MMORPGs How they have changed for the better? or worse?

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

And yet you are here posting, at the forum of a ultra casual friendly game, this is pretty ironic.
Old mmorpgs, i do not miss them even a bit, they were punishing and stressful, and sorry to break your world but it was not good for young minds at all, the mmorpg i played in my young years were causing a ton of stress and kids were fighting in real life because of that game. There were several cases in my country of kids attacking their own parents because they interupted them in playing one of the "old style" mmorpg.
It was bad, often pay2win and was forcing youths to hardcore playing to keep competitve, often playing and ignoring school, not passing from class to class because of the game.
I was raised in those times, i experienced bad sides of online gaming, it made its terrible damage to our society, and you cannot denny this fact.
They were new, addicting and was hard to distiguish real life from online game for kids who played them, i knew in first person a boy who tried commit suicide because he has been hacked in Tibia.
These old games were like drugs given away for free, terribly designed and made to lure in you to spend all your time in them.

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These bad sides apply to any form of online gaming, or really online interactions in general. It's the alter ego existing within a virtual space that creates problems for people, not whether a game features deep, time-consuming mechanics or pay-to-win loot boxes. There are stories of physical harm going back to the 70s and 80s, with studies showing that Pong could elicit negative physiological responses. A man died from a heart attack that arose from a compromised cardiovascular system exacerbated primarily by the Berzerk arcade game back in 1982. There have been suicides arising from old MMOs like EverQuest, and at least one infanticide resulting from a mother's addiction to FarmVille. It's all over the place.

That's not to say it isn't an issue. You're absolutely right to bring it up, and I offer my sympathies for what seems like a set of rough personal experiences. But it's a problem that has arisen with the internet and virtual online environments in general, not any specific title or type of online game.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I, for one, do *NOT* have Rose-Colored Glasses on.

Old MMOs sucked where you HAD to have 10, 20+ people to do anything "meaningful" in the game. People just don't have that kind of time and schedules anymore with how today's world works. I know people go "but mah massively multiplayer world" but they conveniently forget how they would spend 10, 15, 30+ minutes waiting for everybody to be ready to go, or then you had random disconnects, people having to AFK, etc.

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I still don't know what this means when people say it. What do you mean by 'people just don't have that kind of time and schedules anymore in today's world?' Are you saying they did back then? What changed, exactly? Probably you just became an adult when back then you were still in your teens/young adulthood.

This is like the same debate all gamers have, video games were greater back in the day and suck now cause it's all too easy and casual. There's some points to that but It's not all bad. I bet a good chunk of people would've NEVER picked up XIV if it was modeled after an old school system, Hell we have people NOW today in this YEAR saying XIV is too hard. NOW. MMOs and in general video games HAD to change, Look I like harder stuff too. Devil May Cry 3 BEFORE the crybabies made capcom changed it was great. But sadly a good chunk of gamers don't finish their games now, when games are stupid easy and everyone gets a trophy for turning it on. And people still don't finish them. So if mmos stayed as hard as they were back then.. they would be DEAD now. Gaming as a whole would be seeing as dead as the only people who gamed back in the day were arcade nuts and people like nerds and geeks. IT wasn't the kool thing to do and shut alot of people off from it to the point it's still kindof a meme today.

I took pride in finishing games in under a week where the -kool- kids didn't know how to hold a Sega controller or didn't know the different between the 6 button street fighter sega pad vs the default. Or when platformers punished you for being bad.. etc etc...

But those days are gone and just like gaming as a whole mmos are for those -kool- kids now who can't hold a controller, who can't understand what an aoe is, but they want to game now cause it's apparently kool now, now they want to jump in cause they want in cause pretty graphics and whatever is bringing them in. Pretty much we can't have hard stuff cause nongamers are the bigger draw to companies now.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I still don't know what this means when people say it. What do you mean by 'people just don't have that kind of time and schedules anymore in today's world?' Are you saying they did back then? What changed, exactly? Probably you just became an adult when back then you were still in your teens/young adulthood.

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Honestly NOTHING changed really.. people just think they are busier with their cell phones giving them instant updates all the time. Like thats the biggest change. Back in the day we didn't have the net in our pockets. If you had to make a call you had to either go home and dail the number, find a payphone, or use your phone at your job or whatever. Now we're walking around withthat in our pockets. And that's a things cause now netflix and the like are giving shows instantly. No longer do you have to wait a week to catch the next eps in - live life- Now you can watch all that in one night when it's brand new. Time hasn't changed. It's still 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and 365 days a year. What changed was now people are doing so much on the go cause we have access to so much more on the go.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

Is my most on hand example really. Yet the documentary touches on the pandemic that South Korea and several other nations face.
You might not want to look at it.

I work with videogame addicts daily.

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Video games are not a disease either.

pan·dem·ic
/panˈdemik/

adjective

1.
(of a disease) prevalent over a whole country or the world.

noun
noun: pandemic; plural noun: pandemics
1.
an outbreak of a pandemic disease.

