Gnashing Fang Combo, one button?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Considering Gunbreaker is already using that concept with continuation, you're dramatizing way too much that situation. And frankly, "extremely difficult" because you'd have to look at your hotbar and your animation ? I guess BRDs, RDMs and BLMs are outstanding players because they manage to look for procs on their hotbar...

---

BLM has the second lowest APM from all the jobs and those 2 are ranged, so its not even near the GNB gameplay.

Copy paste this
/action "Gnashing Fang"
/action "Savage Claw"
/action "Wicked Talon"
/macroicon "gnashing fang"

Its working just fine, do few runs with it and decide which is better, i already decided i am better with 3 button rotation and so SE devs thought so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nedkel

BLM has the second lowest APM from all the jobs and those 2 are ranged, so its not even near the GNB gameplay.

Copy paste this
/action "Gnashing Fang"
/action "Savage Claw"
/action "Wicked Talon"
/macroicon "gnashing fang"

Its working just fine, do few runs with it and decide which is better, i already decided i am better with 3 button rotation and so SE devs thought so.

---

It works fine if you're alright with it causing delays.

Stop spreading bad practice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Would you say that GNB is well designed if Tear/Rip/Gouge were three separate slots ? Because we're advocating the same concept for combos that are, by design, supposed to work that way.

---

If each Continuation skill were there own separate button slots, I would call button bloat on that, but because they all share the same button, no need to fix what isn't broke...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

You're always free to apply the same combo on multiple slots if you want to press different buttons, but it would still end with the same skill rotation. The only exception would be for MNK, that should need a "Perfect" version of its skills, available during Perfect Balance.

---

As someonewho plays on gamepad with WXHB, I only do that DNC because of their Standard/Technical Step skills, and I never do that for any other class/job in the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, and from SE's own confession, it was mostly because they feared button bloat...which condensed skills would partly fix.

---

You said "partly fix" which means you left something out...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

You said "partly fix" which means you left something out...

---

If your goal is to have 24 buttons at the end of the day, no matter how prudent you are about adding them, you eventually hit 24.

That's how consolidation "partly" fixes it. It gives you more breathing room before you have to trim something down.

It really shouldn't take someone explaining this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nedkel

BLM has the second lowest APM from all the jobs and those 2 are ranged, so its not even near the GNB gameplay.

Copy paste this
/action "Gnashing Fang"
/action "Savage Claw"
/action "Wicked Talon"
/macroicon "gnashing fang"

Its working just fine, do few runs with it and decide which is better, i already decided i am better with 3 button rotation and so SE devs thought so.

---

Oh hey that's basically my old GNB macro I don't use anymore because I got better at timing my non-macro weaponskills in actual encounters...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nedkel

BLM has the second lowest APM from all the jobs and those 2 are ranged, so its not even near the GNB gameplay.

---

You realize that GCD and procs are exactly the same wether you're ranged or melee ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

If each Continuation skill were there own separate button slots, I would call button bloat on that, but because they all share the same button, no need to fix what isn't broke...

---

Considering how many skills we already lost because of that, we called consolidated combos for years because of button bloat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

As someonewho plays on gamepad with WXHB, I only do that DNC because of their Standard/Technical Step skills, and I never do that for any other class/job in the game.

---

You still have the option to do that, if you really want different buttons...just for different buttons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

You said "partly fix" which means you left something out...

---

Yes, because saving 3 slots for DRK WS won't ensure that it'd never hit button bloat...duh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Considering how many skills we already lost because of that, we called consolidated combos for years because of button bloat.

You still have the option to do that, if you really want different buttons...just for different buttons.

Yes, because saving 3 slots for DRK WS won't ensure that it'd never hit button bloat...duh.

---

And what you are saying no longer makes sense...

some ppl are comparing complety diferent stuff here, procs and skills that evolves from other skills on combat thanks to a GCD are not the same of have a entire combo inside 1 button and being forced to spam it 24/7, continuation it's not even anything comparable to a GCD combo consolidated to a single button, is a skill that react and swap to the respective oGCD depending of the GCD, they are not always used and technically there is no real diference to spam the same oGCD apart of numbers and animation.

don't force the entire comunity to spam 1-2 buttons during 5-8s depending of the steps of the combo bcs lazines or "saving space", do that with oGCD if you want apart of work better it's not so invasive for the ones that preffer no spam the same buttom almost all day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

And what you are saying no longer makes sense...

---

It makes perfect sense.

