Please Square do not turn Lyna into Lyse 2.0

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Originally Posted by Enla

But not all of them are good either, and given that she had first hand experience with said Tempered individuals and Lakshmi she would have a good idea that they would fall more on the Ifrit/Leviathan Tempered side than Ramuh. It's also made very clear by Ramuh that there is /no known way/ to save a tempered individual, a conversation Lyse was very much present for and that he couldn't stop the Sylphs from defending their perceived territory after they had been tempered. Had Lyse not been there with us for Lakshmi I could agree with your assessment, but she was there. She had first hand experience that Lakshmi is not like Ramuh and that her tempered are not peaceful if merely left alone - and that Lakshmi is very much keen on tempering outside of the Ananta. And the story also makes it very clear that most city-states do not tolerate Tempered to live, especially those from hostile primals. The Ifrit tempered you meet in the MSQ are all killed after that fight. Not a single one is spared because they CAN'T be. I think the only notable exception to this is Ga Bu, but he isn't a threat in his catatonic state and if I recall it's never implicitly said he was tempered. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, that part of the MSQ has been awhile for me.)


The reason I bring this up is because while the mistake might seem silly to hang over her head for a narrative that insists that Lyse makes mistakes and is learning something like that is /vital/. And frankly throughout the entirety of Stormblood nothing like that happens to her. Nothing that sticks at any rate beyond the five minutes it takes to even ponder the problem. Normally I wouldn't care, not everyone needs to follow in Alphinaud's footsteps and be defined by their mistakes and how they react to them. Not every character needs be cut from the same cloth. Except when everyone defending the character claims that she's learning from mistakes and the narrative is /telling/ us this without /showing/ us it in any way shape or form, then I will take issue with it. This was the perfect chance to actually SHOW what they were trying to do with Lyse and progress her character, but instead nothing is done with it and in the time we're gone to Doma she does all her growth off screen instead. It's bad writing for a character that frankly deserved better.

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The situation is not as cut and dry as I perceive people think it is. Specifically in the case of Lyse, the Ananta and Sri Lakshmi. After besting the primal, Lyse and Shanti have a back and forth:

Lyse: You did it again. You saved them. I just wish I could've been more help...
Lyse: So...it looks like the Ananta did have a mountain of crystals after all.
Like every other tribe. Gods, we're all such slaves to our weaknesses...
Shanti: You! You ssslew our Missstresss! She was our hope, our sssalvation!
Is there no end to your cruelty!?
Lyse: Listen to me, please! I know that you're only trying to protect yourselves because you feel frightened and alone...
Lyse: But that's how we all feel, don't you see? If we could just turn to each other for help instead of the gods, I'm sure we could find a way to live in peace!
Lyse: Your crystals are important to you, aren't they? Reflections of your souls, right? Well, you shouldn't have to sacrifice something so precious to a primal...
Shanti: Who are you to quessstion our choice? You who fight without fear? We wish only to live in peace, and if thisss be the price we must pay, then ssso be it!
Lyse: I know there's nothing I can say to convince you. But I hope that one day you look back and see we only ever wanted the same thing.
Shanti: Begone, damn you! Ssspare me your hollow words and leave me to mourn.
Lyse: I'll go...but it doesn't mean I'm giving up.
Lyse: Gyr Abania is our home too, and one way or another, we're going to have to learn to live together.
Lyse: Come on. Alphinaud and Alisaie are waiting.

The context for Lyse at the meeting is laid there and why Lyse has a reason to pause and think maybe there is hope. She appealed to Shanti before the meeting. Lyse hoped she might have gotten through.

I just wish I could remember the cutscene for the actual meeting so I could what was actually being said. I'm not even sure if it was confirmed they were tempered, or if assumptions were made because Lakshmi was summoned and yes, tempering did happen. My main point with the beast tribes were the city-states believed all of the beastmen were tempered. It was made plain that not all were. Also, key words from Ramuh - no known way. Not it's impossible to cure them. Something similar was said to killing Ascians. Lyse has been sparing people like Fordola. People only wanted to kill Fordola, Raubahn included. Crimes committed in times of war are a highly grey area.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Why would you even assume that she'll have a similar role? She wasn't important enough to get a bio in the last live letter, and all we've seen of her is that she's a Viis dancer that killed a Sin Eater and later punched the ground. She's had as much of a presence as Feo Ul.

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lyse is still better than adult minifillia and alisaie

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Originally Posted by gambanner

I personally liked Lyse, so I don't understand all the dislike towards her. But, to each there own.

However, I don't know who this "Lyna" person is. Could someone help? D=

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A Viis dancer. You see her a couple times in the launch trailer.

https://www.novacrystallis.com/wp-co...19/06/lyna.png

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

In the case of Fordola, her story is wrapped up in a Tales from the Storm story. But yeah, we don’t see her in game after 4.1.

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She didn't appear after in part because the JP fanbase apparently really hates her. It was mentioned in an interview a few months back.

