Lol you're kidding right? You do realize they literally hotwired WHMs utility into their personal DPS right? Their ultimate Lily payoff is straight out a DPS nuke, that sure does sound like healers should stop DPSing...
The idea that we need to DPS must go.
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08-02-2019, 09:36 PMExiled_Tonberry
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08-02-2019, 10:01 PMLodiNo, there isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demetri_Delethorn
I just recently cleared E1S, and it was probably the most healing-intense fight I've ever done. And guess what?
1- Half of my casts (gcds and ogcds) were damage spells.
2- We didn't need more healing (in fact, we had about 30% overhealing).
3- We had no heal-related deaths (both were instant kills with over 140k damage).
4- I wasn't even slacking, I was the lead healer by a small margin.
5- Oh, and if we followed your no-dps mindset we still wouldn't have won that fight.
There is a FINITE amount of healing required, which goes lower the better your party is.
Healers have a strong damage output realised by a mind-numbingly simple rotation. To not use it would be as idiotic as to play as a dancer and solely focus on buffing your dance partner without doing any damage yourself.
Lastly, remember that every content that isn't a savage raid requires less healing than that. Should we really just sit on our thumbs for 15 minutes every dungeon?
I sure wouldn't want to pay a monthly subscription to do litterally nothing. -
08-02-2019, 10:25 PMJaybiz650
Yeah...just no. Even with reworking healing and tanks sometimes getting hit like a truck, there is still time for DPS. I'll always be weaving DPS into my heals because that is how I have always done it and will continue to do it...if you choose not to that is your choice but you are doing yourself and your team a disservice.
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08-02-2019, 10:50 PMValkyrieL
There is so much downtime in healing, should feel bad for doing nothing. Only time I would say you don't need to dps is if we had an instance where we were in a freaking volcano that adds a BLEEDING dot to the entire party that tick 20% of your hp every tick from the start.
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08-03-2019, 08:25 AMLukaRoselia100% this. I returned to WoW for BfA (Horrible idea) and I was actually told off for doing DPS and was like what, you just expect me to stand still and do nothing? That's boring!Quote:
Originally Posted by TankHunter678
If they ever wanted to truly make healers only heal then they would have to make mobs do a lot more damage and probably a lot of unavoidable AoE. Ain't never gunna happen. Oh and I have a friend who mains Scholar and literally doesn't DPS and trust me, you can REALLY tell. Both trash and bosses take so much longer to die when I play with her... -
08-03-2019, 08:54 AMMikhaillNIN needs a buff tbh. It's the lowest of the DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesarthim
I have barely seen any this expac.
P much the new MCH. -
08-03-2019, 09:07 AMMesarthimOh I won't deny that but the ninja was playing very badly. A competent (insert anything) would out dps that particular ninja.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhaill
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08-03-2019, 11:00 AMAniond
Interesting. Vote kick a healer and soon you will have to heal it without one. If I choose to play a certain way thats my option. Voke kick all you like and when Im in a new group and your still waiting.....
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08-03-2019, 11:10 AMjarlmcqueen
I'd rather dps than big pull heal.
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08-03-2019, 01:21 PMSakiKojiroWhat content and class was this, exactly? Because Healers in that game are designed to have a bunch of big raid saving and party member saving buttons while still putting out solid heals if good enough. Also most instances like that are designed around the idea of having more than one *type* of healer. I know that FFXIV doesn't really have this concept, but WoW has healers that mitigate as a primary job, healers who's Raid healing potential is their primary job. Even healers who are in melee range and keep the other melees alive. You got HoT healers, Burst healers! Even healers that heal by doing damage!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wawachume
WoW has always been the better game in terms of raw class design and variance. The way I discribe it is FFXIV is a super clean playroom where you have a nanny watching you to make sure you're doing only things they consider safe and clean. You're still allowed to have fun, but only with these safe toys that are provided to you. Mind you, they're good toys! They're fun toys to play with! But that's all you get. You don't make your own fun. it's provided for you.
WoW is more like a playground with a sand pit where you and your pals just make your own fun, and run around throwing mud at eachother, and you come up with cool games and make it work. Until Timmy hits his head and starts crying and the raid mom gets pissed off and starts saying you aren't allowed to play with her son anymore if you're going to be this rough, but if you try to explain it was TIMMY OWN STUPID FAULT SHE'LL KICK YOU FROM THE G-, I'm going off track, here. You get my point. -
08-03-2019, 03:41 PMDogempire
No. You're only saying that because you want to stand around and wait for people to take damage.
