(Spoiler) About amaurots downfall

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Darkness is not synonymous with evil in the FFXIV universe. It is more representative of activity and chaos than it is anything inherently evil. If you ask me, it makes quite a bit of sense that the living embodiment of the will of the planet would be aligned toward those things. A planet is a living, breathing thing that changes constantly.

---

I feel like this could actually be a key element of what happened.

"The will of the star should represent life and activity, so we should base it around the aspect of Darkness," reason the members of the Convocation.

"But wait," says the fourteenth, "is it a good idea for it to be just Darkness? Shouldn't we balance it with an aspect of Light as well?"

The others refuse, the fourteenth leaves and starts working out how to create a counterpart balance that can 'add on' to Zodiark after the initial summoning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

I was more referring to the unfortunate trend of many a poster around these parts being rather desperate to have her be pure and righteous, justified in all that she does - thus, from their perspective, they would be fond of the idea of the Ancients being the harbingers of their own annihilation so they can argue that what Hydaelyn went on to do was a necessity and not the complete erasure of an entire society and race of people.

---

No many of us (me included) just dont see a reason right now why we should outright kill her just because some want humanity all alone (even though its mostly is without Ascians doing their things). We dont say that she is 100% completely good but just because she is some kind of primal and has not told us all, does not suddenly make her evil either. So as long as there is nothing in the future story that makes it necessary then no we have the rights to belief in her and to defend her. Especially since (unlike Zodiark) we know of her thoughts which can be seen in the song Answer. We also have a whole bunch of her actions which seems good towards the existing races. Believe what you want since its all just speculation anyway but the story right now still has her in the good camp.

SE has gone out of their way to show that its not all a paradise. They could have easily made us believe otherwise but they went out of their way with speech bubbles and quests that showed that these Ancient beings were quite flawed too. And its at least confirmed by the dungeon itself that the catastrophe was made worse by the Ancients because of their fear. If they somehow also had a hand in starting it is unknown but they at least made it worse. Its also shown that Amaurot did nothing to help until it was at their doorstep (this is also shown in a quest) and it was Ancient ones that summoned Hydealyn. Ancient ones that knew their people, ancient ones that were also powerful and had the knowledge. Ancient ones that lived under the same morality and rules then the Ascians. And yet even some of them decided that enough was enough. It was a part of the Ancients themselves that decided this. Not Hydealyn, not our races. So seemingly they knew more than we do. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

they went out of their way with speech bubbles and quests that showed that these Ancient beings were quite flawed too. And its at least confirmed by the dungeon itself that the catastrophe was made worse by the Ancients because of their fear. If they somehow also had a hand in starting it is unknown but they at least made it worse.

---

While they do have potential flaws and their society isn't portrayed as perfect, I wouldn't consider this a flaw (ie. a negative character trait). Rather it's an uncontrollable part of their nature that they can't be blamed for.

Their more conscious use of creation magic might be viewed differently, depending on more information we don't have yet, but if just thinking of something terrifying is enough to cause that thing to spontaneously come into true existance, and once they've had the thought it's too late, there's not a great deal they can do about it besides try very hard to not let anyone think of terrifying things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

While they do have potential flaws and their society isn't portrayed as perfect, I wouldn't consider this a flaw (ie. a negative character trait). Rather it's an uncontrollable part of their nature that they can't be blamed for.

Their more conscious use of creation magic might be viewed differently, depending on more information we don't have yet, but if just thinking of something terrifying is enough to cause that thing to spontaneously come into true existance, and once they've had the thought it's too late, there's not a great deal they can do about it besides try very hard to not let anyone think of terrifying things.

---

Of course if it was started by something else and they had no chance at all to stop their fears from creating these things that I will say that its 100% not their fault (but I will remain on the point that they in Amaurot still choose to ignore the other cities until its too late). But the side dungeon about that missing monster does imo show that they are simply not handling strange situations that well. When you run through that dungeon the monsters have broken free and seemingly they all run around in pure fear instead of doing something. And these are just the monsters that they probably have created and studied. Why are they running away or hiding in fear? They are really powerful beings shouldnt they just be fine with it? If they often react to something unwanted like that then I can see that they might have made the calamity even worse. And on top of that the NPC that lets you in tries to downplay what happens there too. Like they would not accept that this could have happened. (And released a huge terrible monster into the realm)

Maybe (of course pure speculation) with all their need to conceal themselves, to act as one instead of letting individuality flow they have stopped themselves from getting over such stuff. Maybe they are so used to everything being in control and believing that they thus have everything in control (even though just one small change in thought changes their invention) that any bigger threat just leaves them helpless.

