QOL change for War for ShB - Onslaught - No not asking for removal of gauge cost

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Originally Posted by Lyth

So perhaps what you should really be asking is for them to buff Fell Cleave. But maybe, just maybe, it might be a nice thing to support the other tanks in getting their issues fixed, instead of demanding buffs on a complete non-issue for a job that is grossly overpowered to begin with. And hey, I even did your math for you so that you don't have to.

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Please, I've been nothing but supportive of the other tanks getting their "half fixes"

Edit: Conceding until I can verify for myself by comparing multiple rotations.

Lyth, you completely ignored inner chaos from you calc on gauge value. Every FC we do lowers infuriate by 5 sec. Every 11 FCs gives you a free inner chaos that replaces and FC (timer is functionally 55 sec since chaos reduces it by 5).

avg GCD potency of 1,2,3 combo:
283.333

FC potency:
520-293.33=226.67

Chaos potency
900-520=380 potency over FC.

380/11=34.54 This is the potency the 5 sec reduction from using FC gives as 11 FCs give 1 Chaos that replaces an FC. Add to FC potency:

226.67+34.54=261.2

10 gauge dps=
261.2/5=52.24

Therefore 20 gauge=104.48. Onslaught looks pretty good right? Sidegrade action for mobility.

But the catch is Chaos Crit/Direct hit which about doubles it to 1800 potency. Obviously FC will have some level of base crit to up the potency and there are party buffs and such to increase that, but for simplicity lets just double the potency and see where it lands.

Chaos potency
1800-520=1280 potency over FC.

1280/11=116.36 This is the potency the 5 sec reduction from using FC gives as 11 FCs give 1 Chaos that replaces an FC. Add to FC potency:

226.67+116.36=343.0303

10 gauge dps=
343.03/5=68.61

20 gauge=137.03

Its not nearly as extreme as some have suggested, but thats also why I mentioned that im not terribly worried about it. The old one had additional uses with the enmity and niche in unchained, and those no longer exist, but the addition of arms length also means we wont need it as often as before. Its a QoL item, but it would still be nice to tweak, as are all QoL items.

But I'll take you up on the higher FC damage. Also of note, we may have already won that anyway. The Japanese tool tip for FC has 580 instead of the english 520. TLDR: tooltips are in flux and all of this may be completely wrong anyway. Sweating the fine details now is a bit of a waste imo. We wont know the actual status of onslaught until things go live because its value is entirely relative to the potency of gauge and that is up for grabs right now.

Re-read that post again. I explicitly stated "The only times that you won't want to use Onslaught are when it costs you a usage of Inner Chaos (which is going to be tied to your Infuriate uses anyways), or if it costs you a use of Upheaval (maybe don't do that)."

The gauge from IC always tied to Infuriate. There are no "natural" ICs. So you can temporarily borrow from this gauge and use it on something else (incurring a loss if you aren't able to pay it back in time), but you're meant to spend that gauge on IC before Nascant Chaos runs out.

So no, I don't need to do the math on something so obvious. Onslaught on average is small gain over natural FCs. Gauge from Infuriate should go towards IC. All the potency numbers seem to be adjusted to make gameplay more forgiving now, so long as you remember to hit your combo. Fell Cleave is really just there to prevent overflow gauge. You can try to min max an extra 10-20 potency if you like by messing around with Onslaught, but remember that your standard combo is 293 potency per GCD on average. You'll see even less variation between "good" and "average" this time around.

You dont 'borrow' gauge to use Onslaught because you are never getting that gauge back. The next 20 gauge you get could have put you at 40. If you use it on onslaught its gone.

Yes. You are correct IC is always tied to infuriate. How you fail to see that FCs give you infuriate is a little strange.

Chaos is created by infuriate. Infuriate is sped by FCs. FCs cost gauge. Onslaught costs gauge. They are all inexorably linked. Spending gauge on onslaught directly links to how many Chaos you get. You want to dissociate that to make your numbers look better, be my guest, but ignoring math just makes you wrong.

Ironically, you are the one talking about min maxing for 20 potency since you insist on focusing on the EXACT gcd that is being replaced. I am simply talking about the average. If you are fighting a dummy and use onslaught, what happens. If you are NOT min maxing because you know the fight so well that you can predict the GCD you will end the fight with and how much gauge you will have when a fight ends, my calculation holds water. You want to talk about ending a fight on a heavy swing or another gcd. The average simply shows what the skill is actually worth.

And again, all this is entirely dependant on the value of gauge which is already uncertain as different languages have different potencies for all classes and actions including the crux of war, FC.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Re-read that post again. I explicitly stated "The only times that you won't want to use Onslaught are when it costs you a usage of Inner Chaos (which is going to be tied to your Infuriate uses anyways), or if it costs you a use of Upheaval (maybe don't do that)."

The gauge from IC always tied to Infuriate. There are no "natural" ICs. So you can temporarily borrow from this gauge and use it on something else (incurring a loss if you aren't able to pay it back in time), but you're meant to spend that gauge on IC before Nascant Chaos runs out.

So no, I don't need to do the math on something so obvious. Onslaught on average is small gain over natural FCs. Gauge from Infuriate should go towards IC. All the potency numbers seem to be adjusted to make gameplay more forgiving now, so long as you remember to hit your combo. Fell Cleave is really just there to prevent overflow gauge. You can try to min max an extra 10-20 potency if you like by messing around with Onslaught, but remember that your standard combo is 293 potency per GCD on average. You'll see even less variation between "good" and "average" this time around.

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You can't really "borrow" gauge to use on Onslaught. Because the value here is really time - the 5 second decrease to Infuriate which translates to more Inner Chaos. And that time is just gone if you don't use the rage for a FC and use Onslaught instead. There is no borrowing...

At any rate, we'll see what happens.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

You dont 'borrow' gauge to use Onslaught because you are never getting that gauge back. The next 20 gauge you get could have put you at 40. If you use it on onslaught its gone.