Nobody wants to do that except for really bad healers who are too scared to dps during downtime in fear of the tank suddenly using superbolide and then canceling it. -
08-03-2019, 03:46 PMAlistaireQuote:
Originally Posted by Demetri_Delethorn
You're absolutely right! And why stop there!?! If you want ...cohesion? (I think you used the wrong word therethat is definitely not the right word) of the three roles then why are tanks allowed to dps?!? Their job is threat management! They shouldn't do damage! If you wanted to damage mobs you should be on a dps! -
08-03-2019, 04:27 PMDogempireWhy are ninjas allowed to dps? People only bring them for their trick attack, so they should just stick to standing around the boss and only using trick attack every 60s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alistaire
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08-03-2019, 05:24 PMAlistaireQuote:
Originally Posted by Dogempire
Too soon... -
08-03-2019, 05:34 PMColaSamaAre you assuming that EVERY healer is like that ??!! You FOOL !Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogempire
Some healers don't want to dps because they just LOVE their healing spells duh. It reminds me this "great" SCH I had the other day : he was ONLY spamming Physick. That's it. Even when I had 98% of my hp as the tank. What a dedicated healer huh ? See ? He was not lazy at all ! -
08-03-2019, 06:14 PMWawachumeMostly holy priest in normal/heroic dungeons. Which was probably part of the problem---the mechanics did so little damage that everyone mostly ignored them, which made the fights less "strategic problem-solving" and more "constant drip of incoming damage". It might well have been different at other difficulty levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by SakiKojiro
Honestly, though, I might have a better opinion of WoW if it wasn't for my own issues. There's always been a disparity between how well my brain works and how fast it works. Like, in school I was smarter than the other kids and knew a bunch of stuff they didn't, but when it came time to learn anything I didn't already know, it seemed like they'd get it right away and I'd still be struggling to understand it. I just do not process information quickly at all. I have slow reaction times, and to this day I cannot even understand spoken language without repeating it in my head first.
So a large part of my issues with WoW may have stemmed from the 1.5-second GCD. The fights I was doing were so easy that I was bored out of my skull, but simultaneously provided faster sensory input than I could cope with. From my perspective, FFXIV is like "if boss does A, do B; if boss does C, do D," but WoW was like, "PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW!...Did we win?" I would win almost every fight, but would have no idea how I'd done it because it was all just a blur.
Maybe, in theory, Mythic+ or something would have given me an opportunity to play more strategically. But the truth was that even the Normal/Heroic dungeons were too fast-paced for me to do properly---it was just that they were so easy that it didn't matter if I did everything wrong.
So I started playing FFXIV instead. The content I'm doing requires more thought, but is slower. And more importantly, the glamours are better.
But I still wonder if that cheating b-st-rd Medivh would have been so cocky if I'd been allowed to challenge him to actual chess. -
08-03-2019, 06:43 PMDogempireDamn, if only he decided to bind his physick to his mouse wheel and simply scroll the entire dungeon while targeting youQuote:
Originally Posted by ColaSama
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08-03-2019, 06:57 PMMisutoraru
i want pure healing, i mean at least 80% healing instead of 80% dps, we are healer not some DPS with heal spell
everyone is talking about using all our kit, the truth is we seldom use our GCD heal anymore -
08-03-2019, 07:18 PMDBriggs304
Every healer is different. On my healer, I am there to keep you alive. Period.
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08-03-2019, 07:28 PMVoilyn
I have recently tried savage content for progress in party finder. I tried ALL DAY yesterday to find a practice group that was close to the kill. IN EVERY SINGLE GROUP I found the other healer was obsessed with DPS-ing. Diffrent healer every time. I BARELY EVER saw any healing casts, only Broil, Malefic or Gleam. It felt like i was the only one focusing on keeping 8 people alive for progress. When I mentioned it in the chat most of them claimed they had everything on CD. SO USE SOME SKILLS THATS NOT ON CD!!!!!!!!!!!!! Like............... IDK................. an actual healing skill as well?????