This thread reminded me of a plot point in ARR that I don’t think has been re-addressed yet.

Remember when Midgardsormr sealed our blessing? We assumed he did it because we were draining too much aether from Hydaelyn, but it’s now looking more and more likely that this wasn’t the case.

I’m beginning to wonder a few things.

1) Consider that the people of Amarout had vast power, but they also didn’t know hardship. They kept kicking the can down the road even after all the signs of an impending threat, then got completely blindsided. I wonder if Midgardsormr’s trial was a way to prevent complacency in us, and force us to adapt and stay vigilant. When we regain the blessing, we came out of the experience much stronger as a result. Perhaps we suffer in order to find strength we didn’t know we had.

As a bonus, the sealing also did cause several Ascians to underestimate us enough to kick us aside, rather than immediately killing us. The first time it happened with Nairbrales with us later killing him, the other Ascians recognized it as a problem, but otherwise continued as they were. The second time around, we ended up regaining our blessing not soon after, and only then did the two Ascians try to kill us, only to end up dying too.

2) The vision of the dark crystal we had. Hydaelyn did speak to us during that, but I wonder if it was actually a memory from the past?

3) Going off my first point, I wonder if Hydaelyn knows more about the threat that ended Amarout. If Hydaelyn’s only purpose was to keep Zodiark in check, there were probably far more efficient ways than to literally split all of reality (and somehow have three Overlords escape with all their memories intact). Maybe it was also an effort to split whatever was responsible for the disaster, to buy time to learn more about what it really was AND try to raise champions that would be better equipped to fight it at a moment’s notice, in case it ever came back.

After all, one could say Amarout was undone by communal inaction. Emet-Selch (or perhaps Amarout society in general) seemed to have a particular disdain for heroes, but it might have been what was needed to combat the threat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

As a bonus, the sealing also did cause several Ascians to underestimate us enough to kick us aside, rather than immediately killing us. The first time it happened with Nairbrales with us later killing him, the other Ascians recognized it as a problem, but otherwise continued as they were. The second time around, we ended up regaining our blessing not soon after, and only then did the two Ascians try to kill us, only to end up dying too.

---

Tangentially, I like that Shadowbringers does explain why the Ascians seemed rather unmoved by Nabriales's death (and previously Emmerololth, and then Mitron and Loghrif). For Sundered Ascians, the reaction to their demise was literally "no worries, more where they came from".

Meanwhile Lahabrea's death was waved aside through the explanation of "well, nobody liked him anyway".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edax

According to the wiki : "At some point, a mysterious "sound" emanating from the depths of their star caused the Ancients to lose control of their Creation magic, unleashing monsters formed from their subconscious fears. "

---

Does anyone remember where this was said in game? I vaguely remember something to that effect, but I also remember the catastrophe starting on the other side of the planet. Just want to make sure I haven't missed something.

Also speculation on my part, but they did snatch Archaeotania and bring it directly into the heart of their city - and unless it breaking out is just a product of Emet's illusions going awry, it may well have broken out in Ancient times too. Makes me wonder if that might have really been the start of things going sideways in Amaurot proper. Or a catalyst to make things much worse for them... taking the disease they're trying to cure and (unintentionally) letting it loose where it can cause the most damage.

Could be off base there though lmao

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avidria

Does anyone remember where this was said in game? I vaguely remember something to that effect, but I also remember the catastrophe starting on the other side of the planet. Just want to make sure I haven't missed something.

---

It was stated in MSQ dialogue, yes. During the part where you first explore Amaurot, and talk with some unnamed Amaurotines about the "current" (to them) situation. The NPC in specific is called "Anxious Amaurotine", during the quest "The End of a World".

Quote:

---

Good gracious, child, where is your family? You should not be alone at a time like this. Run along home. Quickly now!

Have you not heard? Though yet confined to the lands across the sea, a terrible phenomenon afflicts our star. They are calling it the "Final Days".

'Tis said it starts suddenly, a cacophonous keening from beneath the earth. The sound distorts all living things within earshot, and wrests from us control of our creation magicks.

Once that happens, all is lost. Fear, pain, despair... every dread impulse is siphoned from our minds and given substance: an eternal fall of fiery rain; an incessant spawning of nightmarish beasts...

None can point to the source of the phenomenon. 'Tis as if the star itself has fallen ill -- as if a force inimical to life now festers and spreads.

