The DPS is not the Healer

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

I, for one, love it when the tank pulls wall to wall, and multiple waves, even when my gear isn't up to snuff yet. As a healer, I like healing, and large pulls is where I can shine in the healing aspect. If there's small pulls I just have to sit there... ..Doing "Art of War. Art of War. Art of War. Art of War....."

That seems far less fun to me.

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Good for you. You will by happy cause that's what they do most of the time regardless. I prefer to contribute to the dps and not have to struggle to heal with poor gear and an undergeared tank and mostly undergeared dps as most are still in AF gear but hey that's me. You're entitled to your view and so am I.

As people gear up it's fun to do wall to wall. I enjoy that as well.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

Uhh what? The dps do in fact play into a wall to wall pool. CDs are finite and so are MP for healers. If the trash does not die fast enough you will. Do you even bro?

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You misunderstood what I said. I wasn't referring to "wall to wall" pulling. When I said I've never hit this particular wall while tanking, I meant I've never encountered this particular limitation or roablock.

Before getting condescending your remarks, make sure you're not making a fool of yourself first.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

People like you make me pray we wall lock every single 3 trash mob, just to force you do the game as intended and not force people to play outside the intended mechanics.

I pray for that day as a MT, I will laugh in glory as you no longer can force your playstyle on others. You wanna be entitled and childish? Then I think the developers should treat yall like children.

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As a MT of over a decade across multiple MMOs, I can confidently say you do not qualify as a Tank in any regard. No Tank worthy of the title fears pulling massive groups. If anything, Tanks are usually told calm down because we have a lust for pulling everything in sight.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

It's easier and time effective, but is not the intended design.

Look at the first 71 dungeon. Pull wall to wall with 71 gear....not intended. Just because YOU out gear it or get bored and want to speed run doesn't mean your expectations should interfere with someones playstyle when they are playing as intended. As intended, intended by the design not by play base.

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You keep saying "intended design". If multi-group pulls were not factored into the intended design, they wouldn't be possible. Your idea of what is intended is clearly not what is actually intended.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Idk how you guys manage to pull wall to wall in this expansion i found myself struggling to survive pulls like this and i had multiple cases of wipes because of it, it is a lot more difficult to do so today and it feels weird.
Pls give us protect bac.

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The mitigation from Protect was laughable. It amounted to very little in the grand scheme of things. The most important things for successful tanking is cooldown management and keeping your gear up-to-date. The same applies to healing.

i actually like it if the tank pull 2 mobs at once (3 maybe too much), especially if tank didnt pop defensive cooldown. no need to pop dot or help dps at all, because tank hp going down so fast i need to keep spamming heal button to tank.

valid reason too if someone still dare to ask why i didnt help dps at all, all i need to say to that person is to watch how fast tank hp going down and ask if you want tank lived or i put puny dps.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

It's easier and time effective, but is not the intended design.

Look at the first 71 dungeon. Pull wall to wall with 71 gear....not intended. Just because YOU out gear it or get bored and want to speed run doesn't mean your expectations should interfere with someones playstyle when they are playing as intended. As intended, intended by the design not by play base.

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Intent means nothing. Just as if you make a deadly household substance that looks remarkably like candy, for instance, it doesn't matter if killing children wasn't the intended result -- it's still the result caused by how you've designed what you've made -- if you make dungeons that are nearly as safely and easily, and much more quickly, completed by doing it in one particular method, then your design encourages that method. It does not matter that this was a disastrous failure on your part; it is still what you've done, and what will now be worked around and in accordance with.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

It's easier and time effective, but is not the intended design.

Look at the first 71 dungeon. Pull wall to wall with 71 gear....not intended. Just because YOU out gear it or get bored and want to speed run doesn't mean your expectations should interfere with someones playstyle when they are playing as intended. As intended, intended by the design not by play base.

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I did pull wall to wall in Holminster Switch in 71 gear. It went absolutely fine because I know how to rotate my cooldowns. What you think of as intent is nonsensical at best. Job effectiveness varies by players having a pulse. Just as well, I'm not 'interfering' with anyone's playstyle by making them use their considerably smaller AOE rotations, or heaven forbid I ask the healer to put in as much effort as I do, if needed.

This has all gotten really hostile really quickly.


I generally ask what kind of pulls people want in dungeons. literally 99.99% of time, the healer or DPS are either completely silent for 2 minutes and get impatient, or say something along the lines of "I dont care." or "It doesn't matter."

