Let's Theorize a 5.1 Balance Patch.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Red Mage : Increase potencies across the board, but especially on Jolt II. Maybe add damage over time to some skill (though which is hard to determine) to help with up time during movement phases. Increase duration of Embolden and give it a flat increase rather than diminishing returns over time.

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1) Why should RDM be rewarded for poor play/proc management with an even stronger Jolt II?
2) No DoTs, the class quests explain why RDM doesn't use any DoTs and they just plain don't fit with the class's playstyle. Also, Reprise is meant to be that skill for movement phases.
3) Embolden's fine as is, it's currently either the second or third strongest buff in the game, being roughly equivalent to Technical Step (750-800 rDPS in a phys comp)

Machinist needs a all around damage buff. It’s suppose to the the greedy dps of the the physical Range dps. Queen is use less in aoes give her a bishop mode. Flamethrower is crap. Reassemble should have 2 stacks. Wildfire should ctr. If not It shouldn’t feel so weak. Do something about queen summon timer and animation. THE TIMER SHOULD NOT START UNTIL QUEEN ATTACKS A TARGET. Thank you. Also ping issues specially on ps4 and why is queen attacks weapon skills yet doesn’t work on wildfire.

No new skills or old skills back ( to not write a huge post ), based in what we have and i leveled, i hope for:

WAR

- Nascent Flash: Be able to cast in yourself ( no 10% defense bonus, only heal effect ) or a Party Member with same actual effect, this way WAR self-sustain especially as solo become decent.

- Onslaught: No Gauge Points required to use, i can deal with not being able to charge because it's way faster CD, but use my Gauge whenthe other Tanks don't use anything to it isn't fair.

WHM

- Fluid Aura: 160 Damage Potency + Bind, Stun OR Interrupt effect ( 1 Lilly Required ), that way you don't need to overheal to build Afflatus Misery most of time, FA does damage again and become usefull, because right now is a Hotbar Slot waste.

Gonna try to actually play along with OP here:


1. I think nerfing BLM and MNK should be trivial enough (trim some percentages, most likely) that it's not worth diving into as a topic. Not certain SE would actually do it, but might as well play along with the premise.


2. I think combat res warrants a tax of roughly 3%, as I'd guesstimate that to be the damage-output value of 1.5 dps swift raises, which seems like a reasonable target to account for. I'd also put a 3% tax on ranged dps, because you don't want them to be quite close enough for people to "why not" them into the free slot every time.

Other defensive utility... frankly, until they make healing tougher, I'm not going to think too hard about valuing those all that highly. Maybe shave half a percent or something.

One more thing though, it's important to recognize the other major blind spot of rDPS - it cannot tell you which jobs are better able to leverage buffs by squeezing more damage into them. i.e., if SAM and MNK had identical rDPS, in the real world SAM would definitively be the stronger of the two.


3. I could not begin to guess at what ought to be done for NIN or SMN, especially with the exact 5.08 changes being unknown, so I'll shelve those. I'd imagine the upcoming meditate stack changes for SAM could be enough to bring them up to DRG, depending on how that's done, and I've heard little in the way of QoL complaints about SAM so they may be fine as of 5.08.


As for the other four:


DNC - target gain: ~7.5%

Dancer gameplay is in a pretty good place, save for Improvisation. That skill is kind of just a mess overall, beyond truly fixing in a patch, but I think the common-sense tweaks of (a) make the Mantra buff linger for 15s after it expires, and (b) just make it generate a flat 10 esprit instead of being weirdly party reliant, should do well enough for now.

As for their numbers, I'm a fan (ha) of buffing the fan skills, as that's pretty non-disruptive in terms of their math afaik, and increases the payoff for skillful play. I'd add 50 to each Fan, and then 25 to each GCD, and that should come out pretty close to our 7.5% goal.


MCH - target gain: ~7%

This one's a bit tougher because you really want to deal with the ping problem somehow, first and foremost, and working out the math of different solutions is hard. The other problem is the difficulty of constructing a good solution that does not simply create another problem.

The safest option I can think of is, reduce Hypercharge to 7s and give Heat Blast a normal GCD cooldown, but have it trim 30 seconds off of Gauss/Rico instead of 15. That should reduce the ping burden to equal that of general double-weaving, while maintaining the feel of pressing all the things for several seconds. As a bonus, it'd make SkS a tad less awkward.

You'd have to replace the lost 440p by buffing Heat Blast, so make HB 350p, and you'd need to adjust Wildfire... somehow. A MCH guru will probably have a better design idea than I would, but off the cuff my inclination would be to make it deal double damage if it detonates while Hypercharged (and it'd likely need to go to 9 seconds).

That WF idea in itself is worth maybe a percent-plus, so we need a bunch more. I think Gauss Round should be more meaty in general, so I'd look to that and make that 250p, and remove the damage dropoff from Rico because that's dumb too. For the last couple percent-minus, I think maybe sliding Drill and AA up to 750p would do the trick.


BRD - target gain: ~7%

Easy stuff first. Apex Arrow to 800. Add a second charge to Empyreal. Make Muse 15s. Should be worth about 3% all told, the latter two are mainly QoL and Apex just ought to be less sad. 800 is a "nice" number in that it makes 20 gauge Apex worth it in some very narrow circumstance,

Now to play up the support. I think the easiest way to fix the "Minne is just worst Mantra" problem is to buff its percentage, from 20% to 40%. Warden's I would leave alone in this configuration, but sooner or later it ought to be reworked.

For the big change, I'd up Battle Voice to 30%, give it a second charge, and make it physical-only. Then add "Foe" back as a magic-only mirror of Battle Voice, and have it so you can't be using both at the same time.