'Tis only a matter of time until Amaurot, too, resounds to that discordant squall. You should stay with your loved ones, child... Stay with them...

---

Please tell me I'm not the only one to immediately think of Lavos.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YianKutku

Tangentially, I like that Shadowbringers does explain why the Ascians seemed rather unmoved by Nabriales's death (and previously Emmerololth, and then Mitron and Loghrif). For Sundered Ascians, the reaction to their demise was literally "no worries, more where they came from".

Meanwhile Lahabrea's death was waved aside through the explanation of "well, nobody liked him anyway".

---

Of those, only Nabriales is really confirmed dead. Emmerololth, Mitron and Loghrif's permanent destruction is speculative at this point in time, and Lahabrea, we just assume that Nidhogg's Eyes sufficed to do the trick.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

While they do have potential flaws and their society isn't portrayed as perfect, I wouldn't consider this a flaw (ie. a negative character trait). Rather it's an uncontrollable part of their nature that they can't be blamed for.

Their more conscious use of creation magic might be viewed differently, depending on more information we don't have yet, but if just thinking of something terrifying is enough to cause that thing to spontaneously come into true existance, and once they've had the thought it's too late, there's not a great deal they can do about it besides try very hard to not let anyone think of terrifying things.

---

In my view, whilst there are obviously flaws, some of them are no doubt aspects of their society that strike us as strange but which made sense to them, and therefore it is down to their unfamiliarity that we call them "flaws". I also think that the exercise of Creation magicks was quite a deliberate act and one they had learnt to be responsible and cautious about, in the main. I imagine there was little risk from regular thought running amok in that way, which is why it took that odd sound for matters to go awry, so I agree, you can't really blame them for the course of events given what we know so far.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

I feel like this could actually be a key element of what happened.

"The will of the star should represent life and activity, so we should base it around the aspect of Darkness," reason the members of the Convocation.

"But wait," says the fourteenth, "is it a good idea for it to be just Darkness? Shouldn't we balance it with an aspect of Light as well?"

The others refuse, the fourteenth leaves and starts working out how to create a counterpart balance that can 'add on' to Zodiark after the initial summoning.

---

I think that take on Darkness actually makes quite some sense, and it avoids pushing the Convocation into a nefarious position, or just making it something ad hoc, like the influence on the aether of those monstrosities being present at the time of the summoning. I also like to think that the enervation aspect and their constant warring ended up going too far, with the whole Sundering on the scale it occurred being unintentional; however, Elidibus mentions it and the subsequent memory wipe with regard to it was quite expressly intended - but maybe that was only after things went into overdrive and there was not much else that could be done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YianKutku

It was stated in MSQ dialogue, yes. During the part where you first explore Amaurot, and talk with some unnamed Amaurotines about the "current" (to them) situation. The NPC in specific is called "Anxious Amaurotine", during the quest "The End of a World".



Please tell me I'm not the only one to immediately think of Lavos.

---

Oh snap, can't believe I missed that. I remember talking to him but apparently my brain just decided to chuck that information out the window xD Thanks!

On the whole, a pretty horrifying fate. It does make me wonder about more things, though. Heck, I just have a ton of questions, can't even list them all... very curious to see what answers we get, though.

Also, not familiar with Lavos, but after a skim of the wiki that would certainly be an interesting way to go.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

In my view, whilst there are obviously flaws, some of them are no doubt aspects of their society that strike us as strange but which made sense to them, and therefore it is down to their unfamiliarity that we call them "flaws". I also think that the exercise of Creation magicks was quite a deliberate act and one they had learnt to be responsible and cautious about, in the main. I imagine there was little risk from regular thought running amok in that way, which is why it took that odd sound for matters to go awry, so I agree, you can't really blame them for the course of events given what we know so far.

---

I kind of got the impression they had to be cautious and careful with their creation power out of necessity. They seemed to have strict rules on what 'creations' could or couldn't be shared (likely to keep dangerous things in check), and based on what Hythlodaeus said and on the side quest to test that one Amaurotine's creations, their creations did seem prone to going in unintended directions. Nowhere near the level of sideways that things went when they lost control entirely, though - so I wouldn't blame them (barring some new revelation we haven't seen yet), only say that they seemed almost primed for this type of catastrophe.

A very powerful people, able to bring everything from buildings to lifeforms into existence with thought and personal aether alone, whose stray thought is enough to alter that creation like a stray brush stroke changes a painting? For something like that Sound, their city was just kindling waiting for the right fire.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

No many of us (me included) just dont see a reason right now why we should outright kill her just because some want humanity all alone (even though its mostly is without Ascians doing their things).)