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Originally Posted by guardin

lyse is still better than adult minifillia and alisaie

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Lyse is better because she has that awesome jacket. It's the BEST jacket in the game simply cause it doesn't have that stupid flap SE keeps trying to put on jackets like Squall's or the monk's AF for stormblood. Like WHY? It's like a turd hanging off the jacket ruining the designs. So Lyse's jacket is instantly the BEST. Tho I don't get the Mifillia hate. I feel like people hate on her simply for being an NPC.... like ALL of them make you run back and forth all thur ARR. So if anything hate ARR... but Mifillia wasn't posed to be a fighter anyway. She's a paper pusher. Least she knows her place unlike other NPCs who send you on a stupid goose chase for a party when they could've just told you the location of Titan. :/ NEVER letting that go.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

She is collared and forced to fight against primals with that summoner squad as a punishment / sentence for her crimes. Primals are still being summoned by the beastmen, but there are now other people within the confines of the game's universe that can handle them while player characters are allowed to advance the story. It's why we're not going back to the original city-states every month to put down the original three time and again. It's pretty concluded.

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That's not even a story. She's committed no crimes under Imperial Law, but she's sentenced by laws that haven't been enforced since before she was born. Ex post facto laws should have protected her. And then she's been enslaved by Ala Mhigo to fight primals. What kind of story is that? What's the message here? That Ala Mhigan are absolute monsters? That they're no better than the Empire? And then she's just left to rot in a cell? How is that a conclusion? Nothing has been followed through on this story, it's just a string of injustices left forgotten by the MSQ.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

If you ask me, Lyse and Fordola are so prominent in the poster because of what the characters are meant to stand for: Lyse the dreamer, fighting for her home against the hopelessness of the situation and the will to defy fate.
Fordola the survivor, betraying her birth country to live and survive, accepting the fate dealt to her.

The themes of these characters were echoed throughout all of Stormblood by minor and major characters alike.

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I never got the impression that Lyse was a dreamer. She bumbled through the liberation often times making it worse and driving the Ala Mhigans to despair. Throughout the story, nepotism grants her every single advantage while Fordola experienced anti-nepotism, cursed and punished for who her family was. Echo or not, these themes and stories have no conclusions. Lyse continues to flourish from nepotism, while Fordola continues to be punished for it and the story forgets this is happening and moves on to the Warriors of Darkness.

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Originally Posted by Insertcoins

Lyse is better because she has that awesome jacket. It's the BEST jacket in the game simply cause it doesn't have that stupid flap SE keeps trying to put on jackets like Squall's or the monk's AF for stormblood. Like WHY? It's like a turd hanging off the jacket ruining the designs. So Lyse's jacket is instantly the BEST. Tho I don't get the Mifillia hate. I feel like people hate on her simply for being an NPC.... like ALL of them make you run back and forth all thur ARR. So if anything hate ARR... but Mifillia wasn't posed to be a fighter anyway. She's a paper pusher. Least she knows her place unlike other NPCs who send you on a stupid goose chase for a party when they could've just told you the location of Titan. :/ NEVER letting that go.

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I think the hate for Minfillia is linked into a multitude of things...
A) Her voice was annoying
B) She kept calling you back to the chuffing waking sands which didn't have an atheryte and she didn't want one.
C) She was pretty much useless and was always a damsel in distress
D) She has this weird issue where she likes to stay put and linger at people even though you're in mortal danger because she can't get over herself.
E) Did I mention she's useless and has zero combat skills?
F) Stayed in the waking freaking sands so her catmom could find her.
G) They finally get rid of her, only to bring her back as an even more important NPC. Because for some reason her connection with mama crystal is stronger than yours and thus she has to become the mouthpiece ?????

Probably a lot more going on honestly. All I know already is that the Minfillia in Shadow Bringers isn't dead weight.

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Originally Posted by Edax

That's not even a story. She's committed no crimes under Imperial Law, but she's sentenced by laws that haven't been enforced since before she was born. Ex post facto laws should have protected her. And then she's been enslaved by Ala Mhigo to fight primals. What kind of story is that? What's the message here? That Ala Mhigan are absolute monsters? That they're no better than the Empire? And then she's just left to rot in a cell? How is that a conclusion? Nothing has been followed through on this story, it's just a string of injustices left forgotten by the MSQ.

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Yes, because under imperial law, murder of people not co-operating isn't a crime. Or starving people. Things you and I would certainly call crimes. You're purposely being contrary and looking at things from a one dimensional view.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I never got the impression that Lyse was a dreamer. She bumbled through the liberation often times making it worse and driving the Ala Mhigans to despair. Throughout the story, nepotism grants her every single advantage while Fordola experienced anti-nepotism, cursed and punished for who her family was. Echo or not, these themes and stories have no conclusions. Lyse continues to flourish from nepotism, while Fordola continues to be punished for it and the story forgets this is happening and moves on to the Warriors of Darkness.

