To healers enjoying 5.0: a gil for your thoughts?

AST main back in SB and I was worry about the card change. After some run with new AST, I found it isn’t so bad after all, pre 5.0, just draw card, AOE balace/AOE def/AOE crit in raid. This new card is similar to previous system, jus took at range or melee or tank or heal, and watch for the seal. With the higher heal demand I found I am more busy and occupied, which is what I preferred over dropping some dps spell. I hope such higher heal demand will be consistent throughout the whole expension. The only change I would like to see would be having divination CD lower, I don’t mind weaken the buff abit inexchange of more frequent up time

I'm almost happy with WHM. I'm level 80 and it feels like there is no really big change. Only missing some raid utility but it has been the same in Stormblood, so doesn't really matter.

So after I finished my WHM I started to level my AST next.
Did anyone mention, that taking a card and giving the card to a person (don't know english skill names) is now on 2 different slots? Why the hell? Don't have a keybord-slot for this. Need to click and that feels pretty bad for me. No good flow in playing.

The new Ast feels terrible, and I was a Ast main since Heavensward. The new card system is depressing .Sch I cant really comment on since I really never got into the job. I leveled it and that was all. Whm got away cleanly. They got the best work done out of all jobs

A quote from Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...o_be_a_healer/

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Meatshield236
WHM is a monster right now. Holy spam is silly good against trash and you have 4 instant ways of healing or preventing damage. Plenary Indulgence turns Medica 2 into a full heal for the party, Lilies are a free and instant Cure 2 every 30 seconds, and Divine Beneson takes tank busters like a champ now that it scales with healing. I find myself almost never casting cure anymore because of all the ways you can prep for damage spikes. And I'm a sucker for all the shininess of Dia and Glare, they look so pretty.

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Pretty much what Ian posted, and my WHM is only 71.
Medica 2's total potency is 700 and with the reduced tick time with bigger ticks it's fast enough that might as well be a full party cure2, then you can add plenary indulgence to make it *even better*.
Also plenary indulgence doesn't go away after one heal, so two afflatus rapture's is a massive heal bomb.

Also also, medica 2 costs less mp than cure 3, which makes medica 2 so good that it almost seems like an oversight since this renders cure 3 almost useless unless for some reason you don't have any lilies for rapture, assize and asylum on cooldown AND you already have medica 2 up and ticking and you *still* somehow need more aoe healing and media 1 doesn't cut it.
A situation that I find... improbable.

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Originally Posted by Lynesse

I don't know what to say to this. It feels like you're putting words in my mouth. I mean, to me it was just a DoT with an ugly animation that cost a lot of MP.

This isn't the place to argue this, though. Someone asked for my opinion -- as someone who enjoys it currently -- and I gave it. Really, there's very little substance to these arguments, anyway.

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Could you explain what part sounds like putting words in your mouth, or what part has little substance? You lost me there. My point was that there was so much more to it than that; that if you dug deeper, you'd find treasure.


I did pose the question to hear people's thoughts, but I guess continuing the conversation with my own perspective afterwards wasn't as well received. Ouch.

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Originally Posted by Gravagar

...if you dug deeper, you'd find treasure.

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This is a good example of why it isn't well received. These arguments are fallacies, and it's disrespectful.

I did dig deeper. I did find treasure. I found a diamond in the rough, one that was polished with this new rework.

There's plenty to support why it was a diamond in the rough. SB's launch, the subsequent updates, the QoL problems that got in the way of what was a fun rhythm.

These discussions devolve into elitism. By saying, "If you dug deeper..." You assume this stance that you know more than I do. You do not.

I don't know more than you, either. This is an opinion piece. It's important to respect that.

AST is fine if they shorten the Divination cooldown. The changes take some getting used to but I am having fun still.

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Originally Posted by ElainaMason

Did anyone mention, that taking a card and giving the card to a person (don't know english skill names) is now on 2 different slots? Why the hell? Don't have a keybord-slot for this. Need to click and that feels pretty bad for me. No good flow in playing.

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They removed spread, road, remove spread and remove road, that gives you 4 free keyboard slots.

The sky isn't falling.

