I DON'T like Stormblood RDM

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Or verwater, which will be damage+knockback+bind, but quickly have the damage and knockback removed.

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nah RDM Popularity is decreasing, it'll lead to changes :P.. they generally make changes when Jobs on the logs Start to Drop low in its popularity. not to mention JP Players are now kicking up about RDMs performance too. currently all the right things are happening for RDM to be re-evaluated.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

-"Removal of one of two white magic spells"
Red Mage has six white magic spells: stone, stone 2, aero, aero 2, cure, raise. I'm personally for compromise, verraise should be restricted: a 2 minute cooldown with 2 charges. As well, make it ogcd to emphasize RDM strength to weave abilities between spells. The other end of red mage is it's not supposed to be better at white magic than white mage and yet it obliterates white mage with the raise spell. Maybe this would be an ok compromise.

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Honestly all they need to do is change dualcast. Make it similar to Lightspeed, which takes off 2.5 seconds to cast time, but make it 5 seconds off for RDM. Then it's functionally the same for everything but verraise, and you'd still need swiftcast to have an instant raise.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Honestly all they need to do is change dualcast. Make it similar to Lightspeed, which takes off 2.5 seconds to cast time, but make it 5 seconds off for RDM. Then it's functionally the same for everything but verraise, and you'd still need swiftcast to have an instant raise.

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I'd be okay with this as well!

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Originally Posted by Drayos

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Every job should be fully equipted to go from the very beginning of a Expansion to the very end, If your saying "hybrids good til "X Content" its not good, lol. its a god damn MMORPG, Its all about the End game Progressive nature. U cant Just say its Fine for a Job to Stunt Early compared to every other job. Roulette behavior and more Isnt Important, no ones cares as no one has any control over comps and more involved in them.

ur basically saying RDM is good in the content u CANT be refused in. how is that good in any respect. no verraise shouldnt be removed, but it should be nerfed if the Progression of the Job depends on it.

this isnt WoW or something with multiple Speccs, by Defining RDM as Something to NOT exist in End game content is Litterally rejecting a Entire Element of the game out. It not only reduces Diversity but also options. which eats at the choice of comps and more displayed throughout the game.

Just because 50% of the playerbase Dont Raid, doesnt mean the other 50% of the playerbase should get Punished. the job should be Performing in both Areas and it needs a Skillset that adapts to both Areas of the game.

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See, that's where our opinions differ. I think an MMO is not only about the most difficult content it has to offer. If a class is above the others in some regards in some content, i think it's fine if its behind others in other content. Yes, the hardcore raiders don't think so. And they don't make nearly 50% of the playerbase, the percentage is much much smaller, it just doesn't look like it in the forum because the players more engaged with the difficult content are also more engaged in the forum. And for those who do not raid, savage behaviour isn't important, but duty roulette behaviour is.

"ur basically saying RDM is good in the content u CANT be refused in". I'm happy if i see a red mage in raid or alliance raids in my party if i'm on another class, i'd never refuse any even if i could. Savage is a different matter.

As for your WoW comparison: Every FFXIV character has 17 specs, 4 are tanks , 3 are healers, 9 are pure DPS and one, just one, is a hybrid.

It's not a hybrid though. Not any more than a dancer is for having curing waltz or a Summoner is for having Everlasting Flight. It's a DPS with healing utilities. It's a red icon, it fits in the DPS role and competes for a DPS spot.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

My stance is, if your primary reason for playing a job is the actions it can perform that don't belong to it's role to the detriment of that job's actual role, you might be better served playing that role.

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Primary reason to play RDM is, that i like the gameplay. Veraise is a nice bonus for pugs.
Veraise is not a detriment for RDMs actual role. The little low potencies atm are; thats all.

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Originally Posted by Laphael

Primary reason to play RDM is, that i like the gameplay. Veraise is a nice bonus for pugs.
Veraise is not a detriment for RDMs actual role. The little low potencies atm are; thats all.

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The potencies are low because the devs are balancing them to be low...because they have verraise. Summoner likewise is low because they have the much less on demand resurrection as well, both admitted as much in the latest live letter.

rdm needs a slight buff, that's all

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Originally Posted by Naryoril

See, that's where our opinions differ. I think an MMO is not only about the most difficult content it has to offer. If a class is above the others in some regards in some content, i think it's fine if its behind others in other content. Yes, the hardcore raiders don't think so. And they don't make nearly 50% of the playerbase, the percentage is much much smaller, it just doesn't look like it in the forum because the players more engaged with the difficult content are also more engaged in the forum. And for those who do not raid, savage behaviour isn't important, but duty roulette behaviour is.