Reyn merely took care not to use an absolute in something that would doubtless have some theoretical limitation once approaching the ridiculous, likely to save you the time of making the unnecessary "But, that wouldn't work <a ridiculous circumstance or extent>" and saving himself the obvious retort of "True, but a failure to improve a ridiculous circumstance doesn't nullify its benefit across all reasonable extents and circumstances."

Historically, whenever we've "needed" to save button space, we've also lost complexity rather than merely making more efficient use of button space. This trimming of abilities was rarely actually asked for (save perhaps Heavy Thrust a few other notable examples), but the devs assured us it was necessary due to "button bloat", despite a few of the skills lost being, frankly, more attractive in gameplay than the new expansion's skills which replaced them and often still having plenty of button-space left according to most players. Faced with this official "need", many players who did not want their skills removed going into SB instead asked for consolidation (a reduced use of button-space to support the exact same number of and interaction among their skills). And then the same before ShB. This will likely continue across ShB and into the next expansion, too, because *gasp*, not everyone is okay with losing the skills they already had in place of --rather than being available alongside-- new skills (quite a few of which kind have feel just... tossed in for the sake of meeting a quota), especially when there is a solution that would instead cost nothing. It's nothing shocking.

To be honest. Another point I've seen made, about macros. You can get very efficient if you understand how macros work, but most people don't bother with them outside of crafting due to the slight delay they apply to the GCD that someone has already mentioned. The delay really builds up to something noticeable over time. Some jobs can get away with this more than others though, it depends on what you are trying to do and how many macros you wish to use. Sometimes I have 1~3 Macros on a job to make certain things easier.

I'd love to see SE work on the macro system more to make it "battle-worthy". Finding a way for them to eliminate the GCD delay would open up macros as something viable to work on way more often. This is another QoL thing that has been forgotten really. Having macros that you can use in-battle would solve a lot of problems for those that are having issues with pressing too many buttons.

Understand that while all your points are valid to you. There are others out there that would benefit greatly from many of these QoL features that I've discussed in my original post and then here with bringing up macros.

Having the option to use these or not is the way to please everyone.

Thanks for reading, friends~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riko_Futatabi

I'd love to see SE work on the macro system more to make it "battle-worthy". Finding a way for them to eliminate the GCD delay would open up macros as something viable to work on way more often.

---

• Remove the GCD delay on macros
• Allow a macro to bet put on a hotbar by a set command

And every player can consolidate skills as much as he want to.

Yet, like I said earlier, if you really want to use three different buttons, you can always set the same combo three times. For now, I do that on my DRG since I'm used to separate Chaos Thrust and Full thrust combos on different triggers completely. Thus, True Thrust is set twice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

It works fine if you're alright with it causing delays.

Stop spreading bad practice.

---

The delay is bigger if you put /macroicon in front of /ac
Then yes, it is quite significant delay, but if you put it after /ac the difference between both counts in miliseconds.

Its not as bad as for example playing FFXIV from another continent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nedkel

The delay is bigger if you put /macroicon in front of /ac
Then yes, it is quite significant delay, but if you put it after /ac the difference between both counts in miliseconds.

Its not as bad as for example playing FFXIV from another continent.

---

And yet there is still a delay using macros for combat because you're too lazy to press buttons, at 2.4GCD you're losing 0.6 seconds per macro GCD, so you lose a GCD every 4 GCDs, dancer which plays optimally at 2.5 GCD loses 0.5 GCD per macro GCD loses a GCD every 5 GCDs, so it is a significant loss as the fight goes on.

This does not account for any potential delay in the macro activating either or how the macro will handle clipping from oGCDs, or server lagging, commonly found in crafting macros, "cannot execute at this time", which could potentially break combos.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Currently: Spend 3-8 buttons to do 1 thing.
Suggested: Spend 3-8 buttons to do 3-8 things.

If you can't identify the difference...

---

That's an overhaul to the entire combat system, balance would need to be considered now that every job has 3 to 8 new actions, each functionally distinct from one another to avoid perceived bloat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

That's an overhaul to the entire combat system, balance would need to be considered now that every job has 3 to 8 new actions, each functionally distinct from one another to avoid perceived bloat.

---

Long as the PPS comes out to roughly the same. Easier said than done, but an easy metric to aim for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

Long as the PPS comes out to roughly the same. Easier said than done, but an easy metric to aim for.

---

It's not really about PPS at that point. To keep the abilities functionally distinct at the proposed "3 to 8 buttons do 3 to 8 things" you'd need to decide a new scope for every job or else you end up with abilities competing with, and invalidating, each other like back in the day when you had multiple tiers of Stone available.

