Can we please ban advertisements for selling clears from PF?

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

I think the fact that you asked 800 or 8.00 was the thing that got you blocked to be honest as I am 100% certain you were not there to legit buy a run at that point, and so were the seller as well...

But no one here doubts they are selling for in game currency. However, SE needs to PROVE it, not by necessity because laws enforces it but because of the horrible PR nightmare it would give them if people came out and told stories about them getting banned despite doing nothing that was a banworthy offense in the game, and could back their claim up with proof while SE could not back their ban up because they don't have access to Discord's chatlogs.

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Which is why If they explicitly prohibit sale of content requiring Discord or other third party chat to disclose prices, it would be irrelevant at that point because they need to discuss their prices in game if they are selling.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Trust me I had a feeling of the idea that it could be faked, no one really knows if I talked to the person (due to forced censoring) or if I made it up with an alt account or a friend.

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I do believe you, please understand that. It's just that we need to accept that this is how things are. If SE put measures in place to stop this kind of behavior then they would do far more harm to legit players than it would to RMT sellers. I have been part of legit clear sellers in the past (for gil and with no account sharing), and that kind of practice is as legit as paying for a crafter's services. They would suffer if restrictions were put in place, people advertising discord servers would suffer, and a whole host of other problems could occur.

The point is that putting down an iron fist is sometimes worse than just leaving things be. These sellers don't harm anyone, and if they do then they do it outside of SEs jurisdiction so theres not a whole lot that can or even should be done about that. Its not that these PFs aren't a problem, or that SEs ToS is a problem, its that wanting a solution to them is worse.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Which is why If they explicitly prohibit sale of content requiring Discord or other third party chat to disclose prices, it would be irrelevant at that point because they need to discuss their prices in game if they are selling.

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Here comes the problem, how would they PROVE that that is what discord is for and not for talking about the run strategies and ensuring you are actually capable of clearing the run before doing business? I would be as happy as anyone to get rid of RMT as I feel like it cheapens in game currency and causes market disruptions. However, I know why SE can't do certain things from a marketing point of view.

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

Here comes the problem, how would they PROVE that that is what discord is for and not for talking about the run strategies and ensuring you are actually capable of clearing the run before doing business? I would be as happy as anyone to get rid of RMT as I feel like it cheapens in game currency and causes market disruptions. However, I know why SE can't do certain things from a marketing point of view.

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Because that stuff can be talked about in game. The only reason to talk about things outside of the game is to avoid it being logged in chat. They won't even talk to you in game, they say discord or get lost. That's a huge flag.

Wether or not it’s a TOS violation to sell runs of content, it should be to list them in party finder. That tool is meant for social purposes and this kind if content is just profiteering spam cluttering up the interface. Let the form linkshells or something.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Because that stuff can be talked about in game. The only reason to talk about things outside of the game is to avoid it being logged in chat. They won't even talk to you in game, they say discord or get lost. That's a huge flag.

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They might want to talk about it in voice chat to be 100% sure the person know and guide them through the fight live. It is a huge flag, but nothing that is by any means enough to be conclusive grounds to ban someone upon unless they want a /vg/ thread like "SE banned me for no reason at all for carrying for Gil" and having the entire video game press jump on the train within hours as news like those are juicy.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

Wether or not it’s a TOS violation to sell runs of content, it should be to list them in party finder. That tool is meant for social purposes and this kind if content is just profiteering spam cluttering up the interface. Let the form linkshells or something.

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Depends, those people putting it on daily roulette should 100% be hit by a ban hammer, but if you properly put it into high-end content for savage, then it is 100% fine. It is a social purpose, despite being one that nets them gil.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

Wether or not it’s a TOS violation to sell runs of content, it should be to list them in party finder. That tool is meant for social purposes and this kind if content is just profiteering spam cluttering up the interface. Let the form linkshells or something.

