Proposed Samurai Adjustments/Fixes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tatsemaru

As Sam player, i enjoyed the Shinten cycle bewteen gcd.
As Drk player, i enjoyed the dark arts cycle between gcd.

my personal opinion (it dont matter if it triggers people saying this) if pressing 1 button between gcd is too much to handle, it's no wonder why shb jobs are super dumb to play with no flex or flow and doesn't reward player skill (looking at Ninjas).
the "dark arts" (alltho nothing compared to the Shinten we were talking about) has 1 thing in common with Shinten, and that is, if your not paying attention and over spent, you f'ed yourself over. take it like a champ and learn from it.

It's understandable that some people prefer NOT spaming shinten due to latency, cronic tunnle vision, amnesia - forgeting when to stop spending kenki for that kaiten that allways seams to come 3 gcd's too early..am i right? i know every sam had accidentally overspent kenki once or twice? dont even deny...

The point problem with Sam at its core right now, is
1) the lvl 80 skill being a joke. buffing their potency on the first 4 ticks like any sam is going to be "hold on i'll go meditate for 45 seconds, but when im back..your gonna feel the wrath of this midare shoha combo"
2) the 55 seconds meikyo vs the 60 second kaeshi
3) the obvious dps compared to drg/mnks with raid utility and it's magical counterpart, the blm
4) the clunky rotation that forces you to either a) over use a yukikaze b) become a dragoon litterally c) loose 400 potency with the new "Hagakure"
5) Why did they even fix what wasn't broke with Hagakure? (half the sam that had the tunnle vision and amnesia issues will argue no.5 but it's their opinion)

My only question to the Dev team is, do they even PLAY the job?

---

At it's core, samurai was very simple but for sheer fact samurai is very appealing to lots of players which means lots of bad players play samurai and lots of them hated hagakura and outright not used it making samurai a meme for only pulling 4k . SE took it away and gave us the brain dead Ikki to help the bad samurai.
Which... Didn't actually because now samurai works on a 60 burst window making the rotation strict. So they actually made samurai harder because you could have meikyo ready but tsubame still on 20secs because you messed up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

And the part about samurai not being high apm, that just tells me you either never played samurai seriously or just occasionally played it.
Back in sigma samurai was very much a high apm job. Because bis was sks but you know the beauty of samurai thanks to hagakura? Samurai could flex from being a ultra fast job to a bursty slow crt samurai.

---

Trying to find hard data on this, but I don't recall SAM being particularly high APM compared to a NIN or BRD (MNK?). And yes, I was running SkS melds almost the whole of SB. And its most definitely not higher APM than a SMN or NIN current expansion.

EDIT: looking at the Omega clears on 90+ percentiles SAM avaraged around 40 CPM, BRD 46 CPM, NIN 45 CPM, MNK 44 CPM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tatsemaru

my personal opinion (it dont matter if it triggers people saying this) if pressing 1 button between gcd is too much to handle, it's no wonder why shb jobs are super dumb to play with no flex or flow and doesn't reward player skill (looking at Ninjas).
the "dark arts" (alltho nothing compared to the Shinten we were talking about) has 1 thing in common with Shinten, and that is, if your not paying attention and over spent, you f'ed yourself over. take it like a champ and learn from it.

It's understandable that some people prefer NOT spaming shinten due to latency, cronic tunnle vision, amnesia - forgeting when to stop spending kenki for that kaiten that allways seams to come 3 gcd's too early..am i right? i know every sam had accidentally overspent kenki once or twice? dont even deny...

---

It also has another thing in common: its a one button resource dump, between GCDs, giving you a flat potency bonus.

And the reason I don't like it is not due to the "effort" it requires. Its a kenki dump. Pressing one button over and over and over again with minimal thought put into it is just plain old boring to me (hence the comparison to DRK).

Currently I have no issue with the amount of Shintens. Sure, if you save up a few for a burst phase its slightly tedious, but not unbearable. I just don't want more of it. Surely they can come up with more imaginative mechanics for the class than "press Shinten moAr".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lersayil

Trying to find hard data on this, but I don't recall SAM being particularly high APM compared to a NIN or BRD (MNK?). And yes, I was running SkS melds almost the whole of SB. And its most definitely not higher APM than a SMN or NIN current expansion.

EDIT: looking at the Omega clears on 90+ percentiles SAM avaraged around 35 CPM, BRD 46 CPM, NIN 45 CPM, MNK 44 CPM.




It also has another thing in common: its a one button resource dump, between GCDs, giving you a flat potency bonus.

And the reason I don't like it is not due to the "effort" it requires. Its a kenki dump. Pressing one button over and over and over again with minimal thought put into it is just plain old boring to me (hence the comparison to DRK).