Yes. You are correct IC is always tied to infuriate. How you fail to see that FCs give you infuriate is a little strange.

Chaos is created by infuriate. Infuriate is sped by FCs. FCs cost gauge. Onslaught costs gauge. They are all inexorably linked. Spending gauge on onslaught directly links to how many Chaos you get. You want to dissociate that to make your numbers look better, be my guest, but ignoring math just makes you wrong.

Ironically, you are the one talking about min maxing for 20 potency since you insist on focusing on the EXACT gcd that is being replaced. I am simply talking about the average. If you are fighting a dummy and use onslaught, what happens. If you are NOT min maxing because you know the fight so well that you can predict the GCD you will end the fight with and how much gauge you will have when a fight ends, my calculation holds water. You want to talk about ending a fight on a heavy swing or another gcd. The average simply shows what the skill is actually worth.

And again, all this is entirely dependant on the value of gauge which is already uncertain as different languages have different potencies for all classes and actions including the crux of war, FC.

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Thanks Izsha for the computations and clarifications.

It's a gap closer, you don't need it to pull, but when bosses or mobs hop across the arena for various things or when you need to step out of point-blank AoEs and dive back in, Onslaught becomes a useful TOOL.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

It's a gap closer, you don't need it to pull, but when bosses or mobs hop across the arena for various things or when you need to step out of point-blank AoEs and dive back in, Onslaught becomes a useful TOOL.

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I realize that. But it just feels better if it was on the charge system. Which is why I said it was a QOL suggestion.

Nice pic btw. Made me rethink my rage post. Guess there's no point getting mad at people being jerks on the internet. Like what's new? Better to just report it.

Given how short the recast is on Onslaught is, I don't think that storing charges would do anything other than make the IR window more powerful.

It was an entertaining post, though.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

You can try to min max an extra 10-20 potency if you like by messing around with Onslaught, but remember that your standard combo is 293 potency per GCD on average. You'll see even less variation between "good" and "average" this time around.

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The fact that we'd even have to jump through such hoops to make a point one way or the other is indicative of the problem itself.

Meanwhile PLD just got a pat on the back worth 400 potency every 60 sec. How appropriate.

I suspect that the main reason why all the GCD potency values are inflated on all jobs this expansion is to de-emphasise oGCD usage. You're going to be punished a lot less for not single and double weaving effectively, so long as you hit every GCD. WAR looks to have the lowest base combo values (because the majority of your dps comes from FC/IC and burst), and already that 400 potency is worth around about an average combo GCD on WAR when you factor in gauge generation. It's worth even less when compared to PLD's combos.

These things will come out in the wash when you compare overall dps. Either way, WAR looks to have the potency advantage based on preliminary estimates (setting aside that flawed analysis that was posted on reddit a while back).

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Originally Posted by Lyth

If you made Onslaught identical to the existing gap closers, it would be a straight up nerf to WAR. That's fine if you want it.

But the idea of keeping Onslaught the way it is now, while removing the gauge cost, is simply unreasonable. There are two tank jobs at the moment which have serious problems, and WAR players are complaining that a trifling issue like this isn't skewed enough in WAR's favour. Quite frankly, I think it's disgusting.

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This is literally the only thing I find warriors complain about and it's hilarious. Besides that, their dps numbers aren't super high but those don't matter since they often tune DPS numbers last due to variables and changes as well as aligning it with other classes. Defensives are more important to balance first since they rarely change them. Unless they really whine and cry and yell until it is changed. Everyone wants to silence DRKs on complaining and then "it doesn't fit with them thematically. We want to have it in line with how they are from a class aesthetic". We probably won't see much of a change for GNB either, but Warriors charge will probably be changed by launch or the first month since it was even mentioned. At the latest, 5.1. Part of me feels like the charges won't stay at 200 potency either, but idk.

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Originally Posted by Dralonis

This is literally the only thing I find warriors complain about and it's hilarious. Besides that, their dps numbers aren't super high but those don't matter since they often tune DPS numbers last due to variables and changes as well as aligning it with other classes. Defensives are more important to balance first since they rarely change them. Unless they really whine and cry and yell until it is changed. Everyone wants to silence DRKs on complaining and then "it doesn't fit with them thematically. We want to have it in line with how they are from a class aesthetic". We probably won't see much of a change for GNB either, but Warriors charge will probably be changed by launch or the first month since it was even mentioned. At the latest, 5.1

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Please, find the Warrior on these forums actively shutting down any conversation about other tanks.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Please, find the Warrior on these forums actively shutting down any conversation about other tanks.

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I didn't say here specifically, but it has been done in the past. As well as on other sites. So, I guess saying "everyone wants to silence DRKs" Is a bit too of a hyperbole, there's often a lot of warriors that complained much more and louder and some sorta downplay or shrug off other tank issues as not that big of a deal. I remember before the shake it off changes, so many of them were just saying they weren't going to tank and super angry about it all as if they aren't allowed to have anything that's not some of the best stuff. We also don't know if PLD/DRK damage will be nerfed and they will be closer to warriors damage over all. Too soon to tell. Nascent flash doesn't have a cost and only a CD so you have not much to worry about with that skill. It's crazy. Very few things even use Beast gauge.

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Originally Posted by Dralonis

I didn't say here specifically, but it has been done in the past. As well as on other sites. So, I guess saying "everyone wants to silence DRKs" Is a bit too of a hyperbole, there's often a lot of warriors that complained much more and louder and some sorta downplay or shrug off other tank issues as not that big of a deal. I remember before the shake it off changes, so many of them were just saying they weren't going to tank and super angry about it all as if they aren't allowed to have anything that's not some of the best stuff. We also don't know if PLD/DRK damage will be nerfed and they will be closer to warriors damage over all. Too soon to tell. Nascent flash doesn't have a cost and only a CD so you have not much to worry about with that skill. It's crazy. Very few things even use Beast gauge.

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Its not only hyperbole its also ironic seeing how this thread played out. I mean being called "disgusting" and "shameless" for bringing up a war concern kinda points to an opposite conclusion no?