On dead times, where people dont need heals IDM doing DPS but come on! Ifyoure on a healing job then do your freaking job. I was so angry at the end of the day -
08-03-2019, 08:13 PMLodiIf people were dying, the other healer didn't do their job correctly. If people weren't, they were doing enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Voilyn
Also, from my experience with E1s:
56 healing gcds including 30 with no cast time, and 48 healing ogcds.
That means if you were with me, you would have seen 26 casts.
That was more than enough, I had 34% overheal.
On the other hand, 76 Glare casts.
That was barely enough.
If you look at better groups, you'll notice that gcd heals are barely used... because they're barely necessary. If you handle your ogcds well and your group avoids damage, you will rarely need to use healing gcds. -
08-03-2019, 11:20 PMSebazyDo you honestly believe what you are saying here? No sarcasm btw, serious question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Voilyn
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08-03-2019, 11:35 PMtesni_gI remember feeling like this when I first started raiding. WHMs would ask someone to flash the parse and I would be infuriated that they cared more about their dps than actually healing. I healed so much! I was healing my butt off and they weren't doing anything!Quote:
Originally Posted by Voilyn
What I didn't understand then was the power of my cooldowns. A well-timed Earthly Star is the equivalent of 2.5 Helios, which effectively means to heal that kind of damage, I would need to cast 3 direct heals. It makes no sense for an AST to not reach for Star first, if that's at all a possibility. For SCH, so much of their healing is inside CDs. Their spammables are the least efficient (if a shield is not needed or already present, 2 of 3 are useless), and by the time you see a SCH spamming direct heals, the raid's in a lot of danger.
I've also learned fights and there are a lot of times where people don't have to be healed up right away, which means Eos can stay busy and hots get their full value. So often we top people off and let ticks of a hot go to waste. Only two hots in the game have cast times--there's nine more we never "see" being cast. When I started raiding, I didn't know what these icons looked like or realized just how much healing the ground circle could do. I didn't trust my own power and I didn't trust my cohealer.
My healing threshold has changed. I was once that healer in Sastasha casting cure when the tank took an auto. Now I look like one of those broil spammers who cares more about their dps than casting heals. I do care about healing, just as much as I ever did. My best (and burst) healing is invisible. It looks like broil spam. I've learned to trust my cohealer, too, and their power. -
08-04-2019, 12:27 AMfantasticm
What's worse:
A) A pug healer that sits around spamming Cure/Physick/Benefic when at 100% health and seems to have lost all methods of human communication when you attempt to remind them of skills such as 'regen' or 'excogitation' or perhaps 'aspected benefic' and other esoteric abilities that may or may not be lurking on their hotbars.
B) A healer that keeps everyone at 100% and refuses to do aught else for long periods of time, then proceeds to gloat about their anti-dps position both in game and out of it, promoting their poor play as if it were something to be proud of. -
08-04-2019, 03:23 AMUrthdiggerYou didn't see them casting because oGCD abilities are instant cast. Everything being on cooldown isn't a "problem" per se, it's a goal. You use your oGCD heals first, then your GCD heals. Not only does it allow for more DPS, but keeping your skills on cooldown allows you to use them more often during the fight (as more of that time is spent refreshing the cooldown that sitting ready), and saves on MP. Also a lot of these heals are QUITE powerful, so healers may be allowing players to drop lower before using their skills so as not to waste potency. I honestly think if you were finding yourself "healing all the time" it was because you were throwing out heals early and overhealing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Voilyn
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08-04-2019, 08:41 PMAlistaireQuote:
Originally Posted by fantasticm
Yes. /10char -
08-04-2019, 08:58 PMSathona
yikes
/10char -
08-04-2019, 09:04 PMSylvain
I was main AST in SB and rerolled BLM.
A friend of mine kept complaining how demanding to heal Titania and innocence were. Like '' I'm always ouf of EF and mp''.
Admittedly I was surprised as it didn't seem to require any heal at all beside the 3 tree phase... So I did level my SCH to see through his eyes...
God it is a snooze fest, a chance Eden Savage looks more engaging (for healer)
So... No you can definitely have nothing to heal. I healed innocence and Titania without a single gcd heals multiple times (not counting transition).