Both sides have their good and bad, but I just personally wish there was a proper middle ground between them at least.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I still don't know what this means when people say it. What do you mean by 'people just don't have that kind of time and schedules anymore in today's world?' Are you saying they did back then? What changed, exactly? Probably you just became an adult when back then you were still in your teens/young adulthood.

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I don't get this either, back then I had less time cause I had to go to school, do a lot of chores I didn't want, share the computer with someone else, and if my mom said get off at x hour, I had to get off.

Even if people don't have time now, it doesn't mean we should change an entire genre for those few people.

Oh and we still wait 30min+ for people with the duty finder. In mmos today where you make your own group, I get parties faster. Cause at that point it's about you and not just what class you are, people want to run content with that person cause they're funny, good at the game, etc.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

That's not the fault of the game, that's the fault of the playerbase. XIV encourages you to take a longer path towards the end, to do things other than rush the latest endgame content

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Huh? No it's the fault of the game, XIV has absolutely zero mid tier content, all the content and gear that "matters" are at level cap. When people talk about the journey and not rushing, back in the day MMOs had actual mid level content. Like mid level raids, mid lvl pvp arenas, rifts, etc. Not fluff content like gold sauce and sight seeing.

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You can blame players for ilvl actually.

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No, I'm speaking of Ilvl.

Gearscore was a way to see what your Ilvl is.

Ilvl is (albeit 14's way of representing this) the driving mechanic behind the specific allocation of stats on gear. for the longest time in wow it was a set function of ilvl*statpoints allocated to a single stat, which was then decremented by a specific value to have a secondary stat added, so that at lower levels, the stat points of 2 stats added up to the same amount as one stat (level 39) to where it was spread across 3-4 different stats and added up to 1.5-1.75x the value of a single stat (I think 1.73% was Icecrown, but its been a long time and i cant find the old values for gear, but it was a simple exponential scaling of ilvl*base).


I lvl and resulting formulas are drag and drop "heres the ilvl, the stats will ALWAYS be: X or Y/Z or A/B/C or E/F/G/H" and you can determine exactly what the total stat value will be of any given piece of gear at that ilvl (and sometimes varying by rarity, but thats not even a thing in 14 anymore) if you know the formula, but there will NEVER be a difference across pieces of the same ilvl.


Comparatively, you have EQ which treats AC, HP and Mana, Base stats, secondary stats, tertiary stats, and resists as different values with different weights and has a range of allowable weights per zone.

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People rush through the game to get that "beat it first!" pat on the back and then we get flooded with "Where all the endgame content?" complaints.

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Thats a symptom of todays design.

I had world firsts in EQ in 2 different guilds for 8 or 9 expansions. We killed stuff and then we... killed days worth of other stuff. Beating the last boss of a raid zone in an expansion meant we still had 2-3 FULL RAID ZONES of relevant content to do (and then it started meaning we had 6 one-off dragons, a couple 36 man zones, a couple 24 man augment farms, a couple raid zones, epic 2.0 fights, and a raid zone for trash farming for augments) on our other raid nights. We had aa farms, or involved tradeskilling, or epic quests that took weeks or months of doing stuff. We could farm old content for fun toys to play with (clicky illusions, clicky shrinks, clicky levitate, clicky haste, clicky shoot a fireball pewpew)

We didnt kill 4 trial bosses in a day and have nothing meaningful to do until reset because you maxxed your tradeskills FOR THE NEXT TWO YEARS in 100 leves, 2 weeks of custom deliveries and crystarium quests.

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Back in the day, everyone knew everyone - If you screwed someone / a guild over, you bet your ass your name would be on a forum and everyone would know what happened and who to ignore. Now? Not so much

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Now its harassing, bullying and naming and shaming.

Which are three things you SHOULD ABSOLUTELY DO to people who act in that way. The only people who benefit from the prevailing mindset of "now now, we cant shame them for instigating BS" are the people instigating the BS.

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Originally Posted by Mikhaill

Wow, so this is a post.
What if people just wanted to escape? Why they have to be broken and depressed and have no purpose.
We all play these games for different reasons. Quit with the judgemental bs.

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Several studies has confirmed what i just wrote in my post, mmorpgs does have a negative impact on psychological health and social life of minors.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3820076/
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/6ca...84856f7adc.pdf
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/287...b030ecb5f7.pdf Page 19

The amount of people in denial to this negative mmorpgs effects is saddening.

Old mmorpgs were bad in particular, they were extra grindy and required a ton more time to do anything, it was bad design which was made on purpose because developers couldnt care less to create more content. Traveling to do X thing even took more time than running a dungeon in our current game, forming a group was even longer.