Currently I have no issue with the amount of Shintens. Sure, if you save up a few for a burst phase its slightly tedious, but not unbearable. I just don't want more of it. Surely they can come up with more imaginative mechanics for the class than "press Shinten moAr".

---

Well if you compare to jobs like nin and brd ofc it not going to be THAT high, more so smn. I never SAID samurai was higher than other jobs. I just said it had a high APM. Don't really need to find data to know that.
Though with bard its sorta shifts due to not always getting procs, same with mnk.

You also have to keep in mind in alpha, the bis changed from sks to crt. It was only in sigma where bis was sks, I'm not going to go look through all that to prove a point though to see their cpm.

So you running SkS all through SB is kinda weird and kinda proves my point you wasn't fully invested into samurai if you wasn't following the bis to get the maximum amount of dps you could get.
Like...show me your parses as a samurai. Show me you actually knew how to play the job well.

Because you'll know how important hagakure is in fights and why the current samurai is kinda a pain due to things not lining up and downtime hurting now.

So far you're complaining is you don't want to use shinten more even though you keep saying you don't mind it.

If you don't want to spam shinten, whats your idea how to bring back fluidity to samurai? you gave no idea's other than you don't want to spam shinten which isn't even hard to do.

I feel like shinten brings samurai to a decent place tbh. Shinten spam is just what SAM needs tbh. Without shinten our rotation would be extremly boring =s
I'd take more shintens anyday tbh. Its fun using oGCD's between GCD's.

I still don't think SAM needs anything new tbh. The only 2 things they need to change is Meditation and server ticks. Just make it instant. Server ticks needs to go.
The other is potency buffs for our combo's (Yukikaze/jinpu/gekko/Kasha/Shifu) I honestly don't think we need anything else. We just lack damage that's all.

Sure our rotation is a bit stiff without old hagakure but its still not that bad. Everything lines up just fine if you know what your doing.

Looks like they're going to redo Shoha's mechanic for 5.1.

Hagakaure was removed because they thought it complicated the rotation too much. I don't think the devs played the same class we do. Hagakaure was key in keeping the rotation smooth no matter what skill speed tier you were at.

Ninja is going to be focused on first for like 5.08, so don't expect any Sam changes for a while.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaz

Looks like they're going to redo Shoha's mechanic for 5.1.

Hagakaure was removed because they thought it complicated the rotation too much. I don't think the devs played the same class we do. Hagakaure was key in keeping the rotation smooth no matter what skill speed tier you were at.

Ninja is going to be focused on first for like 5.08, so don't expect any Sam changes for a while.

---

We might not get any action changes but I think we'll get simple potency buffs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lersayil

And the reason I don't like it is not due to the "effort" it requires. Its a kenki dump. Pressing one button over and over and over again with minimal thought put into it is just plain old boring to me (hence the comparison to DRK).

---

I would still argue that if you play brain-deadly spaming the button, you would over spend your kenki for the kaiten. Thus making it either a) rewarding for those paying attention or b) really dumb cos its the same spaming butt-wait..missed my kaiten.

Then again, people have different views. Menjority sam player prefer the shinten in serious content. Casual sam players are indifferent to the new rotation cos "We gEt To uSe MorE MidArE" ive seen people say..

Bottom line, the old hagakure gave samurai job a flexibility and a flow when playing at casual or serious lvl. If you dislike the old Hagakure, thats utterly and entirely your respected opinion, but you cant deny the current clunky feeling of the job in shb

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

At it's core, samurai was very simple but for sheer fact samurai is very appealing to lots of players which means lots of bad players play samurai and lots of them hated hagakura and outright not used it making samurai a meme for only pulling 4k . SE took it away and gave us the brain dead Ikki to help the bad samurai.
Which... Didn't actually because now samurai works on a 60 burst window making the rotation strict. So they actually made samurai harder because you could have meikyo ready but tsubame still on 20secs because you messed up.

---

Glad we agree ^

I really think the dev team see SAM just a MNK without utilities! Since 4.3 they kept it that way. And from the Q&A they said will slightly increase its dps, I assure it's nothing more than putting SAM on par with MNK.

"Samurai’s burst is designed around benefitting from receiving party buffs from other party members." << another reason why SAM will never be as good as a BLM in parties.

I don't believe they'll give SAM any justice. (I'm already in stage 5, acceptance)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nier_Drakongod

"Samurai’s burst is designed around benefitting from receiving party buffs from other party members."