"ur basically saying RDM is good in the content u CANT be refused in". I'm happy if i see a red mage in raid or alliance raids in my party if i'm on another class, i'd never refuse any even if i could. Savage is a different matter.

As for your WoW comparison: Every FFXIV character has 17 specs, 4 are tanks , 3 are healers, 9 are pure DPS and one, just one, is a hybrid.

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WoW has the ability to take a Paladin and Make it a DPS Role, The customization of Each individual Role does Not exist in FFXIV which is what i was getting at, if RDM had the ability to CHANGE its Position, for example having 1 Set up which had Verraise and the 2nd to not it'd be Fine, but without that Option NO u cant have jobs which physically are Incapable of Participating in content due to being Imbalanced for a Factor Which has no relevence to Content Outside of progression.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/27#dataset=99

Dungeons BOTTOM THREE RELEVENCE.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...100&dataset=99

DF Eden BOTTOM TWO

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...100&dataset=99

Please tell me where we're so powerful in your DF World, because honestly. this just shows U really dont need a RDM to exist. do u honestly participate in so many DFs which still wipe on this content?.. because i aint seen anyone die in this content Since Week 2 Eden. lol. Our relevence shouldnt be Restricted to the first 2 weeks of Content and just Die out afterwards. bvecause honestly.. no logs in existance shows RDM to be of any greatness in any content.

The Difference in Skill Levels and gear In This content is what Exaggerates jobs power, u got a 450 RDM and a 400 Dragoon onboard RDM may look god damn great, but it doesnt change the fact the 440 BLM is outdpsing him by 3k. So what, We're just suspose to Stand then in hope that BLM Dies so we can have some Relevency to the Raid?... theres a Litteral Argument currently to if a WHM can out DPS a RDM in AoE Enviroments. when such things need to be Tested Does it not question if the damn jobs worth a dime?

Just because your fine with having a Slower Paced run for the sake of Fun, but thats not the standard in FFXIV and balancing should not be based on "well i dont care if i have a RDM Present.. i wont kick him"..

RDM Is one opf the Lowest AoE DPS options.

RDM is one of the lowest ST DPS Options.

RDM is Situationally useful with embolden. but Monks hold a version of this themselves.

RDMs RDPS Still puts them behind BLM and Summoner.

RDMs Utility is based on the Skill Level of the players Surrounding them.

NONE OF THESE are strong points Espically when u account for the fact DF Doesnt even surround end game content half the time, Level Syncing exists throughout DF Options and Roulettes Oftenly take advantage of that.

This isnt a "we're strong at things and weak at other things" this is "we're put up in some content and entirely exiled from the others" how can u honestly beleive its fine for Imbalancements to exist for the Sake of Content which level syncs U beneath the Games Current iterations of Jobs.

This would be like saying in WoW

"I suck at BFA Content but i can Clear ICC Faster then atleast 4 Classes.. so i dont need buffing".

reguardless im done with the conversation, if they dont do anything, i'll Simply move Job. and im sure im not alone in that department, maybe the Job will Fall low enough in popularity to Justify SE Reworking the job and we'll finally see some functionality added to the job. DF is not a Balancing Metric its a Tool used to obtain gear to Progress, this is a MMORPG. Replayability is Vital. and RDM Does not have that, it lacks Replayability by being punished by Tools which make it Less effective the Second Run then the first. Ur not ment to degrade in Potency over time in content which is built to Stand for 2 years

Verraise is no where near as Potent as ur trying to make it out to be, Its Actually pretty Useless, because it Depends on being apart of a group which is Bad at the content to be Put to use. no one of 75 percentile + is dying in this content. so why are we being punished on 75+ Percentile gameplay for People obtaining 20 Percentile.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

rdm needs a slight buff, that's all

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no, Ninja Suimmoner and more have been promised Potency buffs. We shouldnt fall Further then we already are, RDM has Nothing which can justify it to NOT be a Mid Pack DPS option.

