instead you make your name a joke for everyone else who love to play caster : /

Just why?...

edit:

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Yeah I actually do forsee the single target getting reduced a little. While I'm not going to give the specific tactics, you can pull off a surprising amount of single target DPS as RDM now if you know how to do it.

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cmn pls Silver... pls just stop talking... you dont know a shit. you just got destroyed in this thread... and all u do is move into another continuing to spread your BS?... *geeze*

...its just hopeless...

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

I...wow. okay. First off, your level of delusion is flooring. You're the one hung up on one log. The rest of us are looking at the entire scope of FF Logs and determining that the 1k DPS difference between the median damage of SMN and RDM is too big for players to not want to bring RDM, especially when TEA has some tight DPS checks..

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Yeah but what is your "entire scope" made of?

I am seriously questioning that at this point and I have good reason to.

I just illustrated why.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

No its even worse than what I said.

Because if what Gunther says is true... then this is the only log ever submitted from me. So now I have even MORE reason to believe this happens more than was previously stated.

Out of all the instances I've ever done, the ONLY log from RDM that made it up to FF Logs was my very first fight in Leviathon in Eden where was was unfamiliar with it and died twice during that fight so doesn't even reflect normal DPS.

I have even more reason now to doubt the FF Logs database and what it contains.

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What about copied factory? 2 kills in the past week, both grey 9s. Do you have any idea how badly I need to play to show up on someone's live log as grey on an RDM?
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/h4AaZ...pe=damage-done
I died on this fight and I was still 89 percentile. Granted my RDM has much better gear than you, but not enough for there to be that big of a difference to the point you're dealing basically Heavensward damage, if that. Again no-one is out to embarass you, or specifically make you feel like you're a hopeless player, but it's incredibly frustrating trying to discuss balance with someone who at present, clearly has no idea how to play the job in the first place and lacks experience. That's all people have been trying to tell you from the start, but you don't get it and still think you're good when there's no clear evidence you know how to play this class, and that's why people are poking harder. And I don't even care how good someone is at this game when discussing balance, providing they at least put some data behind their argument. You don't provide any, and the best anyone is able to get for you in pretty much the only measurable metrics possible - isn't very good.

It’s getting worse and worser for you Silver... : /

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Originally Posted by Neela

It’s getting worse and worser for you Silver... : /

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Neela, that doesn't work with me,

You should know better by now.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

What about copied factory? 2 kills in the past week, both grey 9s. Do you have any idea how badly I need to play to show up on someone's live log as grey on an RDM?
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/h4AaZ...pe=damage-done
I died on this fight and I was still 89 percentile. .

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That's great and all... but do you realize they took my first time in Leviathan where I died twice and had never been in the Eden raid before after just unlocking it and had no idea of what to expect... AND in base Weathered RDM armor...

So it was not reflecting anything in real RDM DPS...

They are combining that kind of thing in with your numbers to get an "average". Yours are actual real numbers and likely a fair test with top level gear.

(PS: Did you link the wrong thing? I wasn't seeing what you were getting in your link, you did pretty spectacular there)

Yeah I know... I know that u won’t change, that u always gonna be smarter than everybody else, with more and better insights than a whole community out of thousand theory crafter, dataminer, balance mentors and motivated player, that u alone see the bigger picture, that people trust and wait for your prayers to be thankful for enlightenment and best of all I know...

...you really believe all this things for real. : /

Edit: and now I know u actually have absolute no clue how parses and statistics work. lol

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Yeah but what is your "entire scope" made of?

I am seriously questioning that at this point and I have good reason to.

I just illustrated why.

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What is your...are you for real? My "entire scope" is the overall collection of parses made since the beginning of the expansion by every player who has contributed, you moron. You cannot be an actually living, breathing human. You are the living embodiment of bad faith argumentation and I honestly feel dumber for actually trying to argue with you.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

That's great and all... but do you realize they took my first time in Leviathan

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Let's be clear about what I did, in fact do.

I took the only evidence I could for you, because there's literally nothing else there. I took the only data that exists for you, specifically.