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Her ideals and what she wants to do are what give the impression of a dreamer (see post above and her dialogue with Shanti - someone who is 'realistic' would just walk away or cut down Shanti outright). Yes, that is in part, the point. Fordola's family decided to throw their lot to the Garleans. I pointed this out with the two themes the characters embody, with Lyse and Fordola being complete opposites. She's also never been a leader before - she doesn't know what to do, but that doesn't dissuade her. I doubt you'd know how to suddenly lead an entire country with no government already in place.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

I think the hate for Minfillia is linked into a multitude of things...
A) Her voice was annoying
B) She kept calling you back to the chuffing waking sands which didn't have an atheryte and she didn't want one.
C) She was pretty much useless and was always a damsel in distress
D) She has this weird issue where she likes to stay put and linger at people even though you're in mortal danger because she can't get over herself.
E) Did I mention she's useless and has zero combat skills?
F) Stayed in the waking freaking sands so her catmom could find her.
G) They finally get rid of her, only to bring her back as an even more important NPC. Because for some reason her connection with mama crystal is stronger than yours and thus she has to become the mouthpiece ?????

Probably a lot more going on honestly. All I know already is that the Minfillia in Shadow Bringers isn't dead weight.

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EVERYONE VOICE is stupid in english. - MAYHAP MAYHAP MAAAAAAAAYHAAAAAAP. Square.... I'd like you to see these words.... Maybe, Perhaps etc etc. They ALL sound like some kids in a badly voice play instead of pros in voice acting. Play it in Japanese... EVERYONE sounds better.
2. Everyone.. and I mean EVERYONE calls youmaking you go to and from all in ARR... so she isn't the only one. Plus it wasn't up to her to get one of those... if she had one of those then her group would've been tied to Ul'dah... which is what they didn't want. So they couldn't get the Antherryte.... that's WHY they had to move in the first place.
3. She wasn't posed to be a fighter... she was a paper pusher... and hell are any of the NPCs worth their salt tho? If they were they wouldn't make me do ALL their work. All of them are quilty of beign useless. Cause we are the main character.
4. Moving was a big deal...but hey not everyone can just drop their home and move. But if you wanna blame her for that then lets go down the list... I seem to remember one guy who was stupid and got himself caught AND was a badguy for a bit of time, I also remember a female roe who got herself killed cause she was stupid and ran into battle knowing she was outclassed.. but sure.. lets blame the paper pusher with no combat skills being kidnapped by a super boss.
5.She's a paper pusher. What did you expect her to do? Cause whatever it is.. none of the other NPC's do it either.
6. you got me there.... miqo mom was random.
7. I can say that about EVERYONE at ARR.... SE made me think they all died only to bring them all back.. and they are still useless.

I'm not going to lie, Fordola was well written. She was a good character, but she was not a good person and I frankly hate her as a person. She's the poster child of broken dreams and 'I gave up'. And she only sits down and shuts up when she touches your 'mind' with the echo and realises you've gone through x100 more crap than she has and didn't end up selling out as she did. But yeah, I love the fact I'm repulsed by Fordola. She's so god damn dislikeable. The fact she wasn't straight up killed and was given some form of redemption arc bothers me so much.

I really hope in Shadow Bringers we can stop with the 'Oh, you must be redeemed' bull.

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Originally Posted by Insertcoins

EVERYONE VOICE is stupid in english. - MAYHAP MAYHAP MAAAAAAAAYHAAAAAAP. Square.... I'd like you to see these words.... Maybe, Perhaps etc etc. They ALL sound like some kids in a badly voice play instead of pros in voice acting. Play it in Japanese... EVERYONE sounds better.
2. Everyone.. and I mean EVERYONE calls youmaking you go to and from all in ARR... so she isn't the only one.
3. She wasn't posed to be a fighter... she was a paper pusher... and hell are any of the NPCs worth their salt tho? If they were they wouldn't make me do ALL their work. All of them are quilty of beign useless. Cause we are the main character.
4. Moving was a big deal...but hey not everyone can just drop their home and move. But if you wanna blame her for that then lets go down the list... I seem to remember one guy who was stupid and got himself caught AND was a badguy for a bit of time, I also remember a female roe who got herself killed cause she was stupid and ran into battle knowing she was outclassed.. but sure.. lets blame the paper pusher with no combat skills being kidnapped by a super boss.
5.She's a paper pusher. What did you expect her to do? Cause whatever it is.. none of the other NPC's do it either.
6. you got me there.... miqo mom was random.
7. I can say that about EVERYONE at ARR.... SE made me think they all died only to bring them all back.. and they are still useless.

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I mean, think about it. She's the only Scion that isn't combat trained. The ONLY one. Even Krile and Moenbreyda and 'Throwback the gates' cat man are combat trained. All of the rest of them can fight. All of them barring Tataru, and even she is more likeable and actually tried to learn how to fight and to not to be dead weight! Minfillia doesn't even try, she's just dead weight. She just sits there and ponders. And for a pencil pusher I've not once seen her write or handle papers - Tataru does that. Minfillia just stares at broken staff and ponders. To the point that Alphy, a 16 year old lad can fill her boots and more - thus he was suggested to take over. And he could fight! No, the only skill we know that Minfillia has is that she also has the echo 'big whoop' - and can mine. That's it.

So we have a pencil pusher, who's literally telling the strongest and smartest people in the realm what to do - and even then she hardly does that! And she does a terrible job at it!

