Paladin Updates

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Originally Posted by Treach

Antagonize, Sentinel, Provoke, Flash and using Vengeance before first swing on you grabs more.

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and lets not forget collusion when someone drops a bomb on the mob.

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Originally Posted by Treach

Antagonize, Sentinel, Provoke, Flash and using Vengeance before first swing on you grabs more.

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Vengeance would return rather low damage to the enemy until your initial buffs wore off, especially stoneskin.

Just think about Antagonize, Sentinel, and Vengeance... Massive hate for all skills plus Vengeancing Chimera for 300dmg each time it swings at you? ~1k DMG just from vengeance and that's without voke/flash

From what I was seeing having sentinel up didn't hurt the returned dmg of vengeance, maybe they'll patch that.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

War and Pld don't have to fight to tank, Warrior can AoE tank, Pld can single target tank and there is no need for hostility. L2Share! This shouldn't keep people from trying to tank piles on Pld, nor keep them from tankin singles on War. Play what you like, even if people feel the other might be better in whatever situation you find yourself in.

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Exactly, play what you want, just don't "intentionally" post false biased information to confuse or mislead other players.

Actually vengeance is probably bugged lol, does full return damage on parry, stoneskin and sentinel.

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Originally Posted by Ambuter

Just think about Antagonize, Sentinel, and Vengeance... Massive hate for all skills plus Vengeancing Chimera for 300dmg each time it swings at you? ~1k DMG just from vengeance and that's without voke/flash

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Are we factoring in Cure/Cura/Holy Succors/Blocks/other shizz into this enmity pissing contest? Just asking. Cuz I've been reading rather simple trains of thought, that fail to take into account all the variables.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

From what I was seeing having sentinel up didn't hurt the returned dmg of vengeance, maybe they'll patch that.

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I've noticed this as well. Even with Sent/Rampart up Vengeance dmg seems pretty constant.

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Originally Posted by Firon

yeah for real lol when Fist of wind is up on mnk only time i evade is with feather foot still lol

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Fists of Wind doesn't increase evasion, it increases movement speed and reduces weaponskill recast times.

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Originally Posted by Akumu

It grabs so much hate when you have only 1 mob to worry about. Multiple mobs it doesn't always work out as it would seem on paper. WAR strength plus their abilities allow them to hold mobs like a beast. A PLD has to stay on edge to maintain his threat.

If you think a PLD is on par with a WAR in HATE control you must be in denial. I love my PLD but I'm not going to pretend like a WAR will not do better than me on the battlefield.

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Def not in denial I played with a few wars today i can say this Decent pld is on par with a good war for single target tanking, Wars are not built to be the best tanks but they do really well if the players knows what they are doing. I ran into a lot of bad war tanks today doing ifrit cause them holding hate vs 1 mob is on par with a decent pld.

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Originally Posted by Masamune1004

Fists of Wind doesn't increase evasion, it increases movement speed and reduces weaponskill recast times.

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Lol i never noticed i just went by the original skill list they posted from a few months back.

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Originally Posted by Treach

Exactly, play what you want, just don't "intentionally" post false biased information to confuse or mislead other players.

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Play what you want is great until you notice no matter how skilled you are with that job another is better. I'm not saying WAR should be nerfed but PLD is behind it in almost every regard.

If PLD is a single target tank than it should be better than WAR at that, not worst or equal.

PLD needs more overall mitigation.

The biggest problem is that MRD's HP far outperforms a PLD's defense. PLD should have MUCH higher damage mitigation on everything. If a move takes a Marauder's HP down to 30% of his max, then the same move should not take a PLD below 35% of his max. The entire point of PLDs is to have a solid tank who sacrifices damage output for damage mitigation. As it is now, Marauders will still outperform PLDs because there's no change in PLD's base mitigations so stuff like Glower will be much more dangerous to a PLD than it will be to a MRD. MRD's tank better than a class whose only purpose is to be a tank. MRD's extra damage output is just icing on the cake making PLD seem even less useful.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Def not in denial I played with a few wars today i can say this Decent pld is on par with a good war for single target tanking, Wars are not built to be the best tanks but they do really well if the players knows what they are doing. I ran into a lot of bad war tanks today doing ifrit cause them holding hate vs 1 mob is on par with a decent pld.