.....the other 0.01%? "Pull everything please."


And yet it's rude to just assume. Alright.

I usually tell the tank if they seem apprehensive, "pull as much as you want, and we'll see how it goes :)" It works well because you set the tone that you don't mind wipes too much and it actually encourages the tank to pull more. I haven't had a wipe to tanks pulling wall to wall this expansion yet, so it seems to be working well. When I get a feel for each tanks squishiness I switch to dpsing more, and using ogcd healing skills more.

If you have to have a discussion, that is a surefire way to spot a problematic group, to say the least. That said, completely disagree with the OP that it's a tank and healer decision. You're half the group; not the majority. You aren't a dictator.

That said, unless either the tank or healer is really, really bad, the correct answer is ALWAYS large pulls.

Ran armourt last night tank did big pulls. I spammed Benefic two with Cd's and at times the damage was so high the tanks HP barely moved. More then once I had to hit essentially dignity cause benefic two+cd's was not getting his hp up. No member of a dungeon group should be struggling to do their job. Tank,healer or dps does not matter if you want to do big pulls fine use party finder. Using Duty finder means your going to get stuck with RANDOM people who may or may not be capable or wanting of big pulls.

Its everyones responsibility to speak up in a dungeon about what pulls the group should do to get everyone on the same page to spare people frustration and failure.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

As a Warrior main, you wot m8? Our sustain was nerfed in Stormblood, true, but in ShB they brought it back up with Nascent Flash. If you refer to Inner Beast actually losing it's healing, why were you using IB in the first place? Steel Cyclone sustain being gone is pretty bad but Chaotic Cyclone + Inner Release + Nascent Flash means not only you get to live but a buddy of your choosing gets to live as well. We don't even need to toggle stance for Equilibrium anymore. I'm sorry but I just don't see how Warrior lost anything. The best tank only got better.

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Nascent flash has only 6 seconds duration. :x

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

It's easier and time effective, but is not the intended design.

Look at the first 71 dungeon. Pull wall to wall with 71 gear....not intended. Just because YOU out gear it or get bored and want to speed run doesn't mean your expectations should interfere with someones playstyle when they are playing as intended. As intended, intended by the design not by play base.

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Actually, devs designs dungeons in the way that it allows pulling 2-3 groups of mobs in newest dungeons, which is a pure definition of wall-to-wall, since it is pulling as much as a dungeon design allows.
It is intended to be pulled that way because devs are taking into account different ilvls of the players and are predicting the curve of power for players. They wont do dungeons where you could only pull 1 group in entire dungeon because it would be a nightmare for those who are going to run it with higher ilvl.
It is supposed to be harder for current ilvls and after half year into expansion being easier when ilvls go up so you will see people pulling everything in sight.

As others said, everyone gets a say in how the dungeon should be run. This idea that Healers and Tanks are doing DPS a favor by playing a Healer or Tank is way outdated way of thinking. Each person contributes their quarter of effort to the group and is equal to every other member of the group.

And as I've said in other threads in the past, majority rules. If the group (the other three) wants to do large pulls and one person, tank, healer, or DPS doesn't want to, they should consider bowing out for someone who will or accept the fact there's going to be large pulls. If one person wants to do big pulls and the other three do not, they can choose to bow out too or simply accept the smaller pulls. Gear is roughly irrelevant currently. All playstyles are support by minimum ilvl scaling and requirements.

It comes down to ability and preference at this point, and majority vote.

It basically comes down to party decision, if any of the following is not true, then pulling a small group is wiser.

Q: "Can we do large pull?"
Tank: "Am I gear enough that my HP won't keep dropping like crazy?"
DPS: "Am I doing enough DPS that the mobs will die fast?"
Healer: "Can I keep up with the tank HP before my mana dies?"

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Originally Posted by ksuyen

It basically comes down to party decision, if any of the following is not true, then pulling a small group is wiser.

Q: "Can we do large pull?"
Tank: "Am I gear enough that my HP won't keep dropping like crazy?"
DPS: "Am I doing enough DPS that the mobs will die fast?"
Healer: "Can I keep up with the tank HP before my mana dies?"

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It's more like:

Tank: Am I geared enough?
Healer: Can I keep up with the tank?
Tank and Healer: Are the DPS terrible?