I don't have data on FFlogs for myself for gear equivalent to that, because that data was purged, so I cannot provide you data for how I was doing in that gear set; further when that fight came out I had already cleared Titania and Innocence EX and was using that gear; so there never was a point where I was doing E3N in that gear in order to show my performance. However, I did link data from previous expansion, showing that your output was not that much higher than last expansion numbers.

I assure you, however, your performance, even with one death, is not showing your job in a competitive light. I can see play errors in your opener, without doing any sort of comprehensive analysis tool like xivanalysis. No use of Corps-a-Corps or Displacement before Manafication? A 7 second delay between Enchanted Redoublement, and using Embolden on your Verholy? Spending an average between casts that's more than 3 seconds despite having a 2.38ish gcd?

These sorts of errors are punishing on RDM and even more punishing on SMN, and if this is your playstyle, RDM is going to appear to be doing better than SMN. And none of these errors are explained by death, or gear. These are all play errors, opportunities for you to work on.

Now, that aside, I have a serious question; what do you -think- good single target dps performance looks like? What sort of number do you expect? Do you think 7k is good? 8k? 9k? I'd like to know where you think RDM should be.

So first, commentary on the off topic as well as context for my actual post:

While there is definitely a lot of character attacking, and particularly childish and goading posts purely existing to be a dick instead of actual discussion, if you ignore that particular person, there are valid points here.

For context, I also only have one parse on FFlogs. Coincidentally, it's also from eden, just Eden Titan, and it was probably actually the worst run I've ever done of it. I did a stupid and ran into the landslide part that pushed me off, and then ended up dying to normally inconsequential hits later thanks to weakness after being raised. Not that I'm exactly super great at the fight given I think I had done my first run the week before, and have been particularly busy with the holidays so my play time is fractured and I'm tired, but it was still a terrible performance. So, I can totally relate to my literal only parse being a sucky representation of how I normally play. I'm by no means an optimized RDM. However, the key here is that I recognize how I'm not optimized.

So, that being said, there's a logic behind people using parses. First, Silver, you and I may not parse, but there are lots of players that do. There are players all across the skill spectrum that do. I've even considered doing it myself, despite how bad my parses would be, just to be able to evaluate myself and use it to see where I could improve after the fight when I have time to stop and analyze. The key thing to remember here is that of those people that do, there are a large portion that do it consistently. Among the people who parse consistently are a significant portion of the higher-performing players.

This matters because while most people don't play at the "95th percentile", these are the people who have "mastered" the job the most. Worth noting is that they're also running with others who know their jobs and the fight, so their uptime is naturally higher, as opposed to say, the first week runners of The Grand Cosmos who you had to verraise because who cares about mechanics so there isn't any furniture left, etc. This also means, however, that we're seeing optimal play, because while RDM does come with utility tools, RDM is most useful to a fight when they don't have to use them. Ironic, yes, since we get heavy damage penalties because of it, but that's how the game's fight mechanics work right now.

Anyway, this means that the high level parses come from consistent players who also consistently play at a much more efficient level than you or I. What this means is that we can see roughly where the "ideal Red Mage" performance is. Likewise, we can also see "ideal" play from other classes. What we are seeing, overall, is that people playing "equally well" on both RDM and SMN will end up doing more damage, significantly so, as SMN. Given that both classes carry similar utility (and SMN can passively damage while raising/moving via DoTs and such on top of it), we theoretically should see similar DPS when looking at the highest levels of performance.

We don't. And that's basically the point.

Any singular statistic can be an anomaly. Your parse was your first Eden Leviathan fight. My parse was my worst run of Eden Titan, even if most of mine are pretty bad (I totally need to do it more than once a week to get better). However, when you start to look at the entire data pool, especially from consistent parsers as opposed to people like us caught up in a random parse, you get more reliable and normalized data. Particularly, the more efficient players are more reliable, since they take it more seriously and do it more often. It is their data that people point to for top level play and balance issues, and that particular data is the most reliable.

Sure, RDM has a decent performance with a low skill floor, but it can perform much better if your skill level goes up. However, the ceiling is still significantly lower than the comparison class (SMN) once you get to the best of the best. That's the issue people are pointing out.

