The Problem with Paladin

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Originally Posted by Andrien

Didn't make myself clear I see. I was agreeing with you and on top of that adding some possible scenarios

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Ah ic. Yeah sorry I wasn't sure what you were saying.

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Originally Posted by Shiggysonson

What?
No, seriously....what?!
I'm not saying make it impossible for paladins to manage MP. I'm just saying don't make it so they can manage MP alone. So are you saying if paladins were able to manage their MP alone, paladins would be better in all those situations? Wouldn't that mean a paladin with a bard is better in all those situations?

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I get what you're saying here, I think it should be more like:
PLD can survive and recover low/moderate MP to be able to cure itself every now and then to supplement WHM cures.
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PLD with a BRD can survive and recover moderate/high MP to be able to cure itself and others somewhat frequently to supplement WHM cures and help generate enmity.


Not having a BRD should not cripple you, having a BRD should enhance your effectiveness.

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Originally Posted by Shiggysonson

I'm not sure if everyone got too used to WoW where it was insanely easy for tanks to build more enmity than DDs or what. There is no problem with DDs being able to build more enmity than tanks as long as they don't do it lol. The tank's job is to build as much enmity as possible and negate as much damage. The better the tank, the more damage the DDs can do. Simple as that.

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I never played WoW but I played FFXI since 2004 to now. What I'm saying is. MP is one of the main tools for pld, and if by chance you lose enmity to a damage dealer, you might want to cure them to keep hate control, and on top of that curing yourself while you're at it.

edit: There should be some way to lessen the burden just a little bit.

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Originally Posted by Phobos

Not having a BRD should not cripple you, having a BRD should enhance your effectiveness.

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I 100% agree with you. A paladin with access to a lot of MP should be a lot better than gladiator, and a bard should make this possible. Something like 1+1=2 for classes, and 1+1=3 for jobs.

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Originally Posted by Shiggysonson

I 100% agree with you. A paladin with access to a lot of MP should be a lot better than gladiator, and a bard should make this possible. Something like 1+1=2 for classes, and 1+1=3 for jobs.

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Yeah, I'm just saying - as it stands now PLD is garbage without BRD (after like 10 mins or so of fighting something). It should be more like PLD is good without a BRD, but when you have one you can do way more, as opposed to when you run out of MP theres no way of getting it back without one (should not force reliance on meds, though perhaps the price-point on them is decent, I'll have to check).


EDIT: Working now, but will make some attempts with PLD under different circumstances (will check out food/meds options and maybe get a BRD if I'm lucky) tonight to see how it goes. I'm hoping jobs can be better than classes but we'll see.

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Originally Posted by Phobos

Wtf is threat? Personally, I try to hold hate/enmity.

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*crickets* Um... okay

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Originally Posted by Phobos

On a serious note, I don't know if you've attempted Ifrit or something similar on PLD (One long, drawn out fight where youre MP pool actually has a chance to get exhausted) but as I mentioned, I did not think this was an issue until I had a fight my MP actually got exhausted.

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I haven't tried Ifrit on PLD yet, but on "something similar" yes I do believe I have. As for GLA, I've had my MP get exhausted before - easy enough to have a THM come by and SP > SR on me just before stops dashing around so as to get hit with a high damaging breath attack to provide the most MP back during SR's duration. So far, for both, running out of MP on either PLD or GLA have been very situation - both of which can be corrected (or made worse) by altering strategies.

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Originally Posted by Phobos

I do understand the whole using a BRD thing, but there are a few issues with that - the first being that a PLD now requires a BRD, and needs them to keep Ballad on them.

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How is this different than having it be required that GLA have Featherfoot and/or Sanguine Rite just to keep his/her MP up? The only difference I see in that is by not having those abilities you have to rely more on another party member to provide the support for you.

Hmm, good thing "long, drawn out fights" require party members to help win. *Solution found.*

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Originally Posted by Phobos

In some situations this may mean either ignoring the rest of the party or giving everyone Ballad, or the BRD needing to run around to get everyone songs. It's not horrible but its a bit clunky.

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BRDs don't need to ignore anyone in the party, especially with regards to putting up songs. Just like a THM can find the right moment to put up SR on the GLA in an Ifrit fight, so too can a BRD find the right opportunity to put up a 3 min (or is it more than 3min?) song on one party member (or a select group of party members), and then go back and put up a song for the 'other' party member(s). And, if "need[ing] to run around to get everyone songs" (which, you know, is what BRDs do) is clunky, then I guess fighting Ifrit is just as clunky because it requires you to, you know, run around and avoid ground mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Phobos

I hate to bring up FFXI, particularly as I don't want too many of it's concepts adopted here, but for PLD there, MP was less of an issue for a few reasons:

2 Jobs could refresh, PLD also had auto-refresh and some gear that gave it available.
Block rate didn't suck horribly, so you would actually sometimes block a decent ammount of Damage.
It's much easier when you have an 18 man group to get a BRD or a RDM or both with your PLD

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I actually like it when ppl bring up FFXI. Most seem to think that there's not "Final Fantasy" in FFXIV, and that it's awakens the anti-christ for mentioning a previous installment of a FF game when, you know, talking about a current/new FF game (because FF games never have anything similar/familiar in them... never). Anyway, I digressed...