On the net, the overall impact of this should be an approximate doubling of added raid damage - so around +4%, which would still leave Bard a very far cry from DNC, but much more solidly above random jobs that aren't support-flavored. More importantly, it'd greatly enhance the frequency and decision weight tied to Bard's party buffing, enhancing that flavor as widely demanded, without actually making things scary power-wise.


RDM - target gain: ~6%

Kinda like DNC, the gameplay here is largely fine, though they should maybe think about making single-target Moulinet a not-thing. Returning Reprise to 300p and perhaps a little more expensive should do the trick if I understand things correctly. Not likely to be much of an actual damage gain, just some QoL really.

Past that, I wouldn't mind giving +30p to all four single target Verspells (should be ~4%), as proc mistakes feel a little too free right now anyway. For the rest, doubling Manafication to 10% seems sound, and then you'd need a little something more still... maybe Scorch to 750 and Fleche to 450? Something around that scale should do.

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Originally Posted by Leidiriv

Red Mage:
Verfire/Verstone potency increased to 290
Verthunder/Veraero potency increased to 330
Scorch now grants 10/10 mana instead of 7/7
Reprise potency increased to 300
Reprise mana cost increased to 7/7
Manafication magic damage buff increased to 10%

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Jolt II would need brought up as well. Its not about "rewarding bad play" but managing bad proc RNG now that impact is dead. It would have to be around 265-270.

Scorche and reprise changes are okay.

Increasing manafiction is good, so its not so weak.

Magical Embolden is going to have to happen at some point though. We can't keep being the black sheep of casters who can't play well with other members of our role.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

Jolt II would need brought up as well. Its not about "rewarding bad play" but managing bad proc RNG now that impact is dead. It would have to be around 265-270.

Scorche and reprise changes are okay.

Increasing manafiction is good, so its not so weak.

Magical Embolden is going to have to happen at some point though. We can't keep being the black sheep of casters who can't play well with other members of our role.

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The first point is why Thunder/Aero got buffed. Good proc management should be a bit more rewarding than just 20 potency, and it's not like RNG has that much of an effect on RDM's gameplay now with 2 hardcasts every melee cycle guaranteed to be Fire/Stone and having 2 Swiftcasts every Manafic to fish for even more procs. If it gets dire enough, there's nothing saying they can't add an Impactful equivalent back in for 6.0.

My main concern with making Embolden omni-damage is that it'd make us want to use Fleche/C6 awkwardly in an attempt to get the damage buff on them, and it'd bring what's already an incredibly strong buff up above 1k rDPS more likely than not. Such a buff would have to come at the cost of our personal damage, which I'd absolutely dread.

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Originally Posted by Leidiriv

The first point is why Thunder/Aero got buffed. Good proc management should be a bit more rewarding than just 20 potency, and it's not like RNG has that much of an effect on RDM's gameplay now with 2 hardcasts every melee cycle guaranteed to be Fire/Stone and having 2 Swiftcasts every Manafic to fish for even more procs. If it gets dire enough, there's nothing saying they can't add an Impactful equivalent back in for 6.0.

My main concern with making Embolden omni-damage is that it'd make us want to use Fleche/C6 awkwardly in an attempt to get the damage buff on them, and it'd bring what's already an incredibly strong buff up above 1k rDPS more likely than not. Such a buff would have to come at the cost of our personal damage, which I'd absolutely dread.

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Magical Embolden would only affect party members, but even if it did affect our fleche it wouldn't really change when fleche is used. Personally, I do hate unsynergistic design so I wouldn't want our CD alignment to be at the mercy of embolden, so if embolden does change I would want it to change for party members only, but at the end of the day, nothing is changing for the worse.

Fights like e3s show how much of a detriment bad procs can be. You only have so much wiggle room. Being ready for Manafiction by the 2nd drenching puddles and again when stormy comes up, you need to be within 20/11 on either mana to get the needed mobility via melee combo]

Changing Embolden would increase our RDPS by about 15~20%. That's about 175* RDPS on a good day. A comp with MNK + BLM might increase that a bit, to about 200, but thats it. RDM still has 800 DPS to make up with personal damage.

*based on a 95 percentile party in E3s, with all 99 percentile DPS. Other fights with more uptime like E2s change these values by ~15.

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Originally Posted by Leidiriv

My main concern with making Embolden omni-damage is that it'd make us want to use Fleche/C6 awkwardly in an attempt to get the damage buff on them, and it'd bring what's already an incredibly strong buff up above 1k rDPS more likely than not. Such a buff would have to come at the cost of our personal damage, which I'd absolutely dread.

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Um, Embolden already increases magic damage for the red mage so I don't know why it'd change anything.

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Originally Posted by MaelleRiou

Um, Embolden already increases magic damage for the red mage so I don't know why it'd change anything.

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He's specifically talking about our Physical damage. Fleche, Contre, Corps, Engagement, Displacement. These are all physical and not affected by current embolden, but at the end of the day if embolden affected both physical and magical for self and party members, the best course of action will still be using them off cool down, between the decay and awkward cool down timers.

Dancer could use a QoL so that it's more consistent, given the fact that we don't even have rates for Esprit due to how the wording is. It says that you're supposed to gain Esprit from any successful weaponskill or spell, but it doesn't translate well. There have been people asking for Saber Dance to be oGCD, but the only way we'd be able to allow that is probably to do the following:

Saber Dance: 50 Gauge
Deals damage within a 5y radius of target with a potency of 400.