Healers just don't like that we're becoming more traditional healer roles. I actually like it. Healing was trivialized for so long in this game and people were fooled into thinking that healer DPS was something more than it really is: mediocre spells, doing mediocre damage mixed in with shallow gameplay. Even tanks have a rotation, healers just literally have between one or two spells they heavily rely on. It was pathetic seeing that being a good healer meant that you just did your mechanics right and did great DPS and not because of how well you healed because the tanks and the content didn't really have much need for healing except during scripted moments like tankbusters and seeing people praise that kind of gameplay crushed my soul.

You would literally just DPS your brains out and then just cast a heal spell here and there. I like that healing is relevant now. It should've never been trivialized, but I guess the developers couldn't balance out the healing game until an expansion, where they could freely roll out huge and substantial changes across the board. Thank god, because being a healer now actually means being a healer, not this stupid meme of hurr hurr im a dee p ess nawt a helur hurr

Are we really healing more though? In the dungeon I spammed last night I was nudging around 6k if the tank did big pulls. DPS were anywhere from 4 to 8k. Most tanks seemed around 4-5k. This was in the 75 dungeon mind. I need the mash the rest of the MSQ tonight and unlock expert again =(

Got SCH to 80 and OMG Seraph is incredible. Solo healing SCH is very possible with all this and Blessing....

Also Blessing has a bit of an annoying delay. Can that be adjusted? :/

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Originally Posted by kartana

AST is fine if they shorten the Divination cooldown. The changes take some getting used to but I am having fun still.


They removed spread, road, remove spread and remove road, that gives you 4 free keyboard slots.

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I clicked those skills that have been removed. For the other skills it has been okay. So no keyboard slots at all ^^

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Originally Posted by CarnivalNights

Healers just don't like that we're becoming more traditional healer roles.

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I'm just wondering where you are getting the idea about traditional healer roles?

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Originally Posted by CarnivalNights

Healers just don't like that we're becoming more traditional healer roles. I actually like it. Healing was trivialized for so long in this game and people were fooled into thinking that healer DPS was something more than it really is: mediocre spells, doing mediocre damage mixed in with shallow gameplay.

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Inplying the healing kits in this game aren't shallow gameplay.

Ooo, one person took damage. Use one of the three anti-one-person-damage buttons. Four people took damage, use one of the three anti-everyone-took-damage buttons.

The stupidification of the damage kits didn't magically make the healing complex or especially interesting. Just made the downtime more boring.

I'm always curious about this "dps healer" meta. It feels like it's such a small portion of the community. I might just have been lucky, but every raid static I've been in couldn't have cared less if I dps'd, as long as I did the mechanics right and kept everyone on their feet. I've had more than a few parses while doing progression where I literally had zero DPS, but we got through the raids fine. Obviously, once I became comfortable within the rythm of things and had raids on farm, I'd throw out more dps, but I can't remember ever having anyone call me out for not dps'ing.

I've been mostly a scholar main, though, so maybe it was a bit of SCH priveledge or something.

As far as the topic goes, I do miss having my Shadowflare and Energy Drain. I find myself subconsciously hitting the buttons for them during slow healing moments, or when aetherflow is up and I still have stacks. I'd be happy to have the DPS abilities back, simply because people who believe in the green DPS meta will be happy to have them, and all the people who don't want to dps would be happy to ignore them. Having them literally doesn't hurt anyone except healers trying to get into the very tippy top progression raids, or people in groups over obsessed about the meta, in which case said healer would be better served finding more like minded players, not restructuring healers from the ground up.

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Originally Posted by Martyr

I'm always curious about this "dps healer" meta. It feels like it's such a small portion of the community. I might just have been lucky, but every raid static I've been in couldn't have cared less if I dps'd, as long as I did the mechanics right and kept everyone on their feet. I've had more than a few parses while doing progression where I literally had zero DPS, but we got through the raids fine. Obviously, once I became comfortable within the rythm of things and had raids on farm, I'd throw out more dps, but I can't remember ever having anyone call me out for not dps'ing.

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It depends on what kind of raiding you're doing though. If you're just doing the hyper casual, friends and fun, don't care if we progress, we'll get to it when we get to it raiding then healer DPS won't matter that much. If you're doing any type of Savage raiding/progression typically you'll have the healers DPS'ing to help push that progression. IMO, there shouldn't be a time where we're just standing still looking around. If we're not healing we SHOULD be using the DPS parts of our kits and helping out the rest of our team; regardless of if they would call us out for it or not.