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

The fact she wasn't straight up killed and was given some form of redemption arc bothers me so much.

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That's the point of Lyse. People who think others aren't inherently bad because they did bad things in a messed up situation. Remember, prison is supposed to be rehabilitation. When given the choice and talking with Raubahn, who wanted to kill Fordola and you say you'd spare her, he comments that your justice is a merciful one.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

I'm not going to lie, Fordola was well written. She was a good character, but she was not a good person and I frankly hate her as a person. She's the poster child of broken dreams and 'I gave up'. And she only sits down and shuts up when she touches your 'mind' with the echo and realises you've gone through x100 more crap than she has and didn't end up selling out as she did. But yeah, I love the fact I'm repulsed by Fordola. She's so god damn dislikeable. The fact she wasn't straight up killed and was given some form of redemption arc bothers me so much.

I really hope in Shadow Bringers we can stop with the 'Oh, you must be redeemed' bull.



I mean, think about it. She's the only Scion that isn't combat trained. The ONLY one. All of the rest of them can fight. All of them barring Tataru, and even she is more likeable and actually tried to fight not to be dead weight! Minfillia doesn't even try, she's just dead weight. To the point that Alphy, a 16 year old lad can fill her boots and more - thus he was suggested to take over. And he could fight!

So we have a pencil pusher, who's literally telling the strongest and smartest people in the realm what to do - and even then she hardly does that! And she does a terrible job at it!

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And they all still tell us what to do and where to go. Tatura is no better... what? She gets a pass cause she ran into a fight and screamed for help instead of knowing her place? PFFFT. I'm not having it. Again... I feel like people are just hating to hate... literally all of the NPCs are gulity yet Min gets all the hate? I don't understand people. Them knowing how to fight is no excuse when they still tell me what to do... all of them are worthless to me... nothing gets done unless I the WOL does it. Which to me means all of them are braindead.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

That's the point of Lyse. People who think others aren't inherently bad because they did bad things in a messed up situation. Remember, prison is supposed to be rehabilitation. When given the choice and talking with Raubahn, who wanted to kill Fordola and you say you'd spare her, he comments that your justice is a merciful one.

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Aye, it just bothers me so much. Honestly, why ask for my input game if you're just going to ignore it. I just hate redemption arcs when the person is beyond redemption in my eyes. But damn her character is well done.

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Originally Posted by Insertcoins

And they all still tell us what to do and where to go. Tatura is no better... what? She gets a pass cause she ran into a fight and screamed for help instead of knowing her place? PFFFT. I'm not having it. Again... I feel like people are just hating to hate... literally all of the NPCs are gulity yet Min gets all the hate? I don't understand people. Them knowing how to fight is no excuse when they still tell me what to do... all of them are worthless to me... nothing gets done unless I the WOL does it. Which to me means all of them are braindead.

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Oh don't worry, I hate most of the NPCs who can't do crap all without WoL holding their hands. Do you like Minfillia? Good for you. I'd rather have a paperweight in my party. It'd be more useful to me and irritate me less - in my opinion~ As long as the 'little one' doesn't;-
a) follow me around as if I'm her parent and she has undying love.
b) developing a crush on my character
c) making me report to 'insert location through bluetooth device every other quest'

- I'm all good.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

Aye, it just bothers me so much. Honestly, why ask for my input game if you're just going to ignore it. I just hate redemption arcs when the person is beyond redemption in my eyes. But damn her character is well done.



Oh don't worry, I hate most of the NPCs who can't do crap all without WoL holding their hands. Do you like Minfillia? Good for you. I'd rather have a paperweight in my party. It'd be more useful to me and irritate me less - in my opinion~

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It's not about me liking her or not.. I just find the hate stupid. Cause literally all of the NPCs are just as bad. There's some good ones but all the complaining about Min can be explained... like the waking sands one.... that's actually a plot point they address in the story. Everything else everyone else is gulity of, so singling out one character when all of them are pretty much the same is crazy to me... and no.. I'm NEVER letting this go. Yes.. that's the hill I'm dying on apparently.

I just hate injustice.

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Originally Posted by Insertcoins

It's not about me liking her or not.. I just find the hate stupid. Cause literally all of the NPCs are just as bad. There's some good ones but all the complaining about Min can be explained... like the waking sands one.... that's actually a plot point they address in the story. Everything else everyone else is gulity of, so singling out one character when all of them are pretty much the same is crazy to me... and no.. I'm NEVER lettign this go. Yes.. that's the hill I'm dying on apparently.

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It's okay, you can die on that hill if you want to. I'll have minfillia arrange for some flowers to be sent.

Anyway - probably because she's a main NPC and she does it more than most. I don't know what you want me to say. 'I dislike this person more than the rest because she's the only one during the dreadful story of ARR that has not yet been pushed back into my subconcious after therapy?' She's simply more memorable.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

Aye, it just bothers me so much. Honestly, why ask for my input game if you're just going to ignore it. I just hate redemption arcs when the person is beyond redemption in my eyes. But damn her character is well done.