If I were to not dps I might as well watch Netflix while doing these Ex. Trials. -
08-04-2019, 10:23 PMEaMett
Looks like bait but just going to point out you won’t clear any savage this week without healer dps.
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08-04-2019, 11:01 PMVitreus
If the devs truly don't want us to dps as much they need us to give something else to do when we don't need to heal. Our role will always have downtime, it's inherent to the design. I have no problem with our jobs becoming more focused on support, for example astrologians pulling cards more often than every thirty seconds. But as it is there is nothing to do except dps.
Part of the reason the dps change feels so horrible is that the devs wanted us to play differently, dps less, without actually designing the jobs that way. How often we enter downtime is determined by how strong our heals are compared to the current content we are doing. We see this every patch, as we get better gear and grow stronger our downtime increases. Simplifying our dps didn't actually change how often we dps. It wasn't all the healers choosing to dps, that's how our role was defined. You could reduce us all to a single, boring, spammable spell and we would still do damage. -
08-05-2019, 12:08 AMUbbernaut
I believe the idea of 'The Healer must DPS' comes from the fact that noone in the party wants to see the healer just standing around for 5-12 seconds.
But the issue is because its so easy to top-off tanks and people with off-gcd heals + a single cast, there's usually nothing TO heal. That or the heals are just so bloody strong that a single cast restores most if not all of the tanks health. So if there's nothing to heal... you either stand or DPS.
And people hate to see others just standing for extended periods of time. -
08-05-2019, 12:16 AMTaikaNot only that but also because the hardest content in the game simply requires healers to DPS in order for the group to be able to beat the enrage timer - even when your tanks and DPS are pushing 100% optimal DPS. It's a combination of other group members wishing to see their healers playing as actively than every other player in the group and the fact that healer DPS is required to beat content. Even though the majority of the content in the game can be cleared with zero DPS healers, that's not an excuse for them to slack when they're able to contribute more. Healers should put in just as much effort than all the other group members, and if they're only healing, that won't happen unless their group is way undergeared or eating a huge amount of avoidable damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubbernaut
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08-05-2019, 03:22 AMSylveSo tell your DPS to stop slacking, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodi
Yoshi-P has already stated that they tune raids with 0 healer DPS. Meaning if it was your healer DPS that got you through the fight, Your DPS need to get better. Tanks too.
Theres always times we can fling Damage around. The problem with this community is that they took that extra DPS a Healer was doing out of boredom and decided it was now expected for Healers to DPS above all else.
The Devs misstep in Alexander certainly didn't help that mindset, but they've been staunchly against balancing encounters that way since.
BTW, fun fact. Healer dps is as simple as it is because we interrupt it all the damn time in order to heal the Party. Maintaining the DoT aside, we basically either do full DPS or no DPS. No weird middle ground as we awkwardly put up multiple DoTs before getting back to the nukes like it used to be.
Its better this way, as it encourages those who typically wouldn't use their DPS as much to slide them in. As they slide them in, they get more comfortable with it and start doing it more.
Of course, you'll always have your outliers that simply refuse to cast a damage spell ever, But since the encounter design had those kinds of Healers in mind anyway, its no skin off my back.
The end result is that all my Eden runs are solo heal funtimes because the co-healer is too busy being Green DPS to do their damn job. -
08-05-2019, 03:46 AMEaMettAt ilvl for that content. Not min ilvl. No way are you clearing titan this week without healer dps, even if everyone in your party is 100 percentile you would still be short multiple k dps. That's considering ALL your dps do 14K AND both your tanks do 8K.. You would still be short something like 3k dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylve
How long do you think you need to wait for everyone to be geared enough in order for your average dps to pull 14k and average tank to pull 8k? Answer is a while (I'd be surprised if that even were a thing at all this tier). You'll never clear without healer dps because you're either 1) in a party of people who can't pull those numbers and you don't clear 2) in a party of players who pull those numbers and they kick you because they're tired of you sitting there doing nothing for 70+% of the fight.
So even if SE put a party together to test 0 healer DPS, geared them appropriately (not min ilvl) and they managed to clear, that has absolutely no bearing on real life since anyone good enough to make that happen would require their healers to dps, and anyone not good enough would need their healers to dps.
Bottom line is, healers will need to dps in savage. Claiming otherwise is just deceitful.
