Can we have changes to the market system?

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Originally Posted by Angus

People are being forced to buy stacks of 99 just so they can get a few of what they need. That kind of market control can make someone quite a bit of gil.

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First, nobody is forced to buy anything. You can level every class, be it tank, dps, healer, and even every single crafting and gathering class all on one character. Nothing is preventing anyone from procuring the materials they need via their own means.


Selling goods in stacks is by no means market control. Severely undercutting every other person competing with your wares to the point where not only is it not profitable to craft anymore, but the finished (HQ obviously) items sell for less than what the mats cost in total, and then keeping those niches in the market completely locked away from other suppliers by devoting 1 retainer's entire inventory for each item they're controlling and effectively removing sometimes vast portions of content for crafters and gatherers. That's controlling a market. I remember on Balmung with rakshasa gear, 2 characters controlled every single piece, all 78(?) unique rakshasa weapons, armor and accessories, always having 10-20 listed of each at any given time and well below what it cost to craft them, and that went on for months. I personally probably placed 6 or 7 GM calls on them because that directly affects every single other player that would have otherwise liked to craft all or some of those items for some profit, which is a crafter's core content in the game. That's controlling a market in a free market system.

Comparing people who sell stuff in stacks to something as destabilizing as the former is ridiculous. In the real world it's very common to "save more when you spend more!" with vendors selling bulk quantities for a discounted price on everything from soft drinks to illicit drugs and everything in between. Also, admittedly I've been there too, looking for a single item I needed yet having to buy a stack of 50 or something instead out of my own laziness for not wanting to gathering it myself. When you go those 50, or 98 extra items just to get that single 1 you needed, it's not like you don't have a whole stack left over, which, surprise, you can put back on the markets and even sell it in smaller stacks for a slightly higher price if you so choose. So you're not really losing anything and could potentially gain from it even.

Apologies for the long winded run-on sentence but this line of reasoning, in my opinion, is just absurd. This is how open markets work. If I spend an hour crafting a stack of food for example, I don't want to sell them 1 at a time and I think you'd be hard-pressed to find very many others that would want to either. You're also always free to hire a gatherer or crafters via PF or your friends list or FC or what have you to get you some mats or something and negotiating a price with them. Many are willing and happy to make some quick gil doing something they already like. You have access to everything in the game just the same as everyone else does, unless for some reason you don't have expansion installed. No one is forced to do anything but people can be forced out of doing something they enjoy when others actually control markets like those I mentioned. There's a huge difference.

/end rant

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Originally Posted by Arthem

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/end rant

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I dare to say the problem is that people simply not want to "work" in a "game", they want to enjoy themself, those who need certain materials simply just want things done and leveled maybe? Nothing to do with lazy. Some of them simply not want more work additional to there real life job on top you know.

Free market or not, it is still a game and should work like one and not having to force me to be a salesmen or a expert at the tax market to just get something digital in a game done.
The problem is the ridilious amount of materials that exist to gather and needed for things, SE and Yoshida and his team gone way overboard to make something simple way to complicated, probably to sell more retainers i dare to say, even that i can understand them needing moeny since SE itself refuses to give them resources at all and they have to relay on extra subs adn mog station sales. Fire SE Managers and let people like Yoshida lead, not some greedy CEOs.

I mean i look at games like Guild Wars 2 and soemhow they mange to have every item able to sell always without loosing value with of course some exceptions, yet here people sell under trader price depstie you can sell right away at the retainer, i simply not get it.

I can farm and make anything I need. It is market control when the consumer is prevented from shopping elsewhere. Let's go back to the Soot Black Dye issue. On the Market Board, you may have over 450 items shown for sale, but you can only purchase from the first 100. So I go out, farm and make some dye, and try to sell off the remainer. The only way someone will ever see my sales is if I undercut all those sales of stacks of 99. Honestly, I don't care about the gil, I just think people should have the ability to see and buy any/all the items available.

I wish selling items wasn't tied to Retainers. I also think having Retainer location creating a "sales tax" on people buying from a separate location is pointless, and just a scummy way to deplete your gil in a minor way. It adds nothing and there is no point to it.

I don't feel too passionately about it though so I just live with the current iteration.