Damage definitely needs a buff, to both single targets and AoE's, as well as AoE Mana accumulation, they could have easily given their counterparts an AoE Proc just like single targets and yes, named them those lost elements of Verwater / Verblizzard, for another bump in White / Black mana.

When I first started SHb I jumped straight to GUN and leveled RDM afterwards, my first thought in jumping back to RDM was: "Wow, it feels slower, and wow, my Proc's aren't' occurring as often as before?" Idk maybe it was my GUN brain bc they're so fast paced.

I enjoyed reading all your points, as they really highlight my feelings really well on the job overall, and the ONE job that brought me back to FFXIV, the one Job that made me catch up from ARR.

Acceleration having two charges would be awesome! And would again increase mana gathering and allow the RDM to get to Burst window faster, if RNG isn't helpful.

Dualcast being proc'ed by Swiftcast would be super neat, because I generally start a fight with "Acceleration >> Swiftcast >> Ver(Strong) then follow up with Ver(fast), but if it's that way, you could do two Ver(strong) spells AND maybe proc both Ver(Fast) spells to quicken Mana accumulation.

As far as Melee combo goes, sometimes I have issues with CoC being 40s, I've found myself in so many occasions getting to 80/80+ before the CoC timer is up, and me being so far away, that I was better off using Reprise twice, before jumping into Combo.

Verraise is a bit of a mix bag for me. I would gladly remove it from Dualcast, and just be affected by Swiftcast. I mean, yeah we can mega raise folks when they get cleaved by a tank buster or something crazy, but, let us be like the others and be able to raise one person swiftly, with Swiftcast, and leave it at that.

Again I enjoyed reading your feedback and I hope that we see some love given to RDM soon. =D

I personally have no problems with RDM, it works as it should work, but it could use some minor adjustments here and there.
And don't touch verraise. People complain about job homogenization, and then complain about things that make them unique.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Honestly all they need to do is change dualcast. Make it similar to Lightspeed, which takes off 2.5 seconds to cast time, but make it 5 seconds off for RDM. Then it's functionally the same for everything but verraise, and you'd still need swiftcast to have an instant raise.

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I second this.

If SMN isn't gimped by its Resurrection, then I don't see why Verraise should be a problem, and this is the best method of addressing it that I've seen so far.

Although, as if the MP cost wasn't enough already, having a minimum of a 3s cast time on Verraise would be enough to force it's use with Swiftcast for most cases, putting it on an effective 60s cooldown, except for extreme cases when both healers are down I guess, and then you can 3s cast it.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

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https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/27#dataset=99

Dungeons BOTTOM THREE RELEVENCE.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...100&dataset=99

DF Eden BOTTOM TWO

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...100&dataset=99

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Originally Posted by Drayos

Our relevence shouldnt be Restricted to the first 2 weeks of Content and just Die out afterwards. bvecause honestly.. no logs in existance shows RDM to be of any greatness in any content.

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Logs don't cover everything. I'm not saying that red mage does enough damage, it definitely should do more than it currently does. But in the cases where red mage shines the most, is where it looks the worst in the logs, when it has to spend mana and time on ressing people.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

Please tell me where we're so powerful in your DF World, because honestly. this just shows U really dont need a RDM to exist. do u honestly participate in so many DFs which still wipe on this content?.. because i aint seen anyone die in this content Since Week 2 Eden. lol.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

This isnt a "we're strong at things and weak at other things" this is "we're put up in some content and entirely exiled from the others"

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Originally Posted by Drayos

Verraise is no where near as Potent as ur trying to make it out to be, Its Actually pretty Useless, because it Depends on being apart of a group which is Bad at the content to be Put to use. no one of 75 percentile + is dying in this content.

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Either you are extremely lucky, or you don't queue for duty finder alone. Just the day before yesterday 5 people i had a run where 5 people died in the "car mode" attack sequence.
Alliance raid is also a common case, for example the first boss in Rabanastre, or boss 1 and 3 in Ridorana.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

Just because your fine with having a Slower Paced run for the sake of Fun, but thats not the standard in FFXIV and balancing should not be based on "well i dont care if i have a RDM Present.. i wont kick him"..

