We need an ilvl/gear requirement for leveling dungeons

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

See, that is an assumption that players leveling through the MSQ are doing dailies ... a mistaken assumption.

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I’m not talking about players lvling through MSQ I’m talking about people that have multiple jobs at max lvl.
If someone is taking their first job though they will have gear given to them by the story quests

Something needs to be done to solve this. I just had a leveling roulette the other morning that was not even worth the effort by the time we finished due many different issues, but one glaring obvious issue was ilvl 355 gear on the healer in the lvl 73 leveling dungeon. I won't go into more detail as it would better suited to the tales from the df thread, but suffice it to say it was a very unpleasant. I will give credit to the healer for at least trying very hard with the gear handicap and derpy tank who should have clued in. Situational Awareness is severely lacking among the player base.

If it's the first class they're leveling, they get tons of gear through the MSQ. Even ignoring all side quests, they get items for most slots and in HW and later even HQ.
In addition to that, they get guaranteed drops in leveling dungeons in HW and later with most of them being part of the MSQ and therefore mandatory.

If it's their 2nd+ class they're leveling, they already have a decent amount of tomes of all types by just doing mandatory MSQ 50/60/70 dungeons & trials. Not enough for a full set but enough to buy good gear for some slots that will last several levels. Nobody has 0 tomestones after hitting 80 with their first class.
For <50, GC gear is quite good and when reaching 80 wirst the first class, most people are already drowning in GC seals even when constantly doing ventures on all retainers.

If some slots are still outdated: vendors and market boards exist, they get pointed in their direction as early as lv 5. Even without selling anything on the market board, you have enough money to buy things for the most outdated slots.
A lot of stuff is incredibly cheap (even cheaper than vendor) at the mb.

If someone felt the need to put every single gil into glamours, housing etc., that's on them.
Same with tomestones, if someone bought random stuff with it instead of something useful, that's on them. Don't know what to with tomestones? Ask.
It's not other people's responsibility to carry you because you made poor decisions.

There is no excuse to have some slots not even equiped or only with severly outdated gear.

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Originally Posted by Limonia

I mean, I went into Bardam's Mettle with 270 gear because I didn't expect it in the roulette (I forgot I had barely leveled up up 65). But that was at least 270. And not 160 NQ. I healed ilvl 260-270 tanks in Castrum Abania, and they melted. But that gear wasn't completely useless at least. But ilvl 110 NQ tank gear on a DPS is.

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Ilvl 270 is perfect for Bardam. It's the same level as the loot from the previous dungeon.

But I agree there should be a minimum requirement, something like 15 ilvl lower than the loot from chests. The devs are overly concerned about the "problems" that this would create. Having to get adequate gear in an MMORPG is not a problem, it's a feature.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Ilvl 270 is perfect for Bardam. It's the same level as the loot from the previous dungeon.

But I agree there should be a minimum requirement, something like 15 ilvl lower than the loot from chests. The devs are overly concerned about the "problems" that this would create. Having to get adequate gear in an MMORPG is not a problem, it's a feature.

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Yeah I think 15 below would be perfect

Yeah I'm tired of getting people coming into dungeons with a huge ilvl difference (had a tank in Sirensong Sea with ilvl 200 gear and 150 accessories), if their plan isn't to gate people then what's their plan? I don't see the issue in gating ilvl with giving suitable rewards while doing so, this makes it so the new people get their ilvl 260 gear while going through the latter half of HW or just give it as a reward coffer after a certain part of the MSQ.

As for the people leveling alts they're just lazy it's so easy to get poetics hell I find myself capped every 2 days just from doing roulette's not even counting MSQ roulette which would give you another 300 poetics with a chance at new bonus. People need to start kicking people from groups that come undergeared, I did so myself when I got a Don Mheg with a healer that had a Shire AST weapon and Shire rings right side with an ilvl 200 belt they had WHM and SCH both at 80 I don't get it.