I'm not saying it's a bad suggestion or even saying you can't suggest it. But pushing for that kind of a stated goal is asking them to look at the foundation of this game's combat, it's more than "Hey consolidate Royal Authority combo into one button."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

I'm not saying it's a bad suggestion or even saying you can't suggest it. But pushing for that kind of a stated goal is asking them to look at the foundation of this game's combat, it's more than "Hey consolidate Royal Authority combo into one button."

---

We should expect that from a company such as SE.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

I'm not saying it's a bad suggestion or even saying you can't suggest it. But pushing for that kind of a stated goal is asking them to look at the foundation of this game's combat, it's more than "Hey consolidate Royal Authority combo into one button."

---

Shouldn't they be looking at the foundation of the game's combat anyways, rather than just neglecting its increasing shallowness in favor of complacency or asking players just to be likewise complacent and greedily swallow button bloat for its mere illusion of depth?

Yes, that could entail a whole overhaul of the combat system. But for the time being all anyone here is asking is not to have to spend button-space on the mere illusion of complexity when not doing so does not, in any notable fashion save perhaps to those suffering from arthritis or similar handicaps, reduce difficulty.

Call out the deep, dark slippery slope of "Oh, no, the game might actually take some thought and offer a modicum of choice!" however you like, but all that's being requested here, right now, is the choice not to intentionally bloat our bars as the default design has done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyyy

We should expect that from a company such as SE.

---

The problem with expecting that from SE is you have people who like the foundation of this game's combat as-is. In the worst case, them overhauling combat in such a way would make it significantly worse too. In the best case you'll still have people pining for the old combat system and having no way to enjoy it anymore because the foundational changes needed couldn't really be optional.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Shouldn't they be looking at the foundation of the game's combat anyways, rather than just neglecting its increasing shallowness in favor of complacency or asking players just to be likewise complacent and greedily swallow button bloat for its mere illusion of depth?

---

I don't know. Should they? The trend SE is looking at right now is how average subs are going through the roof with each expansion. They're seeing massive success and clearly customer churn remains within acceptable values. The risk of shaking that foundation might be greater than the reward, which is probably the answer to why a lot of requested QoL are ignored or put on the near permanent "please look forward to it" list.

I'm not much of a fan either, but I've seen it suggested and can believe that while this game is a cash cow for SE, its history has the execs and the devs scared to take any big chances for better or for worse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

That's an overhaul to the entire combat system, balance would need to be considered now that every job has 3 to 8 new actions, each functionally distinct from one another to avoid perceived bloat.

---

That's only if you increase the total number of abilities to fill the now-conserved slots (beyond what we do... every... single... expansion). We've yet to make any such suggestion here, even if it will of course occur with further expansions (hopefully now without costing us our old skills or our entertainment over the course of leveling) only indicated the current inefficiency and the goal of the suggestions.

If it takes up a button, it should represent a separate decision or separately tracked cooldown. If it does neither, it does not deserve to be forced upon us as a separate button.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

The problem with expecting that from SE is you have people who like the foundation of this game's combat as-is. In the worst case, them overhauling combat in such a way would make it significantly worse too. In the best case you'll still have people pining for the old combat system and having no way to enjoy it anymore because the foundational changes needed couldn't really be optional.

---

Again, though, that's not what's being suggested here. I might prefer that, personally, but all that's been suggested is using fewer unnecessary buttons to do the exact same thing. Not one ability would be changed. Heck, the change, unless one read the patch notes and, say, never took the extra skills off their hotbar to activate their coupling/auto-shifting, could go completely unnoticed except to those who want to save button-space in this way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

That's an overhaul to the entire combat system, balance would need to be considered now that every job has 3 to 8 new actions, each functionally distinct from one another to avoid perceived bloat.

---

It's the exact same overhaul you need when a new expansion come out and with its new skills. And until that, you could still have skills with the exact same effect, but simply with different animation, just to make the combat flow less repeating.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

The problem with expecting that from SE is you have people who like the foundation of this game's combat as-is. In the worst case, them overhauling combat in such a way would make it significantly worse too.

---

The combat system would be exactly the same (Except for MNK during perfect balance).
If you're a DRG, your GCD rotation should be : True Thrust - Disembowel - Chaos Thrust - Wheeling Thrust - Fang and Claw - Raiden Thrust - Vorpal Thrust - Full Thrust - Fang And Claw - Wheeling Thrust.
Wether this rotation is 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-5-4 or 1-1-1-2-3-4-4-4-3-2 or 1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2-1 is irrelevant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If it takes up a button, it should represent a separate decision or separately tracked cooldown. If it does neither, it does not deserve to be forced upon us as a separate button.