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It'd honestly bother me more if my fellows peers within the story didn't ask me at all what I thought about anything. I can forgive / suspend choice for the context of the game (IE: I can look past the linear hallways in FFs because it keeps you on the path of the story), but been little more than a silent hero (I personally hate Link) is something that irks me.

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Originally Posted by Insertcoins

It's not about me liking her or not.. I just find the hate stupid. Cause literally all of the NPCs are just as bad. There's some good ones but all the complaining about Min can be explained... like the waking sands one.... that's actually a plot point they address in the story. Everything else everyone else is gulity of, so singling out one character when all of them are pretty much the same is crazy to me... and no.. I'm NEVER letting this go. Yes.. that's the hill I'm dying on apparently.

I just hate injustice.

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Yes, I'll die on that hill with you. It's almost like they are NPCs meant to support a player character.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

It's okay, you can die on that hill if you want to. I'll have minfillia arrange for some flowers to be sent.

Anyway - probably because she's a main NPC and she does it more than most. I don't know what you want me to say. 'I dislike this person more than the rest because she's the only one during the dreadful story of ARR that has not yet been pushed back into my subconcious after therapy?' She's simply more memorable.

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I have more issue with everyone else being kidnapped since they can fight... Least Minfillia has an excuse... everyone else gets caught, kidnapped, taken etc etc all the time. Yet they can fight.. in my eyes it makes everyone else more useless.... like how you gonna get caught and you fight? But I guess that's me.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Yes, because under imperial law, murder of people not co-operating isn't a crime. Or starving people. Things you and I would certainly call crimes. You're purposely being contrary and looking at things from a one dimensional view.

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Your the one that doesn't seem to understand how justice works. Ex post facto exists in the modern world because it protects people who did not commit any crimes under the current laws by not letting new laws retroactively punish people's actions in the past. If Ala Mhigo was run by Ala Mhigans, then very likely Fordola would likely have not committed any Ala Mhigan crimes. That is the reality of the situation. The Ala Mhigans committed murder during their riot against her family which would certainly be called crimes but they were never punished by either Imperial or Ala Mhigan laws. This story isn't finished and your looking at this as a one-dimensional "she killed people, therefore she deserves punishment" kind of judgement which is not how justice works. They all have blood on their hands and only one person is being punished for it.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

She's also never been a leader before - she doesn't know what to do, but that doesn't dissuade her. I doubt you'd know how to suddenly lead an entire country with no government already in place.

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If I was ever offered the leadership of an entire country at war because of who my family was, I would very sensibly turn them down. I would not selfishly take power. So I would most certainly know how to lead an entire country better then Lyse because I reject nepotism.

My personal issue with Lyse's character is her childishness. I appreciate that she was supposed to be the shielded young person (first guided and protected by Yda, then by Papalymo) being thrust into the role of a leader and having to bear the responsibilities which come with it, but in my own opinion, it was overdone.
Perhaps it was the combination of the voice acting and the writing that did it for me, but she always seemed to be complaining about something or other. She seemed over emotional; letting her own emotions and desires cloud her judgement and, although she was being progressively less led throughout, she was still heavily guided by Raubahn and advised by Hien. Zenos' defeat sums it up best: The WoL risks their life defeating both Zenos and Shinryu (a feat considered almost impossible, even more so given that they had lost to Zenos alone twice previously) and the first thing Lyse does is sulk about him taking his own life preventing her reproaching him more! It is clear that Alphinaud is also somewhat disappointed with the outcome, but he keeps it to himself and refrains from saying anything. In contrast, Lyse openly complains about how the outcome wasn't perfect and doesn't stop until Hien and Raubahn remind her that it is still a significant win for the resistance.

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

I don’t think Lyse’s main role of import was to be a battle strategist. That was 100% Rauban and is acknowledged in-game. What she is shown to be good at is rallying people, creating alliances, and inspiring support. Also punching things but I mean a lot of characters in FFXIV can punch things. Lyse is kind of interesting to me because she works best in a diplomatic function.

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Although in a few cases she did show some aptitude (the most memorable example being her beginning the discussions around Ala Mhigo's future, in which even Alphinaud applauded her speech), there were also numerous cases in which she handled such matters very poorly. When large groups of protesters appear calling for Fordola's execution, Lyse has no handle on the situation whatsoever, with her sole response is simply: 'But then we would be no better than them'. Ultimately, it is Raubahn who is able to disperse the crowd with another of his speeches, not Lyse.

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Originally Posted by Insertcoins

I have more issue with everyone else being kidnapped since they can fight... Least Minfillia has an excuse... everyone else gets caught, kidnapped, taken etc etc all the time. Yet they can fight.. in my eyes it makes everyone else more useless.... like how you gonna get caught and you fight? But I guess that's me.

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Whether or not they can fight is pretty irrelevant anyway, because the inherent power of the WoL's Echo is basically unmatched by anyone that's not an Ascian. I doubt Moenbryda or Ysayle or whoever would have been able to fight off Livia's raid or Nabriales.