You're absolutely right about having multiple ways PLDs could replenish MP in XI (pre-abbyssea, or h/e it's spelled. I say that because I stopped during WotG). But, even with having all that MP available to use you still could hold a lot of threat by relying on other members of your party for threat: THF, or anyone that /THF. That alone I would argue could give PLDs in XI the majority of their threat; however, it just all depended on the pt setup and situation.

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Originally Posted by Phobos

Just to bring more than one game for comparison, I also played DCUO for a bit, where tanks had a few options as well:
Multiple power refreshing jobs - there are as many healing classes as there are refreshers and tanks.
Everyone has an inherent power regeneration that while relatively minimal, is noticeable enough.

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Yeah... Hmmm, games like DCUO, WoW, Rift, etc., where every class had their own way to be self-sufficient, I find really hard to try and compare to FF games only because historically FF games have centered around strategic, tactical battles that involved micro-managing party members to perform key roles in order to win the battle. And I'm not suggesting that the battles in those games didn't involve any sort of strategy, it's just they were completely different (again, imo) then the strategies used to win fights in, say, FFIV and FFT, etc. Anyone, the thick of it is, every MMO will have their own class-structure to it, and to say stuff like, "I played this one game, and so this other game should have it simply by virtue of the other game having it" is purely subjective.


All in all bro, FFXIV allows you to play GLA or PLD whenever you want, and it sounds like you already have your mind set on GLA. Whatever you do, hope you have fun doing it because after all it's a video game, and we all choose to play it based on what it offers us. XD

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Originally Posted by Andrien

There is a lot of damage dealers out there too to consider how quickly they can generate enmity. You can cure them as well to keep enmity but how much of that can you do before you're empty?

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Yeah... but.... again... you don't need to rely on your MP to keep 100% of your threat. I mean, MP for a PLD isn't like 4 legs to a table: That is, PLDs have other "legs" they can boost their threat with (if you understand the analogy).

Also, DD classes have enmity-reduction capabilities. That, and, it's not hard to just ease off the DD. And, of course, if for w/e reason the DDs just can't pump enough damage to kill the mob before say a timer runs out or a mechanic is triggered, etc. etc., then either the PLD needs to rethink his/her play strategy, or perhaps the strategy for the entire party needs to be reevaluated.

For me, MP isn't the "end all, be all" for keeping threat. So far, I feel I've been able to hold threat pretty well in most situations; unless of course some DD like a BLM who ate paint chips as a child decided to unload his/her MP pool right at the beginning of a fight.

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Originally Posted by Phobos

I think my issue is the jobs are supposed to be clearly better for party play while classes are better for solo, and it is apparent that the gains for PLD in either party or solo are not enough to warrant using it at all. Even if you have a BRD (which is now just doing ballad to make up for the PLD's MP recovery loss, and therefore making it difficult/impossible to buff others) GLA can still recover more MP and use it more than PLD can.

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In the event you dont have a well rounded party maybe you should use glad. Jobs are for party play as we all know and to make full use of jobs they will have to work together. You will have to rely on a bard to help you with mp so you can have other ability's that help you tank. I know we all know this already but it seems to becoming a surprise to some people. To say you don't want to rely on a bard for mp is the same as saying you don't want to rely on whm's for cures. Bard is a party buffer and I truly believe there is a reason its the only class that can cast sanguine rite on others(and in ifrit a good timing SR will recover all your mp).

I think OP hit the nail on the head.

I've been talking about this with my LS and they agree that GLA is better because it can sustain itself better. In terms of kiting, GLA gets access to Featherfoot, Second Wind, Decoy, and Sanguine Rite. I would take these abilities any day over Holy Succor, especially since you are now required to completely stop moving to Cure yourself.

I also feel that Spirits Within has too long of a recast. If you compare to WAR, Steel Cyclone has a 30 second recast and finishes their "tanking combo" (Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder (increases enmity) > Steel Cyclone) while GLA and PLD only get Fast > Flat.

Cover is underwhelming in general. It needs a shorter recast or the ability to block all attacks for a set duration to be useful.

While PLD with ballad is pretty good at surviving in straight-tank situations, I think the larger HP pool, better DD potential, and threat generation of WAR make it the better tank especially with how good of a healer WHM is now. It also doesn't require a BRD to put itself in danger to stick ballad on the tank.

The problem isnt Paladin. Its Gladiator or rather the armory/crossability system. They need to somehow nerve crossclassabilties for classes.
Maybe something like this:
when you play solo (as a class) everything is as it is righ now in the game.
2 player party = abilties that arent from your main class lose 10% of their power.
3 player party = abilties that arent from your main class lose 15% of their power.
.......
8 player party = abilties that arent from your main class lose 40% of their power.
(just as you get the acc and hp/mp boost you get debuffs for crosclass abilities when you play as a class)
or they should rework the armory system til its balanced.

edit: not saying the whole armory system is imbalanced but there is some stuff like this thread shows.