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Originally Posted by Saix027

yet here people sell under trader price depstie you can sell right away at the retainer, i simply not get it.

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That's because they're not paying attention to the sell to vendor price when they go to list. They're just trying to undercut what's already listed.

The fun part is that when listing an item for sale on a retainer, the default price is the sell to vendor price yet players will still change it to be lower.

It's an opportunity for other players to make a small profit (especially useful for new characters with only a few thousand gil). Certain materia used to be a gold mine for this before SE dropped all the sell to vendor prices. Think it was Materia V that used to vendor for 990 gil and I'd be able to find a fair amount listed for under 500. Would take a little running back between a MB and the closest vendor but I could start with 2000 gil on a new character and be up to 15-20 thousand in a few minutes.

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Originally Posted by ChocoPuni

Please, no! Then the market will be filled with the same retainers selling one piece per buy. The current market system is a lot of fun and I don't think there's anything that needs to be changed. What would be fun is to make it possible to control how many markets you want to sell to, either by forcing all players to choose only one market city (which would make sense for having 2 retainers so you could cover more market) OR give an option to sell on 1, 2 or 3 market cities. It would be fun to try to figure out which place buys more dyes, or which city would be more profitable to sell to and such - at first I thought that's how the market works but then I realized that the only thing that changes when you switch retainer's home place is the tax.

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This is a MMORPG, not a capitalism/marketing game. The purpose of the marketboards is to give players a place to buy/sell items with each other to help progress their other in-game goals. It's not to see which player can be the richest or shut out competition, even if some players attempt to use the marketboards that way.

SE isn't going to spend the time and resources developing a complicated, cut throat marketing system when that will negatively impact their ability to develop the content for what the game is intended to be, and drive players away from the game who don't want to be at the mercy of the financial tyrants while playing a MMORPG. If you want a competitive wealth accumulation/commodities market focused game, you'd be better off searching steam and other game sites for one designed to be that.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

That's because they're not paying attention to the sell to vendor price when they go to list. They're just trying to undercut what's already listed.

The fun part is that when listing an item for sale on a retainer, the default price is the sell to vendor price yet players will still change it to be lower.

It's an opportunity for other players to make a small profit (especially useful for new characters with only a few thousand gil). Certain materia used to be a gold mine for this before SE dropped all the sell to vendor prices. Think it was Materia V that used to vendor for 990 gil and I'd be able to find a fair amount listed for under 500. Would take a little running back between a MB and the closest vendor but I could start with 2000 gil on a new character and be up to 15-20 thousand in a few minutes.

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The easiest they should do atleast without interfeering with the market is not able to sell under trader price, almost every MMO i know has that as standard for auction houses. Because in my eyes it is no suprise with the flood on gold sellers we have then aswell, regardless if SE sees them as being "customers" aswell paying subs but life could be overall easier i guess.

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Originally Posted by Saix027

The easiest they should do atleast without interfeering with the market is not able to sell under trader price, almost every MMO i know has that as standard for auction houses. Because in my eyes it is no suprise with the flood on gold sellers we have then aswell, regardless if SE sees them as being "customers" aswell paying subs but life could be overall easier i guess.

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What's the harm in another player wanting to sell to other players below the trader price, especially when they can produce the item for less than trader price? Take something like the Glade Bench, commonly used in housing. The trader/vendor price is 5000 gil. I can buy the materials to make it from a Material Supplier for 296 gil and farm up the 2 shards needed at no cost if I don't already have them. Why should the player not be allowed to sell it for less than 5000 when there's still plenty of room to profit? If they can't sell for less than 5000, there's no point in making the items since a buyer can buy it directly from a Manservant/Hokonin in their housing without having to run to a marketboard.

Not sure which MMOs you've been playing but I've never seen one set the trader/vendor price as a required minimum floor for player transactions. They usually have some sort of default suggested sell price that's a fraction of the vendor price (1.5% here, 35% in WoW). In all cases players are free to list below that price as long as it's not the lowest possible currency value.

It's players who are ultimately responsible for the gil sellers, not SE. And it's not the below sell to vendor prices on the MB that are forcing players to turn to the gil sellers. It's the insanely high prices that players set.

If lazy players didn't decide to buy from the gil sellers so they could afford what greedy players are selling at ridiculously high prices, gil sellers would be out of business.