On this note they also need a different naming scheme for the 230/260 and 360/390 tome gear, I’ve seen people running around with the lower I lvl gear when they could have the higher for the same exact amount of tomes. I don’t think listing it as I and II is helping, maybe label the I as glamor gear or something instead.

So, on the one hand, I generally agree. I had a Dohn Mheg run where both DPS were doing ~3500 each on AoE pulls. I've had tissue paper tanks. There's a point at which encounters become mathematically impossible if people aren't geared, and rather tedious even if it IS possible.

On the other hand, I did this (being undergeared) recently. I got SCH to 61 after leveling and 50/60 dungeon roulette, went to buy shire gear, and found I only had enough for aug. weapon, normal chest, and normal legs. I had spent the bulk of my poetics recently on getting DRK full aug. shire, and I don't do full roulette daily anymore because I find the content boring. I really, really didn't want to go do MSQ3K: Errands With Cid Roulette or any of the other braindead poetics granting content. I had ~220 ilvl for SCH, some leftover HQ food and Infusions, and am pretty confident in my skill as a healer.

So I queued into Sirensong with the musty AF2 armor people have been mentioning in this thread. The tank went full tilt. And I healed it, no deaths except one DPS who got 9 stacks of vuln. on Governor (I even rescued them out of it the first time). Had to actually pop infusions to heal some of the spicier pulls, had to use Dissipation way more than is likely normal, had to hold back my gag reflex when I had to spam physick to keep the tank up, didn't DPS nearly as much as I could have properly geared. But I did it, and honestly it was fun to actually be challenged to heal outside of Savage prog/awful party members. I made the run go slower, but I find it hard to regret an experience that I feel validated my assessment of my own skill.

So while I think there needs to be a limit, I don't think it needs to be too high. In fact, I'm also of the opinion that max ilvl for dungeons needs to be lower, for both leveling and endgame. The level of faceroll that most content in this game is up to current patch contributes to bad habits in the playerbase, and actually requiring some degree of competent play by disallowing gross overgearing would help. Make people do mechanics in leveling dungeons FFS.

If you want to run content at min ilvl for the challenge, that’s fine, make some PF runs and find like minded people, I’m sure you will find many who share your desire for more challenging runs. But don’t waste the time of 3 other people who are just looking to get in and out of a dungeon by purposely undergearing. Many of us have put the time and effort into farming said gear so we can get through stuff like dungeons faster if you don’t want to do that then go group with like minded people.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

So, on the one hand, I generally agree. I had a Dohn Mheg run where both DPS were doing ~3500 each on AoE pulls. I've had tissue paper tanks. There's a point at which encounters become mathematically impossible if people aren't geared, and rather tedious even if it IS possible.

On the other hand, I did this (being undergeared) recently. I got SCH to 61 after leveling and 50/60 dungeon roulette, went to buy shire gear, and found I only had enough for aug. weapon, normal chest, and normal legs. I had spent the bulk of my poetics recently on getting DRK full aug. shire, and I don't do full roulette daily anymore because I find the content boring. I really, really didn't want to go do MSQ3K: Errands With Cid Roulette or any of the other braindead poetics granting content. I had ~220 ilvl for SCH, some leftover HQ food and Infusions, and am pretty confident in my skill as a healer.

So I queued into Sirensong with the musty AF2 armor people have been mentioning in this thread. The tank went full tilt. And I healed it, no deaths except one DPS who got 9 stacks of vuln. on Governor (I even rescued them out of it the first time). Had to actually pop infusions to heal some of the spicier pulls, had to use Dissipation way more than is likely normal, had to hold back my gag reflex when I had to spam physick to keep the tank up, didn't DPS nearly as much as I could have properly geared. But I did it, and honestly it was fun to actually be challenged to heal outside of Savage prog/awful party members. I made the run go slower, but I find it hard to regret an experience that I feel validated my assessment of my own skill.