---

The basis of having things on a separate button is to differentiate between people who have the ability to hit the appropriate button at the appropriate time and those that don't. It also gives people a goal to attain, another challenge to overcome as they constantly drive for that "perfect" execution. If you remove the fail state from video games, then you remove the fun from video games. A huge part of the satisfaction from a job comes in performing it correctly, hitting stuff at the right times, both cooldowns and your combo. If I clip my GCD's on E3S then I end up missing Solid Barrel on my GNB right before the first Maelstrom, but if I do it right I'm able to sneak that last Solid Barrel in and come out with a cartridge primed and ready to go into Renzokuken as soon as Levi gets back.

It's a simple thing, but it's a good thing. Nailing my GCD's and oGCD's just right gives me a satisfaction that I wouldn't get otherwise, and having the implied fail-state of dropping my combo means I feel a sense of accomplishment by performing correctly. Having a one-button-does-all approach removes (or drastically increases the margin for error of) the fail-state. If you can't lose in a video game, both on a micro level and a macro level, then the game ceases to be fun as there is no longer a sense of having "earned" a victory.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quor

The basis of having things on a separate button is to differentiate between people who have the ability to hit the appropriate button at the appropriate time and those that don't. It also gives people a goal to attain, another challenge to overcome as they constantly drive for that "perfect" execution. If you remove the fail state from video games, then you remove the fun from video games. A huge part of the satisfaction from a job comes in performing it correctly, hitting stuff at the right times, both cooldowns and your combo. If I clip my GCD's on E3S then I end up missing Solid Barrel on my GNB right before the first Maelstrom, but if I do it right I'm able to sneak that last Solid Barrel in and come out with a cartridge primed and ready to go into Renzokuken as soon as Levi gets back.

It's a simple thing, but it's a good thing. Nailing my GCD's and oGCD's just right gives me a satisfaction that I wouldn't get otherwise, and having the implied fail-state of dropping my combo means I feel a sense of accomplishment by performing correctly. Having a one-button-does-all approach removes (or drastically increases the margin for error of) the fail-state. If you can't lose in a video game, both on a micro level and a macro level, then the game ceases to be fun as there is no longer a sense of having "earned" a victory.

---

And how long has it been since you hit the wrong button in a combo by mistake? A year? Three years? Let's leave out events that are less about your personal difficulty than whether your cat decided to jump on your desk.

And how long did it take you since adding a button to your rotation to make no mistakes in regard to pressing the newly extended combo correctly every time? At most an hour? And maybe five minutes more the next time you played?

Those fail checks are absolutely inconsequential to anyone beyond the bottom 25%, if not the bottom 10, and if the ability to accidentally hit one button over is all that separates you from them (1) you can still hit the wrong button just as easily as before, just on a more distinct ability, and (2) you probably shouldn't consider yourself an authority on difficulty.

Again, I probably wouldn't use the consolidation myself except on a few skills, because it's honestly easier to have my fingers trace out the timing for me. I know precisely when my Higanbana is going to need to be refreshed not because of the target debuffs but because my fingers have made n laps around my combos. But, I'm not going to insist that others don't even have the option of saving some button-space just so I can continue making the game easier for myself in that fashion.

There is literally only two fears here worth considering: that there will eventually be no space for the difficulty-free yet nonetheless enjoyable "rhythm of keys", having taken up its space instead with too many varied tactical tools, and that those new means of skill-gap may make the game too hard for a number of players (at least unless coupled with in-game support such as better ways of teaching how to actually play well). If the prior is your position, I understand it, but do not try to convince me that the system as it stands protects difficulty or skill-gap. It doesn't. It quite frankly makes the experience easier for anyone who's spent any time on their jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quor

It's a simple thing, but it's a good thing. Nailing my GCD's and oGCD's just right gives me a satisfaction that I wouldn't get otherwise

---

I'm pretty sure you would get more satisfaction if you manage to juggle between more skills than you have now thanks to the new free slots.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

I'm pretty sure you would get more satisfaction if you manage to juggle between more skills than you have now thanks to the new free slots.

---

Or, if favoring the "whatever I have now is better than anything I could ever get and should be protected at all costs" conservative take -- perhaps it would give you more satisfaction to have access to the same abilities you enjoyed before, rather than losing some tenth of them with each further expansion, than hitting the exact same buttons to activate what would then be fewer of those abilities?

You don't get both. The devs are quite fixed on the idea that there is, or at least should be, some rough cap to the number of keys we can use. They also feel obliged to give us X number of new skills per expansion, even if those new skills are not particularly attractive individually. So, which are you going to drop for those new skills, no matter how lackluster they may be by comparison? Abilities? Or bloat buttons?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And how long has it been since you hit the wrong button in a combo by mistake? A year? Three years? Let's leave out events that are less about your personal difficulty than whether your cat decided to jump on your desk.