Would be cool to have a reverse marketboard where each item has listings of quantity requested and price they are willing to pay. You submit the requested amount of items and are immediately paid the gil amount from the buyer's retainer.

Could make a game out of just browsing those boards and fulfilling buy orders to increase your wealth. The people placing buy orders would of course need their retainer to be holding a gil amount equal or greater to the amount they agreed to pay for market listings and that gil cannot be withdrawn unless cancelling those orders.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

What's the harm in another player wanting to sell to other players below the trader price, especially when they can produce the item for less than trader price? Take something like the Glade Bench, commonly used in housing. The trader/vendor price is 5000 gil. I can buy the materials to make it from a Material Supplier for 296 gil and farm up the 2 shards needed at no cost if I don't already have them. Why should the player not be allowed to sell it for less than 5000 when there's still plenty of room to profit? If they can't sell for less than 5000, there's no point in making the items since a buyer can buy it directly from a Manservant/Hokonin in their housing without having to run to a marketboard.

Not sure which MMOs you've been playing but I've never seen one set the trader/vendor price as a required minimum floor for player transactions. They usually have some sort of default suggested sell price that's a fraction of the vendor price (1.5% here, 35% in WoW). In all cases players are free to list below that price as long as it's not the lowest possible currency value.

It's players who are ultimately responsible for the gil sellers, not SE. And it's not the below sell to vendor prices on the MB that are forcing players to turn to the gil sellers. It's the insanely high prices that players set.

If lazy players didn't decide to buy from the gil sellers so they could afford what greedy players are selling at ridiculously high prices, gil sellers would be out of business.

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It hurts the market simply, those who hoard gil never able to spend it on things while others depstie having millions of gil it feels like oyu barely have money for anything, increaseing gold sellers and hurting the game.

A lot people leave the game because they are sick of the PM's and Zone messages from Gold Sellers, lowering the subs, making the game harder to provide to evolve again.

I simply see the whole picture in this and over time with more and more pointless resources added on top from SE's part, the market will crumble under it, look at thigns like the ARR filler quests between ARR and Heavensward, it is basically the same issue, people will get tired and annoyed at it, if they can't even use the market properly it might feel pointless for them since everything feels dragged out that way, people exist who focus on crafting and trading in such games and those pay subs for it and help the game.

The thing is what i not understand, how is good to sell under trader price? Yes for others its nice to get but, the item description tells you it is avilable on a trader, something to explore and see which trader sells what, if people are getting lazy like this how about we just let all the items sell automaticly then? Trash items, desync items you can only have once automaticly? This is lazy and why then play the game at all. Because this is the logic i hear out of this, defending SE at all cost as always for a simple fix i ask for, because people get more and more lazy.

Games should be fun and i not want it turn into work but you need to show some effort aswell if you want something out of it, not get everything served on a plate, if i wanted that i play games with "time savers" to skip most things, which is basically Gold Sellers in a nutshell aswell, skip for real money and buy expensive gear from the market as example. SE does themself simply no favor if they not start changing things.

My main change i want is stop clustering the game with to many to complicated crafting and items, we not need every new addon 300 new resources to gather, it is way to much simply, use old resorces more often in newer recepts, make everything somewhat valuable simply, stop making one time items like i think one of the Obsidian it was in game only used for ONE item in the wohle game. If you also want button bloat to stop you should also stop item bloat, but then again they sell retaienrs that way which, as much i love this game, is the biggest scam ever in a monthly subbed game, not even F2P games not do that, except maybe The Old Republic.

Only thing I would change, would be price adjusting, make it you can only adjust price every 12h or so.

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Originally Posted by Saix027

It hurts the market simply, those who hoard gil never able to spend it on things while others depstie having millions of gil it feels like oyu barely have money for anything, increaseing gold sellers and hurting the game.

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Those who hoard gil can buy anything they want. The problem is the game doesn't give them anything worth spending it on.

Someone who's got millions of gil shouldn't be having a problem buying items priced below what vendor NPCs sell the item for.

Low prices doesn't increase the demand for RMT. It's the outrageously high prices that other players set that will increase RMT.

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Originally Posted by Saix027

A lot people leave the game because they are sick of the PM's and Zone messages from Gold Sellers, lowering the subs, making the game harder to provide to evolve again.