You'd have to scale down the damage for it a bit as well as consider Technical Step, though in doing this you also increase the APM for DNC as well as its damage respectively since you're not subject to RNG anymore. As with the other person in this thread said, making Flourishes guarantee Feathers would also allow more solid consistency when you're already dealing with proc RNG too, so removing some of the RNG away from the class would help improve its capability and make it more on even ground with BRD/MCH since currently their damage is on the low side(which is understandable, but the Curing Waltz/Shield Samba/Esprit Buff/Devilment/Improvisation "tax" holds it back a lot compared to other jobs).

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

He's specifically talking about our Physical damage. Fleche, Contre, Corps, Engagement, Displacement. These are all physical and not affected by current embolden, but at the end of the day if embolden affected both physical and magical for self and party members, the best course of action will still be using them off cool down, between the decay and awkward cool down timers.

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Oh, I got it.

I never realized the spell that causes giant magical swords to fly at the enemy did physical damage. So my bad on that one.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

so u think Monk should be stronger then BLM and SAM :P u are aware until u're nerfed. No fix will ever fix SAMs position without Making the DPS Gaps Even Worse then they currently are lol.

Monk needs Nerfs (not massive ones) but they need to go down to where DRG are where they were orginally, then SAM needs to be levelled off with BLM. then then People beneath the top 4 (Monk / BLM / DRG / SAM) Need Small potency increases to reduce the gap back to where it was instead of the 2700 Gap today. then the obvious QoLs to Summoner and Ninja to reduce the strain on the Jobs.

will we see that i dont know, but if u honestly beleive Monks gonna fly under the radar for 2 patchs (5.08 and 5.1) I think ur crazy... i think When they were levelling off with DRG was likely their intended Placement DPS Ladder wise :P right now Monk is the answer to everything :P

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That's your opinion, mine is different. I'm not crazy I just have a different opinion then you have and if you can't accept a person having a different opinion then yours ... Than that's your problem. Sam will get his deserved buffs and he is gonna do 500 more DPS then monk just as it was in stormblood. Which is curious because they did the exact same thing and they didn't nerf monk? Why would that be I wonder... Nor they are gonna nerf black mage, otherwise they would spoke about it in the liveletter.

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Originally Posted by Leidiriv

My main concern with making Embolden omni-damage is that it'd make us want to use Fleche/C6 awkwardly in an attempt to get the damage buff on them, and it'd bring what's already an incredibly strong buff up above 1k rDPS more likely than not. Such a buff would have to come at the cost of our personal damage, which I'd absolutely dread.

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But also consider the math on that.

We get 4.8 Fleches every 2 minutes and 3.4 C6s, for each Embolden. Note that neither of these are integers and both CDs are longer than the Embolden buff, so in the ideal case when you're keeping these on CD, they won't always fall into the Embolden window, otherwise you've already lost damage from holding.
But let's say we time everything to pop C6/Fleche every time it's up, which itself means we're already taking a damage loss... for a 10% boost to two skills that make up a fraction of our damage.

A) How does the gain from having every 4th-5th Fleche and 3rd-4th C6 go up 10% compare to the loss caused by holding them to align them perfectly, and
B) Assuming the ideal scenario, what average percentage are you actually gaining by just popping both on CD and naturally waiting for them to line up?

I haven't actually crunched the numbers, but following the logic on the number of casts versus percentage damage gain, and I'm fairly certain the ultimate damage difference peaks around 2% percent just in the vacuum of those two oGCDs. And even then the point is to buff RDM in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Leidiriv

1) Why should RDM be rewarded for poor play/proc management with an even stronger Jolt II?
2) No DoTs, the class quests explain why RDM doesn't use any DoTs and they just plain don't fit with the class's playstyle. Also, Reprise is meant to be that skill for movement phases.

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1) Provided it remains weaker/less efficient than Verstone/fire, Jolt II buffs are less of a reward, more of a safety net against bad RNG strings.
2) Now I'm certain you're making stuff up. Literally WHERE does it say that?? The job quests only explain that we have low-cost skills and poor MP recovery because of the way we channel aether, they say nothing about the forms by which our spells are channeled.

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Originally Posted by Noctisnine

That's your opinion, mine is different. I'm not crazy I just have a different opinion then you have and if you can't accept a person having a different opinion then yours ... Than that's your problem. Sam will get his deserved buffs and he is gonna do 500 more DPS then monk just as it was in stormblood. Which is curious because they did the exact same thing and they didn't nerf monk? Why would that be I wonder... Nor they are gonna nerf black mage, otherwise they would spoke about it in the liveletter.

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As a MNK main I honestly could care less if SAM does more damage, honestly it would make sense. Just give me back my 60 sec Perfect Balance Square :(

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Originally Posted by DenzelVilliers

No new skills or old skills back ( to not write a huge post ), based in what we have and i leveled, i hope for:

WAR

- Nascent Flash: Be able to cast in yourself ( no 10% defense bonus, only heal effect ) or a Party Member with same actual effect, this way WAR self-sustain especially as solo become decent.

- Onslaught: No Gauge Points required to use, i can deal with not being able to charge because it's way faster CD, but use my Gauge whenthe other Tanks don't use anything to it isn't fair.

WHM

- Fluid Aura: 160 Damage Potency + Bind, Stun OR Interrupt effect ( 1 Lilly Required ), that way you don't need to overheal to build Afflatus Misery most of time, FA does damage again and become usefull, because right now is a Hotbar Slot waste.

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WHM need a nerf, not a buff '' whm is too strong'' ,
Fluid aura is a shitty spell among many others .