And no one owns this forum and no one should be telling anyone else what they can or cannot post.

Personally speaking, most of my comments have been on the other tanks until certain Warrior related things came to my attention. War is my main so of course I'm going to say something about it, whether I'm right or wrong I don't really care - just throwing my opinion out there and the rest will shake itself out. But that doesn't mean I no longer support fixes for the other tanks.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Given how short the recast is on Onslaught is, I don't think that storing charges would do anything other than make the IR window more powerful.

It was an entertaining post, though.

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It wont make the IR window more powerful. You act as if no potency adjustments will accompany a change to Onslaught being on the charge system.

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Originally Posted by Dralonis

Very few things even use Beast gauge.

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Very few things use any Tanks gauges.

Oath Gauge is just Sheltron and Intervention and soon Cover.

Blackblood is just Delirium, Bloodspiller and Quietus. Soon will be Living Shadow, Bloodspiller and Quietus.

Cartridges are just Fated Circle, Burst Strike and Gnashing Fang.

Beast Gauge is just Fell Cleave, Decimate, Upheaval, Onslaught, Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone. Soon will be Fell Cleave, Decimate, Upheaval, Onslaught, Inner Chaos and Chaotic Cyclone.

If you want to get whiny, then Warriors only oGCD actions cost Gauge (Upheaval and Onslaught) while PLD and DRK have free oGCD's - Circle of Scorn, Spirits Within, Requiescat and Shield Swipe (Soon replaced with Intervene) - Plunge, Carve and Spit and Salted Earth.

This means that Warriors also have to do things like the math in this thread to figure out how much it is worth to use their Gauge on oGCD actions vs GCD actions... While other Tanks just spam their oGCD's freely for free damage that doesn't use any GCD resources (This is in addition to the fact that unlike other Tanks, Warrior's burst CD also affects their oGCD's so they also have to factor in trying to have them available for when they use IR. While again, other tanks just freely spam their oGCD's for free damage without care... At least DRK has to think about when to use CaS now because they need to double weave it to get the DA bonus but that's going away in ShB, as well as having them up for Blood Weapon for extra MP procs but I haven't a clue how that's going to work with ShB's BW)

Oh and for the record... I count at least 3 pretty active threads discussing DRK at the very top of the subforum. When I last went into one, I didn't see any Warriors trying to shut down discussions (I say "Last went into one" because I have little contribution to make on the topic. I preferred HW Warrior over DRK and didn't much like SB DRK so other people will have more experience playing DRK and thus have a better idea about what gameplay aspects they liked from both iterations that they would like to see back for the ShB iteration, because no doubt DRK mains are not happy about the current iteration that essentially turns DRK into WAR Lite with the godawful Delirium change)

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Originally Posted by NyneSwordz

It wont make the IR window more powerful. You act as if no potency adjustments will accompany a change to Onslaught being on the charge system.

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If you can store charges, you'll want to bank them so that you get off more free Crit/DH Onslaughts under IR. That intrinsically is going to give you more potency. You could drop the potency of Onslaught to counterbalance this, but I'm not sure what that would change. With a 10 second recast, it's always up. I think most people would prefer a dps neutral gap closer that they can use on demand over one that has to be used on recast (or saved up for buffs) to gain potency.

The caveat would be your opener, but the other three tanks are going to want to hold on to their gap closers until Trick goes off, anyways. I would be surprised if anyone opens a fresh pull with a gap closer.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Oh and for the record... I count at least 3 pretty active threads discussing DRK at the very top of the subforum. When I last went into one, I didn't see any Warriors trying to shut down discussions (I say "Last went into one" because I have little contribution to make on the topic.

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Hey look.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Because it's fine.

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It's...

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Originally Posted by Launched

Because it's a good skill.

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...the usual suspects. And if you're familiar with their posting history, you'll see that this sort of WAR jingoism is definitely not a new thing. And it's aimed at PLD players too. Anything that could benefit another tank must be shut down.

Granted, there are a few WAR posters who have been pretty good about the whole thing this media tour, and kudos to them for being ethical.

By the way, don't worry too much about the math. That's what theorycrafters are for. Most things come down to a simple priority system once they figure out the details (knowing the math is entirely optional, and comes down to whether you enjoy it).

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Originally Posted by Lyth

-Snip-

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Are you equating "Not sharing the same opinion" with "Trying to shut down discussions"?

Since, those 2 quotes you provided seem to suggest 2 players providing their opinion on the topic.

The fact that they're incongruent with yours doesn't mean they're "Shutting down the discussion". It merely means they hold a different opinion. Which is the literal purpose of discussions in forums, they're not supposed to be echo chambers where only people that agree with thread makers are allowed to post, but a place where people with different opinions can discuss things.

If someone starts to derail a thread, such as whining about how OP Warriors are for several pages which is completely off-topic to the actual thread and was sparked by merely a small comment about the class, that's more akin to trying to shut down discussions. Since derailing a thread can and does kill discussional value.

Opining with a different stance to other people in a thread does not.

For an example of shutting down discussion, look at this thread. This thread was supposed to be about Onslaught and its potential use as an opening skill, similar to how other Tanks gap closers (Which can add to burst enmity generation, if it is necessary. We don't know exactly how much Enmity the new Tank stance will be generating for us. But given that currently, people do like using oGCD's like Plunge on the pull because it's more attacks with Tank Stance enmity bonus and thus fewer necessary GCD's to be spent). Yet after 2 pages it became derailed with talks about how Warriors can't discuss anything because Warrior.

I have yet to see any such derailing in threads discussing Paladins, Dark Knights or Gunbreakers. Except for when some people *cough* decide to start ranting about Warriors in completely unrelated threads due to an aside comment that was somewhat relevant to the topic.

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Originally Posted by NyneSwordz

It wont make the IR window more powerful. You act as if no potency adjustments will accompany a change to Onslaught being on the charge system.