So while I think there needs to be a limit, I don't think it needs to be too high. In fact, I'm also of the opinion that max ilvl for dungeons needs to be lower, for both leveling and endgame. The level of faceroll that most content in this game is up to current patch contributes to bad habits in the playerbase, and actually requiring some degree of competent play by disallowing gross overgearing would help. Make people do mechanics in leveling dungeons FFS.

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I actually find the most depressing part of this story is the fact that you're running a parser on casual dungeon content.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

I actually find the most depressing part of this story is the fact that you're running a parser on casual dungeon content.

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Amen. Got to love it really. Don't go anywhere without one right?

On topic I think the recently introduced coffer drops are pretty awesome. You can gear a roll at different levels with them and it's based on the roll that opens them. Sure beats trying to gear by running a dungeon and never getting drops you want. I hope we see a lot more of these in quests for 5.1 and beyond.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

So, on the one hand, I generally agree. I had a Dohn Mheg run where both DPS were doing ~3500 each on AoE pulls. I've had tissue paper tanks. There's a point at which encounters become mathematically impossible if people aren't geared, and rather tedious even if it IS possible.

On the other hand, I did this (being undergeared) recently.

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Of course its possible to clear things but it makes it much more harder for everyone, especially if its the tank. Why not just buy some gear from vendors?

Also what if the person undergeared was also bad at their job? Or simply cant do their job? Would you be of the same mind when a tank cant hold aggro at all, everyone else gets all the monsters, they might die to tankbusters simply because they are too low or cant handle buffs at the same time (which might have been still fine with great gear). Would you think it great if they then turn around and say that they had a great experience doing that because they liked seeing the healer having to work for it?

IMO its all fine and dandy when people at least know their jobs and the rest is not bad and work harder for it but thats often not the case. And I am quite sure that you would not be a fan of harder dungeons with lower max ilvl if you constantly cant clear it or wipe a lot of times. Because bad players or people that are still learning wont just suddenly get good/great at it. Would you truly be running this all the times with randoms?

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

So, on the one hand, I generally agree. I had a Dohn Mheg run where both DPS were doing ~3500 each on AoE pulls. I've had tissue paper tanks. There's a point at which encounters become mathematically impossible if people aren't geared, and rather tedious even if it IS possible.

On the other hand, I did this (being undergeared) recently. I got SCH to 61 after leveling and 50/60 dungeon roulette, went to buy shire gear, and found I only had enough for aug. weapon, normal chest, and normal legs. I had spent the bulk of my poetics recently on getting DRK full aug. shire, and I don't do full roulette daily anymore because I find the content boring. I really, really didn't want to go do MSQ3K: Errands With Cid Roulette or any of the other braindead poetics granting content. I had ~220 ilvl for SCH, some leftover HQ food and Infusions, and am pretty confident in my skill as a healer.

So I queued into Sirensong with the musty AF2 armor people have been mentioning in this thread. The tank went full tilt. And I healed it, no deaths except one DPS who got 9 stacks of vuln. on Governor (I even rescued them out of it the first time). Had to actually pop infusions to heal some of the spicier pulls, had to use Dissipation way more than is likely normal, had to hold back my gag reflex when I had to spam physick to keep the tank up, didn't DPS nearly as much as I could have properly geared. But I did it, and honestly it was fun to actually be challenged to heal outside of Savage prog/awful party members. I made the run go slower, but I find it hard to regret an experience that I feel validated my assessment of my own skill.

So while I think there needs to be a limit, I don't think it needs to be too high. In fact, I'm also of the opinion that max ilvl for dungeons needs to be lower, for both leveling and endgame. The level of faceroll that most content in this game is up to current patch contributes to bad habits in the playerbase, and actually requiring some degree of competent play by disallowing gross overgearing would help. Make people do mechanics in leveling dungeons FFS.