I’ll try to keep this brief but Difficulty is a mixed bag when discussing a jobs viability because of consistency.

If RDM should be weaker than its competitors because it’s skill floor is lower. Does this information transfer properly to other roles. Is the easiest melee the worst one, what about healers, and ranged. If they are, then by how much are they and by how much does it matter.

RDM is much weaker than SMN/BLM because it’s easier, but AST is only marginally better than WHM and SCH when it’s unquestionably more difficult. Do you see how inconsistent that is?

Ideally, RDM would only barely be worst than SMN and BLM if we were following a consistent rule for balancing difficulty as WHM and SCH while not the most potent combination is still place comfortably to AST comps. Even the physical ranged are close enough that the easiest one (DNC) has moments where it’s better than BRD and MCH however, RDM at no point is ever truly better than SMN and to a lesser extent BLM. This is why balancing around job difficulty isnt a good idea. Thresholds matter in balance where as saying, RDM is easier than SMN so it should be worse isn’t saying anything about “How much weaker” it should be

99th percentile Eden for all bosses
Astrologian 8,583.23
White Mage 8,298.85
Scholar 8,089.35

The difference from the Highest (and arguably hardest) from the lowest (not even the easiest) is 493.88

Same thing for Casters

Summoner 15,140.33
Black Mage 14,984.43
Red Mage 14,216.49

The difference from the Highest(Debatable the most difficult) from the lowest is 923.84

So yeah, if we're going to balance based off difficulty then we need to be consistent. Either the easiest healer drops by 700 rdps or RDM should probably jump up by 600 rdps
clearly balancing isn't this simple but i felt that if we're going to entertain difficulty as a metric for balancing, we need to be consistent across all roles

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

That's great and all... but do you realize they took my first time in Leviathan where I died twice and had never been in the Eden raid before after just unlocking it and had no idea of what to expect... AND in base Weathered RDM armor...

So it was not reflecting anything in real RDM DPS...

They are combining that kind of thing in with your numbers to get an "average". Yours are actual real numbers and likely a fair test with top level gear.

(PS: Did you link the wrong thing? I wasn't seeing what you were getting in your link, you did pretty spectacular there)

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That's the point though - even now; you're still massively undergeared and there is nothing to suggest you have any good experience on this job. The 2nd Eden kill is from yesterday. How can you claim the job is fine when you barely even know what you're doing on it.

And no, it's not top level gear, just regular tome, crafted and yorha gear, something anyone could get pretty easily.

The only difference between my log and yours is individual performance. They're both calculated the exact same way. The link was intentional. It's to show how far you are behind the curve to produce so little.

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

That's the point though - even now; you're still massively undergeared and there is nothing to suggest you have any good experience on this job. The 2nd Eden kill is from yesterday. How can you claim the job is fine when you barely even know what you're doing on it.

And no, it's not top level gear, just regular tome, crafted and yorha gear, something anyone could get pretty easily.
The only difference between my log and yours is individual performance. They're both calculated the exact same way. The link was intentional. It's to show how far you are behind the curve to produce so little.

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You are mistaking something here.
Never in this thread did I say I was somehow superior to anyone. The person who keeps claiming that is the very individual the poster above talked about, who was acting "childish and goading".

What started this, was me saying simply... yeah I'm not seeing too much difference between RDM and SMN single target damage either, agreeing with the poster above me.

Magically and mystically that turned into me supposedly claiming I was uber or something.
Someone else jumped in and said... But FF Logs says.... etc... .

I do believe at that point I said this...

That's great and all.
But after personal experience now with RDM.
I simply do not and have never spent the majority of my time DPSing in a Raid. I'm doing one of three things, my time is divided between DPSing, Healing, and Raising.
So I cannot put much stock in FFlogs when it comes to measuring DPS from a RDM.

Go ahead and follow that specific conversation, its completely different from what you seem to believe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

You are mistaking something here.
Never in this thread did I say I was somehow superior to anyone. The person who keeps claiming that is the very individual the poster above talked about, who was acting "childish and goading".

What started this, was me saying simply... yeah I'm not seeing too much difference between RDM and SMN single target damage either, agreeing with the poster above me.