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Put it on the charge system and you have four options:

1. Break the whole point of its current balance, whereby it's largely considered a very subtle damage loss in exchange for very strong mobility. It will now be a more significant (but ultimately trifling if mobility was needed) damage inefficiency in exchange for near-limitless mobility.
2. Siphon potency away from the rest of the toolkit equal to a new amount produced via an obligatory on-cooldown charge ability, just like Plunge (and now Intervene). It no longer has any gauge cost and thus no IR synergy.
3. People bank charges for when in IR, where it's free.
4. Make Inner Release only affect weaponskills, making it even more dull.

Again, I don't see why Onslaught is being considered the problem here. It is an almost perfectly designed tool, even (or, especially) with the current Infuriate acceleration trait. The problem is Paladin's new Intervene ability. Put it on the Oath Gauge and give it a flat defensive/suppressive benefit to accompany its mobility; more shades of defensive utility aren't going to overwhelm the other tanks if they share costs, which Cover may be making a trend. Leave obligatory on-CD damaging charge gameplay to DRK.

There is a QoL change I'd like to see for all jobs that might have a beneficial impact here, though: Remove the "in combat" limitation on skills like Infuriate, Meditate, and soon Aetherflow/AS. In exchange, have Scholars and Summoners spawn in with their full number of stacks so there's no reason for them to hold up the party for that minute.

Give Warriors 10 seconds after combat before their Beast Gauge by 5 points per 5 seconds. Done. It doesn't generate resource over time; it just unclutters your opener and mitigates and inhibitions you might have for using Onslaught on pull.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

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Everything on a discussion forum is going to involve difference of opinions. It seems that if I disagree with you on the power balance surrounding Onslaught, that's "derailing" your campaign to buff the ability (not that there's anything else that you could ask for in the way of buffs, at the moment). If you disagree with me on the power balance surrounding Living Dead or Hyperbolide, then it's merely a "difference of opinion". I don't think that you can fairly make that distinction.

There's also the issue of intellectual honesty. I've happily discussed both the pros and cons of your viewpoints, both from an overall tank balance perspective as well as the potential negative impacts that your suggestions would have on your own job. That's quite different from arguing a point that you know to be objectionable, simply because it provides personal benefit. That's the point that people seem to be persistently missing. Balance is in everyone's interests. If WAR is intrinsically more powerful than the other jobs, it undermines your own personal skill. That's part of the reason why ARR WAR and HW DRK are golden eras for each respective tank. People acknowledged your skill in playing them well.

Granted, I've seen a few people trying to honestly reach a balanced compromise, so my opinion on the matter has softened somewhat. But I think you've reaped what you've sown, not even in terms of these forums, but in terms of community perceptions of WAR mains as a whole. If you don't speak up against unfairness, people will just lump you in with the vocal minority.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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I think when fully optimised, you're not going to see any of the other three tanks initiate a fight with their gap closers. This is primarily a function of getting raid buffs up first.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think when fully optimized, you're not going to see any of the other three tanks initiate a fight with their gap closers. This is primarily a function of getting raid buffs up first.

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Oh, I know, which is why Onslaught hasn't seemed a big deal to me anyways. It's less of a damage loss to open with than the others, but its enmity impact also matters all the less now, so I fully expected to continue delaying its use as per Plunge.

That said, I do understand why the typical player likes the feel of initiating a fight with it, even if it just makes it harder for melee to squeeze in their final oGCD before a jump when casual and optimized playstyles meet (read: clash) in midcore content.

And if there's a way that would cost nothing to the hardcore experience to satisfy that visible power fantasy for the average player (and make gameplay less clunky in the process, for instance) then I think we may as well take it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Everything on a discussion forum is going to involve difference of opinions. It seems that if I disagree with you on the power balance surrounding Onslaught, that's "derailing" your campaign to buff the ability (not that there's anything else that you could ask for in the way of buffs, at the moment). If you disagree with me on the power balance surrounding Living Dead or Hyperbolide, then it's merely a "difference of opinion". I don't think that you can fairly make that distinction.

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Except that I was not referring to your difference of opinion about Onslaught as your derailing.

More so how you were complaining about Warriors for the crime of being Warriors.

Your first post in this thread was reasonable. You were merely opining about Onslaught from your perspective.

What followed, was not particularly on-topic:

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I was on your side until about 4.2. I think a lot of people were. But then there was this big push from WAR mains to change Shake it off, which came at the expense of fixing DRK or even acknowledging that it was in a bad spot. Now you're doing it with Onslaught.

Other people are entitled to have an opinion of your conduct. Shame is an important self-regulator. It keeps you from being reprehensible and selfish. And if you don't have that self-regulation, then please allow the rest of us to assist you with this. The devs are clearly prioritising WAR issues at the expense of everyone else, so let's break this cycle from both ends. The hostility isn't just from me. Look around on the forums and on reddit. People are tired of this six year long favouritism. Even SCH didn't keep it up for this long.

Xeno is the one who has mentioned removing the rage cost on Onslaught. But it's also worth noting that he's the one who felt that Direct Hit and Crit made WAR dps optimisation too difficult, which is why a lot of things on WAR do both now. So this isn't about what is balanced so much as what is good for WAR.

If Onslaught was identical to the other tank gap closers, it would be flat out worse. The charge system doesn't give you two charges every 30 seconds. It just lets you hold one in reserve. So WAR still has the highest mobility out of any tank (double the mobility, in fact). The only difference is that outside of certain circumstances that grant a free Onslaught, it's designed to be a dps neutral mobility tool, rather than an oGCD potency gain.

So take your pick. Do you want double the mobility? Or do you want the removal of the gauge cost. Either is fine. Keep it as it is, with half the recast of the other tanks, or change it to be identical to the other tanks. What I don't want to see happen is for you to get the recast cost removed while keeping a 15s recast, and get yet another clear cut advantage over the other tanks.

I know it's kind of inevitable (this sort of decision-making always happens with the devs, as far as WAR is concerned), but I do think that the rest of us have the right to call you out on it.