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This story reminds me of a raider friend who parsed me and my friend back in SB. A WHM and PLD.
He parsed us what I think was Hells Lid or whatever it's called, and then told me aobut it and said how my friend sucked or whatever and
he noticed my short lags here and there causing my DPS to fall short and letting the Aero drop. After telling him he really shouldn't
be doing that because first of all...no one cares and secondly it's rude and no one asked and to leave that crap into his static, he was livid at me and blocked me.
Was my friend since late 2.0 until then..Nice guy too and I miss how he was. Just sad that he had to parse a heal and tank in a friggin' regular dungeon lol.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

I actually find the most depressing part of this story is the fact that you're running a parser on casual dungeon content.

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I run it in all content to check how I'm doing. Neither I nor the tank mentioned a thing to the DPS. Not the parse, not the gear, not the BLM's awful rotation (which I noticed by the cast bars, not logs), not that I was running OOM on basic pulls, not that every boss took twice as long as normal. We told them "gg" and left the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Of course its possible to clear things but it makes it much more harder for everyone, especially if its the tank. Why not just buy some gear from vendors?

Also what if the person undergeared was also bad at their job? Or simply cant do their job? Would you be of the same mind when a tank cant hold aggro at all, everyone else gets all the monsters, they might die to tankbusters simply because they are too low or cant handle buffs at the same time (which might have been still fine with great gear). Would you think it great if they then turn around and say that they had a great experience doing that because they liked seeing the healer having to work for it?

IMO its all fine and dandy when people at least know their jobs and the rest is not bad and work harder for it but thats often not the case. And I am quite sure that you would not be a fan of harder dungeons with lower max ilvl if you constantly cant clear it or wipe a lot of times. Because bad players or people that are still learning wont just suddenly get good/great at it. Would you truly be running this all the times with randoms?

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I don't have much gil, because a lot of the ways to accumulate it, even passive ones like retainers, I just hate doing. Hate upkeeping things like that or dealing with the markets. And when vendor white gear is tens of thousands a pop, like 10% of my total wealth per piece, I'd rather save that money for savage consumables, crafted gear, and glamour. Plus, as I said, I was confident in my skill and figured a good healer undergeared would be no worse than a mediocre one overgeared. Yes, it's slightly selfish, but because I'm competent at my role the runs still went smoothly. I got commended at least once for every Sirensong run, so it didn't seem like anyone held a grudge (but who knows? I never told the DPS in the Dohn Mehg story I thought they were awful either).

If I had to heal the DPS through because the tank was of low competence, and I succeeded? Sure I'd call that a win. One of my favorite things to do late Stormblood was solo heal EX primals that were just bad enough for me to have to carry and not so bad that I couldn't. If the tank was ALSO undergeared, but very skilled? I still think the dungeon would have been possible. If I had just fallen flat on my face, I'd have excused myself, eaten the penalty, and committed to getting the poetics. As it was, I got most of the 360 gear I needed running Sirensong. By the second run I had ~245 and by the third I wasn't significantly different than someone in full unupgraded shire.

And on the contrary, I would welcome a higher likelihood of failure in casual content if it provided me with more engagement and resulted in more players actually learning to play the game before max level. I care about runs being interesting before I care about them being fast or easy; I may have mentioned that the Dohn Mheg DPS were bad, but, then again, it's the first time I had to actually consider MP and triage in FF14 since about ARR and that was kind of fun. I wouldn't want every single run to be like that, but I do want every single run to feel like either I had a chance to fail or that I improved somehow (e.g., optimized DPS better). Right now, the bulk of content in FF14 just doesn't allow for that on healer anymore if everyone knows the content and/or is overgeared.

They just need to bring out a new deep dungeon for ones that want to level up other jobs and alts. They could add a new expansion to Heaven on high and raise max level to it to level 80.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

They just need to bring out a new deep dungeon for ones that want to level up other jobs and alts. They could add a new expansion to Heaven on high and raise max level to it to level 80.

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Which isn't going to happen until 5.3 at the earliest.

I just don't see this as a big problem in leveling dungeons. Never noticed it happen enough to even think about it.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

snip.