I actually wonder what the response would have been if Minfilia's work had been on-camera: cutscenes dedicated entirely to her reading and responding to diplomatic messages, assigning tasks to Arenvald and the Boulder brothers, etc.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

I actually wonder what the response would have been if Minfilia's work had been on-camera: cutscenes dedicated entirely to her reading and responding to diplomatic messages, assigning tasks to Arenvald and the Boulder brothers, etc.

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The response would have been more favorable. It always helps to add character development using good writing. She was poorly handled by the devs which is why the players developed negative opinions about her. This was clearly not intentional by the devs.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Yes, I'll die on that hill with you. It's almost like they are NPCs meant to support a player character.

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Originally Posted by Insertcoins

I have more issue with everyone else being kidnapped since they can fight... Least Minfillia has an excuse... everyone else gets caught, kidnapped, taken etc etc all the time. Yet they can fight.. in my eyes it makes everyone else more useless.... like how you gonna get caught and you fight? But I guess that's me.

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Honestly not sure what the issue is? xD Do you want me to defend my reasons why I don't like her or what? I just don't like her, I've stated why. I don't like Minfillia as a person all around and I don't think she deserves the rank. If you like her, that's fine. I find her annoying rather than endearing. Support character or no. There's plenty of others I don't like either - she's simply the first one that springs to my mind first and foremost. I find her personality bland, I find her story to be also bland - if she was more 'active' I'd like her, and I have a feeling I'd like 'Mini-fillia' more than ARR Minfillia due to a myriad of reasons.

tldr; I don't think she's well written and I wasn't shown nearly enough to respect her for the power she had. I personally didn't see anything glaring that had it down as 'this person deserves this role.'
It's not that deep.

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From the brief clips I've seen of Lyna she seems very much involved in fighting the Sin Eaters and what not... and gets easily frustrated. I hope she's well written, I really want to like her.

O_o well...this Thread turned into a NPC hate thread, to the point as far as I can tell people were more arguing/discussing about how they should hate an NPC

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Originally Posted by Rayo

O_o well...this Thread turned into a NPC hate thread, to the point as far as I can tell people were more arguing/discussing about how they should hate an NPC

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I mean... it was already one to begin with.

I liked Lyse a lot. She was made the leader of the Resistance because she could see the dream of the Ala Mhigo that could be. And she could inspire others to dream it. She wasn't a military leader. They had Raubahn for that. She was the person who could inspire others and didn't work in diplomatic double-talk, but was honest, open, and straightforward. Her conviction was infectious.

Much as I like Hien, he was a set up. His people wouldn't fight until they knew he was alive. He could still inspire, but it was much more of a respect to the lord they loved situation. Lyse's strength is that she really isn't anything to these people, but they follow her because she makes herself someone to be followed and, more importantly, gives them something to follow her for.

She's also not the leader of Ala Mhigo. She helps the various community leaders set up a provisional government. They are all done with monarchs or single leaders. And IIRC from watching this recently when finishing SB with my hubby on an alt, she says "They decided" on the provisional government, making clear her position as advisor and mediator more than anything like a leadership role.

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Originally Posted by Insertcoins

And they all still tell us what to do and where to go. Tatura is no better... what? She gets a pass cause she ran into a fight and screamed for help instead of knowing her place? PFFFT. I'm not having it. Again... I feel like people are just hating to hate... literally all of the NPCs are gulity yet Min gets all the hate? I don't understand people. Them knowing how to fight is no excuse when they still tell me what to do... all of them are worthless to me... nothing gets done unless I the WOL does it. Which to me means all of them are braindead.

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This is one of the reasons I absolutely love the first DRK storyline because you actually get to express your frustrations at the uselessness of those around you through Fray. I've wanted to punch almost every member of the Scions at least once for making me run all over Hydaelyn for their benefit. Maybe not Papalymo though, he seems like good people.

If anything I think she'll be the new M'naago.

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Originally Posted by Joven

This is one of the reasons I absolutely love the first DRK storyline because you actually get to express your frustrations at the uselessness of those around you through Fray. I've wanted to punch almost every member of the Scions at least once for making me run all over Hydaelyn for their benefit. Maybe not Papalymo though, he seems like good people.

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Yeah, I'm pretty excited to have a chat with Fray in the 5.0 job quest again. As for Papalymo, he may have been the single #bestpotato we've met in Eorzea... which might not be saying much since most we meet are always schemers, backstabbers, or outright evil.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Your the one that doesn't seem to understand how justice works. Ex post facto exists in the modern world because it protects people who did not commit any crimes under the current laws by not letting new laws retroactively punish people's actions in the past. If Ala Mhigo was run by Ala Mhigans, then very likely Fordola would likely have not committed any Ala Mhigan crimes. That is the reality of the situation. The Ala Mhigans committed murder during their riot against her family which would certainly be called crimes but they were never punished by either Imperial or Ala Mhigan laws. This story isn't finished and your looking at this as a one-dimensional "she killed people, therefore she deserves punishment" kind of judgement which is not how justice works. They all have blood on their hands and only one person is being punished for it.