That's pretty much all that needs to be said here.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Shake didn't need to be changed. DRK was in a similar situation in terms of raid-wide mitigation. Plenty of jobs, including DRK and PLD, had abilities that were introduced purely for flavour. Most people were happy to get a mostly useful suite of abilities. You were the only group of players who felt that you deserved more than the rest of us. The discussion of utility vs. dps in Stormblood was a lie. WAR mains wanted to claim that a disadvantage in "utility" entitled them to the highest dps. They became the best of both worlds. And more often than not, when we raised issues about ongoing problems about things like Living Dead, you were the ones to shout us down. It's still happening, in fact - you just need to look a few threads over.

If Onslaught is on a 10 second recast, then it's even more powerful. That kind of recast literally means on demand. So it would be even more silly to give up this kind of a recast advantage just to remove the gauge cost.

The charge system doesn't refresh two charges every 15 seconds. Otherwise they'd just set the recast at 15 seconds. It just acts as a storage reservoir for further uses. It just means that you aren't penalised as much for holding your gap closer for the next knockback mechanic. But it introduces other issues, such as the need to reserve a double gap closer for raid buffs. So there are a couple of places where this is going to become significantly more complex. At least with Onslaught, you don't have to think about it. Ungabunga up? Go right ahead and use it.

And we all have our rights to express our feelings in here. WAR mains certainly have the right to demand that WAR gain an even bigger advantage over the other tanks. But the rest of the tanking community, too, has the right to directly tell you what our feelings are on that. Especially if you missed the atmosphere in the room before.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I actually loved seeing the reactions to the world first ultimate.

"They cleared with DRK? But we asked for every possible buff! And the devs actually caved in and catered to every last request! There must have been some trick! Was it TBN? I knew we shouldn't have let them have that single target bubble. What else could we have begged the devs for?"

The one buff you can't ask for.

It was skill.

You should write some more letters to SE. Maybe they have figured out a solution to this.

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Aside from a brief mention about Onslaught in posts 2 and 3, which seemed like a secondary goal for the post, these posts were entirely directed towards crying about Warriors in some way and not about discussing the merits of the suggestion itself.

(Before you mention it, yes, I know that I also make off-topic posts when I respond to posts like these, I'm aware of the hypocrisy)

Had your posting remained about specifically Onslaught and how it fits within WAR's kit and how it measures up to other Tanks, like in your first post and last couple of posts where you were doing the math to try and show how Onslaught is DPS neutral (Vs the straight up DPS gain of other Tanks gap closers) then I wouldn't have mentioned you as derailing this thread, since it would have just been you opining on the topic.

But instead, you feel the need to shoehorn in a grand spiel about how Warriors are the love child of SE and how every Warrior suggestion is the highest priority change for SE and how Warriors shut down discussions about other jobs in almost every single thread you enter.

Even those that are to do with other jobs themselves! Meaning that if ANYONE is shutting down discussions of other jobs, it's YOU. Not Warrior mains, YOU.

The funny thing is, my posts had a lot more to do with Onslaught and tank balance than those responses that I got for disagreeing. I daresay you derailed yourselves. I could ignore the personal attacks for daring to disagree, but I'm a Dark Knight, not a Paladin. You may have stolen our Reprisal, but expect some repartee.

Either way, I saw what you collectively did with the WAR changes leading into 4.2 last expansion, simply because the rest of us passively let things slide. So if I see people pushing for a deal that gives WAR a further advantage over the other tanks, I'm going to speak my mind on the matter. I would hope that everyone else does the same.

So you make inflammatory posts, then blame the people you baited for not staying on topic? You are quite a piece.

Continue your delusional view that you are "simply disagreeing" everytime you get on your soap box. You are playing the hero role of being a check against power? Why is there never seen a single post of yours decrying the most dominant tank of the last 2 years? Nowhere because it doesnt start with W.A.R. why didn't you complain that pld got the same upgraded mobility for free and at a dps gain as drk when it was more dominant for 2 years but instead rail against the dps loss warrior charge? How is that defending the weakest tabk from the further advancement of the current strongest tabk getting stronger? Your bias is showing constantly. It's pretty hard to hide with the crusade you've been on for 2 years.

Oh, also something something about onslaught because as long as I say a sentence or 2 about it, I can apparently also pretend this post is on topic.

The health of the tanking community is the most important thing here.

I'm not, and I don't think anyone else is, trying to quell anyone's right to ask Santa SE Clause for QoL changes but, do so knowing you are in one of the best places, tanking-wise, ever. Some WAR mains get the stigma of "greedily" asking for more not because they need the change to be viable but more so bc they unknowingly have bought into the idea of being so OP that they fail to realize that all tanks need a reasonable weakness and a strength. Also the "they have it, why don't I?" mentality has caused issues. SE has played the role of an overindulgent parent for too long on many fronts which has caused great homogenization among the tanks.

But I don't blame the vast majority of WARs for that mentality. How would you know you were being an entitled brat if being given what you wanted when you wanted it was all you had ever known - It would just be normal to you. I ONLY fault those WAR mains who don't play other tank classes then trample over to the DRK specific threads and preach from their perch.

The reality is that there should be reasonable gaps in any kit. Ask away for QoL adjustments but know there are those that have and have had it way worse.

Wheres paladins gap? Why arent these posts flooding in their threads? Because war players arent the only people with 'false perceptions'. You talk of the perceptions of others as flawed, yet never turn that discerning eye into the mirror. It's far easier to find any and every opportunity to create and attack a fictional boogeyman.

Yea, I'm just not seeing any room for Onslaught. It's either sit on 2 stacks of Infuriate or burn as many FC as you can to reduce the timer enough to take advantage of other raid buffs in between IR. It looks like in actual practice we'll still only use it a couple of times per 90 sec cycle without drawback. Perhaps if you had a party with no raid buffs whatsoever it might be slightly different, but to line up with Trick it's either sit on Infuriate charges or burn them and as many fell cleaves as you can to reduce the timer going into trick window so you can re-use them.