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You don't judge a job based on the players, you judge them against each other and don't count skill factor into it.

For instant threat at the start of a fight warrior wins, for sustained threat warrior wins with dps and collusion and the same skills a PLD would use not counting cures that you can't get enmity with from over curing anymore, if you want to risk dying just so you can get full cure enmity be my guest cause it won't bother me if you die at all.

Disclaimer, this is not warrior fanboy opinions. I personally do not care which tank is currently best, I'll play whichever one it is.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Def not in denial I played with a few wars today i can say this Decent pld is on par with a good war for single target tanking, Wars are not built to be the best tanks but they do really well if the players knows what they are doing. I ran into a lot of bad war tanks today doing ifrit cause them holding hate vs 1 mob is on par with a decent pld.

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If a bad WAR tank can't tank 1 mob especially Ifrit than they are a lot worst than bad. They should probably just stop tanking all together.

Yes a PLD can hold a single target but a WAR can do the exact same thing and output more damage in the process.

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Originally Posted by Sol_Aureus

PLD needs more overall mitigation.

The biggest problem is that MRD's HP far outperforms a PLD's defense. PLD should have MUCH higher damage mitigation on everything. If a move takes a Marauder's HP down to 30% of his max, then the same move should not take a PLD below 35% of his max. The entire point of PLDs is to have a solid tank who sacrifices damage output for damage mitigation. As it is now, Marauders will still outperform PLDs because there's no change in PLD's base mitigations so stuff like Glower will be much more dangerous to a PLD than it will be to a MRD. MRD's tank better than a class whose only purpose is to be a tank. MRD's extra damage output is just icing on the cake making PLD seem even less useful.

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Get out of here with your logical logic!

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Originally Posted by Sol_Aureus

PLD needs more overall mitigation.

The biggest problem is that MRD's HP far outperforms a PLD's defense. PLD should have MUCH higher damage mitigation on everything. If a move takes a Marauder's HP down to 30% of his max, then the same move should not take a PLD below 35% of his max. The entire point of PLDs is to have a solid tank who sacrifices damage output for damage mitigation. As it is now, Marauders will still outperform PLDs because there's no change in PLD's base mitigations so stuff like Glower will be much more dangerous to a PLD than it will be to a MRD. MRD's tank better than a class whose only purpose is to be a tank. MRD's extra damage output is just icing on the cake making PLD seem even less useful.

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Yes, exactly. Why just have cake when you can eat it too?

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Originally Posted by Sol_Aureus

PLD needs more overall mitigation.

The biggest problem is that MRD's HP far outperforms a PLD's defense. PLD should have MUCH higher damage mitigation on everything. If a move takes a Marauder's HP down to 30% of his max, then the same move should not take a PLD below 35% of his max. The entire point of PLDs is to have a solid tank who sacrifices damage output for damage mitigation. As it is now, Marauders will still outperform PLDs because there's no change in PLD's base mitigations so stuff like Glower will be much more dangerous to a PLD than it will be to a MRD. MRD's tank better than a class whose only purpose is to be a tank. MRD's extra damage output is just icing on the cake making PLD seem even less useful.

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I agree with this since i don't main pld in this game but i do have it lvled does spirits within work like XI does same dmg to any mob no matter what if not they need to look into that.

Edit: or make Spirits with in like Atonement from xi damage it does is based on how much hate you have but cap the dmg @ like 700 dmg.

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Originally Posted by Sol_Aureus

PLD needs more overall mitigation.

The biggest problem is that MRD's HP far outperforms a PLD's defense. PLD should have MUCH higher damage mitigation on everything. If a move takes a Marauder's HP down to 30% of his max, then the same move should not take a PLD below 35% of his max. The entire point of PLDs is to have a solid tank who sacrifices damage output for damage mitigation. As it is now, Marauders will still outperform PLDs because there's no change in PLD's base mitigations so stuff like Glower will be much more dangerous to a PLD than it will be to a MRD. MRD's tank better than a class whose only purpose is to be a tank. MRD's extra damage output is just icing on the cake making PLD seem even less useful.

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This. 4th quote in a row!