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Citation needed. I seriously doubt there are hordes of players quitting over RMT spam when it's a problem in every multiplayer online game.

RMT also doesn't keep a game from evolving. Evolution comes from new content ideas.

That's still got nothing to do with free market pricing and allowing players to list below the vendor price if they choose.

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Originally Posted by Saix027

I simply see the whole picture in this and over time with more and more pointless resources added on top from SE's part, the market will crumble under it, look at thigns like the ARR filler quests between ARR and Heavensward, it is basically the same issue, people will get tired and annoyed at it, if they can't even use the market properly it might feel pointless for them since everything feels dragged out that way, people exist who focus on crafting and trading in such games and those pay subs for it and help the game.

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You're talking about a problem that every MMO faces. Adding new content and features to keep the game interesting instead of expecting players to remain satisfied with only what was part of the game at initial release. People get bored when there's no significant change.

I'd agree that SE goes a bit overboard with the number of new crafting reagents added each expansion when crafting could rely more on creating new combinations of existing reagents yet there will always need to be some new items to make leveling the gathering professions feel meaningful.

That's still got nothing to do with free market pricing and allowing players to list below the vendor price if they choose.

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Originally Posted by Saix027

The thing is what i not understand, how is good to sell under trader price? Yes for others its nice to get but, the item description tells you it is avilable on a trader, something to explore and see which trader sells what, if people are getting lazy like this how about we just let all the items sell automaticly then? Trash items, desync items you can only have once automaticly? This is lazy and why then play the game at all. Because this is the logic i hear out of this, defending SE at all cost as always for a simple fix i ask for, because people get more and more lazy.

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How is it good? Because it gets the player to buy from the other player, giving the second player an income so they can buy the things they want. The first player saves gil in turn, allowing them to buy even more.

You might have an excess of time to waste so it doesn't bother you to have to track down what vendor is selling an item. Not everyone has the same amount of time available.

No one is being lazy. An action is being done to earn the gil.

You're not asking for a simple fix. You're asking SE to redesign the standard free market economy into a regulated economy ruled by what you personally want.

Thanks, no.

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Originally Posted by Saix027

Games should be fun and i not want it turn into work but you need to show some effort aswell if you want something out of it, not get everything served on a plate, if i wanted that i play games with "time savers" to skip most things, which is basically Gold Sellers in a nutshell aswell, skip for real money and buy expensive gear from the market as example. SE does themself simply no favor if they not start changing things.

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Fun is subjective. Not everyone finds the same things fun. It's why I don't play MOBA or FPS game - I don't find them fun.

I agree, people shouldn't be handed everything on a silver platter. But there is also a matter of what is reasonable for a game and which content should require more effort. Considering this game is focused around the idea that you're a mighty fighter and the only one capable of defeating certain evils, it makes no sense for the market system to be micromanaged.

SE has designed the game to be what they want it to be within the limitations they have to work with. It's not up to them to change the game to please you.

It's up to you to decide if you want to play the game they've made.

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Originally Posted by Saix027

My main change i want is stop clustering the game with to many to complicated crafting and items, we not need every new addon 300 new resources to gather, it is way to much simply, use old resorces more often in newer recepts, make everything somewhat valuable simply, stop making one time items like i think one of the Obsidian it was in game only used for ONE item in the wohle game. If you also want button bloat to stop you should also stop item bloat, but then again they sell retaienrs that way which, as much i love this game, is the biggest scam ever in a monthly subbed game, not even F2P games not do that, except maybe The Old Republic.

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Go back to what I said above. I agree to a degree but there will always be a need for new items to fuel progression and that will lead to the item database gradually increasing. There's no point in being a level 80 miner if everything useful that comes from mining can be gathered at level 50 yet a miner needs something to create the sense of progression as much as any other class.

You evidently haven't played a lot of F2P MMOs if you think they don't have their real money options for inventory expansion.

If you think it's a scam, then don't pay for additional retainers. Learn to manage your inventory better. You don't need to keep everything. You can gather or buy items only as you're ready to use them.

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Originally Posted by Fernandosilveirasc

Only thing I would change, would be price adjusting, make it you can only adjust price every 12h or so.