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Originally Posted by Reaujien

Yeah... but.... again... you don't need to rely on your MP to keep 100% of your threat. I mean, MP for a PLD isn't like 4 legs to a table: That is, PLDs have other "legs" they can boost their threat with (if you understand the analogy).

Also, DD classes have enmity-reduction capabilities. That, and, it's not hard to just ease off the DD. And, of course, if for w/e reason the DDs just can't pump enough damage to kill the mob before say a timer runs out or a mechanic is triggered, etc. etc., then either the PLD needs to rethink his/her play strategy, or perhaps the strategy for the entire party needs to be reevaluated.

For me, MP isn't the "end all, be all" for keeping threat. So far, I feel I've been able to hold threat pretty well in most situations; unless of course some DD like a BLM who ate paint chips as a child decided to unload his/her MP pool right at the beginning of a fight.

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I'm thinking of long fights regarding MP. To me, if there is a PLD in party, you should feel safe enough to not hold back. People will naturally think the PLD will grab hate right away again, but you cant do that if you run low on MP to quickly if provoke is not enough.

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Originally Posted by Saiph

The problem isnt Paladin. Its Gladiator or rather the armory/crossability system. They need to somehow nerve crossclassabilties for classes.
Maybe something like this:
when you play solo (as a class) everything is as it is righ now in the game.
2 player party = abilties that arent from your main class lose 10% of their power.
3 player party = abilties that arent from your main class lose 15% of their power.
.......
8 player party = abilties that arent from your main class lose 40% of their power.
(just as you get the acc and hp/mp boost you get debuffs for crosclass abilities when you play as a class)
or they should rework the armory system til its balanced.

edit: not saying the whole armory system is imbalanced but there is some stuff like this thread shows.

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Balancing by nerfing everything old when they add something new? No, Thank you.

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Originally Posted by kro

I think OP hit the nail on the head.

I've been talking about this with my LS and they agree that GLA is better because it can sustain itself better. In terms of kiting, GLA gets access to Featherfoot, Second Wind, Decoy, and Sanguine Rite. I would take these abilities any day over Holy Succor, especially since you are now required to completely stop moving to Cure yourself.

I also feel that Spirits Within has too long of a recast. If you compare to WAR, Steel Cyclone has a 30 second recast and finishes their "tanking combo" (Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder (increases enmity) > Steel Cyclone) while GLA and PLD only get Fast > Flat.

Cover is underwhelming in general. It needs a shorter recast or the ability to block all attacks for a set duration to be useful.

While PLD with ballad is pretty good at surviving in straight-tank situations, I think the larger HP pool, better DD potential, and threat generation of WAR make it the better tank especially with how good of a healer WHM is now. It also doesn't require a BRD to put itself in danger to stick ballad on the tank.

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Exactly! The problem is WAR actually got a lot of tanking buffs with a resource pool they can replenish easily (TP). PLD's resource for healing is nonexistent without a BRD, and they have almost nothing in terms of gains over GLA.

In terms of having a BLM use SP > SR and things like that, I get it but it's asking a lot of PUG's. I'm sure with a LS that uses vent it's fine, but I don't think things like that can be expected. This also requires THM, as BLM cannot use SP.

The whole BRD thing, I still say should not be required but very nice. You should want to have a BRD but not have to. FFXI (again I hate comparing to it) had multiple refresh jobs, and you werent totally screwed without one. The problem with forcing people to have one is now you can't do much unless you have WHM PLD BRD, which while I understand the diversity and fully want there to be a spread of jobs within a party, I don't beleive there should be much in terms of requiring certain jobs. Right now as it stands for most things you need a WHM, and a PLD or WAR - having to get a BRD as well is just serving to make things more difficult to set up.

A BRD is meant to buff, it should not be required to get BRD buffs to do something, particularly with 8 spots to fill as opposed to FFXI's 18.

EDIT: Also, in response to the other guy. Where did you pick up the word threat? That's a WoW term afaik, FFXI was enmity/hate. I personally just despise the WoW terms...

I don't understand how people are still ignoring the fact that JOBS ARE MADE FOR PARTIES.

You are not supposed to be self sufficient while on a job.

You are not supposed to be able to Take all the Damage, Deal all the Damage, Heal all the Damage and Recover MP all at once.

If your Paladin is running out of MP, your Bard is not Doing his job.

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Originally Posted by Signy

Balancing by nerfing everything old when they add something new? No, Thank you.

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the old is too strong in some situations. we can beat ifrit and moogles with classes, probably even better then we can beat them with the jobs. so rather then buff the jobs so it gets even easier then it was with classes. nerf the old stuff in some way. so jobs are prefered in parties, while the classes still have their place in solo play or small parties. also that was just an example.

edit: the problem isnt that jobs are too weak, but that classes are too strong.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

I don't understand how people are still ignoring the fact that JOBS ARE MADE FOR PARTIES.

You are not supposed to be self sufficient while on a job.

You are not supposed to be able to Take all the Damage, Deal all the Damage, Heal all the Damage and Recover MP all at once.

If your Paladin is running out of MP, your Bard is not Doing his job.

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I get what you're saying, but the fact is PLD does nothing useful that GLA can't, and even if you have a BRD GLA still recovers more MP than PLD does, and uses it basically the same.