There are no DPS players that will say "Hey wait a minute, don't pull big, I'm bad!" Spamming AoE on a small pack or a big pack is the exact same gameplay, nothing changes for them. It is a decision for the healer and tank to make, not the DPS.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

It's more like:

Tank: Am I geared enough?
Healer: Can I keep up with the tank?
Tank and Healer: Are the DPS terrible?


There are no DPS players that will say "Hey wait a minute, don't pull big, I'm bad!" Spamming AoE on a small pack or a big pack is the exact same gameplay, nothing changes for them. It is a decision for the healer and tank to make, not the DPS.

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https://media.giphy.com/media/YzvPqrOVoS9tC/giphy.gif

You got it so right.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

It's more like:

Tank: Am I geared enough?
Healer: Can I keep up with the tank?
Tank and Healer: Are the DPS terrible?


There are no DPS players that will say "Hey wait a minute, don't pull big, I'm bad!" Spamming AoE on a small pack or a big pack is the exact same gameplay, nothing changes for them. It is a decision for the healer and tank to make, not the DPS.

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Entitled tank and healer mentality, right here. It's a decision for the group, not the tank and / or healer. Tanks and healers are not special snowflakes, and they do not get more privileges than DPS players.

I see people are getting offended by something that has zero effect on their gameplay again. And by that "something" I mean a DPS answering instead of a healer.

I have 0 problem to keep tank alive with big pulls to wall in this expansion and to be honest I never had any problem in any dungeon, even new dungs are too easy. (there is even time to spam holy all day)
They should make hard mode for dungs with harder mobs and better rewards that would be fun

im WHM main since HW

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Entitled tank and healer mentality, right here. It's a decision for the group, not the tank and / or healer. Tanks and healers are not special snowflakes, and they do not get more privileges than DPS players.

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I don't see how it's entitled at all. You'll be spamming AOE on a small pack of three or four, and things will only go faster on a larger pull. DPS literally have no reason to be considered in this decision.

I had a dps chime in to the tank to pull bigger. This was from a BLM, i responded I think that is something that needs healer approval but with a smile as I was just having fun.

The questions for big pulls firstly resides with the healer/tank combo.

Is the tank reasonably geared and decent at cooldown usage?
Is the healer decent and are their cooldowns available?
Are the dps any good?

If the tank and or healer can't handle large pulls the dps doesn't matter, if the dps are crap the pull can still go badly it will just be after the cooldowns are all used, mana is gone etc..

I have been running my healer with a friend (tank) We usually decided to pull gently (2 groups) and see how dps is doing, if they are good then we increase things.

I'm new to SCH (previous WHM) but I did use to struggle with the first pull of a dungeon sometimes if it was a huge pull with the stupid no Atherflow out of combat..

The only thing I truly hate is the tank that is always running after the fight so I'm always behind, where they are at 1/3 health by the time I get to them and then it can be dicey trying to get them stable. (also typically means much less dps from me).

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Entitled tank and healer mentality, right here. It's a decision for the group, not the tank and / or healer. Tanks and healers are not special snowflakes, and they do not get more privileges than DPS players.

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In what way is it entitled? The DPS have minimal, if any, relevance to whether or not to do big pulls. I've done big pulls where the DPS died and it was just me and the Healer and we killed the pull before the DPS got back from their corpse run. Why would I give any weight to that role's input when they have such trivial impact on the outcome? That's not entitled, that's just reality.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

In what way is it entitled? The DPS have minimal, if any, relevance to whether or not to do big pulls. I've done big pulls where the DPS died and it was just me and the Healer and we killed the pull before the DPS got back from their corpse run. Why would I give any weight to that role's input when they have such trivial impact on the outcome? That's not entitled, that's just reality.

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Because the DPS get a say in who can remain in the dungeon if they are of like mind. There's no reason to even push it that far. We all like quick runs where everyone is happy right? I know when I run with a friend of mine, even though we're half the group, we still see where the other members stand.

The reason for this is we want a smooth run. Smooth runs are fast. And if everyone is good with big pulls, we pull them. If not, we size it down. I never understood why everyone needs to take extremist positions. Everyone devolves into two camps. Pull big or go home, or always take it nice and slow. How about this novel idea? Work as a team.