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Your suggestion is lousy because it doesn't consider the possibility that one needs to fix an error.

If you're checking back with your retainer multiple times per day in order to adjust prices (presumably to undercut someone), then you're doing something wrong and wasting time. Whatever you were trying to sell, desynthesize it, and try again.

If your idea of playing the market is to observe other people that have made intelligent choices, and then proceed to ever-so-slightly undercut them, then you're a ding-dong that deserves to have their time wasted.

If there's already an established provider at a reasonable price (noting that you probably don't know what reasonable is), then just post at that price, and be patient.

If you're buying NQ stuff from a vendor and posting it to the marketboard, then you're a waste of breath, and a double-ding-dong.

But really, what you want to do is find a neglected product category, and sell HQ whatever at a price the market will bear. This increases the odds that a given player will find something useful to them as they advance through the game, improving the overall experience.

You can't recognize a neglected product category? This indicates that you really don't understand the game mechanics, which prevents you from recognizing what players would be interested in. If this describes you, then stay away from the marketboard, and invest your time thinking about what helps players (i.e., would make them interested in buying *your* stuff).

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Originally Posted by Tohe-Spidhire

Your suggestion is lousy because it doesn't consider the possibility that one needs to fix an error.

If you're checking back with your retainer multiple times per day in order to adjust prices (presumably to undercut someone), then you're doing something wrong and wasting time. Whatever you were trying to sell, desynthesize it, and try again.

If your idea of playing the market is to observe other people that have made intelligent choices, and then proceed to ever-so-slightly undercut them, then you're a ding-dong that deserves to have their time wasted.

If there's already an established provider at a reasonable price (noting that you probably don't know what reasonable is), then just post at that price, and be patient.

If you're buying NQ stuff from a vendor and posting it to the marketboard, then you're a waste of breath, and a double-ding-dong.

But really, what you want to do is find a neglected product category, and sell HQ whatever at a price the market will bear. This increases the odds that a given player will find something useful to them as they advance through the game, improving the overall experience.

You can't recognize a neglected product category? This indicates that you really don't understand the game mechanics, which prevents you from recognizing what players would be interested in. If this describes you, then stay away from the marketboard, and invest your time thinking about what helps players (i.e., would make them interested in buying *your* stuff).

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You certainlly never dealt with botting.

I think it might be better to just have a minor listing fee to discourage people from constantly microadjusting their prices because the undercut bots are a very real issue on multiple servers and only they would be likely to be adjusting their prices often enough for it to start cutting into their profit margin significantly.

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Originally Posted by Fernandosilveirasc

You certainlly never dealt with botting.

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If you suspect someone is using a bot, then report it. However, don't use the existence of bots as a cheap straw man argument to somehow undercut the advice that I provided. Shame on you.

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Originally Posted by Tohe-Spidhire

If you suspect someone is using a bot, then report it. However, don't use the existence of bots as a cheap straw man argument to somehow undercut the advice that I provided. Shame on you.

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You really are clueless on how this works.

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Originally Posted by Fernandosilveirasc

You really are clueless on how this works.

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No, he isn't. He gave you some solid advice. Your problem is you're so upset about getting undercut that you can't see what he's trying to tell you.

Try reading it again. There's no point engaging in an undercut war over an item that isn't selling. If you find yourself needing to keep adjusting the price to undercut, you're better off removing it from the marketboard and finding something else to sell instead. I wouldn't get rid of the item right away. Wait a few days and see if the market on the item has changed. Sometimes it will be worth relisting.

But you're better off using your time finding the right items to sell than spending your time monitoriing prices for undercuts on something that isn't selling.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I think it might be better to just have a minor listing fee to discourage people from constantly microadjusting their prices because the undercut bots are a very real issue on multiple servers and only they would be likely to be adjusting their prices often enough for it to start cutting into their profit margin significantly.

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That really wouldn't change anything, they would still do the microadjustment. They will either just need to sell a bit more stuff to offset that "minor fee" (which is not a problem with the farms they have) or the fee will be punishing everyone.

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Originally Posted by Tohe-Spidhire

If you suspect someone is using a bot, then report it. However, don't use the existence of bots as a cheap straw man argument to somehow undercut the advice that I provided. Shame on you.