Magically and mystically that turned into me supposedly claiming I was uber or something.
Someone else jumped in and said... But FF Logs says.... etc... .

I do believe at that point I said this...

That's great and all.
But after personal experience now with RDM.
I simply do not and have never spent the majority of my time DPSing in a Raid. I'm doing one of three things, my time is divided between DPSing, Healing, and Raising.
So I cannot put much stock in FFlogs when it comes to measuring DPS from a RDM.

Go ahead and follow that specific conversation, its completely different from what you seem to believe.

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There is a huge contradiction in your logic. You state that you can't trust Fflogs statistics on the single target comparison between RDM and SMN do to your own experiences (completely ignoring player skill) however, You're actually just putting too much stock in your own experience. You seem to believe that because YOU spend time playing rdm sub optimally and in dire DF situations, that is the norm for the job when thats absolutely ludicrous and there are thousands of RDMs that don't spend runs healing, and raising regardless of what you think. This is percisely why we don't balance off of personal feelings and experiences because that information is 100% skewed to the person making the claim, where as a site like fflogs takes the raw data and distributes it for constructive and competitive purposes. Thus far more suitable and, credible for job balance discussions

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

There is a huge contradiction in your logic. You state that you can't trust Fflogs statistics on the single target comparison between RDM and SMN do to your own experiences (completely ignoring player skill) however,

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Would you like me to go back and repost the entire conversation string for you?

So... lets add some more of what I said after that... that does not include that certain person mentioned who was being "childish and goading".

ReiMakoto: If you're spending time doing that your team is really bad and they're gimping your damage, and is not an attitude to take to savage
Silverquick: Fair enough, but also consider that you were talking about an "average" from FF Logs... so you have to account for the fact a lot of Red Mage DPS being submitted probably also includes a lot of RDMs who have to do exactly what I said.

ReiMakoto: Even at the top end not the average red mage is behind
Silverquick: What you would have to do to get an accurate average of RDMs DPS would be to remove all samples of RDMs who use a heal or Res...
Then take the average of those specifically to get an accurate DPS number from RDM. And the pool is a little too small for that.

We can keep going if you like...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Would you like me to go back and repost the entire conversation string for you?

So... lets add some more of what I said after that... that does not include that certain person mentioned who was being "childish and goading".

ReiMakoto: If you're spending time doing that your team is really bad and they're gimping your damage, and is not an attitude to take to savage
Silverquick: Fair enough, but also consider that you were talking about an "average" from FF Logs... so you have to account for the fact a lot of Red Mage DPS being submitted probably also includes a lot of RDMs who have to do exactly what I said.

ReiMakoto: Even at the top end not the average red mage is behind
Silverquick: What you would have to do to get an accurate average of RDMs DPS would be to remove all samples of RDMs who use a heal or Res...
Then take the average of those specifically to get an accurate DPS number from RDM. And the pool is a little too small for that.



We can keep going if you like...

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Sure dude but this doesn't make any sense, If you take a top end RDM parse and it's optimized, has no healing (besides dualcast prepping for added dps) or raising. then YOU"RE getting the accurate representation of RDMs dps in an optimized setting. Compare this to a SMN/BLM parse, you're still seeing a steep difference between them. There are many parses uploaded for RDM that aren't healing or raising so i fail to see why you believe that the RDM data is skewed because of healing and verraise.

When you compare a optimized no death RDM parse to a optimized no death SMN parse. You'll find the problem is that it's very difficult to justify rdm and thats the topic of all these RDM post that you misguidedly frequent with your ill-informed prattle.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...74/unknown.png

This post right here is your contradictory statement where you flat out say, you won't value fflogs statistics and averages because of your own experience

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Sure dude but this doesn't make any sense, If you take a top end RDM parse and it's optimized, has no healing (besides dualcast prepping for added dps) or raising. then YOU"RE getting the accurate representation of RDMs dps in an optimized setting.

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Alright since you requested I'll keep posting the conversation... again removing the individual that was being "childish and goading"
And More of the conversation after that...