---

Who is saying that she should be outright killed? I mean isn't that a strawman argument?

It is less about wanting Hydaelyn dead and more about wanting her to actually be held responsible for her actions. I.e. we do not want her to be absolved of all wrongdoing in the downfall of the world as it once was. We feel the story would be far more compelling if she herself - and her champion by relation - turned out to be just as guilty as her contemporaries. The people saying we should kill her outright are a very small minority.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

It is less about wanting Hydaelyn dead and more about wanting her to actually be held responsible for her actions. I.e. we do not want her to be absolved of all wrongdoing in the downfall of the world as it once was. We feel the story would be far more compelling if she herself - and her champion by relation - turned out to be just as guilty as her contemporaries. The people saying we should kill her outright are a very small minority.

---

"just as guilty" of what, though? She's entirely responsible for the world's current state as a localized multiverse, and shares no credit for that with anyone else as far as we know. But I don't see where the wrong that she's guilty of comes in? It was the only way she could defeat Zodiark, who basically wanted to take the unsundered world all under his sway and would ultimately eat a bunch of sentient people in it. I mean, as far as we've seen, even according to the Ascians, Hydaelyn was no match for Zodiark otherwise. It was her only option if he was to be beaten. The alternative was that he wasn't beaten and future generations of sentient life (that was non-Ancient/Ascian) were going to be born simply to ultimately die in a sacrifice to him, never knowing lives free of that threat. Hydaelyn averted that. Personally, I'm ok with her actions in the scenario we've been given so far. "Best of bad options" comes to mind.

And this comes from someone sympathetic to the Ancients themselves. I would like a happy ending where the remaining Ascians are freed of Zodiark's tempering and any of their people that can be recovered (assuming they really are "sleeping" in some manner as opposed to being dead and gone) are recovered. They can have a continent or a pocket dimension of their very own, and continue on as a people. I'd love an "Everybody lives!" ending. But Zodiark needs to either be taken out or recalibrated so he's not a threat to people anymore. Zodiark, as he currently is, cannot be suffered to exist, imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleluia

"just as guilty" of what, though? She's entirely responsible for the world's current state as a localized multiverse, and shares no credit for that with anyone else as far as we know. But I don't see where the wrong that she's guilty of comes in? It was the only way she could defeat Zodiark, who basically wanted to take the unsundered world all under his sway and would ultimately eat a bunch of sentient people in it. I mean, as far as we've seen, even according to the Ascians, Hydaelyn was no match for Zodiark otherwise. It was her only option if he was to be beaten. The alternative was that he wasn't beaten and future generations of sentient life (that was non-Ancient/Ascian) were going to be born simply to ultimately die in a sacrifice to him, never knowing lives free of that threat. Hydaelyn averted that. Personally, I'm ok with her actions in the scenario we've been given so far. "Best of bad options" comes to mind.

And this comes from someone sympathetic to the Ancients themselves. I would like a happy ending where the remaining Ascians are freed of Zodiark's tempering and any of their people that can be recovered (assuming they really are "sleeping" in some manner as opposed to being dead and gone) are recovered. They can have a continent or a pocket dimension of their very own, and continue on as a people. I'd love an "Everybody lives!" ending. But Zodiark needs to either be taken out or recalibrated so he's not a threat to people anymore. Zodiark, as he currently is, cannot be suffered to exist, imo.

---

Ascians and Ancients are two separate categories. The Ascians refer specifically to those few Zodiark loyalists that remain extant.

That covered, I have one question: Can you refer me to where you got any information suggesting that Zodiark was out for conquest or consumption?

To my knowledge we've zero reason at this time to believe Zodiark was anything other than exactly what they summoned him to be. All planned sacrifices appear to have been entirely the idea of the Ancients--later Ascians--to save the world, repopulate the world, and then save those heroic figures that sacrificed themselves in the same of repairing and healing their world. The first set of sacrifices were necessary so that Zodiark would even exist, whilst the second either re-summoned him or restored enough of his power for him to be able to both restore the land's ability to sustain life and repopulate it with the myriad of non-sapient life we see on the Source (and its shards) today. We do not at this time know whether or not he created sapient life. The third and final sacrifice would have taken the lion's share of that new life, presumably after it had been given enough time to experience a significant population boon, and exchange it for the souls of those heroic Ancients that willingly gave their lives for the salvation of their world.