The only thing PLD has over GLA is AF and a bigger heal, which is basically just replacing Second Wind which is now free.

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Originally Posted by Phobos

All of this is doable on GLA except for Holy Succor, which you mentioned is not that large compared to other abilities for enmity. GLA can also recover MP so it can do more AOE Cures over a long fight than PLD.

Edit: There's that word "threat" again... What's next, toon?

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That's not what I said (referring to what's in bold). I said well-placed/timed Holy Succors or SP > Cure generates a great amount of threat on their own, but coupled with (all the other abilities I listed) PLDs can generate a lot of threat in addition to healing. I didn't say one was larger than the other, but only that when used together (healing + other abilities) PDLs can, again, generate a lot of threat.

And, I'm not sure if you knew this but Outmaneuver recovers MP/block on a PLD. Unless I missed something on the patch notes and they changed that (which, I will completely stand corrected if so).

GLA can recover MP on their own with Featherfoot and Sanguine right. However, Featherfoot isn't 100% chance to evade, which means you won't get MP back if you don't evade (and yes, I've seen my Featherfoot buff timer drop to 0 before). And Sanguine Rite costs a good chunk of MP (with consideration to GLAs MP pool), and sometimes the MP you gain back doesn't cover the cost of using it, or the net amount gained is very minute.

I just.. I mean, it sounds like you're having a lot of MP-management issues on PLD compared to GLA, which sucks. I just don't agree with your point of view that GLAs are somehow far superior in management their MP compared to PLDs. One has an advantage over the other, yeah for sure, but I wouldn't suggest one is "better" to use the majority of the time or that one is "useless", or w/e, etc. etc.

BTW, there's a video on youtube of a certain "Dr." (hint hint) fighting the first boss in Cutter's Cry... using a PLD.... without a BRD... and the PLD didn't lose hate once. Again, I think it all just boils down to tactics.

I just use "threat" because it's a more general MMO term that everyone gets. I've had cases where I use "hate" and people think I'm insulting them or something.

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Originally Posted by Phobos

I get what you're saying, but the fact is PLD does nothing useful that GLA can't, and even if you have a BRD GLA still recovers more MP than PLD does, and uses it basically the same.

The only thing PLD has over GLA is AF and a bigger heal, which is basically just replacing Second Wind which is now free.

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Good point. I do think that of all the jobs, the paladin skills are the least "class-changing." A lot of jobs got great skills that are worth losing the cross-class abilities to get. I was hoping paladins would get more shield abilities to focus more on damage mitigation rather than a weaponskill that increases paladin damage a little.

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Originally Posted by Saiph

the old is too strong in some situations. we can beat ifrit and moogles with classes, probably even better then we can beat them with the jobs. so rather then buff the jobs so it gets even easier then it was with classes. nerf the old stuff in some way. so jobs are prefered in parties, while the classes still have their place in solo play or small parties. also that was just an example.

edit: the problem isnt that jobs are too weak, but that classes are too strong.

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So you think that to make the game more challenging SE should nerf the classes that are better that theirs corresponding jobs?

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Originally Posted by Reaujien

That's not what I said (referring to what's in bold). I said well-placed/timed Holy Succors or SP > Cure generates a great amount of threat on their own, but coupled with (all the other abilities I listed) PLDs can generate a lot of threat in addition to healing. I didn't say one was larger than the other, but only that when used together (healing + other abilities) PDLs can, again, generate a lot of threat.

And, I'm not sure if you knew this but Outmaneuver recovers MP/block on a PLD. Unless I missed something on the patch notes and they changed that (which, I will completely stand corrected if so).

GLA can recover MP on their own with Featherfoot and Sanguine right. However, Featherfoot isn't 100% chance to evade, which means you won't get MP back if you don't evade (and yes, I've seen my Featherfoot buff timer drop to 0 before). And Sanguine Rite costs a good chunk of MP (with consideration to GLAs MP pool), and sometimes the MP you gain back doesn't cover the cost of using it, or the net amount gained is very minute.

I just.. I mean, it sounds like you're having a lot of MP-management issues on PLD compared to GLA, which sucks. I just don't agree with your point of view that GLAs are somehow far superior in management their MP compared to PLDs. One has an advantage over the other, yeah for sure, but I wouldn't suggest one is "better" to use the majority of the time or that one is "useless", or w/e, etc. etc.

BTW, there's a video on youtube of a certain "Dr." (hint hint) fighting the first boss in Cutter's Cry... using a PLD.... without a BRD... and the PLD didn't lose hate once. Again, I think it all just boils down to tactics.

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I don't care about hate, I'm fine with hate. I also have mentioned Outmaneuver quite a bit and how useless it is.

PLD has no MP recovery available to it (no, Outmaneuver does not count, 9MP every few times you use it is nothing more than a bad joke)
GLA has plenty of MP recovery available to it, and access to a free self heal.

I think the problem is more that PLD hasn't gained much over GLA in terms of defense etc (it was supposed to), and the abilities it has access to don't supplement that enough (imho). GLA ends up with better survivability. My issue is that the point of a tank is to keep something attacking you, and not die. PLD gains nothing over GLA for this, and actually loses abilities that help you to not die.