PS: I also wouldn't be surprised if the ilvl they test the no healer thing at is the max tier ilvl for said fight. Aka every member has all tomestone/crafted/augmentations available at that fight + potentially weapons from the ex trials that are released during the tier (that we don't currently have access to). Of course this is speculation on my part but looking at the numbers it seems like a fair assessment. That's many weeks (months?) of farming -
08-05-2019, 03:59 AMDeceptusThis is just misinformation. Healer DPS isn't taken into account when DPS requirements are made for bosses. That is per Yoshi-P himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
The reason healer dps is required is groups are undergeared for the content they're trying to down and healer DPS gives them a bit of breathing room / mistake room BECAUSE the dps aren't 100% optimal. No one except the best players in the world are.
1) Average players generally aren't in savage level content.Quote:
Originally Posted by EaMett
2) Good Players are ALREADY pulling 13K+ and tanks pulling ~7300 DPS at the 75th percentile with the lower end coming in at approximately 12K.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...s=68&class=Any
Look, I advocate for healer DPS as much as the next guy, but at least keep your arguments honest. -
08-05-2019, 04:06 AMHalik
I'm all for having healers just healing.
But the Devs need to design around healers needing to heal way more often then they do because you are otherwise standing around. Too many fights are built around "Big boss does the big AoE that almost kills people!" And then the healers top everyone off within a couple GCDs; then what? It should honestly take longer to heal people up, and bosses shouldn't just always hit you for most of you HP when they do, it's silly.
If healing and damage intake were paced out for longer periods, healers would be forced to heal more and spend more time using GCD heals. Until then, healers won't just be healing, no matter how much the devs ask us to. They need to design the game around healers healing if that's what they want. -
08-05-2019, 04:17 AMEaMett1) let me rephrase: Average raiderQuote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
2) 75 percentile on titan week one means nothing. It's normalized percentiles over a data set constituted of people who have managed to cleared titan week one. We're talking about people who normally parse purple if not almost all orange. Just take a look at eden prime and suddenly that drops to 10k and 6k for 75%. That's already a more representative figure.
My argument was honest. -
08-05-2019, 04:20 AMDeceptusAnd with those 10K numbers, most of those Eden Prime raiders won't see a titan clear for months if they see it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by EaMett
Decent (average) players were doing 6K dps at lvl 70. If you can't even be doing as well as people were at lvl 70, there is something wrong with your playstyle. -
08-05-2019, 04:35 AMTaikaThe fact is, you can't beat Eden Savage 4 right now without having your healers DPS even when your DPS and tank players are perfectly optimised. Whatever Yoshi P says about its design doesn't change how the game actually works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
Edit: And adding on to this, while this is true right now for the best, perfectly optimised raid groups in the world, for everyone else this will be true for a long time in the future, even after they get higher item level gear, because they're not perfect players in perfect gear in perfectly optimised groups. A great raid group with 75% ranking members will absolutely need that healer DPS in order to beat content for a long while, and your average (50% ranking) raid groups may even need it all the way until they add Echo.
It is extremely misleading to claim that these fights don't require healer DPS and that DDs and tanks will just have to 'get good', if what you're asking from them is, in the best case (which literally isn't even possible now!), playing in perfect gear, perfect setup, and perfect optimisation, to be some of the very best in the whole world, and only so that you could let your healers play at under 50% (being generous) efficiency. Even if that would be possible for a raid group at some point of this patch cycle, would that be a sensible or fair thing to do?
Look at the minimum group DPS requirements for Savage fights. Then look at how high your DDs and tanks would need to rank to be able to reach them without any healer DPS. Then think again if the fights are designed to be completed without healer DPS or not. -
08-05-2019, 04:51 AMEaMettThose 10k players are still at the 75% mark. It just shows that healer dps will be necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
The 6k was for tanks. Also worth noting there's a bit of a difference between past DPS stats and current rDPS so that will also have to be taken into account. I'm not sure about this but it also feels like DPS overall was lower going into this expansion. Maybe it's just me but it feels like it's harder to pull the same numbers when I pick up my 70s. Might be on a per job basis though. The lvl 70-80 dps gap doesn't seem that wide with current gear.
Anyways, my point was that most groups will need healer dps all the way up until very late in the tier and those who don't would very likely expect you to dps anyways.