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Originally Posted by Videra

I don't see how it's entitled at all. You'll be spamming AOE on a small pack of three or four, and things will only go faster on a larger pull. DPS literally have no reason to be considered in this decision.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

In what way is it entitled? The DPS have minimal, if any, relevance to whether or not to do big pulls. I've done big pulls where the DPS died and it was just me and the Healer and we killed the pull before the DPS got back from their corpse run. Why would I give any weight to that role's input when they have such trivial impact on the outcome? That's not entitled, that's just reality.

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Let's break this down simply. The tank and healer are half the group. The DPS are the other half. Two individuals do not have the privilege to tell two other players how the group is going to go. Sorry, not how it works. 3/4 can tell the group how it's going to go, and if you're 1/4, and that's not palatable, then you leave.

But you as a healer or tank, thinking you're some special snowflake who can dictate how the dungeon is paced, regardless of what the rest of the group thinks? That's the literal definition of entitled.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Because the DPS get a say in who can remain in the dungeon if they are of like mind.

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Please show me a DPS that is going to initiate a kick because the tank is doing big pulls. There isn't one. But I do like how you completely ignored the part where I talk about me and a healer handling the pull without DPS even being there to contribute.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

There's no reason to even push it that far.

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Then why are you bringing it up? More to the point, it would never even get that far anyway, because DPS wouldn't complain about bigger pulls.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

The reason for this is we want a smooth run. Smooth runs are fast. And if everyone is good with big pulls, we pull them. If not, we size it down. I never understood why everyone needs to take extremist positions. Everyone devolves into two camps. Pull big or go home, or always take it nice and slow. How about this novel idea? Work as a team.

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I adjust pulls based on two factors. 1 - Can the Healer handle keeping me alive? 2 - How well do I know the trash, and does the trash have any special mechanics that need to be handled? Neither of those require input from DPS. The DPS could be dead and it just be me the Healer and the pull would simply die slower.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Let's break this down simply. The tank and healer are half the group. The DPS are the other half. Two individuals do not have the privilege to tell two other players how the group is going to go. Sorry, not how it works. 3/4 can tell the group how it's going to go, and if you're 1/4, and that's not palatable, then you leave.

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As I pointed out above, show me even a single DPS that will initiate a kick because of bigger pulls. They don't exist. And you also ignored the fact that I have done big pulls where the DPS died and contributed nothing to pull and it still died. Why should a role that has so little impact have any input? That's like asking the janitor his opinion on a multi-million dollar company merger.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

But you as a healer or tank, thinking you're some special snowflake who can dictate how the dungeon is paced, regardless of what the rest of the group thinks? That's the literal definition of entitled.

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You can stop with the projection. DPS is one of the least important roles in regards to trash pulls. Your role on bosses is important. You want to feel special in matters where your role doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Let's break this down simply. The tank and healer are half the group. The DPS are the other half. Two individuals do not have the privilege to tell two other players how the group is going to go. Sorry, not how it works. 3/4 can tell the group how it's going to go, and if you're 1/4, and that's not palatable, then you leave.

But you as a healer or tank, thinking you're some special snowflake who can dictate how the dungeon is paced, regardless of what the rest of the group thinks? That's the literal definition of entitled.

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Technically they could.
Kick takes only 2 to kick someone. xD

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In what way is it entitled? The DPS have minimal, if any, relevance to whether or not to do big pulls. I've done big pulls where the DPS died and it was just me and the Healer and we killed the pull before the DPS got back from their corpse run. Why would I give any weight to that role's input when they have such trivial impact on the outcome? That's not entitled, that's just reality.

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In my experience tanking, low/dead DPS on a big pull (or more typically, DPS that steadfastly refuse to use AoEs even when up against a dozen targets or so) usually means I run out of cooldowns + the healer eventually runs dry on MP trying to keep my sorry butt alive. I've been in the healer position on this before too, when I'd have to spam Cure 2 on the tank or else they would die. That's not a thing I can keep up doing for very long.

I can't help but feel like you're referring to certain 50/60/70 dungeons that can be vastly outgeared and where a tank+healer can actually keep themselves afloat on a big pull, but most dungeons are not like those.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

In my experience tanking, low/dead DPS on a big pull (or more typically, DPS that steadfastly refuse to use AoEs even when up against a dozen targets or so) usually means I run out of cooldowns + the healer eventually runs dry on MP trying to keep my sorry butt alive. I've been in the healer position on this before too, when I'd have to spam Cure 2 on the tank or else they would die. That's not a thing I can keep up doing for very long.