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Reporting marketboard bots is just as useless as reporting any other type.

One of the bot farmers on my server has been around since late HW and has been fairly consistent at monopolizing the market once the initial post-patch crafting frenzy dies down. They keep a number of level 21 alts parked at a retainer bell in each ARR city to serve as their undercutting mules while the main account spams crafts all day long.

At this point they're widely known of and have been reported by several different people since they first showed up but business continues as usual...

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

No, he isn't. He gave you some solid advice. Your problem is you're so upset about getting undercut that you can't see what he's trying to tell you.

Try reading it again. There's no point engaging in an undercut war over an item that isn't selling. If you find yourself needing to keep adjusting the price to undercut, you're better off removing it from the marketboard and finding something else to sell instead. I wouldn't get rid of the item right away. Wait a few days and see if the market on the item has changed. Sometimes it will be worth relisting.

But you're better off using your time finding the right items to sell than spending your time monitoriing prices for undercuts on something that isn't selling.

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Ok, lemme put this in a practical way.

I'm selling a facet crafting gear, which is one of the most sought after items on the market. There is a price undercut bot on ALL facet gears, so no matter if I check the market to undercut the price every 5 minutes, the bot will always undercut it. He also has enough supplies to wage a low price war forever, since bot has no time value. So not only will I never sell an item because of the bot that keeps constantly undercutting price, i'll lose time in trying to do so.

Now tell me, how does any of that advice help here.

And the report option? Joke, there is a thread on the general discussion board, thats going on for almost a year, you should check it out. Basically its zero response, and bot multiplying.

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Originally Posted by Fernandosilveirasc

Ok, lemme put this in a practical way.

I'm selling a facet crafting gear, which is one of the most sought after items on the market. There is a price undercut bot on ALL facet gears, so no matter if I check the market to undercut the price every 5 minutes, the bot will always undercut it. He also has enough supplies to wage a low price war forever, since bot has no time value. So not only will I never sell an item because of the bot that keeps constantly undercutting price, i'll lose time in trying to do so.

Now tell me, how does any of that advice help here.

And the report option? Joke, there is a thread on the general discussion board, thats going on for almost a year, you should check it out. Basically its zero response, and bot multiplying.

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To be fair, your suggestion wouldn't work given these players usually have several alts or even alt accounts. So you'd undercut only for them to transfer the item to another character and undercut you again. I suppose one way around that would be restrict trading but even then, they can still out-produce you.

Ultimately, the far better solution is SE actually do something. A big reason we're seeing so many bots nowadays is less and less people are afraid of getting banned. All they need to do is make an example out of several of the known botters (they aren't hard to find) and you'll scare off a lot of the smaller ones. It won't impact RMT but that's a losing battle anyway. They typically don't dominate the market board like actual players botting do.

I guess you are right.

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Originally Posted by Fernandosilveirasc

I'm selling a facet crafting gear, which is one of the most sought after items on the market. There is a price undercut bot on ALL facet gears, so no matter if I check the market to undercut the price every 5 minutes, the bot will always undercut it. He also has enough supplies to wage a low price war forever, since bot has no time value. So not only will I never sell an item because of the bot that keeps constantly undercutting price, i'll lose time in trying to do so.

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You do understand that there are a lot of players aware of the bot problem and won't buy from a suspected botter?

When you play the undercut game against the bot, you're making yourself look like you're one as well. If the only sellers a buyer has to choose from are apparent bots, they might as well go with the cheaper one.

Set a price. Stick with it. Your item will sell if the demand is there and your price is only slightly above what the undercutter price is.

There are also other things to make to sell which are just as, if not more, profitable. Leveling gear for just about any job level 60+. There are players who will pay more for HQ Ironworks/Onishi/Yamashi gear than the going rate for Facet. The items might sell a little less often but that's thanks to low supply and the high price. Sell that gear at Facet prices and demand could potentially increase. DoW/DoM gear is selling just as well since so many new characters level up much faster than their MSQ progression. They don't have access to dungeons that drop gear their level or the tomestone vendors selling it so they're forced to rely on the marketboard.