I'll have to take a look at the Cutter's Cry video, but I'm guessing there's less need for healing people other than the PLD, which would make up for this. If the individual fights were shorter, though, this problem would not have come up. We also had a pick up group, though, the quality of which I cannot attest to. I could have just had more pressure on me to use heals because the WHM was busy healing other people that were doing things wrong.

I guess I just found it odd when I was standing there, cycling through my abilities toward the end when the realization hit me that I was out of MP and had no way of keeping myself alive other than a bloodbath that while nice, was not enough. It was just very surprising at the time and strikes me as odd that GLA has just as many enmity tools as PLD, and more survival tools. This would be fine if the buff to defense/damage taken for PLD was better.

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Originally Posted by Reaujien

That's not what I said (referring to what's in bold). I said well-placed/timed Holy Succors or SP > Cure generates a great amount of threat on their own, but coupled with (all the other abilities I listed) PLDs can generate a lot of threat in addition to healing. I didn't say one was larger than the other, but only that when used together (healing + other abilities) PDLs can, again, generate a lot of threat.

And, I'm not sure if you knew this but Outmaneuver recovers MP/block on a PLD. Unless I missed something on the patch notes and they changed that (which, I will completely stand corrected if so).

GLA can recover MP on their own with Featherfoot and Sanguine right. However, Featherfoot isn't 100% chance to evade, which means you won't get MP back if you don't evade (and yes, I've seen my Featherfoot buff timer drop to 0 before). And Sanguine Rite costs a good chunk of MP (with consideration to GLAs MP pool), and sometimes the MP you gain back doesn't cover the cost of using it, or the net amount gained is very minute.

I just.. I mean, it sounds like you're having a lot of MP-management issues on PLD compared to GLA, which sucks. I just don't agree with your point of view that GLAs are somehow far superior in management their MP compared to PLDs. One has an advantage over the other, yeah for sure, but I wouldn't suggest one is "better" to use the majority of the time or that one is "useless", or w/e, etc. etc.

BTW, there's a video on youtube of a certain "Dr." (hint hint) fighting the first boss in Cutter's Cry... using a PLD.... without a BRD... and the PLD didn't lose hate once. Again, I think it all just boils down to tactics.

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I think he mentioned that the rate of MP recovery on Outmaneuver was insignificant compared to how much MP spells cost. Also, one of the advantages of Featherfoot is damage avoidance, not just MP recovery. Having it, and especially Second Wind as instant abilities is a fairly reliable panic-button when Sentinel is on cooldown. I know PLD gets hallowed ground, but that's 15 minutes.

I don't think anyone is arguing that PLD is incapable of tanking. It's that PLD is not necessarily any better than GLA while GLA remains more versatile than a PLD.

WAR is better than MRD as a DD-tank. MNK, DRG, and BLM are definitely better as DDs. WHM and BRD are much better at their intended roles while having practically zero downsides over CON and ARC. I would expect PLD to be a little better than it currently is.

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Originally Posted by Phobos

EDIT: Also, in response to the other guy. Where did you pick up the word threat? That's a WoW term afaik, FFXI was enmity/hate. I personally just despise the WoW terms...

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...ROFL... I mean, just PURE ROFL...

Go figure: I have a differing point of view than you do, and so instead of trying to look at them objectively, you autonomously decide to make a childish ad hominem reply..... LOL oh man... You're definitely touched that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by Reaujien

...ROFL... I mean, just PURE ROFL...

Go figure: I have a differing point of view than you do, and so instead of trying to look at them objectively, you autonomously decide to make a childish ad hominem reply..... LOL oh man... You're definitely touched that's for sure.

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Okay sure, ignore all the replies I have made to you and take a look at the side-note about your word choice and my aversion to it.

Seriously though, where did people pick that up? I just hate the term almost as much as toon its so grating to my ears I can't even explain why.

Either way, all I'm trying to get at is that PLD has two main purposes

Make the mob attack you.
Don't die.

GLA can do the first just as well as PLD, and the second even better. That is the issue I'm trying to get at. I don't necessarily want PLD to have an infinite MP pool, I'd be fine if it just took less damage. The issue is that GLA can tank better than PLD.

This is all relatively inconsequential right now though, as WAR is by far the best tank right now.

If you want to be more self sufficient, try getting ahold of some potions. I was discussing with my PLD friend and it seems like getting into the habit of using Maddening potions (+100 enmity for 1 minute with a 5 minute medicine restriction) is a nice way to start off the fight.

Looking at the abilities, it seems like with a Paladin in a group they are meant to heal the rest of the group either directly with Holy Succor or indirectly with Divine Veil, while the WHM mainly focuses on the PLD and heals anyone that requires any emergency healing. This is even backed up with the AF body seemingly making Cover last its full duration instead of one hit, and especially now that you don't have to get in front of the target for Cover to work you can pop it as its needed.

As far as maintaining your MP, get a competent BRD. WHMs are required for Parties so I think it's fine if BRD is required for tougher fights.