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Originally Posted by EpicOverlord85

As a MNK main I honestly could care less if SAM does more damage, honestly it would make sense. Just give me back my 60 sec Perfect Balance Square :(

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Well we don't really need it anymore, since we just can't lose our stacks ... Perfect balance is now just a buff used to spam DK and BS. To be honest, Monk is broken in all ways : broken DPS, broken identity, broken utility. Sure it does crazy DPS, but they completly lost their way with the job.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

2) Now I'm certain you're making stuff up. Literally WHERE does it say that?? The job quests only explain that we have low-cost skills and poor MP recovery because of the way we channel aether, they say nothing about the forms by which our spells are channeled.

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The whole thing in the first quest about how we make up for using weaker/lower cost spells by using our body and our blade as an arcane accelerator says hi. We can't use DoTs because we're already using them, just completely frontloading their effects.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Snip original thread post

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I'ma try this again and do all the dps + a few, keeping to the rules, but keep in mind I only have MNK, NIN, DNC, DRK, AST at 80 so i honestly don't know much about others, AND NIN is really my only expertise.

Also note that I believe Damage utility classes should have higher potential rDPS than pure dps classes w/out utility. but pure classes should have better pDPS. For my statistcal reasoning i'll be examining current box-plots for ShB. Also note that DRG dmg is one of the more stable dpses, IE the variance spread is smaller than it is for most other classes, and personally i think dmg potential should be a bit lower than drg current level so as not to make Eden Savage a cakewalk. I also think difficulty should be slightly rewarded if a big jump up from the other related classes of the same role.

For each class I will make a composite % based difference in dps compared to dragoon based on median and then 75th percentile combined for each savage fight. then have one cumulative assessment as an average. This is gonna take awhile. math based on numbers at time of posting. If I run outta time tonight ill post what I have and edit the rest later. I will begin assessing after E2 math is done, because E3 and E4 see less clears still and thus are slightly biased towards higher skilled players. (but i will return to their number calculations and adjust my final assessment afterwords accordingly.) ALSO of note IMO E1 gives slight advantage to range players over melee players and burst classes via the downtime, E2 gives serious good uptime to melee, and best sustain estimate./ so looking at these two numbers gives a good window.
ALSO i want to nerf DRG values 1% cause i dont want savage to become easier. So my goals have a 1% nerf to DRG in mind.

MELEE

SAM: -E1 ~6.4% behind dragoon rDPS wise, ~2% behind pDPS wise.
E2 ~ 3.2 behind rDPS, .3% ahead pDPS

TAX: none;
GOAL more pDPS ~ 4% this would make him ~ 2% ahead pDPS wise, and depending on the raid up to ~2% behind rDPS wise sometimes ahead.
UNIQUE NEEDS: unsure.

MNK: -E1 ~.1% ahead of dragoon rDPS wise, ~ 2% ahead pDPS wise
E2 ~2.6% ahead rDPS. 4.3% ahead pDPS

TAX: Mantra (can save healer dps, or even save a raid as it could have one time ive seen in leviathin cause of the stupid rain drops doing dmg and healers not thinking about them) mild BOON if Earths reply is nerfed optimal positional rotation is significantly difficult.
GOAL: pDPS nerfed 3-4%. depending on the fight he could be ahead of DRG pDPS wise, but should consistently fall behind rDPS wise now ever so slightly.
UNIQUE NEEDS: make positionals great again, seriously nerf earths reply to like 15 seconds. skill cieling remains as high but skill needed increases.


DRG: values relative seen.

TAX: none, raid buff boon to rDPS;
GOAL 1% nerf.
UNIQUE NEEDS: unsure

NIN: E1 ~8.5% behind rDPS wise, 14% behind pDPS wise.
E2 ~8.5% behind rDPS, 13.9% behind pDPS

TAX: None mild BOON is currently difficult and Bunnying is very punishing if lag screws you over, additionally trick attack actually takes serious effort to maintain perfect uptime on compared to other click to win raid buffs.
GOAL 9% increase. pDPS would remain about 3% behind DRG, but rDPS could go as much as 1.5% ahead.
UNIQUE NEEDS: less latency screw over with mudras. TCJ shouldnt make us immobile for 5-7 seconds as it currently does.

RANGED
TAX GENERAL: mobility, lack of cast times, no positional, generally easier and forgiving. I mean objectively this is true.

MCH: E1 6.5% rDPS wise, 1.5% behind pDPS wise
E2 6.5% behind rDPS, 2.8% behind pDPS

TAX: mild tactician
GOAL: higher pDPS so 3.5% buff leaving it's rDPS 2% behind DRG but putting its pDPS 1.7 ahead.
UNIQUE NEEDS: unsure

BRD: E1 6.3% behind rDPS wise, 5.2% behind pDPS wise
E2 6.8% behind rDPS wise, 6.8% behind pDPS wise

TAX: mild on natures minne/troubador similar to monk.
GOAL: buffed 3% thus 2% behind rDPS and Pdps wise accounting for tax (and dragoon 1% nerf as a reminder)
UNIQUE NEEDS: identity loss, Brds basically a sniper. song effects need to come back a bit, pDPS can be reduced to compensate.