Housing items. Not quite so lucrative at the moment with the wards on NA worlds packed solid but there are still the occasional new owners buying furnishings not to mention those who are trying to decorate apartments and FC private rooms, or who want to redecorate what they already have but can't make the furnishings themselves. If Ishgard housing ever opens up, the housing item market will boom.

Is this starting to make more sense now, or do you still want to stubbornly believe that Facet gear is the only thing worth selling?

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

You do understand that there are a lot of players aware of the bot problem and won't buy from a suspected botter?

When you play the undercut game against the bot, you're making yourself look like you're one as well. If the only sellers a buyer has to choose from are apparent bots, they might as well go with the cheaper one.

Set a price. Stick with it. Your item will sell if the demand is there and your price is only slightly above what the undercutter price is.

There are also other things to make to sell which are just as, if not more, profitable. Leveling gear for just about any job level 60+. There are players who will pay more for HQ Ironworks/Onishi/Yamashi gear than the going rate for Facet. The items might sell a little less often but that's thanks to low supply and the high price. Sell that gear at Facet prices and demand could potentially increase. DoW/DoM gear is selling just as well since so many new characters level up much faster than their MSQ progression. They don't have access to dungeons that drop gear their level or the tomestone vendors selling it so they're forced to rely on the marketboard.

Housing items. Not quite so lucrative at the moment with the wards on NA worlds packed solid but there are still the occasional new owners buying furnishings not to mention those who are trying to decorate apartments and FC private rooms, or who want to redecorate what they already have but can't make the furnishings themselves. If Ishgard housing ever opens up, the housing item market will boom.

Is this starting to make more sense now, or do you still want to stubbornly believe that Facet gear is the only thing worth selling?

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You assume too much. Never said I only worked with facet. My criticism is plainly on the monopolization of the most profitable part of crafting.

I've been making more money with less stress by looking for niche glam/furniture items and selling those instead of trying to delve into the bot-infested mainstream markets and trying to fight their undercutting.

It sucks how hard it is to push sales of some things with all the bots around, but it's pretty much just something people are going to forced to work around until SE gets off their butts and starts doing something about them (Which would be a much better solution then trying to curb them with limitations that would likely impact legit players as well).

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Originally Posted by Fernandosilveirasc

You assume too much. Never said I only worked with facet. My criticism is plainly on the monopolization of the most profitable part of crafting.

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Except it's not the most profitable part of crafting, which is part of what I was trying to point out to you. Crafted end game gear has a short window of good profitability, which is the first 2-3 weeks it can be made. After that, demand sinks rapidly and there's too much competition trying to sell to what buyers remain. It's even worse now players can visit cross world to ship for the best prices in their data center.

All this talk about bots is OT with respect to the OP.

Still, let me point out that, if the game developers consistently choose to not enforce the stated rules about bot usage, then this is defacto admission that bot usage is fair and legal. No point arguing about it; SE is okay with you using bots, regardless of the TOS. The TOS needs to be updated.

At the same time, complaining about bots in the forums is not how you report issues. If you have VIDEO evidence, presented from both your point-of-view, and those that are assisting you to collect evidence, then this would be actionable. Otherwise, all you are doing is raising a flag about something you claim, and then expect SE staff to fully understand the issue.

That aside, if you are attempting to market something into a saturated channel, and then complain about how others are undercutting you (bot, or otherwise) when you yourself are attempting to undercut, then you are a first-order ding dong. I don't care how much you feel that you deserve to have those juicy profits. Go target something that isn't being sold effectively, at a price that is attractive to the market, or get out of the market (and the forums).

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Originally Posted by Tohe-Spidhire

All this talk about bots is OT with respect to the OP.

Still, let me point out that, if the game developers consistently choose to not enforce the stated rules about bot usage, then this is defacto admission that bot usage is fair and legal. No point arguing about it; SE is okay with you using bots, regardless of the TOS. The TOS needs to be updated.

At the same time, complaining about bots in the forums is not how you report issues. If you have VIDEO evidence, presented from both your point-of-view, and those that are assisting you to collect evidence, then this would be actionable. Otherwise, all you are doing is raising a flag about something you claim, and then expect SE staff to fully understand the issue.

That aside, if you are attempting to market something into a saturated channel, and then complain about how others are undercutting you (bot, or otherwise) when you yourself are attempting to undercut, then you are a first-order ding dong. I don't care how much you feel that you deserve to have those juicy profits. Go target something that isn't being sold effectively, at a price that is attractive to the market, or get out of the market (and the forums).