P.S: I miss Aero lll and hate that my fancy new Misery AOE dps ability is locked behind blowing potentially wasteful healing Lily stacks to access it.

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Originally Posted by Lynesse

This is an opinion piece. It's important to respect that.

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I'm pretty sure I did that when I asked for more details on an opinion you expressed earlier.

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Originally Posted by Gravagar

Could you explain what part sounds like putting words in your mouth, or what part has little substance? You lost me there.

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I'd also ask why you're calling what I said fallacies / disrespectful / elitism. I stated that I'm mindful that a positive aspect of these changes is that the new healers are more approachable for new players, which if I'm not mistaken, is evidence I'm mindful of avoiding elitism. I've also partly changed that opinion of mine based on the responses in this thread; opinions need not be set in stone.


Bringing it back on topic... There's one thing that you'd be fair to assume that I believe without evidence that you could give me flak about- that there's going to be a rebalance of the rebalance given the 5.0 release's reception. You gave a lot of details about what you liked, I'm not sure I agree with them personally, but I'm not attacking your beliefs so much as sharing the differences in perspectives to get a clearer picture of a future where those who benefit from the rebalance-rebalance come from both camps, rather than just one.


So far, the number one universally reviled intentional design choice I see is that combat-only Aetherflow was a huge mistake, and if it benefitted anyone, those scholars are awfully quiet.

I'm loving WHM. The new lily system and afflatus spells feel great and add a bit of urgency to their kit, Assize is still the best healer spell in the game imo, and the job just feels strong and efficient. It reminds me of Holy Priest in WoW where I just have a tool for everything. I feel spoiled as WHM tbh. It's going to be hard for me to try AST now with its simpler healing kit.

I didn't have a great first impression with SCH, I started leveling it before WHM, but was thrown off by the new feel of the job. I do, however, like the look of SCH's healing kit at 80. I'll no doubt give it another go.

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Originally Posted by Gravagar

Snip.

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You were passive aggressive and condescending, and I explained why. Since you didn't address any of that, I'm going to assume I'm in the right. You can't ask for my opinion, and when it differs from yours, act superior to me. That was wrong of you.

I like WHM a lot.
I enjoy the more holy-oriented theme.

AST's card drawing abilities have been nerfed to the ground and the healing potential is actually less sense they removed the 15% off of the stances. Sure they buffed our healing potential on specific abilities, but it doesn't even come close to the healing potential that we've would had received from the 15% buff, already calculated it out, just look at ALL the stats prior to the changes, and it always come out above.

Divination - Useless as it only last 15 seconds, for an ability that has a cool down of 180 seconds! not including card drawing times...
Aspected Helios & Aspected Benefic both have their effectiveness buffed, but their time active has been reduced. Sure that isn't so bad, but we would be burning twice the amount of mana now, micromanaging our abilities more as well.


I don't Mind being more involved, but don't affect my healing effectiveness in doing so :/

So far I do not enjoy the AST changes.

To make it a competitive healer, they either need to increase the time for Divination, or reduce the recast. As for Aspected Helios & Aspected Benefic, put it back to 30 seconds. Also shield stance is SO useless, as most mobs in 70+ dungeons just slap it in 1 normal hit.

They just released a new tank and a new dps and NOT a new healer. The Adventurer in Need in DF being healer right now means nothing. Everyone is playing the new classes. Wait for the new car smell to wear off and then see where we are.

Removing the "extends duration of buffs" from Celestial Opposition was a mistake. AST would be way more fun with the old CO. Especially since Divination is so short. I don't care about the card changes, there is enough other stuff that actually makes the class less fun.

I'd like to offer a bit of feedback from a low level WHM. I just hit lv 50 last week so the dungeons I get in roulette are all rather low level. When I first logged in I was pretty underwhelmed when I loved at my hotbar: break was gone, eye for an eye was gone, largesse was gone, protect was gone and cleric stance was gone...

So, let me go over that in detail, in no particular order:

First dungeons I ran I noticed right away that all the healing spells were buffed and its very noticeable even now. I honestly feel powerful and robust and situations where the tank should have died were avoided. I haven't had a death in my party since the changes were implemented. I realised tanks are also more sturdy, but overall the experience feels smoother and less stressful (on lv50- content :)).