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The point is, you can't assume randoms in DF are skilled players. Skilled enough to easily make up for a severe lack of gear.
It's great and all that you're a skilled player who can guarantee a smooth run even undergeared. Good on you, good on your party.
But my first thought when I see a severly undergeared player in a dungeon isn't "Oh I'm sure he's a really skilled player so gear means nothing, he will easily make up for it with his A+ gameplayl!".
You may be able to manage the run well enough but that doesn't apply to everyone out there and more often than not the severly undergeared players are ones that generally don't really care about their contribution to a run which reflects in their gameplay and their attitude when it's clear they're holding the rest back to the point it becomes almost impossible to get through.
I have met only very few people who ever had the decency to bow out and make it their priority to get some decent gear when they were the ones who made the run impossible due to their current gear (+ poor gameplay usually aswell).

Someone already said it and I second this: getting gear in a MMO is a feature. Unless a game has a completely different design, gear is part of the character progression and therefor a feature just like getting enough money to at least get by is. If someone doesn't like it, it's on them.
But the game is design in a way that makes gear progression an important part even during leveling content.

Stop complaining, i met several DDs while pushing my Tanks from 70 to 80 (only with the 73, 75 and 77 dungeon) witch where way undergeared. We made it somehow but you realy could feel the difference, some of them where so undergeared that we needed 40 or more minutes for a run that usualy is finished after around 25 minutes. I mean running around in the 77 Dungeon with a gearscore for lvl 65 is realy a bit exteme.

to throw my anecdote onto the pile...

Did the lvl 79 story dungeon last night with a SMN using all of their handed over lvl70 gear (the gear for boosting to 70). One of the longest dungeon runs I've had in quite a while.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

I actually find the most depressing part of this story is the fact that you're running a parser on casual dungeon content.

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I feel the intent is for personal optimization but the end result gets lumped into a party optimization through damage and gear. I do feel that people (whether the intent is justified or not) tend to harp on underperformers far more when parsing in this way as they are affecting their own experience.

At least in casual content I'm a big fan of the good ol mentality of looking at people's gear, what they're doing and seeing how long the pulls take as a whole. Offering advice (if people are willing to listen) for better optimization is a nice gesture and if people to take it to heart, awesome.

I'll admit I've had times where I wish I had some actual record of some of my runs.I've had some fantastic Akademia runs in Expert rou where the bosses just melted because everyone was doing so well, and was very interested especially if someone is playing a job I also play as well. I'm usually tanking so when I see a MNK or a SAM tearing through these bosses I'd love to see the numbers of how much dps they did.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

I actually find the most depressing part of this story is the fact that you're running a parser on casual dungeon content.

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10/10 times it was on because I just finished raiding and was too lazy to turn it off.

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Originally Posted by Noitems

I feel the intent is for personal optimization but the end result gets lumped into a party optimization through damage and gear. I do feel that people (whether the intent is justified or not) tend to harp on underperformers...

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Optimization? Performance? We are talking of DUTY FINDER, man. PUGS!!!!!!
Are you really serious?

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Optimization? Performance? We are talking of DUTY FINDER, man. PUGS!!!!!!
Are you really serious?

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I mean, are you serious?

What's wrong with someone personally wanting to improve themselves through Duty Finder?

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

I actually find the most depressing part of this story is the fact that you're running a parser on casual dungeon content.

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It’s pretty ironic because he claims he is doing it for his own improvement then he rants about the BLMs low performance than he brags about heading The Sirensong Sea when he was severely undergeared which was drastically lower his ability to DPS as well as his DPS itself. I wonder how much fun he would have been having if everyone else was as undergeared as he was causing multiple wipes.

With SE's stance on trying to avoid ilevel requirements for leveling duties the only other solution I can think of would be enabling ilevel sync both ways.
Gear that's too far ahead of the duty already gets scaled down (how wonky the level of sync is at times is another story entirely) so they could just enable upscaling, preferably to the level of the previous dungeon's drops, for gear that doesn't meet what the minimum requirements for the duty should be.