Aside from that, once again, look into new medicines. Mega-Ethers recover 600 MP over time and restrict medicines for 4 minutes. That should be enough for some Holy Succor'ing in the mean time and should go a long way especially with a BRD. And if BRD is enough to keep your MP going just grab some more Maddening potions. You could even have the rest of the group use Nerve Drops at the start of the fight for the -80 Enmity it gives.

Edit: Also, if you have a PLD you can go nuts with MNKs in a group since you can help heal them with your abilities and it justifies having a BRD give the Melee Ballad of Magi. MNK can keep up its ludicrous damage with constant MP recovery so it's win-win for your group.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

If you want to be more self sufficient, try getting ahold of some potions. I was discussing with my PLD friend and it seems like getting into the habit of using Maddening potions (+100 enmity for 1 minute with a 5 minute medicine restriction) is a nice way to start off the fight.

Looking at the abilities, it seems like with a Paladin in a group they are meant to heal the rest of the group either directly with Holy Succor or indirectly with Divine Veil, while the WHM mainly focuses on the PLD and heals anyone that requires any emergency healing. This is even backed up with the AF body seemingly making Cover last its full duration instead of one hit, and especially now that you don't have to get in front of the target for Cover to work you can pop it as its needed.

As far as maintaining your MP, get a competent BRD. WHMs are required for Parties so I think it's fine if BRD is required for tougher fights.

Aside from that, once again, look into new medicines. Mega-Ethers recover 600 MP over time and restrict medicines for 4 minutes. That should be enough for some Holy Succor'ing in the mean time and should go a long way especially with a BRD. And if BRD is enough to keep your MP going just grab some more Maddening potions. You could even have the rest of the group use Nerve Drops at the start of the fight for the -80 Enmity it gives.

Edit: Also, if you have a PLD you can go nuts with MNKs in a group since you can help heal them with your abilities and it justifies having a BRD give the Melee Ballad of Magi. MNK can keep up its ludicrous damage with constant MP recovery so it's win-win for your group.

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As far as the enmity meds, no issues with enmity for me right now but I'll keep it in mind, seems like a decent boost.

The whole BRD thing, I just find it odd that we're now requiring another job in the mix. Yes it's nice to have diversity but when you need a BRD for mp recovery, and BRD is the only job that gives others MP recovery, you run into issues with setting up parties.

To me, PLD has gained nothing in terms of enmity generation or survivability over GLA. GLA can do everything PLD can and more, aside from Holy Succor, which is a bit of an MP sink regardless. PLD actually seems to have gained more healing and damage dealing potential than tanking potential.

Edit: I realize you're likely responding to my first post, oh which my opinion has changed a bit due to some of these responses. At this point I'm leaning more towards they just need to buff PLD's damage taken compared to GLA. I still think Outmaneuver should be fixed, and adding an MP recovery effect to Spirits Within instead of damage boost would be nice, but the lack of any gains in terms of damage mitigation for PLD just puts GLA and WAR ahead of it right now.

Also, just on the whole BRD thing - people keep saying use a BRD etc, but the fact still remains.

Even with a BRD GLA can recover more MP and use it more often than PLD, thus resulting in a more effective tank even in the case of having a BRD.

I dont have a problem taking PLD over GLA and have experienced the issues with running out of MP, however..

I personally have found i dont NEED to be throwing cures to keep hate and i dont use holy succor specifically for hate generation.

My philosophy is:

build hate with sentinal-> Provoke, flash, war drum, ws's, rampart

Increase party survivabilty with holy succor and divine veil. I imagine if i have pugs and drgs around me eating aoe they would be thankfull for a regen from divine veil.

I find that the whm over cure me anyway and by the time i finish casting holy succor it cures for 0, so i save it for other party members which are less likely to get a cure so quickly from the healers.

and tell me poping Hallowed ground when the next hit is going to kill you doesnt completely redeem the job

FYI, you can recover alot of MP in the Ifrit fight by putting your sword away and standing still during jumps, but i realise this isnt normally possible.

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Originally Posted by Rogue

I dont have a problem taking PLD over GLA and have experienced the issues with running out of MP, however..

I personally have found i dont NEED to be throwing cures to keep hate and i dont use holy succor specifically for hate generation.

My philosophy is:

build hate with sentinal-> Provoke, flash, war drum, ws's, rampart

Increase party survivabilty with holy succor and divine veil. I imagine if i have pugs and drgs around me eating aoe they would be thankfull for a regen from divine veil.

I find that the whm over cure me anyway and by the time i finish casting holy succor it cures for 0, so i save it for other party members which are less likely to get a cure so quickly from the healers.

and tell me poping Hallowed ground when the next hit is going to kill you doesnt completely redeem the job

FYI, you can recover alot of MP in the Ifrit fight by putting your sword away and standing still during jumps, but i realise this isnt normally possible.

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I actually tried going into passive mode, and it didn't do much for me. I personally don't use succor for hate generation, but to supplement the WHM's heals.

I was fine on MP until the WHM ran over, used Chainspell Raise on a BLM that had died, and ran back to his spot. during that short time, since I had no stalling moves or free heals, I had burnt my MP and had no way of recovering it, adding pressure to the WHM. This was the first I had run into an issue with PLD really. The point is though, even though PLD can tank (with the right setup, and perhaps we just had poor players that put too much pressure on the WHM), GLA can do it better. Just thinking about the abilities PLD got, none of them match up to what GLA has access to.