But this had the unfortunate effect of giving me little else to do while no one needs healing. If I enter any lv45- dungeon I basically have, as non healing spells, stone and aero. Sometimes holy. And that's it really... Before I would cast break for a little debuff, eye for an eye as a small buff to the tank and then of I could risk it, cleric stance and precence of mind to dish out a bit of good damage. Now.... Stone.... Stone... Stone.... Aero. It's boring really and it saddens me.

So break and eye for an eye are gone. Largesse and protect are also gone but I don't find myself missing them. It feels more like less of 1 button to push for largesse although I occasionally miss protect... Cleric stance is gone and I miss it more for the feel of powerfulness it gave me.

So overall I'm mixed on the changes but I can tell you that leveling with only 2 main attack skills and nothing else is quite boring for the begginers WHM out there. I know it gets more interesting as you unlock more stuff with levels, but that's what every mmo says and ff14 was different : at every level the classes were fun and engaging to play. I feel they might have messed up a bit here.

But the healing is powerful and that's fun to have.

You'll feel the lack of Largesse soon enough unfortunately =(

Lvl sch atm and it feels not as good a more in aoe situations and I hate the fact to use aetherflow stack when aetherflow comes of cd just to get my mana and my gauge. And we were the new ex trials with my static yesterday and sch single target dps is not bad. Just give sch something to dumb aetherflow and the job is ok. The same with Astro, I talked with my friend who is my static Astro and plays Astro since release and did even gordias and midas with it when astro wasn’t good and he says it’s more or less ok not good and not bad. There needs to be some quality of life changes and the need to reduce the shield stacking with sch minimal but after it’s not the best but ok

For the costs and cooldowns, it seems like Fey Blessing / Consolation should heal for a bit more... or maybe that will get better later on when we are more geared? :/

I’ve only done the first expert dungeon, but I’ve been enjoying playing Scholar. Seraph is fun to use, i love going through each individual enemy and applying DoTs, maybe from my time as a Bard.

I do wish we had more to do during healing downtime as I do predict that once we have more gear the healing requirements will become extremely small to non-existent.

I still wish they’d give healers buff spells though lol, it seems like they want to discourage healer DPS but they haven’t given us anything else to do yet when we aren’t healing. Like Bravery/Faith and maybe even Protect/Shell for defensive utility. Or they could just have two generic ‘increases damage’ (Bravery) and ‘reduces damage taken’ (Protect), to avoid button bloat

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Originally Posted by Gravagar

I think the uptime on healers being the In-Demand role in DF speaks for itself

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Does it?

Healer/Tank are almost always the In Demand role but with the release, and popularity, of GNB of course Healer is going to be in demand.

Hell, so many people are leveling GNB the DPS is almost 100% in demand on my datacentre for Alliance Raids.

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

Does it?

Healer/Tank are almost always the In Demand role but with the release, and popularity, of GNB of course Healer is going to be in demand.

Hell, so many people are leveling GNB the DPS is almost 100% in demand on my datacentre for Alliance Raids.

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5 out of 7 roulettes (Alliance included, I don't have Expert unlocked yet sadly) are healer in-demand on my datacenter. You're right about the rebalance not being the only factor in this equasion; the new jobs are contributing for sure.

I'd love to ask Yoshida to go back and give us the new healer job we were expecting to equalize that aspect, but I don't believe he would, due to all sorts of development-side restraints. Might as well focus on the rebalance, since it'll be easier to make adjustments to, right?

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Originally Posted by Lumy

So overall I'm mixed on the changes but I can tell you that leveling with only 2 main attack skills and nothing else is quite boring for the begginers WHM out there. I know it gets more interesting as you unlock more stuff with levels, but that's what every mmo says and ff14 was different : at every level the classes were fun and engaging to play. I feel they might have messed up a bit here.

But the healing is powerful and that's fun to have.

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As someone who leveled all their healers to 70 prior to Shadowbringers, I was wondering what leveling a healer from a lower level would be like. I've gotten a taste with lv50 and lv60 roulettes... I hope they can bring back some of the fun of the pre-rebalance without giving up too much of the post-rebalance enjoyable things.