DNC: E1 8% behind rDPS wise, 17.5% behind pDPS wise
E2 11.5% behind rDOS, 20.5% behind pDPS (Holy sheeez)

TAX: Shield samba mild, cure waltz rarely helps but can help. Scaling crit with devilment might be insanely powerful later in patch cycle.
GOAL: most raid utility potential so should have stronk rDPS even tho its ranged. so Buff 9% bringing it 1.5% behind DRG, but leaving pDPS still 9% behind. Also leaves the door open to not see devilment become as OP later on.
UNIQUE NEEDS: Hella random. standardize some of that crap

CASTERS

BLM: E1 ~ 1.8% behind rDPS wise, ~ 2% ahead pDPS wise
E2 big gap median to 75th from 1% ahead to 4% ahead rDPS wise, 5.4% ahead pDPS

TAX: none
GOAL: raise is such a weird thing. I personally think casters should have a bit better dmg than melee, but weaker defenses, but thats not how this game is really balanced. thus it should be fairly similar.
with the DRG 1% nerf i think it also needs a 2% nerf keeping its E1 values similar but moving its E2 big values much more in line with still the chance to outdo dragoon rDPS wise. Its E1 position is in my mind how it should function IE < 2% behind rdps wise, but > 2% ahead pDPS wise. If raise was made a role BLM will need to drop, but I dont think raise tax should be as high as it is. 500 dps max. which is approximately a 2-4% decrease based on current dps.
UNIQUE NEEDS: none now that I'm aware of.

RDM: E1 ~ 10% behind rDPS wise, ~11.5% behind pDPS wise
E2 9% behind rDPS, 10% pDPS behind

TAX: Raise????Vercure.
GOAL: raise I value at 3% personally. (300-500 dps ish) so it still needs a 6% buff.
UNIQUE NEEDS: class identity?


SMN: E1 ~ 5% behind rDPS wise, 3.8% behind pDPS wise
E2 7.2% behind rDPS wise, 5.5% behind pDPS

TAX: RAISE????
GOAL: raise at 3% needs ~ 4% damage increase.
UNIQUE NEEDS apparently the rotation is janky as F.


MATH OVER YAY ANALYZING NOW, I MIGHT BE A ROBOT

CHANGES

SAM- 4% increase being the goal, bringing Shifu's bonus up to ~18-20 percent (from 13%) which effects most damage sources, OR Jinpu up to 20% would effectively do the trick, OR both to ~15%. For now disregarding other issues the class may have thats what i would suggest to buff them. Apparently one of the teased changes due by 5.1 will be a change to shoha, and a way to gain more mediate stacks. Potency per minute: dps ratio isnt as clean for SAM given much more varied viable SkS. Maybe Scoring a third eye off an appropriate shinten will grant meditate stacks? could be cool.

MNK-Mnk is tough mathematically. because he/she has so many different % dmg boosts at different levels potency is compounded in so many weird ways. I personally think the easiest nerf would come in the form of Riddle of Fire's dmg bonus being reduced from 25% down to 10%. Right now Riddle of fire is responsible for on average 5% of the monks entire output IF that 25% is stacked on the total after GL is applied. If before then the effect is less significant (multiplicative instead of additive). Either way dropping this would make him less bursty and more stable. if multiplicative at maximum effect this nerf would drop his dps by about 3%. So a bit more would be needed, but id feel very unsafe messing with the potencies of his base GCDs.

Additionally tho there are a few QoL upgrades/side-grades monk needs. One of which is for their U.I. to actually track Twin snakes. Second For anatman to also preserve the effect of twin snakes like it does other buffs.

DRG-

NIN-Balanced mathed out gust slash dps increase to 200, which proved correct. Which was 50 potency added to a skill used ~ every seven seconds. This gives us an image of the potency NIN needs to gain to match up the about how much potency per minute needs to be added, But before getting to that lets re apply venomous strikes at a value of 5% closing up the gap immediately. Based on the gap being ~ 1.2kdps the remaining 4% dps gap (about 600 dps) that needs to be closed is approximately 700 dps. 425 potency per minute based ont he above is almost 200 dps increase. So 425*3 = 1275 potency per minute needed to cover the remaining 4% gap. the 5% bonus to that potency comes out at about 63, so lets just say after venomous is added that 1200 potency is still needed per minute to hit the goal. (do the math yourself if you wish but i promise this checks out)

QoL changes with potency evaluated

1: Remove bunny Mudra. Allow missteps to function exactly like dancers. (costs a .5 second wheel spin but doesn't set you back any further) [if combo doesnt make sense/result in a Ninjutsu act as if button was never pushed], Alternately keep bunny, but make it on cast cast Ninjutsu cooldown so you can attempt it again next oGCD slot. TCJ would still need to have bunny removed tho entirely. no effect on potential max dps.

2: Ten Chi Jin triggers effect on Mudra cast with general ~.7 second oGCD cooldown. This removes three button pushes, and effectively reduces the time spent casting the skill(and the immobility) by ~2 seconds (from 5-7 down to 3-5). Total TCJ button count reduced from 7 to 4. this is one extra GCD every 120 seconds. so on average 300 potency gain every 2 minutes, or 150 per minute potency. Goal remaining 1050.

3: Change Mudras as such: Ten=Fuma, Chi=Raiton, Jin=Katon, Ten->Chi=Suiton, Jin->Ten=Doton, Jin->Ten->Chi=Huton.
Hyosho from Fuma, Goka from Katon when Kassatsu-ed.
Hyoton removed.
Dropping Huton is still punishing, but clipping is now less of a problem in general.
TCJ paths remain the same (ie Ten Chi Jin would yield Fuma, Raiton, Suiton as normal etc.) this is effectively 1 extra GCD every 4-6 ninjutsus. for simplicity sake lets consider perfect scenario of 4 on a faster than normal 2.0 GCD NIN (norm is ~ 2.1) due to reduced inputs and clipping this saves 1 gcd every minute and 20 seconds. so 300~ potency per 80 seconds. 225 increase per minute. SO 825 remaining.