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Originally Posted by Kirsten_Rev

These bad sides apply to any form of online gaming, or really online interactions in general. It's the alter ego existing within a virtual space that creates problems for people, not whether a game features deep, time-consuming mechanics or pay-to-win loot boxes. There are stories of physical harm going back to the 70s and 80s, with studies showing that Pong could elicit negative physiological responses. A man died from a heart attack that arose from a compromised cardiovascular system exacerbated primarily by the Berzerk arcade game back in 1982. There have been suicides arising from old MMOs like EverQuest, and at least one infanticide resulting from a mother's addiction to FarmVille. It's all over the place.
That's not to say it isn't an issue. You're absolutely right to bring it up, and I offer my sympathies for what seems like a set of rough personal experiences. But it's a problem that has arisen with the internet and virtual online environments in general, not any specific title or type of online game.

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Of course gaming in general is a time taker, and there were people who abused it even if it was not needed.
However the game design does have a giant impact on time spent and investment felt by anyone who played particular game. I could guarantee you if you compare a average wow player in mid 2000 to the current one, the old type will have significantly more time spent per day than modern player.
The amount of time spent on a game has its negative effects on a person who is playing them, the longer he plays, the worse and it has been proven in studies.

Overall I think they are a little easier because they are more streamlined and we as a player base have more knowledge. I think what changed the dynamic of old school to new school wasn't min/maxing but how you went about it. Back in the dizzay you could look it up and maybe find some vague information but it was far easier to just ask someone in game. That's the socialization that made an MMO. Joining a good guild ment direct access to good knowledge. Now FCs barely know jack and go to limsa and shout out if someone can explain main stat to substat ratios. Or that you need help with something, you will mostly likely be met with silence or told to use PF.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

Overall I think they are a little easier because they are more streamlined and we as a player base have more knowledge. I think what changed the dynamic of old school to new school wasn't min/maxing but how you went about it. Back in the dizzay you could look it up and maybe find some vague information but it was far easier to just ask someone in game. That's the socialization that made an MMO. Joining a good guild ment direct access to good knowledge. Now FCs barely know jack and go to limsa and shout out if someone can explain main stat to substat ratios. Or that you need help with something, you will mostly likely be met with silence or told to use PF.

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Sadly you're not anywhere near wrong. It's why I'm kindof staying away from FCs on my alts cause if I'm in a large FC I should NOT be using PF for normal content. It's how I feel so if Imma be using that for normal crap I might as well be single. The hell lol.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I still don't know what this means when people say it. What do you mean by 'people just don't have that kind of time and schedules anymore in today's world?' Are you saying they did back then? What changed, exactly? Probably you just became an adult when back then you were still in your teens/young adulthood.

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The economy changed.

More people are having to work two jobs, etc. Back in the early 00's, it wasn't quite as bad, stuff wasn't as expensive, etc.

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Originally Posted by Nyvara

I was thinking about this the other day, I used to as I'm sure many others played Everquest.

Back in the day..

If you pulled a pack with out CC you died

If you tried to pull a pack with out a puller you died.

You needed a buffer/debuffer in the group or you died.

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I was just thinking about this when I came across this post. I played EQ from the 3rd day it went live and for 8 more years. Played EQ2 for about 5-6 years. Played other games off and on (WOW, LOTR, some others) but none for very long. And I definitely feel like there is something missing from today's games, including FFXIV. Perhaps it is the lack of skills needed, the repetitive nature of so many quests and dungeons, the overall "vanilla" feel. I dunno, but there is for sure something missing. One thing that EQ had that no game has ever matched was the feeling of "we are in this together" - guilds actually mattered, and were not just some place to plant a garden or toss some statue into.

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Originally Posted by ToniRomo

MMOs used to be about exploring huge worlds, character progression, community and challenge.

Now it is mostly just AFKing in town until you get queued in with some random strangers you'll never see again to do braindead content. The world itself might as well not be there once you are done leveling. There's no real sense of character progression.

In playing the early 90s MMOs I was really excited thinking about what we would see the genre evolve to as technology advanced in 20 years. It feels like everything got simplified and we evolved backwards.

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Part of the minority here I guess, But I agree with most of what you say. There is only one real skill needed in FFXIV - the ability to dodge colored lights on the floor. There is no such thing as crowd control, debuffs are meh at best, FATES are an endless grind. I have been playing for about 8 months and during that time have gone from "wow this is great" to "what am I doing here".

My only other MMO was FF11. With that said, progression was PAINFUL unless you had friends available. Need help clearing an instance but your buddies aren't on? Or they're on but busy doing something else? You shout in Jeuno or Whitegate for 5 other randos and hope for the best. And leveling could be super fast or painfully slow. I soloed most of MNK while doing the books.