Tl;dr: It is never suggested that Zodiark wanted to control the world, to consume the world, etc. We don't know what, if anything, the entity wanted. All we know is that the Ancients willingly made sacrifices so it would have the power to do what they wanted it to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Ascians and Ancients are two separate categories. The Ascians refer specifically to those few Zodiark loyalists that remain extant.

That covered, I have one question: Can you refer me to where you got any information suggesting that Zodiark was out for conquest or consumption? To my knowledge we've zero reason at this time to believe Zodiark was anything other than exactly what they summoned him to be. All planned sacrifices appear to have been entirely the idea of the Ancients--later Ascians--to save the world, repopulate the world, and then save those heroic figures that sacrificed themselves in the same of repairing and healing their world.

---

My thinking is this: Pre-sundering, Zodiark did nothing to dissuade his followers from their plan of "Let's raise several generations of sentient life so they can be sacrificed in a big batch to bring back our dead." They are tempered. If he didn't want them to do that plan, they wouldn't be doing that plan. Therefore, he wants the plan, and by extension wants the complete dominion over the unsundered world that that plan would require. His followers aren't going to suffer someone else to counter their sacrifice plan, after all. Therefore, there can be no other true powers besides Zodiark allowed.

As for all planned sacrifices being entirely the idea of the Ancients, I don't think we actually know this for a fact. We know they planned sacrifice number 1 before doomsday, but I don't think we actually know when plan 2 and 3 were made, and they could potentially have been conceived after the Ascians were tempered. Though, please, if I'm wrong, source me some info on it. Cus I could be wrong. But whether I'm right or you are about when plans 2 and 3 were thought up, Zodiark was still in charge once he tempered them in plan 1. So my previous reasoning still stands.

And I don't know why you are explaining the difference btwn Ancients and Ascians to me. I know what I said and I'm fairly certain I used both terms correctly in that quote. lol

There is none the less nothing that would currently suggest Zodiark had any control over the matter. We've seen numerous instances of tempered individuals doing things their primal either doesn't know about or doesn't condone. Even Ramuh, a primal expressly opposed to both tempering and sacrifices, involuntarily tempered a bunch of sylphs that then kept doing things - including amassing more crystals - in his name.

So uh.. Last question, I guess. Where do people keep getting the idea that the life created by Zodiark was sentient and/or sapient? There's no evidence one way or the other yet.

From a logical standpoint, if Hydaelyn is being given the benefit of doubt then it stands to reason that Zodiark should be as well. We've yet to actually hear Zodiark's side of things and what Hydaelyn pushed as the 'truth' has since turned out to be a lie. If an argument can be made for her lies to be a necessity for the sake of the greater good then you might as well petition for the Archbishop of Ishgard to be brought back given that he had the exact same viewpoint.

On my end, I am of the belief that the most interesting approach and fairest compromise would be for both Zodiark and Hydaelyn to be a necessity for the sake of balance or for both of them to need to be removed very carefully and thus end up as boss fights.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

There is none the less nothing that would currently suggest Zodiark had any control over the matter. We've seen numerous instances of tempered individuals doing things their primal either doesn't know about or doesn't condone. Even Ramuh, a primal expressly opposed to both tempering and sacrifices, involuntarily tempered a bunch of sylphs that then kept doing things - including amassing more crystals - in his name.

---

Ok, so its been a while since I fought Ramuh, but I looked up his pre- and post- battle cutscenes and I see nothing indicating he has involuntarily tempered people, is against tempering, or wishes his purple sylphjs wouldn't kidnap green ones to bring to him. I assume you have a source in mind for the information, though. Could you please link me or direct me to where this is stated?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

So uh.. Last question, I guess. Where do people keep getting the idea that the life created by Zodiark was sentient and/or sapient? There's no evidence one way or the other yet.

---

I wasn't saying Zodiark created the sentient life necessarily. Its possible the sentient life existed before The Doom(tm) and he just restored more of it when he fixed the world during Phase 2.

I do think that the life around pre-sundering included the sentient peoples we know today, and we know that b/c they exist on all shards. This means they must have been present in the world before the sundering. As opposed to having independently evolved in the 12 thousand years since the sundering, cus then they'd be exclusive to their own home shard and that's it.

And my thinking on how we know they would be sacrificing the existing sentient life in Phase 3 is a few things, strongest of which is that it'd be pretty silly for the untempered Ancients to summon Hydaelyn and sunder the world just to protect a bunch of non-sentient flowers and algae.