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In a duty finder player skill and equipment make a much much bigger difference than party composition when it comes to clear speed.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

reguardless im done with the conversation, if they dont do anything, i'll Simply move Job. and im sure im not alone in that department

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Yes, the job is not optimal for the type of content you care most about. If it isn't you should move on to something better suited. It is a great job for the content i care a lot about though. Yes, i hope they do something, but whatever they do, i doubt you will be satisfied, unless they butcher verraise. In that case, i'd be sad, but i'd move on.

yeah not a fan of people wanting to keep RDM Raise as insurance of DF instead of people actually learning that game

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I second this.

If SMN isn't gimped by its Resurrection, then I don't see why Verraise should be a problem, and this is the best method of addressing it that I've seen so far.

Although, as if the MP cost wasn't enough already, having a minimum of a 3s cast time on Verraise would be enough to force it's use with Swiftcast for most cases, putting it on an effective 60s cooldown, except for extreme cases when both healers are down I guess, and then you can 3s cast it.

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Funny thing about this: Verraise's base casting time is different than other raises. People are so used to raise being 8 seconds and verraise never being hardcasted, but verraise base is actually 10, so it'd be 5 with that change.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Funny thing about this: Verraise's base casting time is different than other raises. People are so used to raise being 8 seconds and verraise never being hardcasted, but verraise base is actually 10, so it'd be 5 with that change.

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I didn't realise that. Well that makes that idea even better then I guess.

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Originally Posted by Cetek14

I personally have no problems with RDM, it works as it should work, but it could use some minor adjustments here and there.
And don't touch verraise. People complain about job homogenization, and then complain about things that make them unique.

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Verraise should go, it’s a toxic skill, this has nothing to do with homogeneous intent. It’s about hitting like a wet noodle as a dps. 2, the job has actual rotational frustrations unless you call using a single target AoE with the purpose of dumping mana because SE won’t give us one that works “working as intended” I don’t believe we’ve been playing the same job

Sometimes I wonder would skill-trees help with these problems. As in pick verraise skill or pick the 15% damage skill (for example), so you can keep it there but when your raid has outgrown it's need at least you have the option to get your damage on par with other classes.

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Originally Posted by Jattennz

Sometimes I wonder would skill-trees help with these problems. As in pick verraise skill or pick the 15% damage skill (for example), so you can keep it there but when your raid has outgrown it's need at least you have the option to get your damage on par with other classes.

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No, there would always the be the "better" option. That would be much developement time for nothing.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Verraise should go, it’s a toxic skill, this has nothing to do with homogeneous intent. It’s about hitting like a wet noodle as a dps. 2, the job has actual rotational frustrations unless you call using a single target AoE with the purpose of dumping mana becaus SE won’t give us one that works “working as intended” I don’t believe we’ve been playing the same job

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RDM damage is fine, even SMN deal less damage. If you want big numbers go play BLM. RDM is very mobile caster with extremely powerful utility, yet very situational. At the moment it could use minor adjustments and buffs, or just additional party buffs (reworked Embolden or another ability).
At this point it's just complaining that RDM is RDM.

Honestly Verraise is fine as it is. MP is too limited for anyone to be reasonably expecting much use out of it in a single run. If the actual healers are on top of things, they should be handling that anyway. Verraise and SMN Resurrection are only really there as emergency tools and to help with prog, and are designed to be limited in their use. I will concur that Embolden should be adjusted in a meaningful way though.

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Originally Posted by Cetek14

RDM damage is fine, even SMN deal less damage. If you want big numbers go play BLM. RDM is very mobile caster with extremely powerful utility, yet very situational. At the moment it could use minor adjustments and buffs, or just additional party buffs (reworked Embolden or another ability).
At this point it's just complaining that RDM is RDM.

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The entire point of balance is raid dps. BLM is high due to zero utility for party buffs. Which is fine. Rez should be considered a non factor in balance because it's a garbage skill that after prog is useless. Se wanted to make alot more classes balanced and all they did was give classes that offer no utility the meta. So exact opposite of prior tiers. But same issues

I don't think there can be any serious discussion about RDM damage being not too low. Rdm is now in a similar spot as it was in stormblood before the damage buffs (so even the developer acknowledged that the DPS wasn't fine). Furtermore it has been hinted that Ninja and Summoner will get some damage buffs next patch, which would make RDM even a worse choice to take instead any of the other damagers.
While verraise is an issue, I don't want them to remove it completely but imo it should just get a 1min Cd to be on par with the smn rezz.Then they can buff RDM close to SMN level of damage and bring both closer to BLM. (a few hundred RDPS)

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Originally Posted by Mediocre

BLM isn't the problem or a scapegoat - a 15+% tax on damage based soley on verraise (since you included embolden in the rdm numbers already) is the problem. That is way over the top for utility that quickly becomes pointless after learning the mechanics of a fight.