Extra damage output is pointless if you have to run 2 whms vs. 1 whm. dropping a whm adds another DD job to the mix which by itself will outproduce the warrior tank in raw numbers (unless your second whm was nuking to make up the difference). Everything will be more and more situational as things are nailed down and i'm looking forward to it.

As Long as Speed Runs are a thing. War will most likely always beat PLD. Taking too much dmg is never an issue in any fight in this game. It's getting the entire parties dps as high as you can. PLD just can't compete in this area and never will.

Honestly, SE kind of put themselves into this situation by making speed runs in dungeons. If that wasn't the case, people wouldn't be as influenced to take Warrior over Paladin.

But honestly, just making us more magic defense friendly would do wonders. I went in originally thinking WAR would be better with physical damage and PLD having better magic defense. Between the two it is kind of the same and assuming you have a good healer with you, WAR will be the way to go.

This is why I don't like speed runs. It influences people to do whatever they can to make sure it goes as fast as possible. So what is the end result, ruling out those who can't perform as well in DPS. While this may happen even without timers, I think people would be better without.

What did people do in DH? Find best class to do speed run (Mage/ARC DPS). Ifrit had timers, what did people do? Find best type of group (All LNC DPS). What did people in Moogle do? Again (All ARC DPS). If you don't get the pattern yet, it has been all mainly influenced by the timers given to us.

I can't say the end results wouldn't be the same if done differently, but I do want to see what would happen if timers were not a factor in our succession.

I've got both... and let me tell you....
PLD has more hate potential....

You can hate on that if you like... But it's true....
If someone wants to sit down and do math... thats fine... lets do it

Warrior is the preferred tank because the HP is just... incredible....
That is the ONLY reason....

the biggest and more incredible enmity grabber IN THE GAME......
EVER AND OF ALL TIME IS:
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AOE RAMPART
Couple that with War drum and your Warrior has to do WAY MORE DAMAGE than PLD to have more hate... more damage than what is possible....

Warrior is the tank because Bosses can hit the tank for 3k damage and PLD's HP just isn't ready for that kind of action
But hate for hate... PLD wins... ALL DAY...

Being physically invincible 1/3 of the time (Divine Veil - 20 seconds, 60 second recast) helps a little... but still not safe enough to say I'd go PLD over WAR in a battle

Also... Collusion is just so much more useful than Cover (Not that cover isn't useful)
It's just easier to know when to use collusion. "BLM, you're about to cast Firaga??? ok, collusioning you now"
With cover.... Its like "If I actually loose hate... I'll cover you"

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

Extra damage output is pointless if you have to run 2 whms vs. 1 whm. dropping a whm adds another DD job to the mix which by itself will outproduce the warrior tank in raw numbers (unless your second whm was nuking to make up the difference). Everything will be more and more situational as things are nailed down and i'm looking forward to it.

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We actually do AV speed runs with only 1 whm as it is, and I'm still tanking on WAR. I'd like to go back to pld, but there's no reason to.

EDIT: Have people actually tested enmity generation with Vengeance? The chat log states that the damage is inflicted by the mob itself, so i've always been suspicious of any enmity generation by the damage caused by the ability.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

Extra damage output is pointless if you have to run 2 whms vs. 1 whm. dropping a whm adds another DD job to the mix which by itself will outproduce the warrior tank in raw numbers (unless your second whm was nuking to make up the difference). Everything will be more and more situational as things are nailed down and i'm looking forward to it.

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I think people are a bit confused on the 2 WHM thing.

People bringing 2 White Mages has nothing to do with the fact that you have a WAR tank. You really don't need 2 WHMs to keep a WAR alive. We take 1 White Mage into AV speed runs (with a WAR tank), and I solo heal the entire run just fine.

Sure, it's a little easier on my healing when a PLD is tanking since they can heal themselves with Holy Succor and can cancel some damaging moves like swipe with a block with Aegis Boon, but that difference in healing difficulty for a PLD vs a WAR is negligible right now, especially considering the extra damage output a WAR gives.

But getting back to my point, people bring 2 White Mages for a lot of reasons: It's easier to divide up the healing (one on tank, the other on DDs), insurance in case one of the White Mages goes down, 2 extra raises in case people die too often, etc. But having a WAR tank is not one of them.