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MMOs used to be about exploring huge worlds, character progression, community and challenge. Now it is mostly just AFKing in town

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true, most of the time i keep thinking that future mmorpg might become a hub based type with this one huge town hub and a lot of instance/hub to explore (like PSO2), there is no use to put a lot of town where most of the traffic reside in 1 or 2 town only. yes you might miss the scenery/vista but for how long? 5 times circling in that place and iam sure majority of people didnt bother to explore anymore.

might as well put the effort to make more exploration/dungeon hub, and keep improving this one only town.

i come from very old school mmorpg where map didnt give you waypoint, no quest marker and when you need to search someone or some place you really need to look for landmark and actually search and explore the area, stuff like that, i kinda miss that actually. it still exist in some way but they also keep the graphic like back in 90's era which hurt my eyes lol

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Originally Posted by Amelia_Pond_Behemoth

My only other MMO was FF11. With that said, progression was PAINFUL unless you had friends available. Need help clearing an instance but your buddies aren't on? Or they're on but busy doing something else? You shout in Jeuno or Whitegate for 5 other randos and hope for the best. And leveling could be super fast or painfully slow. I soloed most of MNK while doing the books.

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The magic of FFXI happened in the guilds and guild stuff done at endgame honestly, The pug scene in ffxi was utter garbage. Your guild was your key to that game. Without a decent one your progression grinded to a complete halt outside merit grinding or leveling alt jobs.

Leveling was well slow and painful, especially if you were not on an optimal party job (which made up like 1/4th the job pool at best). I leveled mainly with my guild in that game so never minded it much was in ventrillo talking the whole time.

The FFXI leveling method would never work anymore I feel at least not on a large scale. I wish mmos would look at how FFXI did endgame, expansions, and gearing though and bring that into the current era... cause that game use to have more valid progression based endgame content available at one time then any other mmo on the market by several magnitudes. Content was just never fully negated. Would be like FFXIV's endgame consisting of everything from ARR to Current with all gear still having its place in some situational BIS build, Instead of having 1 raid to rule them all type endgame. Yea would not work with FFXIV's design but I do wish the WoW model did not become the default design. (Linear content and Ilvls are bad in my opinion).

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Originally Posted by Barraind

I lvl and resulting formulas are drag and drop "heres the ilvl, the stats will ALWAYS be: X or Y/Z or A/B/C or E/F/G/H" and you can determine exactly what the total stat value will be of any given piece of gear at that ilvl (and sometimes varying by rarity, but thats not even a thing in 14 anymore) if you know the formula, but there will NEVER be a difference across pieces of the same ilvl.

Comparatively, you have EQ which treats AC, HP and Mana, Base stats, secondary stats, tertiary stats, and resists as different values with different weights and has a range of allowable weights per zone.

I had world firsts in EQ in 2 different guilds for 8 or 9 expansions. We killed stuff and then we... killed days worth of other stuff. Beating the last boss of a raid zone in an expansion meant we still had 2-3 FULL RAID ZONES of relevant content to do (and then it started meaning we had 6 one-off dragons, a couple 36 man zones, a couple 24 man augment farms, a couple raid zones, epic 2.0 fights, and a raid zone for trash farming for augments) on our other raid nights. We had aa farms, or involved tradeskilling, or epic quests that took weeks or months of doing stuff. We could farm old content for fun toys to play with (clicky illusions, clicky shrinks, clicky levitate, clicky haste, clicky shoot a fireball pewpew)

We didnt kill 4 trial bosses in a day and have nothing meaningful to do until reset because you maxxed your tradeskills FOR THE NEXT TWO YEARS in 100 leves, 2 weeks of custom deliveries and crystarium quests.

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This - and I basically just did exactly that. Do I feel like I accomplished anything? Nope. I have done more in this game in a few months than I did in EQ in the first 3 years, but I don't feel like I really accomplished anything here but check off another box.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Video games are not a disease either.

pan·dem·ic
/panˈdemik/

adjective

1.
(of a disease) prevalent over a whole country or the world.

noun
noun: pandemic; plural noun: pandemics
1.
an outbreak of a pandemic disease.

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Depression, Anxiety disorders, personality disorder are diseases, and are pandemic to some countries, and one of the factors in it's increase is the long exposure to videogames: Particulary MMORPGs.
I never said videogames were a disease. Im saying they make people with some diseases even more sick, and in several countries of the world, these diseases are in fact, pandemic.

See, South Korea and Japan. Countries where the dissociation with real life - a healthy biosocial network is not possible for a lot of people because they just shut into their rooms to do mostly anime, series, or videogames. Yeah, wine and beer are not diseases, nor are hamburguers. Alcoholism and Morbid Obesity are.
Same here.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

And my grade thesis was a bit about psychology of gamers in relationship with learning processes and yes, found a lot of evidence for a subportion of the subjects (NEETs mostly) which presented several psychological disorders that were only reinforced by their exposition to videogames, MMORPGs and MMOs in general being the most recurrent "drug".

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

Depression, Anxiety disorders, personality disorder are diseases, and are pandemic to some countries, and one of the factors in it's increase is the long exposure to videogames: Particulary MMORPGs.
I never said videogames were a disease. Im saying they make people with some diseases even more sick, and in several countries of the world, these diseases are in fact, pandemic.