Since PLD has no enmity generation tools GLA doesn't have, and no defensive/survivability moves that GLA doesn't have, it's use as a tank is severely limited. The abilities right now just don't warrant using it over GLA.

I will be using GLA over PLD in most cases at this point, I am just hoping this issue can get addressed. I do consider it an issue as PLD is supposed to be a better tank than GLA, and it is not.

EDIT: Not in response to anyone in particular, but the whole GLA is supposed to be more self-sufficient I get, but it's inherent self-sufficiency is a greater asset to tanking than PLD's gain of a few mediocre abilities and supposedly a minor defense buff.

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Edit: I realize you're likely responding to my first post, oh which my opinion has changed a bit due to some of these responses. At this point I'm leaning more towards they just need to buff PLD's damage taken compared to GLA. I still think Outmaneuver should be fixed, and adding an MP recovery effect to Spirits Within instead of damage boost would be nice, but the lack of any gains in terms of damage mitigation for PLD just puts GLA and WAR ahead of it right now.

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I really just think PLD needs increased Block rates and Outmaneuver's MP recovery boosted, like you suggested. From what I understand Spirits Within does a lot of damage (we didn't get many chances to try it out this weekend unfortunately) so it is likely how you are meant to hold hate when your MP is low since damage gives more enmity than healing does. Possibly its recast time could be reduced, but boosting block rates and outmaneuver would combat most of the problems with PLD.

Then again there may just a difference in playstyle required by PLD that we just aren't getting.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

I really just think PLD needs increased Block rates and Outmaneuver's MP recovery boosted, like you suggested. From what I understand Spirits Within does a lot of damage (we didn't get many chances to try it out this weekend unfortunately) so it is likely how you are meant to hold hate when your MP is low since damage gives more enmity than healing does. Possibly its recast time could be reduced, but boosting block rates and outmaneuver would combat most of the problems with PLD.

Then again there may just a difference in playstyle required by PLD that we just aren't getting.

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This. Personally I would prefer Spirits Within combo bonus to do something like MP recovery or HP recovery rather than damage, and seeing how it's recast is quite long that doesn't seem too unreasonable. I would be perfectly happy with Outmaneuver becoming useful. Boosted block rate makes sense as well.

I would like changes like this, as I want to use PLD, but I feel as though I'm compelled to use GLA instead. In a party situation you should be compelled to use the Job, which does not seem to be the case right now.

I tanked Ifrit a number of times yesterday and found it much easier with a PLD and with a handful of other playing using jobs, compared to when I was a GLA.

In my opinion, a PLD shouldn't have to prioritize MP recovery. That's the mages' job. The BRD should be using the MP regen song on healers so that THEY can do their job of keeping the tank alive. As a PLD, I used my MP only for healing myself when my HP got relatively low, and also for casting Stoneskin on myself. Doing this, the lowest I got with my MP was just around half.

That said, potions shouldn't be underestimated. But if your priority is maintaining enmity, you *could* keep curing yourself and using ethers to compensate for lost MP... or you could just use a Maddening Potion.

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Originally Posted by psykhaotic

I tanked Ifrit a number of times yesterday and found it much easier with a PLD and with a handful of other playing using jobs, compared to when I was a GLA.

In my opinion, a PLD shouldn't have to prioritize MP recovery. That's the mages' job. The BRD should be using the MP regen song on healers so that THEY can do their job of keeping the tank alive. As a PLD, I used my MP only for healing myself when my HP got relatively low, and also for casting Stoneskin on myself. Doing this, the lowest I got with my MP was just around half.

That said, potions shouldn't be underestimated. But if your priority is maintaining enmity, you *could* keep curing yourself and using ethers to compensate for lost MP... or you could just use a Maddening Potion.

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Are you sure you had an easier time with PLD because of PLD, or because you had a BRD and a WHM where before you may have only had a CNJ?

I just bring this up because honestly, I see no reason for PLD to outdo GLA as it stands, unless BRD allowed you to succor frequently.

EDIT: Based on some of the replies, specifically this one, I should not have come across this issue if we had a BRD for the WHM, or perhaps a second WHM. Even so, I still beleive Outmaneuver should be fixed, and the Defense boost for PLD should actually be noticeable for the loss of HP. To me, GLA still seems to have a bit more over time survivability with the same enmity tools.

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Originally Posted by Phobos

Are you sure you had an easier time with PLD because of PLD, or because you had a BRD and a WHM where before you may have only had a CNJ?

I just bring this up because honestly, I see no reason for PLD to outdo GLA as it stands, unless BRD allowed you to succor frequently.

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As I mentioned (and I realize now that I used the wrong word and thus my sentence didn't make sense), it was with other players doing jobs (as opposed to classes). So the other jobs made it easier for sure, but I also attribute it to the added enmity and healing strength in the PLD artifact armor. There might've been other things that made it easier, too; I imagine the added Defense you get as a PLD helped since I didn't have to get healed as often, despite the decreased HP. It could just be in my head, though.