---

Three days ago, during Black Smokers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

There is literally only two fears here worth considering: that there will eventually be no space for the difficulty-free yet nonetheless enjoyable "rhythm of keys", having taken up its space instead with too many varied tactical tools, and that those new means of skill-gap may make the game too hard for a number of players (at least unless coupled with in-game support such as better ways of teaching how to actually play well). If the prior is your position, I understand it, but do not try to convince me that the system as it stands protects difficulty or skill-gap. It doesn't. It quite frankly makes the experience easier for anyone who's spent any time on their jobs.

---

Of course it preserves difficulty. If Renzokuken becomes a single button you have halved the number of unique inputs necessary to correctly perform it. It would be akin to taking NIN Mudra's and instead of splitting them into Ten/Chi/Jin and Mudra buttons, you just have "Hyoton" or "Suiton" or "Doton" buttons that execute them for you. Having them as Ten/Chi/Jin both increases the skill necessary to perform them correctly while also cutting down on button bloat (since w/o T/C/J as unique skills to combine, you'd end up with 7 unique buttons to push instead of the 4 we get with T/C/J plus Mudra). But there is a fail-state in T/C/J usage, in that using too many or not enough will result in failure or a different Mudra than the one the NIN wants. Thus, when you pull it off correctly, you feel good because you've overcome a job challenge that now allows access to a powerful skill. Certainly better than if you just pushed a single button on cooldown.

On it's own, the Renzokuken combo isn't much different than any other 1-2-3 combo out there, but taken in the context of other stuff a tank is expected to do, it's fine as it is. Furthermore, even if the combo was consolidated down to a single button, this is another two buttons that may or may not be filled. You certainly can't add more damage to GNB because they're fine where they are now, and while their mitigation and utility may not be the best out of the tanks, it's certainly not lacking. So in other words, this change would do nothing but lower what little skill ceiling currently exists for tanks. Ironic, considering the calls in other threads for more "engagement" and "complexity" to be added for tanks, while this thread is specifically asking for a job to have some complexity shaved off.

Here's where I come from - personally speaking - when talking about many of the "issues" brought up on these forums.

1 - tank balance is the best and tightest it's ever been since ever
2 - any change to any part of a tank will disrupt this balance somewhat
3 - an argument can be made that tanks are not as engaging as they could be (or once were) due in large part to the overarching design of certain tank aspects (emnity being the most obvious) as well as the current state of encounter design
4 - arguing for increased tank engagement/complexity isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as:
5 - it respects the fact that balance between the tanks is rock solid as it stands now

Hence, any suggestion I see gets filtered through these criteria. I find it hard to square the circle of people complaining about a lack of tank complexity also advocating for a tank to be made less complex. Yes, there are accompanying suggestions of how skill consolidation will allow for "other" stuff to be added, but this - in the case of GNB especially - runs the risk of taking that delicate balance we have achieved and throwing it out the window. You can't add more damage to GNB without making it clearly stronger than the other tanks, and you can't add more utility/mitigation to GNB without making it clearly strong than the other tanks. Thus, consolidation of skills does nothing but lower the complexity of playing GNB for no other reason than to make it less complex. There is nothing that could be added in to replace said complexity to keep GNB at the same level, or improve it, because to do so would throw tank balance out of whack.

Of course, you could add stuff to the other tanks, but now we're no longer talking about "consolidating" a single combo on one tank and instead have opened up the entire can of worms that is intra-role balance. This is made doubly complicated by the fact that development resources are finite. We can all agree that GNB is in a pretty great spot right now. DRK and WAR are in far more (relative) need of help than GNB or PLD. Not to say GNB and PLD are perfect, but with the points above in mind, it would be better to focus energy where needed.

you don't need a excesive amount of skills to archive complexity, beside is counterproductive since Devs politics has been doing exactly the contrary by promoting simplicity each expansion, increase the number of skill by promoting a spaming nature on all jobs it's not good, not everyone like spam the same buttom several seconds in a row, this is not a game where the GCD is fast and make consolidation not so tedious, we are talking about 6-10s of spaming the same button with the casual oGCD we are already use and we can't have a excesive amount of oGCD bcs we have to use our devensive skills without cliping if all of you forgeth, are you anyone think about that? or consider that won't be apreciated for some?.

at the end of the day make space for more skills by that way will have a limit, you can't just add more and more, it will be a time they have to start removing and sustitute skills for new ones again, the dev team has show they can archive really nice complexity with a few buttoms with the current combo system, god we have DRK on heavensward remember?.
we have further useles skills like the stuns and the silences that are barely used and are very situational, we have the new anti knocback that practically invalidate the charge changes of this expansion on literaly 99% of the content, we have to much defensive skills, we can even remove the invul since how abusive are and how trivialice the few combat mechanics we have to manage, heck with the buff of provoke they could buff it even more and remove shirk, thats a lot of space.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quor

It would be akin to taking NIN Mudra's and instead of splitting them into Ten/Chi/Jin and Mudra buttons, you just have "Hyoton" or "Suiton" or "Doton" buttons that execute them for you.