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or u can say it’s absolutely worth it because u learn mechanics of a fight way faster with less wipes - there are always to sides of a medal.

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Originally Posted by Cetek14

RDM damage is fine, even SMN deal less damage. If you want big numbers go play BLM. RDM is very mobile caster with extremely powerful utility, yet very situational. At the moment it could use minor adjustments and buffs, or just additional party buffs (reworked Embolden or another ability).
At this point it's just complaining that RDM is RDM.

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You’d be right if BLM wasn’t the most mobile caster in this game as they have the most tools to handle mechanics and not lose dps. RDM also has issues using its burst windows in line with other jobs which I mentioned. In fights with lots of downtime, RDM mana generation causes the entire rotation get misaligned since we have no meaningful way to dump mana without being in specific BW mana ranges. The job has actual problems that may not be as blatant as other job, but they’re very annoying to players that like playing it. RDMs have always asked for a good way to control our mana and we’ve yet to get it
Also my problem isn’t that BLM does more damage, it’s that it does way too much more damage. If you think verraise is equal 1600 rdps, you’re out of your mind

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Originally Posted by Neela

or u can say it’s absolutely worth it because u learn mechanics of a fight way faster with less wipes - there are always to sides of a medal.

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Verraise and learning mechanics faster isn't worth 1600 dps but i'll humor you. Explain to me why RDM falls off as early as enrage runs because it's damage is that much lower than BLM. if you look at Titan savage kills, their are 1617 BLM kills(41%), 1523 SMN kills(39%), and 776 RDM kills(20%) recorded on fflogs. Thats ridiculous for what is essentially the jobs entire purpose by your words. Im aware some players may switch off RDM because of it's low damage to BLM or SMN but that means nothing to me for multiple reasons. first, that information isn't available to us, and second there is no justifiable reason why the prog caster has less than half the estimated BLM kills and nearly half of SMN, one of which is NOT a prog caster by any stretch. something is wrong here

Overall Statistic split: 61,339
BLM 23,443 (38%)
SMN 21,205 (35%)
RDM 16,691 (27%)

Titan Savage Caster Total: 3916
BLM 1617 (41%) SMN 1523(39%) RDM 776 (20%)

Leviathan Savage Caster Total: 11017
BLM 4084 (37%) SMN 4110(37%) RDM 2823 (26%)

Voidewalker Savage Caster Total: 19119
BLM 7367(39%) SMN 6616(35%) RDM 5136 (27%)

Eden Prime Savage Caster Total: 27287
BLM 10,375(38%) SMN 8956(33%) RDM 7956 (29%)

While not too far apart from each other like the Melee, Casters still show a consistent slope away from red mage during the 3rd week of a tier when MANY raiders are still progging, this issue gets further the higher you go as Titan has BLM at 41% despite RDM being at 20% and the supposedly superior prog pick. To me, this seems wrong as progression is the sole purpose of RDM, At least by the communities standard and; the prog caster shouldn't be falling off the harder the content gets before clears. it shouldn't be falling off in general.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Also my problem isn’t that BLM does more damage, it’s that it does way too much more damage. If you think verraise is equal 1600 rdps, you’re out of your mind

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Give us a value then.

RDM and SUMMONER doesnt feel well because BLM is fucking overpowered.
Also RDM is by far the easiest job to play in the game you expect BLM dmg with unlimted resses?

It's funny how ppl keep crying for buffs all the time on this forum.
This raid tier was the easiest one in a long while with ppl clearing all the fights with pugs the first weeks if they keep buffing every class the game is gonna be even easier wich will hurt the game in the long run.

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Originally Posted by HinokaTheRed

I say this all the time, and I sure hope it becomes a reality. Caster raise is overrated.

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100% this. I've been playing Red Mage for my savage static after our last caster had to drop out of raiding, and I can tell you on one hand the number of times someone has died that our healers asked me to raise the person, and I can tell you on zero fingers the number of times chain raise has resulted in saving a run rather than the team just calling to wipe it and start over.