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Actually the PF is for whatever people want to use it for. Selling items, running dungeons, advertising FCs, or forming a lalafell army, its up to the individual player what they want to advertise in the PF. Who are you to tell other players what they can or can't advertise?

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

Here comes the problem, how would they PROVE that that is what discord is for and not for talking about the run strategies and ensuring you are actually capable of clearing the run before doing business? I would be as happy as anyone to get rid of RMT as I feel like it cheapens in game currency and causes market disruptions. However, I know why SE can't do certain things from a marketing point of view.

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They don’t have to, requiring sale listing to discuss prices in game protects both seller and buyer, not to mention the obvious RMT avoidance. If a sale goes south they can then call a GM if someone doesn’t get paid, it’s a win win, well for legitimate players that is.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

They don’t have to, requiring sale listing to discuss prices in game protects both seller and buyer, not to mention the obvious RMT avoidance. If a sale goes south they can then call a GM if someone doesn’t get paid, it’s a win win, well for legitimate players that is.

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SE has to prove this unless they want extremely bad press. Can you imagine the outrage if someone claimed "I got banned for no reason at all" and SE had no grounds to refute those claims when there are already very sour faces about people getting banned for openly talking about using third party tools which are forbidden by ToS.

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Thats a dangerous precident to set. Nothing about asking to talk on discord is directly incriminating. There are many reasons why a player may do this,

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I prefer talking on discord than in game, especially if its someone ive never met before.

Squeenix and the 14 community have fostered an environment where speaking as little in the game about game related things is preferable.

Also, until they can give us fully customizable chat windows (that dont cap at 4...), I'll do all my crafting stuff through discord and NOT in game (outside telling people to send me their housing item needs somewhere other than game), because holy crap please make the chat system not strictly less usable than 20 year old MMO's, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Actually the PF is for whatever people want to use it for. Selling items, running dungeons, advertising FCs, or forming a lalafell army, its up to the individual player what they want to advertise in the PF. Who are you to tell other players what they can or can't advertise?

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There are specific checkboxes to check when listing a party and none of them are give me money nor any of your other ideas. It’s actually pretty clear from the list if things that can be checked exactly what the PF is for.

in my opinion, any static recruitments or clear selling adds in the roulette tab should be reportable as spam no matter what.

Also I did read on, well, /v/ a while ago that GMs actually will accept discord screenshots now under the new ToS, given that their ID was listed in PF and can be seen on the screenshot. AND I recall that RMT is against the Discord ToS as well, so sellers can be reported there as well

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

They don’t have to, requiring sale listing to discuss prices in game protects both seller and buyer, not to mention the obvious RMT avoidance. If a sale goes south they can then call a GM if someone doesn’t get paid, it’s a win win, well for legitimate players that is.

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That's why the rules regarding sales for real money are what they are. It's an unnecessary hassle for SE to deal with potential scams involving real money. By keeping specifics out of the game, SE can feign ignorance and look the other way.

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

SE has to prove this unless they want extremely bad press. Can you imagine the outrage if someone claimed "I got banned for no reason at all" and SE had no grounds to refute those claims when there are already very sour faces about people getting banned for openly talking about using third party tools which are forbidden by ToS.

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Prohibitions in Final Fantasy XIV

"Square Enix reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to (i) determine which activities are prohibited or violate Square Enix’s policies or terms of use, (ii) enforce such policies and terms of use, and (iii) revise this list.

Square Enix’s privacy policies may prevent Square Enix from disclosing information about investigations or disciplinary action Square Enix may have taken against players engaged in prohibited activities."

It's about want, not can't.

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

SE has to prove this unless they want extremely bad press. Can you imagine the outrage if someone claimed "I got banned for no reason at all" and SE had no grounds to refute those claims when there are already very sour faces about people getting banned for openly talking about using third party tools which are forbidden by ToS.