SCH is utterly gutted. It's still my main healer, but I guess all my teams from here on out are just going to have to deal with me playing the worst healer and suck it up. I don't understand why we can't use Aetherflow or Dissipation outside of combat. SCH is the only class that is intentionally gimped going into combat. And on top of that the massive nerf to crit Adlo + Deployment Tactics. AND the nerf to Faerie skills. And taking away 65% of the DPS skills.

AST is extremely effective in its current state (I'd even go so far as to say Neutral Sect renders both SCH and WHM meaningless), but it's BORING. All the cards do exactly the same thing and the class now requires no real skill to play. And Divination is such a long cooldown that managing your card alignment doesn't even matter because you have an eternity to draw the correct types.

WHM thankfully was improved SLIGHTLY, though it's main issue of having constant overhealing (i.e. wasted cooldowns and mana) but also no mitigation is still present and extremely apparently in more difficult pulls. It really hasn't changed, though at least lilies aren't totally useless anymore. I guess. At least they didn't nerf anything on this class (not that they needed to).


I guess I'm going to be switching to AST because it is currently BY FAR the most effective healing class, but man, the class is so boring now. I used to actually have to engage with AST and think about what I was doing and plan my tarot card usage, but now I can heal while asleep. It used to be tons of fun and one of the "thinking man's" classes, similar to machinist or pre-nerf scholar.

I mean, if I wanted to turn off my brain I'd just be playing my RDM.

I think the reason that i'm enjoying my Ast on this expansion is not so much the skills or whatever healer role got. But that the expansion was put so well. That you just enjoy it if you don't rush. Idk really. I am having fun lol.

The farther I have gotten in Shadowbringers, the more I have been enjoying Sch. Sure I miss a few abilities that are gone and not being able to use aetherflow outside of combat, and it took some adjusting but it has been working fairly well for me. Still would like a few more things to do when the healing isn't needed.

70-73 was a bit rougher, but Recitation picks up a nice bit of the slack from the missing skills once get used to it. Then it kinda has been building from there. It picked up a bit more at 78 as the regen on Sacred Soil is very nice. I haven't hit 80 yet, but I have heard many like Seraph.

So far been starting dungeons with Recitation -> Exocog then adlo for the first pull. On later ones I try and save recitation for adlo. Then from there its just doing whats needed based on the fight/pull. Even been starting to find ways to sneak in a few extra bio's on the big pull now that have gotten more of the new tools.

Did Halatali hm as AST and did just fine with the tank pulling everything in the beginning. Honestly the new card system is more fun because the seals feel like fishing for all 3 Royal Road buffs instead of just the one. I've had no problems with healing output, MP or enmity in pre-ShB dungeons.

SCH feels easier to manage after the pet changes, although Bane was more fun than the new AoE. No problems with MP, healing or enmity.

Also didn't take long to get used to the combat requirements of the seals and Aetherflow.

A gil for my thoughts? You can have them for free.

Absolutely loving White Mage right now. It doesn't feel dissimilar to how it was, yet it is smoother - with more to consider/weave and no loss to our knack for making space to do other things.

Fluid Aura being bind-only - removes the knockback-annoyance and can give you a teeny bit of playmaking, even if just from a levelling or overworld perspective.
Asylum adding to heals on those within is infinitely better than what it was.
Indulgence pepping our heals rather than just being an unnecessary 'other AoE heal' for topping people - makes for some very powerful recovery on demand.
Wings - look cheesy as hell but the fact we can share a bit of mitigation and add even more healing potency is nice to have.
Benison - still a boss.
Afflatus - I will happily take this over AoE-Aero. Thanks to the new insta-heals and weaving recovery between Holy or whatever you're pressing, you can set up some nice (albeit short) burst windows on demand. Nothing quite like seeing 65k crits in plain Weathered gear as a Healer.
Holy - good god. Costs practically no MP. Doesn't hit nearly as hard but the spammability (coupled with plenty of ways to keep people alive in between) is just delicious.
Cure/CureII - CureI being slightly faster-casting @ 450 potency means it's a great top-up button for DPS (seeing as mostly everything else is a big overheal risk), meaning you won't feel bad for fishing for the odd proc. CureII is still a chunky replacement for any lack of lilies.
Assize - still a boss.
Glare - looks lovely (far less of an eyesore than all versions of stone) and still hits for a meaty amount.