I could be wrong of course, since I've been wrong about so many other things.. But just what I'm seeing. Onslaught so OP we can't even use it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danelo

The health of the tanking community is the most important thing here.

I'm not, and I don't think anyone else is, trying to quell anyone's right to ask Santa SE Clause for QoL changes but, do so knowing you are in one of the best places, tanking-wise, ever. Some WAR mains get the stigma of "greedily" asking for more not because they need the change to be viable but more so bc they unknowingly have bought into the idea of being so OP that they fail to realize that all tanks need a reasonable weakness and a strength. Also the "they have it, why don't I?" mentality has caused issues. SE has played the role of an overindulgent parent for too long on many fronts which has caused great homogenization among the tanks.

But I don't blame the vast majority of WARs for that mentality. How would you know you were being an entitled brat if being given what you wanted when you wanted it was all you had ever known - It would just be normal to you. I ONLY fault those WAR mains who don't play other tank classes then trample over to the DRK specific threads and preach from their perch.

The reality is that there should be reasonable gaps in any kit. Ask away for QoL adjustments but know there are those that have and have had it way worse.

---

It's funny. Since outside of Heavensward expansion, Paladin has been up there with Warrior (Warrior instead being gimped in X.0 patches to later get buffed in X.1/X.2 patches). Paladin has been a fairly consistent Tank throughout ARR and is arguably the strongest Tank in SB (Since, they CAN still MT but happen to be better at OT). Heck, Worlds First Ultimate used a Paladin but not a Warrior.

ShB looks to address every single one of Paladin players qualms. They're getting better AoE rotation that makes more sense. They're getting better stances with no more GCD for swapping. They're getting better enmity for pulling allowing them to actually pull. They're getting a gap closer. They're getting instant casts during Requiescat so it's less ping reliant. They're getting a ridiculous buff to Sheltron.

But that's fine. That's just the best Tank in the game getting more buffs, but it's cool, because they're not Warrior.

Also, I don't know much about Warriors "Trampling over to DRK specific threads". Heck, when I last mentioned in this thread about this point, I was shown 2 whole quotes where Warrior mains simply made a single, one sentence post, offering their opinion on a topic.

Meanwhile, I see DRK mains, whine about Warriors in Warrior thread.

DRK mains whine about Warriors in DRK threads.

DRK mains whine about Warriors in PLD threads.

You know what I don't see a lot of? DRK mains trying to actually ask for changes for DRK's in threads.

Only since the Media Tour information was released have I seen consistent threads about DRK's, ones that have been active and not been shoved several pages back because of DRK mains constantly bumping up literally every other thread except DRK ones by whining about Warriors.

What's SE to make of this? When literally every thread ends up in a discussion of Warrior? They're going to assume that Warrior is the most popular job and the one that people are most concerned about being addressed. Since, that's obviously why EVERY thread is discussing them right?

But whatever... I'm going to be swapping to GNB with ShB anyway. If that job runs into issues, you know what I'll do? Bitch about Warrior I'll create discussions about the job and try and keep them relevant and on topic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Wheres paladins gap? Why arent these posts flooding in their threads? Because war players arent the only people with 'false perceptions'. You talk of the perceptions of others as flawed, yet never turn that discerning eye into the mirror.

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PLD's gap? While I'm sure they have some deficiency, I don't know what it is off the top of my head bc it isn't my main and I care only that it is balanced within the scope of all tanks...

I don't do these post in PLD threads mainly bc I haven't found them to be the ones posting antagonistic remarks in DRK threads. It may be because the vast majority of long time PLDs remember rougher times when they couldn't block magic and they were a third wheel to dark/war comp. Tell me about your struggling times.. A real length of time. If you are going to say from release of stormblood to patch 4.2 then you can sit down now.

So you wont comment on Pld because it's not your main, but war isnt your main either. So what's going on? Dont you want it to be balanced with all tanks? Even though right now it is running away with dps and support over every other tank based on current build? Yet you feel free tocomment about war underthe same circumstances? Yet wars are are the only group of people blinded?

This is literally just petty vengence not the "good of the tank community" when your reasoning is based on how long you 'struggled'. The point is to achieve playability, fun, and balance not a tit for tat on thes struggle bus. Let's just say I've done my fair share, but you arent interested in that because war. If I told you i have done my time struggling would it change your opinion of warriors? Nope.

It doesnt matter that most people play more than one tank. It doesnt matter that people have been on the top or bottom in other games and have empathy for that situation. The only thing that matters is that war needs to go down.

You have made a caricature of people who play war when most have no connection to your fabrication you have created based on layer upon layer of baseles assumption.

This problem began the moment you gave a group of human players an identity based on their enjoyment of playing a digital mmo job class. Can you really make the same type of broad sweeping generalizations about the PLAYERS who pla drk ot pld? Of course not because they are a varied group with different interests and priorities. Lumping war players into some singular hivemind boogeyman that is trying to consume all drks is utterly ridiculous. As if people playing an ungabunga job like war are coordinated rofl.

You asked "Wheres paladins gap?" and so I responded to that...

I would comment on PLD too but, like I said, "I don't do these post in PLD threads mainly bc I haven't found them to be the ones posting antagonistic remarks in DRK threads." Don't mischaracterize me or take me out of context to fit your preconceived notion of me.

If you had done your time struggling as a WAR class, and played at that time, then yes, it might change my opinion of those select few WAR posters on DRK threads. But ask me if I truly believe those fitting into that category would post such obtuse comments. No.

Regarding "taking warriors down" all I heard was deflection. If you can't empathize because your class has always been on top and appears to be Yoshi's love child then just admit it and move on. BUT I Absolutely disagree with you're characterization of my mindset. Try to find one post that I have talking about WAR skills and how they need to be nerfed (because I play warrior too). On the contrary, even when I talk about how disappointing of a skill LD is I say NOT to nerf Holmgang or Hallowed Ground.