Zodiark is never credited with creating life as far as I can tell. He is credited with regenerating the physical world so life could live on it after he stopped the Last Days. Then the Convocation of Thirteen decided that they would let the life on the world continue to develop until there was enough aether to sacrifice to Zoidark to get the 75% of the Ancient population that was sacrificed to Zoidark back.

Never mind that so far there has never been any mention of Zoidark (or any other Priaml for that matter) releasing back the aether they have already absorbed until they are killed. And given that in order to summon Zoidark it took the aether of the 50% of the Ancient population... I have a hard time seeing anything giving Zoidark enough aether at par with the Ancient's aether to keep him going and get the Ancients back other then the aether of other Ancients. Or at the very least the aether of other sentient life.

No matter what is getting sacrificed to Zoidark, there seems to be the start of a cycle of "sacrifice enough aether to be most of the population of a planet to get something from him". With the "something" people are getting from Zoidark being anything from rewritten laws of reality to a restored physical world to the souls of people already sacrificed to him. Where does that kind of sacrifice system stop?

Or to quote someone else in the game on the topic of people being dependent on (false) gods...

Quote:

---

In Eorzea, the beast tribes often summon gods to fight in their stead─though your comrades only rarely respond in kind. Which is strange, is it not?
Are the “Twelve” otherwise engaged? I was given to understand they were your protectors. If you truly believe them your guardians, why do you not repeat the trick that served you so well at Carteneau, and call them down?
They will answer─so long as you lavish them with crystals and gorge them on aether.
Your gods are no different from those of the beasts─eikons every one. Accept but this, and you will see how Eorzea's faith is bleeding the land dry.

---

Quote:

---

The subjects of a weak ruler must needs look to a higher power for providence...and their dependence comes at a cost to the realm.
The misguided elevate the frail... And the frail lead the people astray.
Unless a man of power wrests control...the cycle will never be broken.
You... You of all people must see the truth in this. You who have the strength to rule...

---

Substitute Eorzea with Amarot, the Beast Tribes with the Convocation of Thirteen and the Eikons with Zoidark and you pretty much have Gaius describing exactly what the situation was after Zodiark was summoned is. Complete with other people deciding the cycle had gone on long enough and breaking it...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Tl;dr: It is never suggested that Zodiark wanted to control the world, to consume the world, etc. We don't know what, if anything, the entity wanted. All we know is that the Ancients willingly made sacrifices so it would have the power to do what they wanted it to.

---

My position is that it is irrelevant what Zodiark wants (until we get to actually meet him), just as it is irrelevant what Hydaelyn wants.

What matters is what their representatives do. Hydaelyn has had evil representatives, such as the much-mentioned Ajora of Ivalician history. But Hydaelyn has also had good representatives, like our player characters as the Warrior of Light. (Whereby "good" is defined in this context as "acts to try to reduce and alleviate suffering as a goal", and "evil" is defined as "acts to try to increase and exacerbate suffering as a goal".)

Meanwhile, all of Zodiark's known representatives are evil.

This could be because all of Zodiark's known representatives are Ascians, and we have yet to see a non-Ascian representative of Zodiark. And the Ascians are all deliberately and intentionally acting in ways inimical to the present life on the Source and the Shards.

Whether or not Zodiark approves of their actions or otherwise, we still need to stop the Ascians. And my position has always been that; up until Shadowbringers, I have not mentioned anything relating to judgment of Zodiark's personal actions. With Shadowbringers, I have begun to look askance at the apparent necessity of Zodiark requiring half of the population of the Ancients to stop their apocalypse, but I'm also reserving judgment until we find out why this was apparently the Only Way Forward.

And whatever Hydaelyn says or does (or did), what mattered was what we did. Hydaelyn made her wishes known, but it was the free will of the Warrior of Light and Minfilia and the Zodiac Braves of Ivalice and so on that had a tangible effect on the world. We carry out what Hydaelyn claims to be her will, because it was stuff we were going to do anyway. It reduces and alleviates suffering, which the game (and many moral systems) present as "good".

So if Hydaelyn hypothetically asks us to act in ways that increase suffering, and Zodiark asks us to act in ways that reduce suffering, then sure, we can switch patron crystals. But until then, it's unsupported by any evidence, and based entirely on wishful "what if".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Who is saying that she should be outright killed? I mean isn't that a strawman argument?