As said before, WHM still feels like WHM of eld, yet there's more to consider and the package feels fuller and smoother without being all that much different. I had an absolute blast levelling to 80 and will remain a WHM main as I've always been.

I really love what they did for healers in terms of... having to actually heal, and I hope they go even further down this road in the long run. This is all I can say without going off-topic too much, because what they did to Astrologian(my main job in 4.x) I do not like one bit, and it made me switch over to DPS. I'll gladly heal for shorter roulette queue times though ^_^.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

A gil for my thoughts? You can have them for free.

Absolutely loving White Mage right now. It doesn't feel dissimilar to how it was, yet it is smoother - with more to consider/weave and no loss to our knack for making space to do other things.

Fluid Aura being bind-only - removes the knockback-annoyance and can give you a teeny bit of playmaking, even if just from a levelling or overworld perspective.
Asylum adding to heals on those within is infinitely better than what it was.
Indulgence pepping our heals rather than just being an unnecessary 'other AoE heal' for topping people - makes for some very powerful recovery on demand.
Wings - look cheesy as hell but the fact we can share a bit of mitigation and add even more healing potency is nice to have.
Benison - still a boss.
Afflatus - I will happily take this over AoE-Aero. Thanks to the new insta-heals and weaving recovery between Holy or whatever you're pressing, you can set up some nice (albeit short) burst windows on demand. Nothing quite like seeing 65k crits in plain Weathered gear as a Healer.
Holy - good god. Costs practically no MP. Doesn't hit nearly as hard but the spammability (coupled with plenty of ways to keep people alive in between) is just delicious.
Cure/CureII - CureI being slightly faster-casting @ 450 potency means it's a great top-up button for DPS (seeing as mostly everything else is a big overheal risk), meaning you won't feel bad for fishing for the odd proc. CureII is still a chunky replacement for any lack of lilies.
Assize - still a boss.
Glare - looks lovely (far less of an eyesore than all versions of stone) and still hits for a meaty amount.

As said before, WHM still feels like WHM of eld, yet there's more to consider and the package feels fuller and smoother without being all that much different. I had an absolute blast levelling to 80 and will remain a WHM main as I've always been.

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Doesn't it feel like WHM has a lot of redundant abilities now?

When it comes to effectiveness WHM sems best by far right now, with both healing and damage being through the roof. Can't say much whether it's fun to be spamming glare/holy or not, but in Trials and Dungeons WHM is a complete powerhouse.

Current AST was definitely very fun for me, getting it to max level.
Between new cards requiring constant maintenance, variety of healing CDs and those cooldowns actually being necessary (at times, with tanks still adjusting to changes) AST healing kit feels more complex than in SB.
Sadly all that complexity isn't rewarding. Buffs from cards are barely visible, Divination is boring by design and the amount of "useless" buttons we now have is silly. Celestial opposition with its potency is only a tiny step above being a waste of hotbar space. (RIP AoE stun, I still miss you) Collective Unconsciousness... the animation is still pretty, I guess? Also Noct sect is remains being a trap. Diurnal all the way.

Then you enter max level EX Trials and you realize that all your spells,(even the GCD heals) hit like wet noodle.
No matter how hard you try to time your Cards/Divination/Earthly Stars etc. properly - SCH and WHM do the job better and require less effort.

So yeah, I'm gonna go back to crying in the corner, using all my new shiny buttons to shield myself from reality.

The first time since I started playing ARR that I don't know which of the healers to play. Not because they are all so fun but because all are just so meh. I always switched between them, AST was my main but constantly played SCH and WHM too for pretty much all content. Now I switch between them and nothing sticks. Nothing stands out, nothing clicks with me. Maybe after 5+ years ONLY playing healers in FFXIV I am done with healing...

Finally got my SCH to 80 and it plays so well at that level, Summon Seraph is basically Rouse on steroids and it's so satisfying when you have it out. While I'll confess it took a hit on lower levels, I dont feel it's as bad as most people where making it out to be.

I'm positively in love with the way sch plays and flows now. Once they address some of the bugginess with the pet I think they'll be in a very good spot

Also for those of yall who cant find your fairy, if you go into your targeting options in character configuration and toggle off the disable pet toggling button.