LambdafishIf you are healing and rezzing as a RDM, you aren't even going to get a blue parse, let alone top parse, or even average. The pool is pretty big at 3000 parses over the past two weeks, which if you think that's too small, then it would actually lean away from your argument as those who would be healing and rezzing probably aren't using FFlogs.
The content is old, people have been farming it for months, people aren't dying to an extent that a RDM needs to help.
SilverquickThat's actually not really true,
We are talking a very miniscule difference in damage here... that means one or two cures/verraise is going to drop your damage by about that percentage, its that small.
So you would have to go through all those logs, remove any that used a vercure or verrraise, and take only those that did pure DPS as an average.
So of your average of parces... how many are after the buffs of 5.1? Then how many of those never used a Vercure or Verraise? Its going to be a very small pool that's left.

Still missing any of the claimed "Silverquick thinks he's uber" talk here...

In fact every one of these has been an honest conversation up to this point and legitimate questions and points I'd been making.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Yeah I actually do forsee the single target getting reduced a little. While I'm not going to give the specific tactics, you can pull off a surprising amount of single target DPS as RDM now if you know how to do it.

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Just to be clear--this is a hard claim. This is an attempt to present a conclusion, then what one perceives to be the facts that lead to that conclusion.

The issue, Silverquick, is that your claim is not supported. The evidence we have does not support this claim, and thus the onus is on you to support this claim if you want your conclusion to be taken with anything more than a grain of salt.

The only evidence we could use for your claim, would be your logs; we literally have no other way of checking this thing that you said. That's why your performance matters. When you claim that 'Red Mage can do a surprising amount of dps' we want to see evidence of that claim; both as it contradicts our own evidence, but also, if there's a way to make RDM perform better than we expect we sincerely would like to do it!

So, what we're doing, patiently, is waiting for you to advance this conversation. What is 'surprising' dps to you? What measure do you consider to be that 'surprising' amount, in your own words?

There's a reason why I'm asking you to quantify this--I want to see what you think 'RDM performing well' looks like, because to use one log that puts you unfavorably is not fair to you, and it is not putting your position in the most favorable light.

However, putting your position in its most favorably light is your job, not ours. It's up to you to advance this conversation, and at this point, that means you're going to have to provide evidence--a rotation, a declaration of what 'good dps is'.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

I simply do not and have never spent the majority of my time DPSing in a Raid. I'm doing one of three things, my time is divided between DPSing, Healing, and Raising.

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Exactly, so you're not playing RDM at the level relative to my OP in the first place, so why are you even here? Serious question. One of your first comments was "I compete with Summoners" when you clearly do not - in fact you don't even compete with Healers, in a static anyone would be better off bringing a third healer than you - to do the exact same job you're currently doing which the job is not designed to do at the extent you've been doing it; and they'd contribute more RDPS in the process too. You play the job at a less than casual level, like we're talking borderline freestyle Samurai level, you have bad gear, your melds are wrong and you're honestly wondering why your claims are generally seen as unsubstantiated. This is with us taking external logs entirely out of the equation to make the discussion as "fair" and as "inclusive" to you as possible.

check.mate

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

SilverquickThat's actually not really true,
We are talking a very miniscule difference in damage here... that means one or two cures/verraise is going to drop your damage by about that percentage, its that small.
So you would have to go through all those logs, remove any that used a vercure or verrraise, and take only those that did pure DPS as an average.
So of your average of parces... how many are after the buffs of 5.1? Then how many of those never used a Vercure or Verraise? Its going to be a very small pool that's left.

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People aren't arguing about your supposed claims of being uber. They're pointing out the flaw in your logic.

You keep going back to this idea RDMs have to do xyz, which simply isn't true in an optimized setting. Not only that but you're significantly underestimating how much of a loss using Vercure and Verraise are. Regardless, you can set the percentage parameters on FFlogs to 95%. This will only include the best players on each respective job. You'll see Red Mage lags behind Summoner by a massive margin. Saying you don't put stock into this is dismissing basic math.

In other words, you're wrong.

I applaud the patience of everyone trying to explain things to silverquick, but i think it's time to let go lol. He doesn't understand a thing you guys are saying, and is just harping on people attacking him.