---

There are people here, especially on team #NoCrystal that wants her killed already just because she did not tell us the whole truth and because she is a primal and humanity should rule alone over their own destiny. One was the one I quoted. And there has been a few others who also call us out now just because we defend her and still think her as good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

There are people here, especially on team #NoCrystal that wants her killed already just because she did not tell us the whole truth and because she is a primal and humanity should rule alone over their own destiny. One was the one I quoted. And there has been a few others who also call us out now just because we defend her and still think her as good.

---

Finally, XIV's story board has its own faction war.

Hydaelyn exists to keep Zodiark in check and protect new life from being 'harvested' as a sacrifice to Zodiark. The consequences might have been severe but it seems that that was the only option to effectively remove Zodiark as a threat. Frankly I am still not ruling out the possibility that the calamity was caused by usage of the Creation magics the Ancients used. I suspect that if Zodiark was removed from the equation, Hydaelyn might very well remove herself. It wouldn't be the first time we have seen a Primal work to remove itself when it deemed itself counter to its purpose. Alexander is an example.

Regardless, Hydaelyn is currently necessary. The Ascians plan would require everyone on the Source to die, even if we ignore the fact it would also wipe out everyone on every other world. Until a solution to remove Zodiark permanently as a threat is reached, we need Hydaelyn around to insure he is kept in check in case there is any change in how things currently are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

There are people here, especially on team #NoCrystal that wants her killed already just because she did not tell us the whole truth and because she is a primal and humanity should rule alone over their own destiny. One was the one I quoted. And there has been a few others who also call us out now just because we defend her and still think her as good.

---

I don't think that #nocrystal = outright killing. That's a hasty generalization. Now there are people that just don't like primals and want to see the fights since that's what this game has set up the player to do - kill primals.

Now it could be that just because people don't want either primal around, it's more of a natural conclusion that the world evolves past needing them. Not necessarily killing them.

You don't want to kill Hydaelyn, QT_Melon. Some others, who either consider her possibly/definitely evil or just have a hatred for things with "Primal" labels, do. Both opinions are opinions and fine to have. They do both definitely exist, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleluia

You don't want to kill Hydaelyn, QT_Melon. Some others, who either consider her possibly/definitely evil or just have a hatred for things with "Primal" labels, do. Both opinions are opinions and fine to have. They do both definitely exist, though.

---

Yes, and I said as much. The issue is however, just because they DO exist, it's a bit disingenuous to include them in your argument when people who are having a discussion with you never made that case to you to begin with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Yes, and I said as much. The issue is however, just because they DO exist, it's a bit disingenuous to include them in your argument when people who are having a discussion with you never made that case to you to begin with.

---

Yes of course that would be bad, but the one I was replying to has made that statement more than once already so its not disingenuous to include them.

Also how would we have no crystal around without taking them out thus killing them? I mean the intention behind it can be different (Like it being necessary, or Hydealyn wanting us to kill her) but having no crystal primals around kinda does include their demise.

Either that or we have the first case of a primal being able to dissipate themselves. Which, you know, could happen, I guess. Maybe she disperses herself across all her children or something. Of course, Hydaelyn is necessary to maintain the whole shard system so I'm not sure it can work to have her go away. But maybe we somehow end up with one world in the end? Or it turns out she isn't needed if we don't have Zodiark and his ascians actively trying to break everything?

A little more than that since Zenos is up to no good as well. I don't think he cares about the current situation the world is in. That's why I wouldn't be surprised if there was a solution beyond it.

I just had a thought about Zenos. It's been established that Emet-Selch actually has the ability to pull souls out of the lifestream, so long as there's a suitable place to do so. He also somehow managed to infuse a newborn with the soul of a lightwarden. He must have done something similar while on the Source, which is why he would be the only known Ascian to have offspring (and probably not in the conventional way).

So I wonder, who or what is Zenos exactly?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

He must have done something similar while on the Source, which is why he would be the only known Ascian to have offspring (and probably not in the conventional way).

---

I don't see why he wouldn't have had children "in the conventional way" - he's possessing a human body after all - and it still grew and aged and died like a normal human. They would technically be Solus's children, not Emet-Selch's.

Which doesn't rule out him doing something to a naturally-born Zenos (or previous generations) like he did to Vauthry, of course...

so i have a question do you remember back to 2.0 end cutscenes where it showed for a few seconds a dark looking aspected mother crystal i took that to represent zodiark but why are ascians trying to wake zodiark did that scence not imply he was already awake?