4: Fuma 280 potency applies a bleeding debuff called Bloodburst lasting 10 seconds worth 220 potency if triggered before it expires.
Kassatsu-ed Hyosho triggers the effect.
Both moves (Raiton and Fuma) are now used. Fuma is applied before a Kassatsu for a 100 potency gain over Raiton, but if Kassatsu is unavailble Raiton is the better choice at 400 potency. This encourages better Ninjutsu management further as casting Fuma then Kassatsu next ogcd then Hyosho is proper play. Should also be useable after TCJ if #2 is implemented, otherwise window might be too tight for some ping (TCJ=5-7 seconds + GCD with Kassatsu weave 2 seconds, +GCD with cast). TCJ multiplier should not apply to the debuff. kassatsu is once per minute. this change would be 100 per minute. 725 remaining.

5: Throwing Dagger no longer breaks the gcd combo, thus enabling its free use during disconnects. Ninja's do regularly use kunai etc.
long fights maybe require the use of ~ 3 if even that throwing daggers in most of these savages, more use would be seen with this change, but I still estimate this bonus to be extremely minor. regardless lets say 25 potency per minute for simplicity sake. 700 remaining

6: Buff Suiton potency to 150, this makes Meisui really just a Ninki control tool since 40 Ninki =1/2 a 500 potency Bhava. Therefore using Suiton->Meisui is not a potency loss compared to Raiton. 30 potency gain, at maximum of once per minute. probably less. given meisui usage, but occasionally enhanced by TCJ. lets just call it 30 potency gain. 670 per minute remains.

I would next buff DWD by 100 per hit, (300 total gain) 370 remain, then buff assassinate which is a forced direct hit/crit by 100, lets call it 170 cause why not depends on the value of crit a player has and the multipliers.

200 potency per minute remains that probably could most easily be spread onto GCDs. Spinning edge is used every 6.3 seconds ish. if you gave it 20 potency, that would add almost 200 potency per minute. Goal reached.

Gonna be honest im not gonna think that hard about other classes but I will try to put a similar method into it using rework ideas grabbed from other threads. This is gonna take awhile.... Also not every class has a gigabrain behind it in the balance discord that maths things out so well. But yeah the above rework would bring us soundly to 1% less than current dragoon by my estimates.

MCH-
BRD-
DNC-

BLM-
RDM-
SMN-

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leidiriv

The whole thing in the first quest about how we make up for using weaker/lower cost spells by using our body and our blade as an arcane accelerator says hi. We can't use DoTs because we're already using them, just completely frontloading their effects.

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Wow, you really hung your entire argument on that one line, huh.

"To manifest more powerful effects, the first red mages adopted a method by which precise sword techniques would harness and amplify the energy of their spoken incantations -- the mage's own physical form serving as an arcane accelerator. An ingenious way of preserving their self-imposed limitations."

"Arcane accelerator" doesn't mean "when you cast a DoT, the entire thing is one tick dealt upfront" like Thundercloud. He was literally explaining with the most jargon possible that we cast from our body's own reserve of aether as a reminder to keep our spells cheap and calculated, and channel it through our Enchanted melee strikes, rather than just quite literally nuking the battlefield from orbit like a Black Mage.

That literally says nothing that would prevent the application of DoTs. Hell, we could inflict a regular bleed on the target at no consequence.

And let's be honest here: Even if it did mean that, you really think the devs wouldn't just go back and redo that quest text? You think they didn't do that every time a spell like Tri-Disaster Tri-Bind Outburst got renamed or shuffled around in level?
Mechanics aren't made to fit the lore. Lore's written after the mechanics are already made in order to add fluff and flavor to the world, so when an RPer says "why do you do this", they have an explanation that doesn't go into "because the devs thought it would be balanced."
Lore's the single flimsiest justification for mechanics, 'cuz it can be rewritten.

THAT BEING SAID!
I disagree with the addition of a DoT to the RDM kit if it doesn't affect player behavior or interaction with the rotation.
Given that all of our existing skills are designed for instant gratification, adding a DoT to them would just be for a DoT's sake, not a mechanical interaction.
And while I've heard a few people elsewhere suggest a DoT on Reprise, I would hate to see the extra Mana we get from Scorch be completely relegated to DoT maintenance when its intent is to speed up the rotation, not slow down our casting phase by at least three more GCDs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leidiriv

1) Why should RDM be rewarded for poor play/proc management with an even stronger Jolt II?
2) No DoTs, the class quests explain why RDM doesn't use any DoTs and they just plain don't fit with the class's playstyle. Also, Reprise is meant to be that skill for movement phases.
3) Embolden's fine as is, it's currently either the second or third strongest buff in the game, being roughly equivalent to Technical Step (750-800 rDPS in a phys comp)

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It’s not about proc management. It’s to make the job not be punished for bad RNG and simply not having and procs to use. Additionally it would allow the player to more finely finesse the actual white and black mana numbers without taking a hit to their potencies.

Embolden is one of those skills that is only good if the party is planning around it. My raid group does not and I’ve only ever seen them get 200-300 rDPS out of it. Also it’s not helped that we’re running two casters. This means my contribution is hurt because of a lack of 3 other physical DPS.

So ya.
Ninja is STILL crap after this patch.

Pre patch I would do 11-12k dps over 3 minutes to a dummy.
After patch, same exact result over 3 minutes. 11.5k

I'm honestly debating if the nin buffs are only in the notes but not actually IG yet. I literally see zero changes in DPS on ninja right now.

And that should be impossible with that many potency increases.