See, South Korea and Japan. Countries where the dissociation with real life - a healthy biosocial network is not possible for a lot of people because they just shut into their rooms to do mostly anime, series, or videogames. Yeah, wine and beer are not diseases, nor are hamburguers. Alcoholism and Morbid Obesity are.
Same here.

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I'm sorry but equating MMORPGs to drugs and saying MMORPGs make the diseased even sicker comes across as needlessly alarmist and hyperbolic.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

Depression, Anxiety disorders, personality disorder are diseases, and are pandemic to some countries, and one of the factors in it's increase is the long exposure to videogames: Particulary MMORPGs.
I never said videogames were a disease. Im saying they make people with some diseases even more sick, and in several countries of the world, these diseases are in fact, pandemic.

See, South Korea and Japan. Countries where the dissociation with real life - a healthy biosocial network is not possible for a lot of people because they just shut into their rooms to do mostly anime, series, or videogames. Yeah, wine and beer are not diseases, nor are hamburguers. Alcoholism and Morbid Obesity are.
Same here.

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The assumption that something must be wrong with people who take one look at a given society and say no thanks is utterly hilarious to say the least.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

The assumption that something must be wrong with people who take one look at a given society and say no thanks is utterly hilarious to say the least.

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I agree. I've studied just how overworked Japanese students and salary-men can get, or how companies over there hire for life. I will not look down on a NEET for rejecting that lifestyle.
I was pressured into getting a college degree and it made me miserable. I was pressured into my first two jobs and they made me miserable. How can I look down at people who who would rather be happy? Making money for the company I work for certainly isn't bringing me joy and it's not something I'll look back on in 40 years with any pride. If a shut-in wants to play FFXIV and they can afford it, then I say more power to them.

The only thing I miss in gaming is games that weren't afraid to be complex or difficult.

Like the mmo's where your quest npc's would be among high level mobs and you'd have to find what to do from the quest text alone. MMO's where they weren't afraid to ask you to make your own arrows, poison for your blades, find the ingredients. Games like the old pokemon or other rpg's with those labyrinth mazes that you'd spend hours lost in, barely making it out with your team at their limit. Those old Tomb raiders with the few save crystals buried hidden in dangerous spots in the zone. Those puzzles where there was a single hard to see switch or trigger somewhere in a huge area and you were expected to find it. Those ccg's that weren't afraid to include all sorts of indepth strategies and no explanations as to how to utilize them.

Nowadays gaming can sometimes feel insulting, like your intelligence as a player is constantly being severely underestimated. Developers seem afraid that almost anything that involves figuring out will be too complicated for players. I can understand why they do it and making games accessible probably sells them to a wider audience, but it's still a little sad. Anything not seen as straightforward is inevitably nerfed or simplified. FF is far from the worst game in this regard, but it's one reason I left WoW. That game constantly felt insulting.

I still enjoy gaming quite a lot, so it's a little nitpick, but I do miss the days when it felt my intelligence and patience was actually being tested and the developers expectations for me felt high.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

but it's one reason I left WoW. That game constantly felt insulting.

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I never felt insulted because I'm simply not inclined to ever feel insulted, but the steady decay of WoW in the name of "accessibility" is certainly one of the great tragedies of video game history.

I'm actually not a fan of most of the QoL changes the past few years: GC freelancing, cross-server PF, world visit, instanced zones, etc. They've streamlined the game while also making it very lonely because there's no real benefit to FCs, Linkshells, etc, outside of chat. There was a point where you could solo, but it was more beneficial to call on someone. The pool of players has become both very large and very diluted.

I started out on servers that were small- to medium-sized in Heavensward, like Zalera and Cactuar, and I built up pretty sizeable pools of familiar faces and Linkshells. People who were either teaching me or being taught by me. A social Linkshell I started with one friend that slowly became filled with other people new to Cactuar (still running today!). PVP Linkshells because it was better to Frontlines with other scrubs than alone.

No longer a thing. Rebuilding my old Linkshell as a CWLS is a much longer, slower process than it was the first time because we're now encompassing an entire datacenter. I'm holding out for some actually meaningful FC content. All I do with mine is make a little small talk while I fish.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I am glad you have decided for everyone what an MMORPG needs to be. Perhaps these 'depressed, broken people' you spoke of sought an escape. Perhaps their circumstances made it so that they couldn't go out into the real world(physical disability) or did not wish to(social issues). Or perhaps it was simply more stimulating them to play complex games that engaged their brain. Now, a place where those players could feel like they had a home has been taken away. Now, all that exists are casual MMOs really. People have made RL friends and even significant others from these second homes that you criticize. I guess what I'm trying to say is, who are you to decide how others should spend their time?