Zoidark is Sundered the same way the Shards are. The point of Rejoining the Shards to the Source is to put Zoidark back together at full power and then sacrifice all the life on the Rejoined Source to him to get the Ascian souls in Zoidark back.

What is interesting about the vision we have of Zoidark in 2.0 is that it's not just something we, the player, see. It's an Echo vision the WoL gets. The purple crystal is confirmed to be Zoidark in 4.5 when it's the backdrop to Gaius' info drop to the WoL on the known Ascians.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

People seem determined to follow this "the Ancients were the cause of the first apocalypse" mentality despite what little evidence we currently have seeming to suggest the exact opposite.

---

I think part of that comes from the Amaurot dungeon, specifically when you finish fighting the Terminus Bellwether and port to the platforms above the star. The area you immediately walk into speaks of the "sins" of the ancient Ascian's come to life. The word "sin" implies some kind of transgression was committed, and informs my earlier suggestion of "soft hubris" as being at least partially responsible for the catastrophe.
Still not quite fair to "blame" the Ascian's for what happened. Even if - as Cilia mentioned - there was some kind of creation/destruction imbalance at play, with the pendulum swinging hard and fast back towards destruction, we have no information to suggest that the creation-imbalanced state of the world was the intent of the ancients. Regardless of all that though, I'm still of the mind that the "sins" Emet spoke of carry a strong sense of implied responsibility, even if the Ascian's weren't aware that they were committing such sins in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YianKutku

Please tell me I'm not the only one to immediately think of Lavos.

---

Oh fug. That would certainly be a thing. Not necessarily Lavos per se, but a being in a similar vein. Middy and Omega could travel between stars. Great distances too. It stands to reason that other beings could as well. It would certainly scratch my giant space flea itch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

Which doesn't rule out him doing something to a naturally-born Zenos (or previous generations) like he did to Vauthry, of course...

---

I very much hope this turns out to the be case. Having something to explain Zenos's insane strength other than "because reasons" would be great.

Hmm I wonder what happened with the source of the sound?
I think it was only said that zodiark fixed the chain reaction the sound caused but not the source of it itself, correct me If I am wrong.
If zodiark didn't destroy it ,then its really bad cause it would either have been split up too or its on another shard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by foussi

Hmm I wonder what happened with the source of the sound?
I think it was only said that zodiark fixed the chain reaction the sound caused but not the source of it itself, correct me If I am wrong.
If zodiark didn't destroy it ,then its really bad cause it would either have been split up too or its on another shard.

---

Rampant speculation but...

It could have something to do with what's in Silvertear Lake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by foussi

Hmm I wonder what happened with the source of the sound?
I think it was only said that zodiark fixed the chain reaction the sound caused but not the source of it itself, correct me If I am wrong.
If zodiark didn't destroy it ,then its really bad cause it would either have been split up too or its on another shard.

---

We don't know for certain exactly what Zodiark did. If we take Emet-Selch's description of events as truth, then its initial summoning entailed rewriting the very laws of reality to both correct the initial problem and rid the world of further damage done to it by the Ancients' runaway powers. The second summoning (or re-empowerment, depending) was used to restore the world's ability to sustain life as well as possibly creating some new lifeforms to inhabit it.

It was said that Zodiark "rewrote the laws of the star," and that in so doing was able to stop the Sound. It's still unclear what caused it; the only thing really known about the Sound is that its effects were originally localized, small-scale disruptions. When it reached Amaurot it... basically caused the Apocalypse. (Literally. The bosses are identified as "Beasts," as in Beast of Revelation, and the final boss "Therion" uses one of the names attributed to said Beast.)

One thing that worries me with the new info from Shadowbringers is Lahabrea's pre-battle dialogue in the Praetorium, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lahabrea

The growing imbalance afflicting the planet must be redressed. If it is permitted to worsen, the very laws of existence - both aetheric and physical - will be warped beyond all recognition. Know you the root of this corruption? Hydaelyn! Like a parasite, she must be burned out if the planet is to recover. And naught but the return of the one true god will ensure her complete excision.

---

Now, I might be crazy, but to me it sounds like he's suggesting that without Zodiark's return the Sound might come back. (Granted this is coming from an Ascian and was written like, what, five, six years ago... but even so...)

If we go with what they've revealed now, it almost sounds like Hydaelyn is being equated to that sound.

But like you said this was written years ago, supposedly before the specifics from ShB were ironed out. Also, even if that is what Lahabrea was aiming at, its a pov influenced heavily by bias towards Zodiark. ie He could be wrong or being manipulated into believing a lie.