That still leaves issues with empty slots and people using the wrong kind of gear for their job but it would at least be a start.

I don't mind if ppl use stuff like parser just for themself for comparison or improving their own playstyle. But as soon you start bullying ppl with that shit or feel the urge to tell them how they should play without beeing asked you should get a perma ban for this game. Offering a advice is ok, but don't bother them if they don't want to hear it.

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Originally Posted by Astrus

With SE's stance on trying to avoid ilevel requirements for leveling duties the only other solution I can think of would be enabling ilevel sync both ways.
Gear that's too far ahead of the duty already gets scaled down (how wonky the level of sync is at times is another story entirely) so they could just enable upscaling, preferably to the level of the previous dungeon's drops, for gear that doesn't meet what the minimum requirements for the duty should be.

That still leaves issues with empty slots and people using the wrong kind of gear for their job but it would at least be a start.

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if they did this, when whats the point of having gear every 2 levels if I can use the gear I got from lvl70 all the way until 80. Not saying its the worst idea or that I have a better one, but like Yoshi said, theres a lot problems that come up trying to fix this.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

It’s pretty ironic because he claims he is doing it for his own improvement then he rants about the BLMs low performance than he brags about heading The Sirensong Sea when he was severely undergeared which was drastically lower his ability to DPS as well as his DPS itself. I wonder how much fun he would have been having if everyone else was as undergeared as he was causing multiple wipes.

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1. Just because I primarily use it to check myself doesn't render me oblivious to how others did. In fact, as a healer, I have to take party performance into account because how much I need to heal impacts my DPS and sometimes overheal.
1a. I provided the numbers in support of observations I made, the same sort of observations people in this very thread have talked about. But because I added a qualitative check of my assessment, having not harassed the players involved or identified them beyond the abstraction of job, I'm "depressing?"
1b. There's a big difference between me putting in the effort to heal while undergeared, and succeeding while still adding substantial dps (more than some overgeared healers I've seen), and a player whose only job is to add damage doing less than a healer, and not even because of gear, after 73 levels worth of time to learn even the basics of a rotation.

2. I'd wager I could have healed an entire party as undergeared as I was in Siren with single pulls. I was not maxed out in that run, I was still far from 100% healing uptime. Don't underestimate how severely undertuned much of this game's incoming damage is; it's why I get bored and did something like this to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira

if they did this, when whats the point of having gear every 2 levels if I can use the gear I got from lvl70 all the way until 80. Not saying its the worst idea or that I have a better one, but like Yoshi said, theres a lot problems that come up trying to fix this.

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Questing in the overworld and the solo quest instances come to mind.
It's not perfect but at least that way people who use gear from 2 expansions ago only hinder their own ability to progress and not the unfortunate strangers' they get matched with as well.

Every other solution I can think of, aside from plain ilevel requirements for leveling dungeons, breaks things even more.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

1. Just because I primarily use it to check myself doesn't render me oblivious to how others did. In fact, as a healer, I have to take party performance into account because how much I need to heal impacts my DPS and sometimes overheal.
1a. I provided the numbers in support of observations I made, the same sort of observations people in this very thread have talked about. But because I added a qualitative check of my assessment, having not harassed the players involved or identified them beyond the abstraction of job, I'm "depressing?"
1b. There's a big difference between me putting in the effort to heal while undergeared, and succeeding while still adding substantial dps (more than some overgeared healers I've seen), and a player whose only job is to add damage doing less than a healer, and not even because of gear, after 73 levels worth of time to learn even the basics of a rotation.

2. I'd wager I could have healed an entire party as undergeared as I was in Siren with single pulls. I was not maxed out in that run, I was still far from 100% healing uptime. Don't underestimate how severely undertuned much of this game's incoming damage is; it's why I get bored and did something like this to begin with.

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Okay, you go setup a full party for The Sirensong Sea with everyone at i220 gear and let me know how it goes, good luck!