I can post here some of the troll-like post from WAR mains on the DRK threads regarding LD by way of example. I can also post the responses by other WAR mains who refute the previous post. I believe there are a select few who fit the category I laid out in my first post here, but they do exist and aren't boogeymen.

Sure, there will always players of any given job and players that play all tanks that troll all threads, but WARs have a reputation for it. And that idea isn't plucked from thin air or from my post turning everyone against WAR.

DRKs are heavily complaining because we learned our lesson last time from WARs. For some of those that play WAR to come to our thread and make uneducated and obtuse comments which is less than productive to say the least.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Meanwhile, I see DRK mains, whine about Warriors in Warrior thread.

DRK mains whine about Warriors in DRK threads.

DRK mains whine about Warriors in PLD threads.

You know what I don't see a lot of? DRK mains trying to actually ask for changes for DRK's in threads.

---

Wait, DRKs complain about lack luster aspects of the job and no identity? They compare themselves to other jobs they'll be competing against for a spot in comps? Hold the presses. Nothing new here. As far as some WARs offering poorly educated, quasi-antagonistic opinions on a job they don't main in a DRK specific thread, go for it I guess. Don't be surprised when these post come up here in response though. That tends to give SE a slanted view of what the community wants more than what DRKs do I believe. DRKs just say, "you guys have this and this, we have no answer to this, its a great advantage to a given comp." If that is the worst we do, lobbying for greater equity then I don't know where to go from here with this back and forth.

Like some of the WARs in the DRK threads I hope you guys get what you want but I hope even more that all classes are ACTUALLY viable and players aren't forced into specific jobs to match a meta.

Kalise, as far as DRK mains not asking for changes to DRK, you and I both know that is not true. I've seen you're post on the DRK threads next to proposed changes -disingenuous at best and 5 pinocchios awarded sir or ma'am.

If you can find a buncha warriors making accusations about the PLAYERS of other jobs be my guest. There is a lot of "wars are blind/selfish/entitled/blah blah(I believe you used 'brats' most recently) from darks wondering into threads about war. That's not disagreement. That is attacking an entire group of people based on the jobthey play just like you and lyth in this very thread. Pop in, attack the playerbase as a unit, indiscriminately. Then turn right around and feign hero saving the community from itself. Truly heroic.

A warrior going to a drk thread and saying "I dont think dark mind is a bad skill because x,y,z reasons (as i recently did for example) is not attacking dark players. Its presenting an opinion about a skill. Most notably there is no ad hominem in commenting on a skill in a game.

Now if I posted in every dark thread, regardless of topic to rant about how "dark players are whiney people that wont stop crying until HW dark is reborn" I would be doing what you and lyth and a number of other people have been doing in war threads for 2 years.

If you cant see that difference then you really are the blind one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danelo

Wait, DRKs complain about lack luster aspects of the job and no identity? They compare themselves to other jobs they'll be competing against for a spot in comps?

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Is that what they're calling it now? When DRK's are often just "WAAAH WAR's get everything WAAAH WAR's are the best WAAAH Doesn't matter what we ask for, only WAR's get listened too WAAAH"

Since that's what I see the most.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danelo

As far as some WARs offering poorly educated, quasi-antagonistic opinions on a job they don't main in a DRK specific thread, go for it I guess.

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You know people are allowed to post about classes that aren't their main right?

People can and do also play multiple classes you know.

I personally play most of the classes in the game. I've leveled them all up to level 70 and I've done a bunch of Duties and Eureka on them all.

Just because someone mains a certain job doesn't mean they have no experience on other jobs which would disqualify them from being able to comment on them (They're just less likely to be initimately familiar with them, but again, not impossible for them to still be as knowledgeable as someone who mains a job, outside maybe Savage/Ultimate experience)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danelo

Don't be surprised when these post come up here in response though.

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At this point, I expect salty DRK mains in any thread on the forums. And I mean ANY thread. I half expect to go into the DoL subforum and see DRK's crying about WAR's.

That just seems to be the thing to do these days.

But again, people can opine on things. Why does that make it acceptable to go into off-topic posts crying about how OP WAR is and how WAR's aren't allowed to ask for anything?

Why do discussion about WAR's have to be shut down? Why not just... You know... Ignore the discussion as it doesn't pertain to the class(es) you care about and focus instead on discussing the class(es) you care about?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danelo

DRKs just say, "you guys have this and this, we have no answer to this, its a great advantage to a given comp." If that is the worst we do, lobbying for greater equity then I don't know where to go from here with this back and forth.

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Lol no they don't. They go "WAR is so OP!!! WAR too stronk!! SE plz nerf WAR!!"

Maybe once in a blue moon they mention something about their actual job like "Living Dead sucks.... COMPARED TO HOLMGANG OMG WAR SO OP NERF PLX NERF NERF OP WAR!!"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danelo

Like some of the WARs in the DRK threads I hope you guys get what you want but I hope even more that all classes are ACTUALLY viable and players aren't forced into specific jobs to match a meta.

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I hope everyone gets what they want too. I also hope that WAR's don't have to battle through a bunch of hate any time they want to discuss their job.

Also, obligatory "Every class IS viable" and "DRK was used in World First clears"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danelo

Kalise, as far as DRK mains not asking for changes to DRK, you and I both know that is not true.

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It happens. But inconsistently. Also, a significant number of threads I see about DRK asking for changes to DRK quickly devolve into WAR hate threads...

As I say, the recent times being an exception, where people are actually discussing DRK after the Media Tour information was revealed. As far as I'm aware, most (If not all) of those threads are still talking about DRK. Which is great, I hope this continues.

Since, after all, DRK's have shown that crying about WAR doesn't help at all. In fact, maybe all the crying about WAR's is part of the reason that Delirium got changed into an IR clone?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danelo

I've seen you're post on the DRK threads next to proposed changes -disingenuous at best and 5 pinocchios awarded sir or ma'am.

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I post on DRK threads about DRKs. Who'd have thunk?