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Exo post facto doesn't deal with international / country / outside invasion. I'm pretty sure murder is still illegal within the empire and its territories. However, they turn a blind eye to crimes committed because they don't care about the normal riff-raff. They don't care about the non-Garleans.

Justice =/= law. They are not mutually exclusive.

Fordola committed war crimes, not crimes subjected to one particular place's laws.

I'm also speaking of morality, not laws (hence my 'things you and I would certainly call crimes').

Fordola chose to fight for an empire that wants to subjugate everyone under their rule and kill those that choose not to. At best, she has questionable morals.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

Honestly not sure what the issue is? xD Do you want me to defend my reasons why I don't like her or what? I just don't like her, I've stated why.

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No, I don't expect reasons to be defended. You can hate someone because you hate them. My point to others for saying I hate [Lyse] because of [reasons] when those same reasons can be applied to pretty much all of the NPCs of the FFXIV story. None of them would be anywhere without the Warrior of Light. A lot of the NPCs are handed positions because of who they know or were born to. It's not just limited to Lyse. You just don't like Lyse (this is a universal 'you') so just say it or realize it for what it is lol.

So this is a thread to potentially complain about something unknown that will not change as it's released in three days.
Did I get that right?

I can't wait to get to Friday and see the Forums calm down, are actually complain based on something real.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

If anything I think she'll be the new M'naago.



Yeah, I'm pretty excited to have a chat with Fray in the 5.0 job quest again. As for Papalymo, he may have been the single #bestpotato we've met in Eorzea... which might not be saying much since most we meet are always schemers, backstabbers, or outright evil.

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I would say the title of #bestpotato is in a possible three way tie between Papalymo, Nanamo and Pipin.

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Originally Posted by Rayo

O_o well...this Thread turned into a NPC hate thread, to the point as far as I can tell people were more arguing/discussing about how they should hate an NPC

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Honestly hating fictional characters is kind of weird to me.

Like non-final fantasy context, there have been a couple characters who destroyed all other characterization in nonsense ways that couldn't be ignored or rationalized. I've hated a few of those, but a fun kind of hate if that makes sense. The kind of hate where you shake your fist and curse their name when they appear.

But I mean... anything short of that, I can understand mild dislike or thinking potential's not being met. A little frustration. Hate just seems bizarre strong imo.

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

Honestly hating fictional characters is kind of weird to me.

Like non-final fantasy context, there have been a couple characters who destroyed all other characterization in nonsense ways that couldn't be ignored or rationalized. I've hated a few of those, but a fun kind of hate if that makes sense. The kind of hate where you shake your fist and curse their name when they appear.

But I mean... anything short of that, I can understand mild dislike or thinking potential's not being met. A little frustration. Hate just seems bizarre strong imo.

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People can feel any myriad of emotions towards fictional characters: from love and adoration to hate and disgust. There have been books I've read where a character I fall in love with gets killed off and I can't even look at the thing for a while. On the other hand, there are also characters I despise with the fire of a thousand suns and feel vindicated if they meet a sticky end. Some people get emotionally involved in fiction, and there's nothing inherently wrong about that. Some of us just have stronger emotional reactions to things.

Personally, the only Scion I'm a fan of is Alisaie; though I recognize that Alphinaud had amazing character growth in HW's story. The others I am not particularly attached to. I share the disdain for Minfillia, and I still don't think Lyse was a huge, pivotal character in this expansion. And her Japanese voice honestly annoyed the crap out of me lol. Fordola could have been handled better; but JP did not like her, so that's why she was wrapped up off-screen, I'm sure. I was actually pleased with Yotsuyu's end: they didn't attempt to redeem her; they didn't fall into a stupid amnesia trope - it was honestly handled really well. Enough so that I still felt sympathy for "Tsuyu" while hating "Yotsuyu".

At least no one replaces Asahi at the top of my list of People Whose Face I Want To Punch In. Not even Lyse.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

So this is a thread to potentially complain about something unknown that will not change as it's released in three days.
Did I get that right?

I can't wait to get to Friday and see the Forums calm down, are actually complain based on something real.

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Welcome to nearly every thread from the past month.

Actually Lyse despite them showcasing her in the Stormblood trailer and all that she really did not have much screentime.
Do not get me wrong i like Lyse but she kind of felt useless tbh. But she looked pretty in a outfit i guess? :)
Yda did far more
** This is all just my opinion however

I think square tried to do the same character arc they did on Alphinaud as on Lyse but didn't fully grasp on how to do it. People who are saying that Lyse didn't take center stage, she did. She was more than just a companion, she was the narrator as we entered different zones. We get her thought and feelings which are often a jumble mess and lukewarm at best. It also did not work as well as Count Fortemps with Heavensward because the man does not focus on his feelings as we began a new zone. His instead was usually flowery language that we can interprupt a certain way. With Lyse, she decides what we felt from each area. Its an adventure of her trying to learn how to be a leader through growth which is similar to Alphinaud. The thing is she doesn't grow like Alphinaud and it came out flat as she more or less stayed the same. His actions had consequences with the Crystal Braves, and I even remember Estinien calling him out for sending us willy nilly to kill primals. He becomes ashamed and tries to do better. And Alphinaud does. She wants to learn to be a better leader. Okay well here is Hien, what did you learn? Absolutely nothing and she's still idealistic as ever. I don't know what they could have done for Lyse to make her better, but I don't think the writers did either. The reason Alphinaud worked much better in Heavensward is because he went from ordering us around to both of us supporting each other in the final fight to save Estinien. Lyse is here for the ride as she flails about from place to place. Alphinaud was there to make decisions and work with our character to find a solution. Our relaitonship with Alphinaud was dynamic while Lyse was passive. I'd argue that we had a more dynamic relationship with Rabauhn and Hien. That passiveness is why people say they can remove Lyse and the story doesn't change. Which is truthful.