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I havent much to say on the issue that this thread is actually discussing since FFXIV is the first MMO I've ever played and I havent read the whole thread either, I just stumbled over this comment and have to say: I can relate to the talk about making RL-friendships and meeting your SO through the game.
And thats the reason I want to comment on this - remember that I said this was the first (and infact only) MMO I ever played? (I kinda do hope you remember because if you dont, you might wanna see a doctor for short-term-memory-loss... besides the point)

Maybe I'm missunderstanding your comment, but it seems to imply to me that you dont believe that making meanigful, real life connections is possible in this game - or in other "casual MMOs" - and I just want to assure you that it still is, that it still happens and that people are still grateful for that. And everytime I see comments wishing back for "the old days" when they could find friends within the game they were playing, I cant help but to think about all the amazing from all over the world that are in my FC and came to the last two EU-fanfests so we could all meet up, despite living thousands of kilometers apart. I cant help but remember a 10-hour flight I took to america to visit a friend from the game and about the other people who took a simliar long flight so we could all spend 2 amazing weeks together. I cant help to think about how I would have never met my boyfriend if it wasnt for this game!

Please, dont missunderstand this as me disagreeing with you - its very much the opposite! All I want to do is to point out that all of those amazing things - longlasting, meanigful friendships, finding love, finding joy - are still happening today, in this game and thats an amazing thing!
And I feel sorry for those who cant see that - probably not you, Zabuza, but certainly some other people here...

These replies are very on point. I agree, for sure there are different things that are good about old and new mmos, and many of those are not compatible with each other. Sometimes I miss certain things that old games did well, but most people today wouldn't like that style. At least that's what mmo devs believe and growth of subscriptions supports that.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Making money for the company I work for certainly isn't bringing me joy and it's not something I'll look back on in 40 years with any pride. If a shut-in wants to play FFXIV and they can afford it, then I say more power to them.

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It's cool to see somebody who's aware of that and tolerant. I used to push myself to mental exhaustion, depression and break down. After a recovery period I began to live a much more self indulgent lifestyle, spending most of my time doing what I enjoy without feeling guilty about it. If there's no happiness then everything else in life loses meaning. We're people not machines. Talking like this reminds me of Eulmore..

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

I never felt insulted because I'm simply not inclined to ever feel insulted, but the steady decay of WoW in the name of "accessibility" is certainly one of the great tragedies of video game history.

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At least for that specific game they made Classic version so the option is there to reject modern QoL. I hear it's quite authentic to the original.

I also remember how much of a time sink MMOs were.... time I no longer have, or want, to dedicate to a game.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

At least for that specific game they made Classic version so the option is there to reject modern QoL. I hear it's quite authentic to the original.

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I'm done doing business with Blizzard, but Classic wouldn't satisfy me anyway. I want a game that's still being developed, just in accordance with an older design philosophy, not a basically time locked blast from the past. Classic would have been a nice break, but I would have eventually run out of interesting things to do.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

I havent much to say on the issue that this thread is actually discussing since FFXIV is the first MMO I've ever played and I havent read the whole thread either, I just stumbled over this comment and have to say: I can relate to the talk about making RL-friendships and meeting your SO through the game.
And thats the reason I want to comment on this - remember that I said this was the first (and infact only) MMO I ever played? (I kinda do hope you remember because if you dont, you might wanna see a doctor for short-term-memory-loss... besides the point)

Maybe I'm missunderstanding your comment, but it seems to imply to me that you dont believe that making meanigful, real life connections is possible in this game - or in other "casual MMOs" - and I just want to assure you that it still is, that it still happens and that people are still grateful for that. And everytime I see comments wishing back for "the old days" when they could find friends within the game they were playing, I cant help but to think about all the amazing from all over the world that are in my FC and came to the last two EU-fanfests so we could all meet up, despite living thousands of kilometers apart. I cant help but remember a 10-hour flight I took to america to visit a friend from the game and about the other people who took a simliar long flight so we could all spend 2 amazing weeks together. I cant help to think about how I would have never met my boyfriend if it wasnt for this game!

Please, dont missunderstand this as me disagreeing with you - its very much the opposite! All I want to do is to point out that all of those amazing things - longlasting, meanigful friendships, finding love, finding joy - are still happening today, in this game and thats an amazing thing!
And I feel sorry for those who cant see that - probably not you, Zabuza, but certainly some other people here...

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Well, all I know is for me, the closest bonds I formed on an MMO were doing the Chains of Promathia missions with my static for the story at the time. Similar to how those who fight together on a battlefield form a unique, tight knit bond, the same applies when people struggle together. It doesn't exist as much in games like these because there really is no need for people to struggle together. Savage is optional and can easily be done in PF with people you won't see again. All the other content is done in DF, and you DEFINITELY don't see them again. The struggle with a certain group of people on a persistent basis is notably absent. With dungeons, you're lucky if you get a 'hi' from the people in your random group. The rest is just speed running the content, while probably looking at something on your other monitor. There is very little engagement, and most people only do them to reach their weekly tomestone cap.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Well, all I know is for me, the closest bonds I formed on an MMO were doing the Chains of Promathia missions with my static for the story at the time. Similar to how those who fight together on a battlefield form a unique, tight knit bond, the same applies when people struggle together. It doesn't exist as much in games like these because there really is no need for people to struggle together. Savage is optional and can easily be done in PF with people you won't see again. All the other content is done in DF, and you DEFINITELY don't see them again. The struggle with a certain group of people on a persistent basis is notably absent. With dungeons, you're lucky if you get a 'hi' from the people in your random group. The rest is just speed running the content, while probably looking at something on your other monitor. There is very little engagement, and most people only do them to reach their weekly tomestone cap.