Caster raise is handy, but hardly a skill that is a massive raid utility tool.

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Originally Posted by snipski

RDM and SUMMONER doesnt feel well because BLM is fucking overpowered.
Also RDM is by far the easiest job to play in the game you expect BLM dmg with unlimted resses?

It's funny how ppl keep crying for buffs all the time on this forum.
This raid tier was the easiest one in a long while with ppl clearing all the fights with pugs the first weeks if they keep buffing every class the game is gonna be even easier wich will hurt the game in the long run.

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Majority of the people who claim RDM is this super easy job with no layers of Optimization haven't even played the job in any content that challenges you. Difficulty is also subjective in nature, but try playing RDM in a fight like Levi, Titan, Ultima Ultimate, and Ucob and watch the mechanics challenge your claim that this is Easiest job in the game. RDM is the job with the lowest floor, but alot of people take that as the job having a Low ceiling. for proof, look at the percentile distribution to see that there is a definite difference in a good RDM and a Bad one.

This tier wasn't too difficult mechanically speaking, but the dps check on the last fight was rough enough that RDMs were switching to BLM because nobody could die and damage needed to be dealt. I got a problem with that

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Give us a value then.

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700 to 800 overall was pretty tight between them in SB, i'd rather that than the 1600 gap we have now.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

tbh i agree it shouldnt be Removed, Just nerfed.

Imho, a CD of 30secs on Verraise with 2 Stacks Would hold its Utility to a good level, (in a Raid u generally are only Weighed on for rezzs once Healers are dead, and u could still Double Rezz them and u can still get out a Instant rezz on a Target during a Group)

i disagree with it being a great spell tho, today in Casual content i've Never used Verraise, no one dies to warrant it lol, it falls out of use even in more casual Settings.

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30 second cooldown with two charges means it would serve zero difference between what it is now and what it would be. I prefer the idea that red mages and summoners simply have all their potencies buffed, but they get a weakness debuff whenever they raise someone else (and brink of death debuff if we raise again while weakness is still active). Punish our damage when we have to raise, but allow us to do more damage once a fight is learned and that utility skill is no longer needed.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

800 to 900 overall was pretty tight between them in SB, i'd rather that than the 1600 gap we have now.

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Back then that was about a 13% difference.

If you look at RDPS differentials now, it's a 15% difference.

If you look at ADPS it's 21%, though this number differs from between 15-20% depending on the fight.

Wanting to close the gap to Stormblood levels without taking into account Shadowbringers inflation would reduce the actual RDPS value to around 5-6%, at which point, you might as well kick Black mage to the curb again, because that's about the difference there was in Delta.

Im referring to Alphascape where RDM, SMN, and BLM all preformed well with each other or at least As well as they've ever been. I certainly am not referring to delta, where SMN kicked both RDM and BLM to the curb for the entirety of that tier, UCOB, and Sigma after patch 4.1

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Originally Posted by wereotter

I prefer the idea that red mages and summoners simply have all their potencies buffed, but they get a weakness debuff whenever they raise someone else (and brink of death debuff if we raise again while weakness is still active). Punish our damage when we have to raise, but allow us to do more damage once a fight is learned and that utility skill is no longer needed.

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To be frank, that sounds silly. People dying in a fight for any duration is already a significant loss in group DPS. Why then punish SMN/RDM players further for surviving and covering for a rez, particularly when the mistake wasn't theirs? That seems backwards to me. Also, rezzing as a DPS caster for any reason at all is already a risk in personal DPS as it is, between taking the time to cast the rez and the relatively steep MP cost.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Im referring to Alphascape where RDM, SMN, and BLM all preformed well with each other or at least As well as they've ever been. I certainly am not referring to delta, where SMN kicked both RDM and BLM to the curb for the entirety of that tier, UCOB, and Sigma after patch 4.1

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Did you miss the part where I said that wanting to close the gap to what you suggested is what reduces it back to Deltascape levels?

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Originally Posted by ChaoticCrimson

To be frank, that sounds silly. People dying in a fight for any duration is already a significant loss in group DPS. Why then punish SMN/RDM players further for surviving and covering for a rez, particularly when the mistake wasn't theirs? That seems backwards to me. Also, rezzing as a DPS caster for any reason at all is already a risk in personal DPS as it is, between taking the time to cast the rez and the relatively steep MP cost.