So, I do agree with OP don't do what you did with Lyse. Whoever Lyna is, I want her to be more involved in the story and not be a side character that doesn't really amount to anything. Make her matter. Make her thoughts, feelings, and actions matter.

As long as she actually does something and is fitting for the role, I don't really care. Then again, that'd make her not Lyse imo.

It's so weird that Raubahn wasn't in center stage imo. He's already one hell of a fighter and military-strategist, and he's dealt with cutthroat politics with the syndicate. It seemed Lyse was just given importance because she was a scion.

idk, I liked everything in Doma a lot more this expansion.

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Originally Posted by Joven

I would say the title of #bestpotato is in a possible three way tie between Papalymo, Nanamo and Pipin.

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Papashan: ...Am I a joke to you?

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Originally Posted by DemonicNeko

...Becoming the leader of the resistance because her daddy was a good man...

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In a lot of cultures, legacy is something.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

People can feel any myriad of emotions towards fictional characters: from love and adoration to hate and disgust. There have been books I've read where a character I fall in love with gets killed off and I can't even look at the thing for a while. On the other hand, there are also characters I despise with the fire of a thousand suns and feel vindicated if they meet a sticky end. Some people get emotionally involved in fiction, and there's nothing inherently wrong about that. Some of us just have stronger emotional reactions to things.

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Maybe it’s weird to me because I’m a writer and villain fan? There are characters who I’ve looked at and just been like X NEEDS A KILLIN’ but I can still find other stuff they do funny or endearing. It doesn’t mean they don’t need a killin’ or aren’t legitimately horrifying to me, I just compartmentalize. Since it is fiction it’s easier to do for me.

Using Asahi as an example, I actually laughed at him a few times 1) because his yandere crush on Zenos is ridiculous and it is so clear in the cutscene where the miscommunication happened leading to it 2) his faces omfg. Who the hell makes faces like that? What is the little weirdo even doing? But at the same time as all that I can also find him legitimately horrific in how he treats Yotsuyuu and uses people overall.

Similarly, if I understand how and why a character works and the execution reads honest I generally don’t have an issue with them. I’ve been truly pissed at characters who were supposed to be heroes being deeply cruel or even sadistic without it ever being addressed as messed up in-narrative. That feels like a betrayal and it feels like lying. But I don’t think the FFXIV characters are guilty of that, so for me they’re fine. Alphinaud approaches in a minor way for me by being insensitive and self-absorbed at a point, but he gets better and is also a teenager. Teens are like that. So I cut him some slack.

Maybe I intellectualize it since again, writer. “Would I personally want to be buddies with this character” usually doesn’t come up as much for me.

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

Maybe it’s weird to me because I’m a writer and villain fan? There are characters who I’ve looked at and just been like X NEEDS A KILLIN’ but I can still find other stuff they do funny or endearing. It doesn’t mean they don’t need a killin’ or aren’t legitimately horrifying to me, I just compartmentalizations. Since it is fiction it’s easier to do for me.

Using Asahi as an example, I actually laughed at him a few times 1) because his yandere crush on Zenos is ridiculous and it is so clear in the cutscene where the miscommunication happened leading to it 2) his faces omfg. Who the hell makes faces like that? What is the little weirdo even doing? But at the same time as all that I can also find him legitimately horrific in how he treats Yotsuyuu and uses people overall.

Similarly, if I understand how and why a character works and the execution reads honest I generally don’t have an issue with them. I’ve been honestly pissed at characters who were supposed to be heroes being deeply cruel or even sadistic without it ever being addressed as messed up in-narrative. That feels like a betrayal and it feels like lying. But I don’t think the FFXIV characters are guilty of that, so for me they’re fine. Alphinaud approaches in a minor way for me by being insensitive and self-absorbed at a point, but he gets better and is also a teenager. Teens are like that. So I cut him some slack.

Maybe I intellectualize it since again, writer. “Would I personally want to be buddies with this character” usually doesn’t come up as much for me.

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I agree with Hyo because I'm a writer and an artist. It actually makes me mad they can get so much wrong because of it.. - points to Zenos.- His first fight with us had so much promise but fails cause SE couldn't push the letter and have him in plot kill us.. making him a joke afterwards completely in my opinion. He's literally in plot just a level wall.

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Originally Posted by LLSmoothJ

Papashan: ...Am I a joke to you?

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Ack! Forgot about him......