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This is spot on...id pay good money for the devs to read this comment and actually have them take some form of action. Ive said for years this game feels very hollow in more ways than one.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Well, all I know is for me, the closest bonds I formed on an MMO were doing the Chains of Promathia missions with my static for the story at the time. Similar to how those who fight together on a battlefield form a unique, tight knit bond, the same applies when people struggle together. It doesn't exist as much in games like these because there really is no need for people to struggle together. Savage is optional and can easily be done in PF with people you won't see again. All the other content is done in DF, and you DEFINITELY don't see them again. The struggle with a certain group of people on a persistent basis is notably absent. With dungeons, you're lucky if you get a 'hi' from the people in your random group. The rest is just speed running the content, while probably looking at something on your other monitor. There is very little engagement, and most people only do them to reach their weekly tomestone cap.

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Amen to this - not saying strong friendships aren't formed, but honestly I've found it harder to make those bonds - especially in the last 10 years of gaming.
I am still friends with many of my old linkshell members from FFXI - I started playing and met them back in 2004ish. In FFXIV, there's only really two players I've known since the game's release and who I would consider "close friends"... people seem content to play solo, hardly talk in chat, remain in FCs for the buffs over the companionship, and don't even really interact in dungeons unless it's to blame the someone for something (/sarcasm, but you get what I mean).

I feel like FFXIV, and modern MMOs too, that it's harder to forge those bonds because gameplay doesn't really foster it. It's not for lack of trying, but when you only need to check in with players once in a while to make progress, the social aspect of the game suffers.

That being said, it's not all bad. I have enjoyed seeing people come together this week for Moonfire Faire - Costa Del Sol on Hyperion has been pretty chatty & friendly; it's just a shame that this level of interaction will be gone until the next event that brings everyone together :(

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Amen to this - not saying strong friendships aren't formed, but honestly I've found it harder to make those bonds - especially in the last 10 years of gaming.

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There are more people I talk with from my EQ and wow days than people I talk to I've met in GW2 / 14 / any newer games.

The feeling of games creating a community is long gone at this point. You dont need one, just press the queue button and never say anything all day every day.

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Originally Posted by Barraind

There are more people I talk with from my EQ and wow days than people I talk to I've met in GW2 / 14 / any newer games.

The feeling of games creating a community is long gone at this point. You dont need one, just press the queue button and never say anything all day every day.

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Exacttttttttly!

I still remember my first group boss kill in EQ. How many remember their first in this game, or any recent game?

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Originally Posted by Windsun33

I still remember my first group boss kill in EQ. How many remember their first in this game, or any recent game?

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I do: That level 10 guildhest boss. I nearly panicked seeing all the adds coming out.

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Originally Posted by Windsun33

I still remember my first group boss kill in EQ. How many remember their first in this game, or any recent game?

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I remember the first time I tanked in this game. I asked my FC if anyone would patiently come along and give me advise. That was in Sastasha. I also remembered the first time I healed in this game as a pug. The tank was also a first timer in that and wasn't equipped for tanking at all and her health dropped like a stone every time. This was in the Copperbell Mines. Heck, I even remember the first time I even did a dungeon run in an MMORPG, that was the Deadmines in WoW way back in 2007.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I'm sorry but equating MMORPGs to drugs and saying MMORPGs make the diseased even sicker comes across as needlessly alarmist and hyperbolic.

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Yet it isn't.

Videogames are confirmed to activate the very same processes and brain interconnections than several kind of drugs. In fact in some cases even physiological effects have been documented, rare occurrence but still there. Let alone what social isolation does to basic brain functions - And guess just what videogames in general do. Social Isolation.
Specially in the case of people who plays for several, several hours. I'm not talking about 2-4 hours. Im talking about teenagers or NEET adults that can spend well over +10 hours daily. That is particularly unhealthy for people with already diagnosed psychological or psychiatric sickness. Last thing you want a person with depression do is to spend his whole life in a room watching a monitor not interacting with anyone. Which a good chuck of populations in several countries are doing.

Again, im not saying videogames provoke depression, anxiety or something like that. Im saying that spending 8 hours of your day in videogames is alarming for an integral biosocial development and psychological health, let alone if you are already diagnosed.

And no, NEETs are not a "minority" playing these MMORPGs. In fact, the issue here is that the whole game design of these kind of videogames revolve on making the games specifically for them. The myth of "grind is part of the design" is just a cheap excuse when you notice that is exactly them the target audience of these kind of games.