---

It's completely different. The skill in using Mudras is weaving them into your rotation, so you had to think and act fast. Finishing your combo don't require any decision making and is not fast. The skill in performing rotation is keeping uptime and knowing what to weave between them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quor

I find it hard to square the circle of people complaining about a lack of tank complexity also advocating for a tank to be made less complex.

---

We're not. Imagine I save two slots as a DRK by consolidating SoulEater into one combo. Now, I can have a Power Slash combo on one of those slot, let's say, to apply a speed buff, and bring back Scourge on the other slot. Now, I have two more things to maintain in my rotation, making DRK more complex.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quor

I find it hard to square the circle of people complaining about a lack of tank complexity also advocating for a tank to be made less complex.

---

Allowing for the consolidation of a single bonus combo, reducing the tank to the same 4 buttons (not skills) of PLD and WAR, does not reduce its complexity in any way. Gnashing Fang, Goring Blade, and Storm's Eye are already differed almost only in how they each interact with their damage CDs, PLD and GNB per minute and WAR per 90 seconds. Gnashing Fang is technically the least complex of the three because it can be woven in at any time where Storm's Eye and Goring Blade cannot. Instead of any manner of compromise, you simply continue to spam 123 and then remember not to hit Burst Strike if Gnashing Fang will soon come up before overcapping. Its sole claim to complexity is via a particular SkS capable of readying Solid Barrel before the nth No Mercy - Bloodfest sync. The rest is the exact same 123 you have on every tank, just shifted over to 456; that's not complexity. It's basic motor function that, in this case, literally cannot be failed. You've harped on about fail checks. This has no fail check. You cannot hit 6 without having first hit 5, nor 5 without having first hit 4.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quor

Yes, there are accompanying suggestions of how skill consolidation will allow for "other" stuff to be added, but this runs the risk of taking that delicate balance we have achieved and throwing it out the window.

---

The reason there is simple: balance is easy when every mechanic (exempting non-mechanics like Darkside, which likewise have effectively no failchecks) is either shared by 75% of the role, has merely excused imbalance due to its infrequency (e.g. Living Dead) or is an inconsequential flavor variant.

When you actually make 4 tanks instead of 4 skins of a single tank, yes, balance gets harder.

That doesn't mean it isn't worth it. We should be able to expect more than just either a modicum of real gameplay difference OR balance.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

tl;dr: If literal hand movement alone is enough complexity for you to pride yourself over, and worth more to you than any of the possible things you could otherwise spend that space on, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

It's completely different. The skill in using Mudras is weaving them into your rotation, so you had to think and act fast. Finishing your combo don't require any decision making and is not fast. The skill in performing rotation is keeping uptime and knowing what to weave between them.

---

Which is exactly the skill needed for Renzokuken; you have a limited time frame (one GCD) in which to use Cont., and maybe another oGCD, before you can use the next GCD. You certainly don't want to miss out on using a Cont. ability, as the average raw potency from those oGCD's is almost as much as GNB's average ppGCD on their main combo, so dropping one is a significant damage loss. But you also don't want to delay your GCD, which has the side effect of making each step of Renzokuken feel sort of like a mini-Mudra. Sometimes you'll double-weave during Renzokuken, and knowing when and how to weave stuff while maintaining rotation uptime is what separates the good from the great.

Quote:

---

We're not. Imagine I save two slots as a DRK by consolidating SoulEater into one combo. Now, I can have a Power Slash combo on one of those slot, let's say, to apply a speed buff, and bring back Scourge on the other slot. Now, I have two more things to maintain in my rotation, making DRK more complex.