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Bots have certain impact on the Marketboard. They do impact it significantly, and should be weeded out when possible.

Undercutting however is inevitable. One person starts, then another counters, then it comes more than just undercutting that is involved - which can be exciting in its own way. It's a optional part of the game, and I treat it as such. Some days I want to make money, some days I want to sell only certain gear, some days I get competitive. Some individuals confuse the Marketboard with the game proper and obsess over it. I'm experiencing some harassment due to it right - some people don't get that people can enjoy the meditative tranquility of gathering - much luck to them, SE takes harrassment cases much more seriously than most others. That said, FFXIV is a MMORPG. It's not a market simulator, expecting others to pick the most optimal outcome isn't wise. In fact, it almost guaranteed to be pointless - the World marketboard access makes it easy for people in the know to go to other cheaper servers, the Companion App lets people change their prices anywhere and at any time from tablet or other mobile device, and there's no cooldown when it comes to price changing. There are little limitations to entry and... Why did I set that price? I like rounded numbers!

I know someone with two accounts that utilizes his literal legion of retainers to dominate markets - he spends his day changing from one character to the next - its' his money. The more retainers you own (aka the more retainers you buy from SE), the more ventures you have, the more selling slots you got, the more money you'll earn. Fake money you use to buy digital stuff you don't actually own (because you have to pay your sub to access it) in a game that'll one day fade away as you move on to the next game.

It's a online game, people have many different motivations and not everyone understands that not everyone's goal is to earn money optimally like some sort of obsessive capitalist.

As a note thought regarding evidence, SE GMs can't actually use player-collected evidence, if I recall, due to the fact that such items can be doctored or function as sources of malware. SE has their own system that they reference when responding to bot reports. It's apparently a pretty good system that goes beyond using logs to determine violations, but I don't know much about it.

As much as I'd love to buy only what I need, I also know this will be a darn mess that isn't worth the coding effort. I also think retainers are an exercise in resource management because they can carry as many items as you do so my protip is to avoid hoarding unless you're sure you actually need the stuff. I also vendor off any drop that's already cheaply sold by vendors like bat fangs and wings. Otherwise, my retainers generally sell everything at shocking speed for me, especially high demand mats or HQ weapons/gear.

1. Buy the stack and relist what you don't need. Or go up in price to buy fewer but overall price is lower.
2. This is terrible for market corrections. It means that undercutting would be even more obnoxious and potentially cost a lot for people as the market balances out with the rate of purchase.

I hope they don't do any of this.

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Originally Posted by Saix027

My main change i want is stop clustering the game with to many to complicated crafting and items, we not need every new addon 300 new resources to gather, it is way to much simply, use old resorces more often in newer recepts, make everything somewhat valuable simply, stop making one time items like i think one of the Obsidian it was in game only used for ONE item in the wohle game. If you also want button bloat to stop you should also stop item bloat...

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This is one of my biggest gripes about this game. There are enough mats that it takes 6+ retainers to keep mats in inventory for an omnicrafter, if everything you keep on hand is NQ, and you want to make anything. I would absolutely love to see old mats given new uses. I get annoyed when they bring out new furnishings--and they don't go into the economy, or they do in such a way that they're basically valued as junk, like the Ishgardian Restoration furnishings. And the ones from the Kupo scratch-offs devalue and flood the market with items that devalue the ones there. The scratch-offs are fun, and I really love winning delineations, minions and materia, but I don't think they help the economy or value of crafting much. ESPECIALLY when it builds more grinding crafting into the game, instead of crafting where people are selling items that other players want/need that has their name on it. So you get a sense of pride in what you've done.

That said, I know a lot of us enjoy discovering the newest nodes and characteristics on patch day. I wouldn't want to get rid of that. I like what SE did with the last doh/dol upgrade and just came out with a couple new gathered mats and reused older ones.

An economy that keeps as much of the in-game items and materials moving--to me--is the ideal. It means that people are obtaining things they want--at prices they're willing to pay--and crafters/gatherers get social and job fulfillment b/c they're using their jobs to do something fun and possibly challenging.