Just like whales are for the monetization of these games.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I agree. I've studied just how overworked Japanese students and salary-men can get, or how companies over there hire for life. I will not look down on a NEET for rejecting that lifestyle.
I was pressured into getting a college degree and it made me miserable. I was pressured into my first two jobs and they made me miserable. How can I look down at people who who would rather be happy? Making money for the company I work for certainly isn't bringing me joy and it's not something I'll look back on in 40 years with any pride. If a shut-in wants to play FFXIV and they can afford it, then I say more power to them.

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Thats tangent to what im saying.
Of course unhealthy societies generate unhealthy people.
But you cannot justify social/reality escapism, let alone when that escapism is something that is supporting said unhealthy society in the first place (operational conditioning for mass consumption of goods and media - Videogame addicts.)

"More power to them" - You are just supporting a passive form of suicide. Then again, you might even argue that suicide is a personal option that should be supported and of course, we don't hold people to the same standars of health.
I suggest watching a few classes or talks of Robert Sapolsky, specially on depression.

That people needs health care and social support to HEAL from their SICKNESS.

Not "more power to them" to slowly kill themselves, and at the very least, permanently damage their brain functions.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

Yet it isn't.

Videogames are confirmed to activate the very same processes and brain interconnections than several kind of drugs. In fact in some cases even physiological effects have been documented, rare occurrence but still there. Let alone what social isolation does to basic brain functions - And guess just what videogames in general do. Social Isolation.
Specially in the case of people who plays for several, several hours. I'm not talking about 2-4 hours. Im talking about teenagers or NEET adults that can spend well over +10 hours daily. That is particularly unhealthy for people with already diagnosed psychological or psychiatric sickness. Last thing you want a person with depression do is to spend his whole life in a room watching a monitor not interacting with anyone. Which a good chuck of populations in several countries are doing.

Again, im not saying videogames provoke depression, anxiety or something like that. Im saying that spending 8 hours of your day in videogames is alarming for an integral biosocial development and psychological health, let alone if you are already diagnosed.

And no, NEETs are not a "minority" playing these MMORPGs. In fact, the issue here is that the whole game design of these kind of videogames revolve on making the games specifically for them. The myth of "grind is part of the design" is just a cheap excuse when you notice that is exactly them the target audience of these kind of games.

Just like whales are for the monetization of these games.



Thats tangent to what im saying.
Of course unhealthy societies generate unhealthy people.
But you cannot justify social/reality escapism, let alone when that escapism is something that is supporting said unhealthy society in the first place (operational conditioning for mass consumption of goods and media - Videogame addicts.)

"More power to them" - You are just supporting a passive form of suicide. Then again, you might even argue that suicide is a personal option that should be supported and of course, we don't hold people to the same standars of health.
I suggest watching a few classes or talks of Robert Sapolsky, specially on depression.

That people needs health care and social support to HEAL from their SICKNESS.

Not "more power to them" to slowly kill themselves, and at the very least, permanently damage their brain functions.

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Ah, so we're back to saying that those of us who enjoyed the old MMORPGs are sick and broken people who shouldn't have games that we enjoy, because we're not healthy enough to decide that on our own. Only you and people like you are stable enough to decide for us. Thank you for your concern, but I interact with people around me IRL just fine. Problem is, I am typically bored by IRL interactions. I find most of the conversations of the people around me IRL to be shallow and uninteresting. Though it sounds as though you're saying I should be forced into those interactions and not be allowed to do something that is interesting to me and which actually engages me mentally.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

Yet it isn't.

Videogames are confirmed to activate the very same processes and brain interconnections than several kind of drugs. In fact in some cases even physiological effects have been documented, rare occurrence but still there. Let alone what social isolation does to basic brain functions - And guess just what videogames in general do.

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And yet there are clear distinct differences between illegal drugs and video games. You found some points of commonality between two things and you're using that as an excuse to call video games "drugs", but that is still nonsense. You can link coffee and drugs and claim they activate the very same processes and brain interconnections with several kind of drugs, but it will still come off as nonsense if you call Starbucks a drug dealer.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

Yet it isn't.


"More power to them" - You are just supporting a passive form of suicide. Then again, you might even argue that suicide is a personal option that should be supported and of course, we don't hold people to the same standars of health.
I suggest watching a few classes or talks of Robert Sapolsky, specially on depression.

That people needs health care and social support to HEAL from their SICKNESS.

Not "more power to them" to slowly kill themselves, and at the very least, permanently damage their brain functions.

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You are making the grave mistake of equating a lifestyle to suicide. How one chooses to live their life is completely antithetical to ending it. If you believe playing video games are a form of suicide, then that is because of your subjective viewpoints on what living life is.

By a different subjective measure, it can be said that those who engage in forms of entertainment have a zest for life. I'm afraid your not being very objective when it comes to the topic of video games and other people's lifestyle choices.

I support people seeking happiness regardless of employment or education status. You call it passive suicide, I call it life.