---

You're not wrong, but again, keep in mind the balance of the tanks. Yes, I'd love for DRK to have some kind of haste buff back, and if it's on the PS animation then mores the better (I mention this in the relevant DRK thread). But I'm also concerned about how that would affect not just DRK but tanks in general. DRK has it's problems now, sure, but it's not terrible. It's boring, with most of it's challenge wrapped up in MP management (not a bad thing per se) and TBN usage (also not bad) but at the cost of some sorely lacking rotational value. Managing a DoT or juggling a haste buff alongside Darkside would be a joy, but I have yet to see any kind of compromise suggestion to account for the clear fact that this would be a damage buff to DRK. I also don't see most DRK's just shrugging and being happy with having to do an extra few steps to get the same damage they had prior to the addition of new skills. Increased complexity necessitates an increased reward, and in this case that reward would have to be more damage. It's hard to justify boosting DRK's damage when it clearly has the best overall mitigation suite out of the tanks right now, on top of still throwing out respectable numbers.

So again, while I'm not against the idea itself, I have yet to see anyone address the other half of the equation. It's all just "let's add cool stuff" and never with any accompanying understanding of how to maintain balance between the tanks, either via changes to DRK itself or something for the other tanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

tl;dr: If literal hand movement alone is enough complexity for you to pride yourself over, and worth more to you than any of the possible things you could otherwise spend that space on, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

---

Isn't that what all of this is? Pushing buttons in the right order at the right times? Distilled down to it's most basic form, that's the entirety of this game, and really any video game. Take the most badass looking DMC5 boss rush you can think of, or the craziest Super Meat Boy speedrun, and it's all just hand movement, entering the right commands at the right time. That sells it terribly short of course, but you get the gist. Of course, we all know the devil is in the details, so it's disingenuous to say that it comes down to hand movement "alone."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quor

Which is exactly the skill needed for Renzokuken; you have a limited time frame (one GCD) in which to use Cont., and maybe another oGCD, before you can use the next GCD.

---

Yes, but no one asked for Renzokuken to be different. What you describe would be the same wherever the "next GCD" is placed of your hotbar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quor

You're not wrong, but again, keep in mind the balance of the tanks. Yes, I'd love for DRK to have some kind of haste buff back, and if it's on the PS animation then mores the better (I mention this in the relevant DRK thread). But I'm also concerned about how that would affect not just DRK but tanks in general.

---

That's the exact same issue when you release a new expansion and add new skills. We don't really expect them to add those skills during ShB lifecycle. But the consolidation part could be done in a patch, since it wouldn't change the rotation at all in the end. And there are other types of consolidation that could be added without disturbing the balance, like Leylines and Between the lines sharing the same slot, since you can't use the later without the former being up, or Enochian/Fire IV/Blizzard IV, etc...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quor

It's hard to justify boosting DRK's damage when it clearly has the best overall mitigation suite out of the tanks right now, on top of still throwing out respectable numbers.

---

Personally, I wouldn't mind doing the exact same respectable damage even if I had to apply scourge every 30s or maintain a speed buff, because it would make the job less boring. They'd just have to reduce some potencies on our GCDs to compensate. But like I said above, consolidating the combos can be enough for now, so that they won't have to remove more skills when the next expansion comes.

In the end, they already started that evolution, with skills replacing other ones under specific procs (DRG, RDM, ...) or the various roleplay duties.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quor

Take the most badass looking DMC5 boss rush you can think of, or the craziest Super Meat Boy speedrun, and it's all just hand movement, entering the right commands at the right time.

---

In DMC, you do a combo with a single Attack button, weaving directions between two inputs. How is that different from comboing with a single slot while weaving oGCD in-between especially in a much-much slower battle sytem ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quor

Isn't that what all of this is? Pushing buttons in the right order at the right times? Distilled down to it's most basic form, that's the entirety of this game, and really any video game. Take the most badass looking DMC5 boss rush you can think of, or the craziest Super Meat Boy speedrun, and it's all just hand movement, entering the right commands at the right time. That sells it terribly short of course, but you get the gist. Of course, we all know the devil is in the details, so it's disingenuous to say that it comes down to hand movement "alone."

---

Not when all concerns except your finger moving from one place to another within the ~1.7 to 2.5 seconds are absolutely negligible.

oGCD order? That takes some determination. Any effect that will not sacrifice a measure of effect greater than its loss to uptime and sync from delay should be used as early as possible. That involves tactics.
AoE abilities? Further determination in fights with add phases. Just look at Dragoon in Deltascape 3S. Capitalizing on Nostrond is huge there. (Btw, you know didn't reduce it's complexity at all there? Consolidating Geirskogul and Nostrond.)

But a fixed combo? That's not complexity unless you're actively making meaningful decisions about whether to move your shoulder, elbow, wrist, or fingers to get from Key 2 to Key 3. Let me be frank -- you're going to have a hard time convincing me those decisions will be meaningful.