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Okay, you go setup a full party for The Sirensong Sea with everyone at i220 gear and let me know how it goes, good luck!

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ilvl 220 average; I had the 270 weapon, 260 chest, and 260 legs, which is a pretty big factor. And sure, I'll get some friends together and let you know what the result is.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

ilvl 220 average; I had the 270 weapon, 260 chest, and 260 legs, which is a pretty big factor. And sure, I'll get some friends together and let you know what the result is.

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https://i.imgur.com/XThqOeM.jpg

This was from SB but I'll save you the effort, he couldn't do big pulls and didn't use CDs, was a struggle to heal them and wasn't a fun time for anyone since this person didn't understand why they couldn't do the dungeon at their lvl but not the ilvl. They were average ilvl of about 180 something in a dungeon that drops 260 gear we booted him at the first boss since they couldn't hold threat and got hit like a wet noodle this guy had a healer main at 70 which was the max in SB he had zero excuse to not have appropriate gear.

This is what people are talking about when we need an ilvl requirement they're a detriment to their group and if they are kick them it's not out of malice or hatred its the fact of the matter that they chose to do this knowing the consequences if they got something like Sirensong Sea.

I’m currently in MSQ Roulette with a SMN that has level 50/51 gear... and a level 1 Weathered book as their weapon...

Granted, this is MSQ Roulette.... but the guy has a piece from Dusk Vigil. Meaning he likely went into Dusk Vigil with a level 1 weapon...

I can only imagine how fun that was for his party...

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Originally Posted by Awful

https://i.imgur.com/XThqOeM.jpg

This is what people are talking about when we need an ilvl requirement they're a detriment to their group and if they are kick them it's not out of malice or hatred its the fact of the matter that they chose to do this knowing the consequences if they got something like Sirensong Sea.

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I have, not once, argued that there is no need for ilvl minimums. In my first post in this thread, I said that not having them results in mathematically impossible runs. I brought up my undergeared experience because:

a) it helps define where such should be placed. If I'm an above average healer and could heal at 220, then 230, same as Baelsar's Wall as others have suggested, seems a decent benchmark. Then drastically raise the requirement for Shisui to like 255 and follow a trend of ilvl dropped - 15 for the minimum a la endgame dungeons.

b) it expresses my frustration with how undertuned pre-71 leveling dungeons are, esp on healer. I think this is relevant because it fails to teach the game and lets players get away with being hideously undergeared because there are rarely consequences. Esp for dps. Goes along with my idea that we need set minimums and lower maximums.

These are my points; I didn't come in here to get into debates about parsers or accuse players of being bad people because they refuse to carry fools (far from it). I mentioned that I find lower gear runs more engaging personally, but I never argued everyone ought to be queuing min ilvl.

Yet such distractions seem to be all people want to address me with. The only relevant thing I've seen is that I selfishly slowed some runs down compared to a me in full shire. Which I never denied; I gambled my and others' time that I could satisfactorily heal siren at avg 220 and gear that way instead of grinding content I did not want to do. This time it paid off, I had fun, the other players seemed to have had fun, and therefore I do not regret it.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

Snip

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Lower ilvl runs are fun for the wrong reasons, while I do agree I'd want more of a challenge but this isn't my idea of challenge it's the wrong kind of challenge like holding someone's hand while you guide them through the dungeon (especially if they're a tank or healer). I don't like hand holding I feel that by lvl 50 you should have an idea of your Buffs/AoE rotation/Single target rotation/stand out of the bad that is what we call the bare minimum, they should also be adequately geared for said duty, should they be like full 270 for Sirensong? No, but it helps.

I get that you have fun but at other people's expense I can't really agree, I do like that you want to better yourself but then I look at the other people who are the opposite of you that just want a free ride and it's those kinda players that make the game harder when they could have avoided it.

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Originally Posted by Awful

holding someone's hand while you guide them through the dungeon (especially if they're a tank or healer). I don't like hand holding I feel that by lvl 50 you should have an idea of your Buffs/AoE rotation/Single target rotation/stand out of the bad that is what we call the bare minimum, they should also be adequately geared for said duty, should they be like full 270 for Sirensong? No, but it helps.