So, it sounds like SAM is now the 4th strongest melee dps class in the game. way to go SE!!!!!

Proposed SAM changes for 5.1: All SAM abilities are deleted, SAM just builds LB3 gauge constantly and spams that through a fight

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rangar

So, it sounds like SAM is now the 4th strongest melee dps class in the game. way to go SE!!!!!

Proposed SAM changes for 5.1: All SAM abilities are deleted, SAM just builds LB3 gauge constantly and spams that through a fight

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Tbh that would be hilarious. Not fun to play, but really absurd to watch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rangar

So, it sounds like SAM is now the 4th strongest melee dps class in the game. way to go SE!!!!!

Proposed SAM changes for 5.1: All SAM abilities are deleted, SAM just builds LB3 gauge constantly and spams that through a fight

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According to rdps or pdps? If its pdps that pretty much sucks.

SAM: Critical Focus: Every 60 secs after 1st cast of Iaijutsu enter a state where all dmg is critical for 10 seconds.

In seriousness though just delete the job SE obviously too chicken to do the job justice so stop jebaiting people. Let us know to pick another job or play another game instead of investing time in a meme class reason why I dropped this game in 4.1.

Delete NIN too if this is how we are getting treated.

Could be worse you guys could be Memerais

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Dancer

- Flourish (the ability) also forces the flourished abilities to have 100% chance of granting Fourfold Feather, instead of their usual 50% - This would be amazing because it would remove the need of hoarding feathers for the TS burst phase, since you can supply them with this change. I don't think it's an intentional design to spend most of your time treating your Feather gauge as if it had just 1 slot (since you NEED to "save" the other 3 slots for burst phase);

- Saber Dance becoming an oGCD, but having a 5s recast timer. This change would be GREAT for the people that are really unlucky with their Feather procs. The DNC rotation feels extremely dull when you don't have Feathers to weave in Fan Dances;

- Improvisation granting also a 10% DH bonus. It's currently extremely useless mainly because it's just not a reliable source of Esprit. You'd be doing more dps with your normal rotation instead and the moments where there's nothing to attack are very rare. The healing buff is nice, but again at cost of dps and it always seems like overkill.

- Curing Waltz range doubled. It's already a weak ability as it is.

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Building off of this:

Curing Waltz and Shield Samba are usable during Dances. Sometimes I want Shield Samba up for a certain mechanic, but I'm also in the middle of Dancing, so I can't. It's just annoying.

Esprit gain for Improv is set at 5 base, and then adds 5 per person. I don't think adding DH bonus will do anything.

As a future skill, I'd like another Dance that has a 2min cooldown, boosts yourself and your Dance Partner by 15%, but can't stack with Technical. Gives you another smaller burst every minute (or every other TA).

Reverse Cascade and Fountinfall are also AoEs with initial hit on target, but really high falloff. This makes those abilities more useful in AoE situations. Additionally, the falloff damage of Bloodshower and Rising Windmill is at 30% instead of 50%.

https://images-ext-2.discordapp.net/...768&height=479

According to some quick math that was done, the balancing for melee has improved. NIN is back in the mix. SAM is still about 400 rDPS short of where it should be, but much better than before. For SAM, I'd say another potency buff in 5.1 will do the trick. That said, this is just speculation as the patch was just done today and the enough raw data hasn't been collected yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leifei

https://images-ext-2.discordapp.net/...768&height=479

According to some quick math that was done, the balancing for melee has improved. NIN is back in the mix. SAM is still about 400 rDPS short of where it should be, but much better than before. For SAM, I'd say another potency buff in 5.1 will do the trick. That said, this is just speculation as the patch was just done today and the enough raw data hasn't been collected yet.

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To be honest, I'd still just prefer to see MNK, DRG, and BLM nerfed a bit at this point. The power creep just feels so damn rampant this expansion. We're at the point where we just shrug off numbers like 1200 potency like they're nothing, and we keep losing internal balance as a neglected byproduct.

Heck, Dragon Kick now as much potency (via Leaden Fist) as Tornado Kick, and more than Six-Sided Star. And what's next for SAM, 500-potency Kasha/Gekko (effectively 628 due to Kenki generation), likely leaving Yaten-Enpi behind? Or do we buff Shinten, likely while forgetting all about Seigan and unwittingly increasing the potency cost of movement via Gyoten and Yaten?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TaiyouSeishin

According to rdps or pdps? If its pdps that pretty much sucks.

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I think it was meant as a joke, or to point out than NIN now deals more (r)DPS than SAM, seeing as there are only 4 melee...

But it's not as if "fourth" ever meant anything anyways, unless we're talking about pDPS on a pDPS-only job. It's just whether SAM is 4th in rDPS by a gap of a few, a few dozen, a few score, or a few hundred from the 3rd and 1st...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I think it was meant as a joke, or to point out than NIN now deals more (r)DPS than SAM, seeing as there are only 4 melee...

But it's not as if "fourth" ever meant anything anyways, unless we're talking about pDPS on a pDPS-only job. It's just whether SAM is 4th in rDPS by a gap of a few, a few dozen, a few score, or a few hundred from the 3rd and 1st...