---

The huge, huge issue with that statement is that it worked perfectly fine in Stormblood because we could adapt to the raid buff window thanks to Hagakure (we could even overwrite two or three sen without them being "wasted" because we received a big amount of kenki for doing so), where now it has become a really, really strict rotation that entirely relies on stats just to line up somewhat nicely (and this doesn't remove how clunky the rotation can feel sometimes, like when having to overwrite a Yukikaze Sen). This imo should be looked at more carefully. I completely agree with their statement, but again the current way the job is designed doesn't really help to achieve the smooth playstyle we had before.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eliadil

The huge, huge issue with that statement is that it worked perfectly fine in Stormblood because we could adapt to the raid buff window thanks to Hagakure (we could even overwrite two or three sen without them being "wasted" because we received a big amount of kenki for doing so), where now it has become a really, really strict rotation that entirely relies on stats just to line up somewhat nicely (and this doesn't remove how clunky the rotation can feel sometimes, like when having to overwrite a Yukikaze Sen). This imo should be looked at more carefully. I completely agree with their statement, but again the current way the job is designed doesn't really help to achieve the smooth playstyle we had before.

---

The rotations don't even line up all that well. I saw one of the big rotations they use for a 2.06 GCD and while it may be great for the opener, all the cooldowns are all over the place for the rest of the rotation. Tsubame, Meikyo and Ikishoten don't line up with your Sen at all, making the rotation a ton more complicated that it used to be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaz

The rotations don't even line up all that well. I saw one of the big rotations they use for a 2.06 GCD and while it may be great for the opener, all the cooldowns are all over the place for the rest of the rotation. Tsubame, Meikyo and Ikishoten don't line up with your Sen at all, making the rotation a ton more complicated that it used to be.

---

This is exactly the issue I see peoples having right now, and what is imo the most urgent thing to be looked at.
While Guren in 4.X wasn't an issue to manage because it was our only big cooldown to watch out and plan for, now with the extra Tsubame to watch along with Senei and Ikishoten being at a 60sec cd, things tend to get all over the place.
While it could in theory work better if you refresh Higanbana at the same moment every time, we all know that because of skill speed and mechanics, it doesn't work like that at all. It works on paper, but not at all in practice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaz

The rotations don't even line up all that well. I saw one of the big rotations they use for a 2.06 GCD and while it may be great for the opener, all the cooldowns are all over the place for the rest of the rotation. Tsubame, Meikyo and Ikishoten don't line up with your Sen at all, making the rotation a ton more complicated that it used to be.

---

This and its mostly due to downtime.
That's why I think it needs to be on a shorter cooldown. Like 50secs for Tsubamae, meikyo and ikki.
If they were 50 secs it'll always be up when we need it, I would say 30 secs but that's overkill and would actually make sam pretty hard XD

Hagakure gets a 45 second cooldown back and it converts Sen into Meditate. This allows it to be used for Sen management when needed and as a DPS gain should it not be required. Flexible tool rewarding good use.

Senei needs a potency boost or its cooldown reduced. Either boosted around the 1800 range or CD in the 60 second range.

Nothing functionally wrong with Tsubame Gaeshi but it's kind of boring. Banana could use a different effect, as its applications are limited.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaz

Looks like they're going to redo Shoha's mechanic for 5.1.

Hagakaure was removed because they thought it complicated the rotation too much. I don't think the devs played the same class we do. Hagakaure was key in keeping the rotation smooth no matter what skill speed tier you were at.

Ninja is going to be focused on first for like 5.08, so don't expect any Sam changes for a while.

---

Where is there information that a developer said that? =o

I honestly don't think shoha is that bad. If we could meditate fishing with the server ticks reliable it wouldn't be that bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chimiko

Where is there information that a developer said that? =o

I honestly don't think shoha is that bad. If we could meditate fishing with the server ticks reliable it wouldn't be that bad.

---

Its in the Q&A. They're gonna make it so you can get meditate stacks other ways so we can do shoha more, also we might get a buff in 5.08

SAM has always been in my opinion the best melee dps from a flow standpoint but from a damage standpoint... it does too little. People don't want players to play as SAMs in end game content because of the lack of utility, yet they let BLMs in... gee I wonder why????
Its because they can do bonkers damage if played right, and that is what SAM should be doing with the correct play. SAM should be dealing the same damage as BLM or even more I would argue since the job is more complicated than BLM. However, here we are, still waiting since 4.0 for SAMs to be dealing the damage they should be doing...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

However, here we are, still waiting since 4.0 for SAMs to be dealing the damage they should be doing...

---

Samurai's damage in 4.0 was fine tbh when compared with the other melee dps, and synced perfectly with the party raid buffs because of Hagakure.

Now since the removal of the 10% slicing debuff, as well as the strict rotation that doesn't line up with the party, we lost both our superior damage and our ability to sync with the group.
The issue isn't about doing the same as BLM. It's about having something that can actually be valuable for the party. In Samurai's case its our damage and, quoting the devs here, our ability to profit from raid buffs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eliadil

Samurai's damage in 4.0 was fine tbh when compared with the other melee dps, and synced perfectly with the party raid buffs because of Hagakure.