I can't help but feel like you're referring to certain 50/60/70 dungeons that can be vastly outgeared and where a tank+healer can actually keep themselves afloat on a big pull, but most dungeons are not like those.

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It can't be done frequently in current content, it does take amazing Tank/Healer player synergy and beautiful use of cooldowns. Not gonna lie, though, this is not a common occurrence. When it does happen, it feels amazing.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

Please show me a DPS that is going to initiate a kick because the tank is doing big pulls.

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If you were on my dataserver I'd show you. But currently due to forum TOS I cannot post names. We'll just say I know a few. As others said, it only takes 2 to kick. So the DPS are very much relevant to the discussion as they comprise of at least two people. You say you can do a dungeon without them, but I doubt that is true if you're not in the dungeon anymore to begin with.

As I said, there's no reason to even push it that far.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

As I pointed out above, show me even a single DPS that will initiate a kick because of bigger pulls. They don't exist. And you also ignored the fact that I have done big pulls where the DPS died and contributed nothing to pull and it still died. Why should a role that has so little impact have any input? That's like asking the janitor his opinion on a multi-million dollar company merger.

You can stop with the projection. DPS is one of the least important roles in regards to trash pulls. Your role on bosses is important. You want to feel special in matters where your role doesn't.

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Everything you wrote here just screams entitlement. Do I, as a DPS player, want to feel special in matters where my role doesn't? No. I'd say the same thing if I was tanking or healing. How the group is going to proceed, the pacing, is a role agnostic consideration. The fact that you happened to queue up as a healer or tank does not permit you to tell 3/4 of the group what to do.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Let's break this down simply. The tank and healer are half the group. The DPS are the other half. Two individuals do not have the privilege to tell two other players how the group is going to go. Sorry, not how it works. 3/4 can tell the group how it's going to go, and if you're 1/4, and that's not palatable, then you leave.

But you as a healer or tank, thinking you're some special snowflake who can dictate how the dungeon is paced, regardless of what the rest of the group thinks? That's the literal definition of entitled.

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I mean that is, quite literally, how it works. The dungeon would be going nowhere if I didn't set the pace. That's a part of the role, not some form of 'entitlement' you absolute goon. If you as a DPS take issue with me doing big pulls, deal with it. I'm going to mention here that I regularly play all three roles, and I see no reason a DPS would ask someone -not- to do large pulls. That mindset simply does not exist.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Let's break this down simply. The tank and healer are half the group. The DPS are the other half. Two individuals do not have the privilege to tell two other players how the group is going to go. Sorry, not how it works. 3/4 can tell the group how it's going to go, and if you're 1/4, and that's not palatable, then you leave.

But you as a healer or tank, thinking you're some special snowflake who can dictate how the dungeon is paced, regardless of what the rest of the group thinks? That's the literal definition of entitled.

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I just... what? The tank's job is to set the pace of the dungeon. It's not entitlement, it's the role's job.

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Originally Posted by Videra

I mean that is, quite literally, how it works. The dungeon would be going nowhere if I didn't set the pace. That's a part of the role, not some form of 'entitlement' you absolute goon. If you as a DPS take issue with me doing big pulls, deal with it. I'm going to mention here that I regularly play all three roles, and I see no reason a DPS would ask someone -not- to do large pulls. That mindset simply does not exist.

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Ah, the staple of a great argument: when you resort to name calling.

Even better when you're dead wrong.

The idea that tanks set the pace is a big myth in MMORPGs. Pacing is a group decision, full stop. Why? It affects the entire group; not just the tank or healers. You, whether as a tank or the healer, do not get to make a group-wide decision.

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Originally Posted by Aver

I just... what? The tank's job is to set the pace of the dungeon. It's not entitlement, it's the role's job.

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Just like with the other poster, you're dead wrong. The tank's job is to tank the mobs. Pacing is a group decision.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Ah, the staple of a great argument: when you resort to name calling.

Even better when you're dead wrong.

The idea that tanks set the pace is a big myth in MMORPGs. Pacing is a group decision, full stop. Why? It affects the entire group; not just the tank or healers. You, whether as a tank or the healer, do not get to make a group-wide decision.



Just like with the other poster, you're dead wrong. The tank's job is to tank the mobs. Pacing is a group decision.