In DMC5, there are numerous answers with numerous levels of "correctness" because there are numerous ways to handle any particular fight. Many of those ways, if we ignore common sense and throw random combinations together, are bad. And, theoretically, one may be the best at any given time, but that's a job for Deep AI. The remainder are we actually play towards and around -- the entire point of gameplay.

Combos do not. They have one answer. They ensure that you can, as soon as you start a combo, only viably touch one normal weaponskill. The entire purpose of combos in XIV to reduce complexity, to reduce the number of options available to the player at any given time.

What complexity you find in any given combo are the few times they act least like a combo, and actually allow a branched action for once. Those are the surviving actions, and why Warrior still at least has effectively 5 GCD skills, Fel Cleave(+), Storm's Eye, Storm's Path, Overpower, and Tomahawk, though combos will then promptly lock out all choice for a further 1-2 GCDs at a time in 3 out of those 5 actions.

I think this eventually needs to happen for all combos (including the AE combos) but I am in agreement that it has to happen along with the introduction of additional skills. This means that it isn’t really necessary now, but would heavily advocate for it when the level cap gets bumped to 90. Doing this would open the ability to add more skills without having to massively consolidate or just upgrade current skills like they have been each level cap increase.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ladon

I think this eventually needs to happen for all combos (including the AE combos) but I am in agreement that it has to happen along with the introduction of additional skills. This means that it isn’t really necessary now, but would heavily advocate for it when the level cap gets bumped to 90. Doing this would open the ability to add more skills without having to massively consolidate or just upgrade current skills like they have been each level cap increase.

---

No thank you.
Double weaving will be a nightmare with one button combos, hence why pvp is so poor in oGCDs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nedkel

No thank you.
Double weaving will be a nightmare with one button combos, hence why pvp is so poor in oGCDs.

---

What? This has zero impact on double weaving.

SE can't just force combo consolidation in to the game, there is players that don't like to spam the same buttons for long periods of time (me for example) this will kill the game for them bcs is boring and tedius, if i wanna spam the same button most of the time i play BLM or the healers (poor SCH and AST), this can lead to a lost of customers, if any they can add it as a optional way to play but the game and the future expansion skills are gonna be removed/added/updated acording to the players don't using the consolidated combos for obvious reasons.

the solution is not consolidating combos, it's merely stupid no,it's upgrade current buttons, improve them and evolve it, remove some but adds others that sustitute and get better involved with the kit something they didn't for many jobs this expansion, space is technically no a problem and consolidating buttons wont make anything better but worse all day doing 11a1111b111cd11, 2a222b222c222d2 whatever just a spam fest of GCD, apart can we stop saying this is necesary to get more complexity? we don't need consolidated combos to get complexity and this is not a hardcore MMO they won't add more complexity specially for the DPS.

so can we stop talking about masive combat reworks that we don't need please?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shao32

SE can't just force combo consolidation in to the game, there is players that don't like to spam the same buttons for long periods of time (me for example)

---

Set the same combo on multiple slots, problem solved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shao32

the solution is not consolidating combos, it's merely stupid no, it's upgrade current buttons, improve them and evolve it, remove some but adds others that sustitute and get better involved with the kit something they didn't for many jobs this expansion

---

No, it's not. It's annoying to lose skills, and strategic options, just to save buttons when we could fix button bloat without losing anything. And boring to see the same animations over and over again...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shao32

so can we stop talking about masive combat reworks that we don't need please?

---

This system already exists for PvP and roleplay duties, and wouldn't change anything about skill rotation or balance. In what world would it be a "massive rework" ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shao32

SE can't just force combo consolidation in to the game, there is players that don't like to spam the same buttons for long periods of time (me for example) this will kill the game for them bcs is boring and tedius, if i wanna spam the same button most of the time i play BLM or the healers (poor SCH and AST), this can lead to a lost of customers, if any they can add it as a optional way to play but the game and the future expansion skills are gonna be removed/added/updated acording to the players don't using the consolidated combos for obvious reasons.

the solution is not consolidating combos, it's merely stupid no,it's upgrade current buttons, improve them and evolve it, remove some but adds others that sustitute and get better involved with the kit something they didn't for many jobs this expansion, space is technically no a problem and consolidating buttons wont make anything better but worse all day doing 11a1111b111cd11, 2a222b222c222d2 whatever just a spam fest of GCD, apart can we stop saying this is necesary to get more complexity? we don't need consolidated combos to get complexity and this is not a hardcore MMO they won't add more complexity specially for the DPS.

so can we stop talking about masive combat reworks that we don't need please?

---

Instead of telling people to stop talking about a topic you don't like in a thread dedicated about it, how about you simply ignore the thread?