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people have gotten banned for cursing, they don’t get “extremely bad press” for that nor would they for this

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

people have gotten banned for cursing, they don’t get “extremely bad press” for that nor would they for this

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Because it IS mentioned in the rules that it is forbidden and it is followed up on consequently and people can understand why they want no excessive swearing and, most importantly in the case of this discussion, it can be proven by SE. The problem isn't forbidding people recruiting for RMT runs, but how they are supposed to actually prove they did it. This is why press does not care about the 9001 posts per week about how "unfairly" people have gotten banned for dropping F bombs and slurs left and right as it is hardly news that people get banned for breaking the rules in an MMORPG.

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

Because it IS mentioned in the rules that it is forbidden and it is followed up on consequently and people can understand why they want no excessive swearing and, most importantly in the case of this discussion, it can be proven by SE. The problem isn't forbidding people recruiting for RMT runs, but how they are supposed to actually prove they did it. This is why press does not care about the 9001 posts per week about how "unfairly" people have gotten banned for dropping F bombs and slurs left and right as it is hardly news that people get banned for breaking the rules in an MMORPG.

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If something is changed the rules would be change, no one is saying start banning people without changing the rules.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

If something is changed the rules would be change, no one is saying start banning people without changing the rules.

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Did you miss the it can be proven part? I even highlighted that part. How can they succeed with either of these:

a) If they make a rule about that it is against ToS to advertise RMT activity (which there already is mind you) prove that by asking for people to speak to someone on discord about a run they want to buy had the intention to have it as an RMT run, or even just prove that it was in fact them they spoke to? Anyone can easily fake a picture of someone asking them for cash for a run on discord.

b) Make a rule that covers this exact specific thing in such a manner that they would not need proof of what activity went on on the discord linked WITHOUT causing disruption/bans for people who does nothing that any sane person would consider wrong (such as for example having an FC discord).

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

Did you miss the it can be proven part? I even highlighted that part. How can they succeed with either of these:

a) If they make a rule about that it is against ToS to advertise RMT activity (which there already is mind you) prove that by asking for people to speak to someone on discord about a run they want to buy had the intention to have it as an RMT run, or even just prove that it was in fact them they spoke to? Anyone can easily fake a picture of someone asking them for cash for a run on discord.

b) Make a rule that covers this exact specific thing in such a manner that they would not need proof of what activity went on on the discord linked WITHOUT causing disruption/bans for people who does nothing that any sane person would consider wrong (such as for example having an FC discord).

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Again proof is not needed, they can say it’s for the protection of the buyer and seller to have the transaction discussed in game to prevent fraud.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Well for those wishing to know. I decided to ask one "Ask for details in Discord" here is the result. Green is me, not sure if name shaming counts so to be safe censored it.
https://i.imgur.com/kcPlhA1.png

They blocked me as soon as I said too much. Just to make it 100% clear, I have never bought a clear nor plan too, simply asking for the sake of information.

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https://media.tenor.com/images/0aa59...94a4/tenor.gif
Was this for real?
They must be out their flippin' minds selling content like that for $800.
I wonder if people really drop $100+ on clears like that.
Imagine paying the game, to pay someone else to play for you.
Wow. I mean, you can do whatever you want with your money
but I'ma be silently judging in the corner. I hate to be that one but
to those people paying these prices...
http://i.imgur.com/DxHKHUp.png

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

What Kaeden said is absolutely correct.

The ingame economy supports players exchanging goods and services. Buying a clear from a player is no different than buying an item from them, or paying them to overmeld your gear. It's how the gil is obtained that is the biggest point of contention, and the RMT argument is completely separate from the "buying clears" argument.

Whether that makes it fair or right that players should be allowed to be carried through content is a reasonable debate, but as far as terms of service goes, its perfectly valid, and will never be banned.

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The sellers do charge real money for clears. If you notice none of the seller PFs ever state a price or even a currency. They typically only link Discord usernames, so that discussions about the sale can take place in an area outside of the game.

There have been a lot of links between people in PF and usernames in their PFs to even websites advertising RMT activities or services. Some of them from very reputable and respected raiding FCs even.