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I mean, sure.... I would prefer for Square not to punish caster DPS for simply having raise. But we all know that's not how this is going to go down. So at least if the job only gets a damage penalty when they actually have to use that action seems a fair traide off with what Square is realistically going to do with the skill. We already know that they said that summoner and red mage should be really far behind black mage because raise.

So if that's the mindset they're in, then if you never have to raise someone in a fight, then you should be doing more damage, and losing one GCD and the mana isn't really a big enough impact on having the caster DPS raise as opposed to the healer.

This might not be the best compromise solution to what Square has stated and what the player base wants.... but it's the best one I could come up with.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Did you miss the part where I said that wanting to close the gap to what you suggested is what reduces it back to Deltascape levels?

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Deltascape BLM on 99th percentile average of all fights sat at 5374.08, RDM was 4950.33 so the dps gap between them around was about 424 not accounting for verraise. I agree that this is low and i'd never claim it needs to be this way.
Alphascape BLM on 99th percentile average of all fights sat at 8427.71, RDM was 7538.61 so the dps gap between them was around 889 again, not accounting for verraise but is double the deltascape difference and the jobs coexisted well under these restrictions.

So placing RDM at least 800-900 lower total rpds contribution than BLM won't harm the Job at all. BLM was a heavy meta contender then and it will be if this is how the jobs are placed relative to each other again, as opposed to the nearly doubled 1600 overall difference there is now at the 99th percentile in Eden's Gate Savage

BLM 14,091.50 RDPS to RDMs 12,447.80 with a gap of 1643.7 Rdps that Verraise supposedly fills
BLM 14,463.40 ADPS to RDMs 12,129.20 with a gap of 2334.2 in BLMs favor that again, Verraise seems to fill

I agree with RDM not getting much new really. 2 very situational abilities and 1 combo finisher.

And our dps being so low just because we have an easier time ressing people compared to SMN. If every player does what they need to do, we don't need Verraise.
And to justify taking a RDM over any other caster, other people need to screw up. That's not a good way to balance DPS in my opinion.

I know SE probably won't do anything big to RDM mid expansion but I just hoped for some additions to our rotation that aren't situational.
I love the new AoE though (Thank you SE!) but sadly in Trials & Raids AoE is barely ever a thing.

For now i'd just be happy with potency buffs.

I didn't read everything because I honestly don't think I have a leg to stand on. But, please, we can't let the "meta" consume us, and a lot of what I saw is nothing but fitting g RDM into the Meta. We make the Meta work for us, not the other way around.

If it's a simple, "I feel weak and would like a potency buff" or "my rotation feel too complex for the amount of damage I do" those are good examples of wanting balanced gameplay. The second we start talking about "removing this skill for balance" or "using this skill is a DPS loss" or "you play X for prog and Y for farm" we're letting the Meta take hold and "control" us.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

I didn't read everything because I honestly don't think I have a leg to stand on. But, please, we can't let the "meta" consume us, and a lot of what I saw is nothing but fitting g RDM into the Meta. We make the Meta work for us, not the other way around.

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Has nothing to do with meta, it's purely based on disparities and RDMs kit not interacting properly with the RNG nature of it's burst window, the lack of resource control and the over/inconsistent taxation of verraise. i didn't drop the term meta in my post once because thats not my goal here

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eloah

If it's a simple, "I feel weak and would like a potency buff" or "my rotation feel too complex for the amount of damage I do" those are good examples of wanting balanced gameplay. The second we start talking about "removing this skill for balance" or "using this skill is a DPS loss" or "you play X for prog and Y for farm" we're letting the Meta take hold and "control" us.

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The problem is that, asking for these things usually bring Verraise to the forefront, if you look at this post. i deliberately made verraise a side topic in this discussion because the community can only ever talk about it and ignores all other aspects of rdm plays besides their percieved difficulty. Still what this thread devolved into is verraise this or that and the rotational issues i discussed are completely overshadowed. Verraise is actually toxic as the community can't seem to look past the skill and lacks the ability to quantify it's usefulness beyond when it COULD work as opposed to when it CAN'T. As a result, RDM is stuck in a limbo because nobody is willing to discuss any aspects of the job and all issues are generally met with Verraise. There is no progression here, only a circle jerk of "This is bad, and doesn't feel good" and "But Verraise..."