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I mean, if you're going to tell me that I'm wrong? I can do very much the same. Tanks and healers have always set the pace, while DPS followed. I don't know where you got this entitled opinion that you think what DPS want outside of doing their job matters, but it's hilarious. You are -actively- denying the reality before your very eyes.

Please, try again.

While leveling tank Jobs I often see DPS running up behind me and start jumping to get me to keep going.

That makes me pull slower. Speak up please.

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Originally Posted by Videra

I mean, if you're going to tell me that I'm wrong? I can do very much the same. Tanks and healers have always set the pace, while DPS followed. I don't know where you got this entitled opinion that you think what DPS want outside of doing their job matters, but it's hilarious. You are -actively- denying the reality before your very eyes.

Please, try again.

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Telling you that you're wrong is not an insult. Calling me a goon is. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

You have a very warped view of reality if you truly believe that every single DPS just follows. And that the tank and healer alone set the pace. It's honestly quite narcissistic to think that. If the group wants to go at a faster pace, tanks, in the large majority of situations, go at that faster pace. I have also seen DPS pull extra sets of mobs, once, then the tank reacts and does larger pull thereafter. Hmm, that's a DPS setting the pace.

So, no, you don't get the unquestioned power about pace. The group does. Not you.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Telling you that you're wrong is not an insult. Calling me a goon is. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

You have a very warped view of reality if you truly believe that every single DPS just follows. And that the tank and healer alone set the pace. It's honestly quite narcissistic to think that. If the group wants to go at a faster pace, tanks, in the large majority of situations, go at that faster pace. I have also seen DPS pull extra sets of mobs, once, then the tank reacts and does larger pull thereafter. Hmm, that's a DPS setting the pace.

So, no, you don't get the unquestioned power about pace. The group does. Not you.

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If you pull it, you tank it. This has been a reality for many, many years. DPS does not have the right to pull. Now, the healer? Yes. If the healer demands a higher pace, then forward march. (Not that this is an issue for me, as I've already addressed this.) Again, you are simply denying reality about how the roles work. DPS who pull get to tank what they spank, and you rarely find a tank or healer that doesn't agree with this same sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Ah, the staple of a great argument: when you resort to name calling.

Even better when you're dead wrong.

The idea that tanks set the pace is a big myth in MMORPGs. Pacing is a group decision, full stop. Why? It affects the entire group; not just the tank or healers. You, whether as a tank or the healer, do not get to make a group-wide decision.

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Thats why it is so responsible role, because as a tank you have to do and know everything.
Thats why there are not too many players playing tanks in mmorpg even in games like WoW where it is easy to play even easier than here.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

If you were on my dataserver I'd show you. But currently due to forum TOS I cannot post names. We'll just say I know a few. As others said, it only takes 2 to kick. So the DPS are very much relevant to the discussion as they comprise of at least two people. You say you can do a dungeon without them, but I doubt that is true if you're not in the dungeon anymore to begin with.

As I said, there's no reason to even push it that far.

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I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. I do live by the motto that "if you think you've seen the dumbest thing ever, someone will scream 'challenge accepted!'"... And yet I'm still surprised that a DPS would be mad when a Tank does big pulls. /facepalm

I fully agree there's no reason to push it that far. And, in the interest of fairness, I feel I should point out that I do listen to the input of DPS on matters like this. It's just that DPS input on pull size really isn't important since their contribution to the success of the pull is, by comparison, trivial to the Tank and Healer. I usually argue/debate from the position of "here's the reality of it". I rarely walk that line myself.

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While leveling tank Jobs I often see DPS running up behind me and start jumping to get me to keep going.

That makes me pull slower. Speak up please.

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That IS their way of speaking up. And frankly, it's a nice way of doing it too.

If they were trying to be Richards about it, they would be running ahead and pulling for you.

By default as a Tank I tend to do small to medium pulls (One or two groups of Mobs) rather than Wall to Wall/Large Pulls. This is because of a few reasons.

1: I go at my own pace when I want and how I want to. If you want me to "Pull Big" then ask, politely mind you. If you type something rude expect a snarky comeback because I don't play that way. You can ask nicely or not at all.

2: I have had plenty of times where pulling big results in a wipe and forces us all to have to go back to the start then walk back even with Shortcuts. If we had pulled small we would have wasted far less time.

3: Some people play the game to enjoy the designs in the dungeons and the like. There are also First Time Players who either are just starting or wish to take it slow rather than bum-rush through Content.