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*shrug* its why i asked

I have no opinion on changes to job mechanics, so I'll be providing a simple opinion on damage:

rDPS in categories from highest to lowest:

NIN/DRG:
- pDPS tax for damage buffs
MNK/SMN:
-pDPS tax for damage buffs
-rDPS tax for mantra/raise
-raise is a strong utility, but not spammable as with a RDM, and devotion is very weak compared to brotherhood, hence the same category
BRD/RDM/DNC:
-pDPS tax for damage buffs
-rDPS tax b/c of various utility and mobility (BRD/DNC) (see below)
-rDPS tax for vercure*** and strongest raise potential in the game
SAM/BLM/MCH:
-MCH about 150-250 behind BLM and SAM accounting for mechanics.
-MCH is lower because of mobility tax, which is a pretty small advantage in modern Savage and can at times be a disadvantage (e.g. raid expects ranged to carry mechanics the furthest, meaning they have a much smaller window to get back in time for AoE healing; melee only go to max melee range to drop mechanics, lots of finger spaghetti when moving for prolonged periods, certain camera type configurations can turn character around when moving away, requiring you to jump while doing rotation).
-rDPS tax for all three for having the highest pDPS.

The rDPS difference between NIN/DRG (highest) and MCH (lowest) should be about 500-600 around 90th percentile.

pDPS order:
SAM/BLM
MCH
MNK/SMN
NIN/DRG
BRD/RDM/DNC

Edit: I'm making an edit because of how many people met with disapproval over my inclusion of vercure. While I think vercure is fine the way it is and doesn't really need to be taxed at all, or perhaps with only 10-20 dps (it's still a targetable, at-will healing ability that can save a party member and therefore wholly superior to second wind or similar abilities), the developers will almost certainly see this differently because of its profound potential to impact casual content such as dungeons or Eureka. Changing vercure to an instant and targetable (including self - I'm looking at you, erase) version of second wind with a lower cooldown (let's say 60s) would help convince them to stop taxing so heavily for it and help RDM keep some of its identity.

If you want my personal opinion about vercure, I couldn't possibly care less if it's taxed at all. I think it's a fun ability for RDM in non-Savage and I want them to have it. It comes into play only rarely and I don't think it bothers most other DPS job mains for not having something comparable. I just don't think the devs will change their philosophy on its importance, unfortunately. I hope that they do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miralyth

snip

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Yes! This SO much! That is balance!

A tax for vercure? The tax for vercure is using vercure lol. It's Cure 1 at a much higher opportunity cost than White Mage's own Cure 1 lmao

If we're seriously taxing for Vercure.... what's next, Second Wind tax?

5.1 Patch Notes:

"Buffs/greased lightning stacks/stances/whatevers no longer tick down during in-battle cutscenes"

I'd sacrifice a lot for this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miralyth

I have no opinion on changes to job mechanics, so I'll be providing a simple opinion on damage:

rDPS in categories from highest to lowest:
BRD/RDM/DNC:
-rDPS tax for vercure and strongest raise potential in the game

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Just to leave the "raise potential" discussion alone for a minute:

There's no advantage in having the RDM use Vercure. It's on the GCD, it has an MP cost and cast time (half the time), every cast is time the RDM is not dealing damage and its output is weaker than a basic Cure/Physick/Benefic.

Does it have niche uses in raid content? Sure, but not even as frequently as Verraise; you would literally only use Vercure to off-heal if both healers were incapacitated.

We accept that there's a tax on Verraise because we can most consistently reduce the cast time to a single GCD, rather than its usual 4. To say nothing of the resources it saves healers, or the increased uptime for players who don't have to wait on someone's Swiftcast to come off CD, that's 3 GCDs we personally skip on every cast.

Using Vercure is its own tax.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miralyth

I have no opinion on changes to job mechanics, so I'll be providing a simple opinion on damage:

rDPS in categories from highest to lowest:
BRD/RDM/DNC:
-rDPS tax for vercure and strongest raise potential in the game

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Clemency does double the potency in healing and PLD is highest to 2nd highest in terms of DPS between tanks. The act of casting a Heal on the GCD and not having and OGCD heal is the Tax.

Vercure (like all potency based healing) received a second handed nerf this expac. With the additional HP granted by accessories now, it heals for ~15% the RDM's HP instead of 20%, putting itself even further behind from Manawards utility.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miralyth

I have no opinion on changes to job mechanics, so I'll be providing a simple opinion on damage:

rDPS in categories from highest to lowest:

NIN/DRG:
- pDPS tax for damage buffs
MNK/SMN:
-pDPS tax for damage buffs
-rDPS tax for mantra/raise
-raise is a strong utility, but not spammable as with a RDM, and devotion is very weak compared to brotherhood, hence the same category
BRD/RDM/DNC:
-pDPS tax for damage buffs
-rDPS tax b/c of various utility and mobility (BRD/DNC) (see below)
-rDPS tax for vercure and strongest raise potential in the game
SAM/BLM/MCH:
-MCH about 150-250 behind BLM and SAM accounting for mechanics.
-MCH is lower because of mobility tax, which is a pretty small advantage in modern Savage and can at times be a disadvantage (e.g. raid expects ranged to carry mechanics the furthest, meaning they have a much smaller window to get back in time for AoE healing; melee only go to max melee range to drop mechanics, lots of finger spaghetti when moving for prolonged periods, certain camera type configurations can turn character around when moving away, requiring you to jump while doing rotation).
-rDPS tax for all three for having the highest pDPS.

The rDPS difference between NIN/DRG (highest) and MCH (lowest) should be about 500-600 around 90th percentile.

pDPS order:
SAM/BLM
MCH
MNK/SMN
NIN/DRG
BRD/RDM/DNC

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YES SQUARE ENIX LISTEN TO THIS GUY PLEASE DAMN HOW HARD IS IT TO READ AND LISTEN TO THR PLAYERS. This is 100% how the order should be! Sam-blm-mch-mnk-smn. But we all know they won’t listen or care. Specially when yoshi mains blm. Lmao the creator is 2nd to none!