I think a very simple way to have improved PLD more than any of these changes made today would have been to take the block requirement away from War Drum. Up the TP requirement to 1000, have the timer at 60 seconds, and make it combo with Shield Bash for extra AoE damage. Even if it did half the damage of WAR's AoE Weapon Skills, enmity + dmg might allow PLD to keep up with handling multiple enemies at once. Having to rely on block for one of only two AoE abilities, when block is already rare on tough enemies, is crippling.

They also need to look into making cross class skills weaker for the other job/class. Like flash should have an 10 sec recast for pld but 35 secs for war this would help pld tank mobs quite easily and also now that i notice you can have sent up for 13 secs on pld then divine vell up for 20secs no dmg which basically makes you take almost nod mg for 30+ secs means that pld will only take a lot of dmg for 30 secs while cool downs are up.

But for the love of god SE let pld do all combo's from the front its a tanking class IT SHOULD NEVER BEHIND THE MOB, THAT'S THE POINT OF THE TANK TO STAY IN FRONT.

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Originally Posted by Sol_Aureus

I think people are a bit confused on the 2 WHM thing.

People bringing 2 White Mages has nothing to do with the fact that you have a WAR tank. You really don't need 2 WHMs to keep a WAR alive. We take 1 White Mage into AV speed runs (with a WAR tank), and I solo heal the entire run just fine.

Sure, it's a little easier on my healing when a PLD is tanking since they can heal themselves with Holy Succor and can cancel some damaging moves like swipe with a block with Aegis Boon, but that difference in healing difficulty for a PLD vs a WAR is negligible right now, especially considering the extra damage output a WAR gives.

But getting back to my point, people bring 2 White Mages for a lot of reasons: It's easier to divide up the healing (one on tank, the other on DDs), insurance in case one of the White Mages goes down, 2 extra raises in case people die too often, etc. But having a WAR tank is not one of them.

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Doesn't it depend on how effective the new abilities for Pld are? Pld may be gaining a lot of self-sufficiency, allowing the whm more breathing room, virtually elminating the need to even consider taking a second? Speculation, but at least something worthy of thought. Being able to change jobs is great, too. All it costs is the 15 minute ability which are generally lackluster. There is so much versatility that none of us seem to be messin around with. I'm going to mess with things to find the best set up.

This is all just boss fight talk though, when it comes to clearing trash mobs otw to the bosses, sad to say, warrior still wins no contest.

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Originally Posted by FraenirVolsung

I think a very simple way to have improved PLD more than any of these changes made today would have been to take the block requirement away from War Drum. Up the TP requirement to 1000, have the timer at 60 seconds, and make it combo with Shield Bash for extra AoE damage. Even if it did half the damage of WAR's AoE Weapon Skills, enmity + dmg might allow PLD to keep up with handling multiple enemies at once. Having to rely on block for one of only two AoE abilities, when block is already rare on tough enemies, is crippling.

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Then GLA would still be better than PLD. They tried to fix the job without also buffing the class.

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Originally Posted by Alderton

Then GLA would still be better than PLD. They tried to fix the job without also buffing the class.

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That's not to say that they shouldn't have adjusted the abilities as they did today. They are all nice improvements. I just meant that PLD needs to be able to handle a crowd if it is going to compete with WAR.

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Originally Posted by FraenirVolsung

That's not to say that they shouldn't have adjusted the abilities as they did today. They are all nice improvements. I just meant that PLD needs to be able to handle a crowd if it is going to compete with WAR.

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TBH.... warrior doesn't do good with crowds either.... Steel Cyclone is pointless once the first AOE nuke goes out

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

Doesn't it depend on how effective the new abilities for Pld are? Pld may be gaining a lot of self-sufficiency, allowing the whm more breathing room, virtually elminating the need to even consider taking a second? Speculation, but at least something worthy of thought. Being able to change jobs is great, too. All it costs is the 15 minute ability which are generally lackluster. There is so much versatility that none of us seem to be messin around with. I'm going to mess with things to find the best set up.

This is all just boss fight talk though, when it comes to clearing trash mobs otw to the bosses, sad to say, warrior still wins no contest.