Now since the removal of the 10% slicing debuff, as well as the strict rotation that doesn't line up with the party, we lost both our superior damage and our ability to sync with the group.
The issue isn't about doing the same as BLM. It's about having something that can actually be valuable for the party. In Samurai's case its our damage and, quoting the devs here, our ability to profit from raid buffs.

---

I remember after the BLM buff few players felt that SAMs DPS weren't enough to warrent the replacement of a NIN or a DRG (specifically when I was a DPS I played SAM but was hard to find PF groups that would let me in, most would not allow SAMs or would kick when they noticed they left SAM as an option). After the BLM buff MNKs had their much needed buff, but then they were basically breathing down SAMs necks till they got a buff... but it still wasn't quite as much as BLM damage still. (Also you need to take into consideration mechanics that force melee to get away from boss while BLM can just keep casting) I remember distinctly one time when I felt as if SAM was doing the damage it should have been doing... it was during God Kefka and my AST had gotten 2 enhanced arrows in a row and extended them for me. Man... I was pushing like 7-8k DPS midway through the fight when my other heal said "Holy Sh**, Bell Your at 8k!!) Too bad we wiped :(. Right now though... yeah SAMs are hurting. The lvl 80 skill... doesn't exist for some fights so its a dead skill and BLM is blowing SAMs out of the water right now. I didn't agree witht he removal of Hagakure as pointed it, it mad the flow feel akward all of a sudden and the new one is basically only now for dungeons/transitions. Its cooldowns feel... off for the goal of "lining up with party buffs". I agree SAM should be basically treated as the focal point that maximizes your party buffs, but right now it doesn't with its timings.

Bring back hagekure and buff potency

According to live letter we're getting some love in 5.08 and 5.1. Here's hoping that it's enough of a buff to put us on par with BLM in rDPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

I remember after the BLM buff few players felt that SAMs DPS weren't enough to warrent the replacement of a NIN or a DRG (specifically when I was a DPS I played SAM but was hard to find PF groups that would let me in, most would not allow SAMs or would kick when they noticed they left SAM as an option). After the BLM buff MNKs had their much needed buff, but then they were basically breathing down SAMs necks till they got a buff... but it still wasn't quite as much as BLM damage still. (Also you need to take into consideration mechanics that force melee to get away from boss while BLM can just keep casting) I remember distinctly one time when I felt as if SAM was doing the damage it should have been doing... it was during God Kefka and my AST had gotten 2 enhanced arrows in a row and extended them for me. Man... I was pushing like 7-8k DPS midway through the fight when my other heal said "Holy Sh**, Bell Your at 8k!!) Too bad we wiped :(. Right now though... yeah SAMs are hurting. The lvl 80 skill... doesn't exist for some fights so its a dead skill and BLM is blowing SAMs out of the water right now. I didn't agree witht he removal of Hagakure as pointed it, it mad the flow feel akward all of a sudden and the new one is basically only now for dungeons/transitions. Its cooldowns feel... off for the goal of "lining up with party buffs". I agree SAM should be basically treated as the focal point that maximizes your party buffs, but right now it doesn't with its timings.

---

I truly hope they'll take a big look at this indeed. And not by implementing a small fix like reducing the cooldown of Tsubame by ten seconds. The real issue isn't the cooldown of Tsubame, it's that we cannot line it up correctly at all because of downtimes, screwing up our rotation. Reducing the cooldown of an ability will not change the fact that if the fight needs us to back away, then we will back away, which displace the entire rotation. No matter how many SkS you can get, this issue will stay the same.

It could be avoided with Hagakure at the time because it allowed us to... Basically redo our opener whenever we wanted to burst. Something that can still be done with the current Hagakure but isn't worth doing atm because you end up wasting more potency by removing sens and not gaining kenki for it.

...Also, I don't know if it could help that much, but maybe if Tsubame's cooldown was affected by skillspeed we could manage a little bit better. But I'm not so sure of that, take this with a grain of salt. ^^

I think what I'd like to see is for Shoha to gain stacks for every Shinten used. Then after 5 shintens, you get one free big attack with Shoha.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryaz

I think what I'd like to see is for Shoha to gain stacks for every Shinten used. Then after 5 shintens, you get one free big attack with Shoha.

---

lmao, that's one way to be sure that they'll never add back the old Hagakure. Although... it could potentially be way more interesting if they did it like that. "Shinten spamming" would actually serve a purpose now too, yeah it would be the push of the same button, but with a payoff at the end every five shinten with Shoha... Yeah, that's a good idea tbh.