Nothing will ever be done about it unless SE forbids clear selling on PF, but until then, people will continue to use it as a form of RMT directly in everyone's face.

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Originally Posted by Gula

While I know nothing can be done, what I don't like is how clogged PF is with people miscategorizing with roulette. Especially when I want to use it legitimately.



Would be nice if they put their ads in the proper category for one.

https://i.imgur.com/ehM2GFY.png

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You know the Icon right next to PvP is actually for payed kills lol - but ppl dont use it cause they gotta spam at the Ex roulett or smt - imo that should be reportable, its spam and most killsells surely are... fishy at best. Everything that demands contact outside the game, sets 999 ilvl and sells the most current savage part and all that corssworld as well is super suspicious.

And i checked one of those sites, they rly charge this much and ppl rly seem to buy it, they even sell the 450 crafted gear... its just no.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Again proof is not needed, they can say it’s for the protection of the buyer and seller to have the transaction discussed in game to prevent fraud.

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Yes, because SE randomly banning people for literally no fault is gonna go so well. This argument is going in a circle because you don't seem to grasp the simple concept that just because they theoretically CAN ban every single person without any reason behind it it is not a good way to go about it if they want their customers to have any trust in them at all.

Had actually added this person first, like 8am. Didn't accept till about noon yet the PF kept refreshing for 2 hours after. This person was friendly enough to list the full prices, other person may have but I didn't ask for a break down. Just woke up and was hoping to keep pictures together but ah well, no sense letting the info go to waste. If these people actually get buyers, no wonder. Almost tempting enough to quit my job and do this for a living.

https://i.imgur.com/2rIzE6a.png

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

Yes, because SE randomly banning people for literally no fault is gonna go so well. This argument is going in a circle because you don't seem to grasp the simple concept that just because they theoretically CAN ban every single person without any reason behind it it is not a good way to go about it if they want their customers to have any trust in them at all.

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Well not what I’m saying but keep defending RMT and PF spam.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Well not what I’m saying but keep defending RMT and PF spam.

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I am not defending RMT, I am just trying to point out why this is not as easy a problem to solve as you and a lot of people seem to think it is without innocent accounts getting banned for no reason at all. I have also already stated that whenever they post it in the wrong place (i.e. duty roulette) this SHOULD net a ban imo so it is posted in the proper place and is an easily provable offense.

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

I am not defending RMT, I am just trying to point out why this is not as easy a problem to solve as you and a lot of people seem to think it is without innocent accounts getting banned for no reason at all. I have also already stated that whenever they post it in the wrong place (i.e. duty roulette) this SHOULD net a ban imo so it is posted in the proper place and is an easily provable offense.

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How many “innocent accounts” are on PF selling clears saying they need to discuss payment terms on discord?

And I’m glad you are against the PF mislistings but can you please tone it down a little and not take what I’m saying to some extreme conclusion?

That would make the Ultimates what, 60 mil each?

Quite the coincidence that the rate they use for gil is about the same as what gil goes for online. It's almost like they'll sell the gil.

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Quite the coincidence that the rate they use for gil is about the same as what gil goes for online. It's almost like they'll sell the gil.

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I miss selling spell runes in EQ.

It paid for 3 years of school.

Then Yantis, China, and the like happened, and that was the end of profitability in currency sales.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

You aren't going to like the answer, but it all comes down to... Can you prove it?

If you can't its basically assumption and slander, which isn't grounds for a report. Yeah, you are probably right, but if it takes place off of the game, and you cannot see transcripts of conversations talking about real money trading and account sharing then it has no weight in the argument.

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You realize SE does not accept screenshots or any outside source except what's stated in game, so burden of proof is an impossibility if the seller isn't an idiot. SE has made the burden of proof impossible, yet I can't say that cancel xyz is a good idea either. Until ToS changes and proof limitation is expanded, then I guess we just have to hope people aren't dumb enough to dump money on these scammers. Bluntly, saying to add on discord and the conversation 'ending' on FFXIV is more than enough proof since if it was gil only, there would be no reason to hide anything.