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Honestly I don't think the buffs PLD got this update give it the edge it needs. For stuff like Coincounter, sure, it's great. Divine Veil will be awesome for blocking swipes. Unfortunately though, unless they also increased the range of Divine Veil this patch, the healing effect is still not that useful considering the vast majority of the time everyone is out of range of the PLD, so the regen doesn't get much use.

Spirits within's buff is nice, but it's not like PLD had any trouble with hate before. A little extra damage output, but still nowhere close to a WAR.

Cover's buff is nice but not anything significant.

Stuff like Glower is still a huge danger to PLDs, not to mention Chimera. The point stands that because WAR's HP is so much higher than a PLD's and WARs can hold hate just fine AND they can deal significant damage that PLD is still lacking. L

Regarding virtually elminating the need to even consider taking a second WHM, like I said in my post, what class your tank is has virtually nothing to do with why people take 2 WHMs. People will still want to take 2 WHMs for that safety net.

I had meant for it to be taken that PLD provides its own safety net, I didn't miss your point, really! If pld provides enough breathing room then that second whm slot would just be wide open, if they don't then nothing would change from how it is now.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

I had meant for it to be taken that PLD provides its own safety net, I didn't miss your point, really! If pld provides enough breathing room then that second whm slot would just be wide open, if they don't then nothing would change from how it is now.

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People still do things on Classes for a safety net. It won't change. lol

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

I had meant for it to be taken that PLD provides its own safety net, I didn't miss your point, really! If pld provides enough breathing room then that second whm slot would just be wide open, if they don't then nothing would change from how it is now.

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And given the changes listed in the patch notes, they don't even come close to providing the same kind of safety net having another WHM does. If your 1 WHM dies your PLD can't really take over main healing efficiently, you don't have chainspell raises to get your down WHM alive again, AoE cures, regen, the list goes on.

The mitigation PLD has is practically the same as a WAR with exception of the force blocks, which are only useful in certain situations. When your PLD and WAR both get hit with glower and take 3,000 damage and your PLD has 3,500 HP vs your WAR's 4,500...yeah.

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

People still do things on Classes for a safety net. It won't change. lol

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You're clearly not on an intellectual level high enough for this discussion.

"It won't change!"
"...never can and never will!"

If you can't contribute anything useful to the topic at hand, please refrain from posting. Especially when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Sol_Aureus

And given the changes listed in the patch notes, they don't even come close to providing the same kind of safety net having another WHM does. If your 1 WHM dies your PLD can't really take over main healing efficiently, you don't have chainspell raises to get your down WHM alive again, AoE cures, regen, the list goes on.

The mitigation PLD has is practically the same as a WAR with exception of the force blocks, which are only useful in certain situations. When your PLD and WAR both get hit with glower and take 3,000 damage and your PLD has 3,500 HP vs your WAR's 4,500...yeah.

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How'd you let your whm die?! You're doin it wrong! :D

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Originally Posted by Alerith

You're clearly not on an intellectual level high enough for this discussion.

"It won't change!"
"...never can and never will!"

If you can't contribute anything useful to the topic at hand, please refrain from posting. Especially when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

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Actually look at what we are talking about before insulting someone's intelligence. People are not all the sudden going to start running 1 white mage. just because pld has some new def buffs. That's not the reason they run with 2 whms.
They run with 2 white mages for the same reason other groups run things as classes. To have that safety net for when something goes wrong. Those people won't change.

It's the Same reason people do all the fights as Ranged DD to avoid AoE. Because it's much more Safer then going in with melee's. Once again these people will not change their stance. Until the fights change.

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Originally Posted by Alderton

EDIT: Have people actually tested enmity generation with Vengeance? The chat log states that the damage is inflicted by the mob itself, so i've always been suspicious of any enmity generation by the damage caused by the ability.

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I have not crunched any numbers but I would say it does grant enmity. I have popped Sent(or Antagonize) with vengeance and held 6+ mobs at once while DD were attacking different targets.

It is also listed as a Counter! so I see it as the system has it down like you are doing the damage back at them.

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Originally Posted by Sol_Aureus

If your 1 WHM dies your PLD can't really take over main healing efficiently, you don't have chainspell raises to get your down WHM alive again

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Not completely true. Assuming you haven't had any other "Oh shit" moment, this is the perfect chance to make use of Hallowed Ground > Raise.