Also, I stuck with Cure and only used Holy Succor on my party if I felt like it. (I'm pretty selfish for a PLD I guess.) I know Holy Succor uses a lot more MP, so maybe sticking with Cure for self-cures helped with the MP conservation?

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Originally Posted by psykhaotic

As I mentioned (and I realize now that I used the wrong word and thus my sentence didn't make sense), it was with other players doing jobs (as opposed to classes). So the other jobs made it easier for sure, but I also attribute it to the added enmity and healing strength in the PLD artifact armor. There might've been other things that made it easier, too; I imagine the added Defense you get as a PLD helped since I didn't have to get healed as often, despite the decreased HP. It could just be in my head, though.

Also, I stuck with Cure and only used Holy Succor on my party if I felt like it. (I'm pretty selfish for a PLD I guess.) I know Holy Succor uses a lot more MP, so maybe sticking with Cure for self-cures helped with the MP conservation?

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Ah, I think I understand you a bit more here. Perhaps I'll avoid succor more, though I was mostly using it on myself. I still wonder though, if you were just using cure would GLA have been better? Perhaps we'll just need more input but I feel like the big advantage of PLD for you is the same as it is for me (and likely others): the gear.

The gear is great, though I think it should add a tad more defense (my defense is comparable to my WAR friend in his full AF). I think the best test would be a GLA does the fight in their GLA gear, then again on PLD but in their GLA gear. Supposedly the AF gear is supposed to be a little better than double-melded gear (at least I thought I read that somewhere), so someone who has that or more might find GLA definitively better or worse. I don't mean to say PLD can't tank, but compared to GLA the abilities given just don't seem good enough (compared to the difference between the other classes and their jobs enhancing their specific roles as you would expect).

Paladin is a tank, Bard has mp songs if u check the jobs carefully you will see that what SE wants is not a PLD, WHM and rest BLM party, they want all classes to be needed, in the Ant princess fight (that i havent beat yet) you actually see this strategy shown more clearly.

You need a full tank (PLD) a trash tank (WAR) a healer (WHM) a buffer (BRD) and AoE damage dealers almost every other damage dealing job has AoE ws, so u can go with a 2nd BRD DRG's MNK's or an extra WAR or BLM's, thats the thing we were missing an especific role and right now you can only complete certain role and thats it, that makes things easier for every class/job now you wont get to be the class/job of the month like we were....

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Originally Posted by elreed

Paladin is a tank, Bard has mp songs if u check the jobs carefully you will see that what SE wants is not a PLD, WHM and rest BLM party, they want all classes to be needed, in the Ant princess fight (that i havent beat yet) you actually see this strategy shown more clearly.

You need a full tank (PLD) a trash tank (WAR) a healer (WHM) a buffer (BRD) and AoE damage dealers almost every other damage dealing job has AoE ws, so u can go with a 2nd BRD DRG's MNK's or an extra WAR or BLM's, thats the thing we were missing an especific role and right now you can only complete certain role and thats it, that makes things easier for every class/job now you wont get to be the class/job of the month like we were....

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you missed the part that a GLA can do it easier, and in the future there will be more classes and jobs to choose from.

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Originally Posted by elreed

Paladin is a tank, Bard has mp songs if u check the jobs carefully you will see that what SE wants is not a PLD, WHM and rest BLM party, they want all classes to be needed, in the Ant princess fight (that i havent beat yet) you actually see this strategy shown more clearly.

You need a full tank (PLD) a trash tank (WAR) a healer (WHM) a buffer (BRD) and AoE damage dealers almost every other damage dealing job has AoE ws, so u can go with a 2nd BRD DRG's MNK's or an extra WAR or BLM's, thats the thing we were missing an especific role and right now you can only complete certain role and thats it, that makes things easier for every class/job now you wont get to be the class/job of the month like we were....

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While your points are valid, requirements have simply shifted from:

Need: Tank, Healer, BLMs (or whatever you want)

to:

Need: Paladin, Healer, Bard, Warrior, etc.

The requirements are more spread out, but you still have specific classes/jobs you're looking to fill.

Also GLA > PLD is more my point, as the first reply mentions

Gladiator works for moogle and ifrit no problem, no nerfs and slight buffs for 1.21.

Gladiator doesn't have any disadvantages compared to pld for either new raid since you pretty much just go thm/blm and sleep to next boss making waiting on a 15 min cd unreasonable.

Fuck this shit, just going to play thm and go back to never dying and being top dps.

Too many posts here for me to read;

PLD is useful in balanced parties with someone to sanguine rite them, or better yet, to give them ballad. In those situations, (more-so the second) the PLD can spam Holy Succor for hate-- and by that extension-- hold hate better than a GLA and additionally be able to heal themselves more effectively.

Another thing; PLD is useful for people with unmelded/poorly melded gear for their gladiators.

TLDR: Use PLD when you have the proper setup, otherwise tank on Gladiator.

edit: as a second thought; has anyone made a list concerning the enmity values of the new PLD abilities? I've looked around a little, and would be interested to see numbers.

Play the PLD like you never heard of GLD. Find solutions and ways to fight that are new for you. That is the fun of the thing.