All those content sellers just pollute the Party Finder and it makes me uncomfortable, all of them should be banned permanently.


SE just needs to make a new rule that forbids selling content unless the price in Gil is clearly written in the description, that would silence those excusing themselves hiding their RMT business outside of the game, like Discord or any other external means.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Had actually added this person first, like 8am. Didn't accept till about noon yet the PF kept refreshing for 2 hours after. This person was friendly enough to list the full prices, other person may have but I didn't ask for a break down. Just woke up and was hoping to keep pictures together but ah well, no sense letting the info go to waste. If these people actually get buyers, no wonder. Almost tempting enough to quit my job and do this for a living.

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And here I am working a 9-5. Looks like it's time to learn min maxing.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

If you mean they are paying real money, then yes, that's already a bannable offense. If you see an ad for clear for real money, you can report that player.

If you're talking about gil, then there's nothing against the rules about that. If that's how people want to spend their gil, then that's their choice.

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I agree with you. That being said, I agree with the OP as well. There is an "Other" category for a reason. What we need is an "Advert" topic or better yet an "Advertisement" filter choice for the PF. There is a place for advertisements in the PF. But since more and more we see not only people "Selling Clears" but 90% of the Eden category is people either looking for a static or players looking for people for their static. The PF should have a way for us to filter these out easily and for us to find that Eden group that is set to run within the next 30minutes and not ones you are applying to for the future.

Since they are literal advertisements, would it be a bad idea to put a category or something for selling runs and all that jazz on the market board? Implement it in some way? I dunno.

Edit: I just thought about it. It's less convenient. Never mind.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Had actually added this person first, like 8am. Didn't accept till about noon yet the PF kept refreshing for 2 hours after. This person was friendly enough to list the full prices, other person may have but I didn't ask for a break down. Just woke up and was hoping to keep pictures together but ah well, no sense letting the info go to waste. If these people actually get buyers, no wonder. Almost tempting enough to quit my job and do this for a living.

https://i.imgur.com/2rIzE6a.png

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It's honestly pathetic that people are willing to shell out that much money just for one clear of content.

I guess false prestige means a lot more to some then I would've ever guessed.

Just let bannable the ads asking to contact outside the game (as discord or other third party social). If you really are selling for Gil you haven't nothing to worry making the deal using a SE-LOGGED channel.

Just wanted to pop back in and say I completely agree with making adverts that say "discuss terms on Discord, etc" a bannable offense. Of course, that wouldn't stop them, unfortunately. They could agree to a gil price in-game, and then just agree to a real money price on Discord after the fact.

can we pls ban bad players from PF? :)

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Originally Posted by Campi

can we pls ban bad players from PF? :)

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Can we please just ban players?

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Originally Posted by Enjuden

You realize SE does not accept screenshots or any outside source except what's stated in game, so burden of proof is an impossibility if the seller isn't an idiot. SE has made the burden of proof impossible, yet I can't say that cancel xyz is a good idea either. Until ToS changes and proof limitation is expanded, then I guess we just have to hope people aren't dumb enough to dump money on these scammers. Bluntly, saying to add on discord and the conversation 'ending' on FFXIV is more than enough proof since if it was gil only, there would be no reason to hide anything.

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A ToS change would be horrible because it would allow people to fake evidence and get innocent people banned. There is a reason why SE is so tight on their evidence policy, and it is because they only accept evidence that they themselves can verify as truthful within the resources that they have. I would much rather a ToS that allows people to post RMT in PF than one that allows malicious people to get whoever they want banned with fake evidence.

Since ToS, Discord, and other stuff is kind of fickle as far as clear selling outside of gil is concerned, I do have a suggestion in this following link: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...OL-stuff-on-PF