I get that you have fun but at other people's expense I can't really agree, I do like that you want to better yourself but then I look at the other people who are the opposite of you that just want a free ride and it's those kinda players that make the game harder when they could have avoided it.

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Yeah, I agree. I hate these kind of players. They put little to no effort, and expect others to complete content for them, at the expense of the rest of the rest of the party. They aren't worth having. If they are a new player struggling sure, but there are way too many who just want a free ride, and expect to be hand held.

Not calling these players out, or not kicking them even when it's a big detriment just enables them to keep doing it in other parties.

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Originally Posted by Noitems

I mean, are you serious?

What's wrong with someone personally wanting to improve themselves through Duty Finder?

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Nothing wrong for yourself, but you need be aware of much delusion if you expect others be as you.

I want to point out, at least IMO, problems with the minimum Ilvl requirement.

- NQ vs HQ. For example, during the whole ShB augmented scaevan gear is much better than any NQ piece.

https://i.imgur.com/LNekBHf.png
https://i.imgur.com/UIyt8aI.png

- The importance of the left side over the right side. A tank still using 270 left side but with up to date right side is not fun to play/heal past Bardam's Mettle.

- Inconsistences with the gear scaling. NQ Birch Longbow lag behind 4 damage points compared to augmented ironwork (53 vs 57). In this case, you are better off keeping augmented ironwork, yet the rest of the left side pieces are, in general, better. Something similar happens with augmented shire vs NQ zelkova longbow (84 vs 81).

- HQ gear from the markerboard can be quite expensive. With the current levelling speed is hard to justify.

Anyway, don't get me wrong, the current problem should be fixed and I encourage people to kick any player that is unreasonable undergeared for the content at hand. If you ask me the only expansion that the full augmented set won't last till the end is SB. Once you hit 66 all your left side should be up to date, even then you can keep right side and weapon. Is the expansion with the bigger stat jump, in contrast, HW can be clear with any major problem as long as the tank pulls at a reasonable pace.

Edit: don't be lazy and acquire all the augmented ironworks, shire and scavean. There is zero justification for not having it, in special scavean.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

I don't have much gil, because a lot of the ways to accumulate it, even passive ones like retainers, I just hate doing. Hate upkeeping things like that or dealing with the markets. And when vendor white gear is tens of thousands a pop, like 10% of my total wealth per piece, I'd rather save that money for savage consumables, crafted gear, and glamour. Plus, as I said, I was confident in my skill and figured a good healer undergeared would be no worse than a mediocre one overgeared. Yes, it's slightly selfish, but because I'm competent at my role the runs still went smoothly. I got commended at least once for every Sirensong run, so it didn't seem like anyone held a grudge (but who knows? I never told the DPS in the Dohn Mehg story I thought they were awful either).

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So on one hand you say that you dont have enough gil to simply buy vendor stuff and at the same time have enough for savage consumables, crafted gear and glamour..that does not make much sense to me. It just feels like you simply dont want to spend that gil there. (Glamour gear alone often costs much much more than a whole set of vendor gear)

The problem is again, just because you are doing great at this does not mean that everyone is doing that. And even if people pull through with that, the one person being undergeared made the run worse thus wasted time of the other three or more people. And if you have a very undergeared tank that cant even hold aggro with the new aggro system, then they are not doing their job right. Everyone else needs to cover their slack and if everyone is medicore or maybe the healer is new and not a pro then this will end in failure. You may succeed in it, but if you dont and go out of the dungeon you again have wasted time for those people, especially the DD that may have waited really long.

Edit: Also if you like the challenge why not go at it with premades? Go take like minded people and see how low you can go and how long you can keep alive or clear things. But if you go with randoms I find that to be bad. You are wasting time for those and if you dont manage to clear something then you wasted their times even more.