Almost as if I actually care about the job getting the care and changes it deserves instead of crying about other jobs that aren't DRK in those threads? :eek:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Izsha

If you can find a buncha warriors making accusations about the PLAYERS of other jobs be my guest. There is a lot of "wars are blind/selfish/entitled/blah blah(I believe you used 'brats' most recently) from darks wondering into threads about war.

A warrior going to a drk thread and saying "I dont think dark mind is a bad skill because x,y,z reasons (as i recently did for example) is not attacking dark players. Its presenting an opinion about a skill. Most notably there is no ad hominem in commenting on a skill in a game.

Now if I posted in every dark thread, regardless of topic to rant about how "dark players are whiney people that wont stop crying until HW dark is reborn" I would be doing what you and lyth and a number of other people have been doing in war threads for 2 years.

If you cant see that difference then you really are the blind one.

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"Entitled brats" was the term I used since you don't like using quotes directly in your responses so they are easier twist. But lets do this, I'm psyched.

Oh and it was absolutely an attack, but wait for the context before they tears come down your cheek like they did with triggered Kalise "Is that what they're calling it now? When DRK's are often just "WAAAH WAR's get everything WAAAH WAR's are the best WAAAH Doesn't matter what we ask for, only WAR's get listened too WAAAH." (infantile and churlish). Oh and... "I post on DRK threads about DRKs. Who'd have thunk? Almost as if I actually care about the job getting the care and changes it deserves instead of crying about other jobs that aren't DRK in those threads?" … I know the point was hard to deduce but it's that you are a liar based on that comment and your response was also full of inaccuracies at the very least. That should suffice as my response to you, Kalise.

Anyway. I said before that "some WAR mains". I further segmented the WAR community by saying "I don't blame the vast majority of WARs for that mentality." before calling the outliers "entitled brats". But even that doesn't give my comments context enough. Go back and read them and you may not be butthurt. But if the shoe fits wear it. Find something that wasn't mainstream in that comment. And hey, if you don't like it, go pound sand. Your feelings contradicting with my facts don't make them any less true.

I don't have a problem with people bringing reasoned arguments to the forums (that's what they are there for).

As far as Lyth and I, we have no affiliation there Alex Jones.

I haven't been posting for two years. Note the join date and the number of post. Another thing you lack accuracy on.

Point was made and I'm done responding. Better get back to the original intent of the thread, eh?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danelo

(infantile and churlish).

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Just like the DRK players I'm referring to when they provide responses that are genuinely like that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danelo

… I know the point was hard to deduce but it's that you are a liar based on that comment and your response was also full of inaccuracies at the very least.

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Care to elaborate?

I had not lied. My having posted in DRK threads about DRK is not me lying.

I mean, at best, I can assume you're responding to when I said:

Quote:

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"You know what I don't see a lot of? DRK mains trying to actually ask for changes for DRK's in threads."

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While misreading where I state "What I don't see a lot of" to mean "What I don't see any of"

Of course, just accuse me of lying and making vague comments like "Your response is full of inaccuracies"

Since, I can literally provide you with evidence should you wish. I can go through a ton of pages of the Tank sub-forum and provide you with links to threads where they get derailed by DRK's crying about WAR's

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danelo

As far as Lyth and I, we have no affiliation there Alex Jones.

I haven't been posting for two years. Note the join date and the number of post. Another thing you lack accuracy on.

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Instead of pointing out "Inaccuracies" you may want to put more effort into reading and understanding posts before you denounce them of being inaccurate.

Izsha was referencing a specific subset of players (You and Lyth included) performing a certain action throughout a period of time (2 years)

They weren't saying EVERYONE in that subset of players was performing the action for that entire period of time. Nor that those subset of players were related or even knew each other.

Just that there has been a number of players, whom over the period of time, have done the thing (I.e. Crying about WAR instead of actually discussing the topic at hand)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danelo

Point was made and I'm done responding. Better get back to the original intent of the thread, eh?

---

Of course, you've already helped curb the discussion. Like several DRK mains have done with many threads over the past 2 years. What better time to finish responding to people who are sick and tired of that BS.

But sure... Lets try and do something reasonably on topic, something that literally none of your posts in this thread have been (You know this is a thread about Onslaught? None of your posts have mentioned it at all, let alone entertained any discussion with the OP or prior posters that were actually discussing the topic)

As far as Onslaught goes...

I'd say just make it the same as the other 3 Tanks gap closers. 2 charges, 30s CD.

Pulling with it would then depend on if you had Trick Attack being used within 30s of the pull or not (For WAR's it would also want to be considered in you'd be using IR within 30s or not too, as you'd want to 2x Onslaught during IR)

If you can wait out the 30s then to line them up with burst CD's then you'd be fine to pull with it. Or you can just take the DPS loss and do it anyway.

If Onslaught was on a 30s CD, a WAR would be able to do 3x Onslaughts between IR and still get the 2x charges for IR.

Which would end up being a preferable situation than having a gap closer you generally don't want to use because of how FC usage is becoming more impactful due to Inner Chaos and thus Infuriate CDR mechanics.

Of course the other alternative is to let Onslaught also have CDR for Infuriate too, which would then bypass the issue surrounding trying to time 2x Infuriates for burst CD's such as Trick Attack.

(Though, this is also highlighting how Trick Attack is somewhat detrimental for the game when it's going to be the major thing that all CD's are focused around. Without Trick Attack, then a Warrior can actually just Infuriate almost whenever, since many rDPS buffs are Crit/DH chance which Inner Chaos doesn't care about. It's only when Trick Attack/Brotherhood/Embolden enter the mix where you start having to align Infuriates for these skills...)

On another note too, is that because Nascent Chaos upgrades FC into IC you can't even leverage the 30s duration to help with aligning the 2x IC's for these CD's since you'll still want to be using FC's to not overcap your Gauge (On the flip side, if IC was a separate skill, then you'd be trying to work on getting 3x IC during the buffs by having that 30s extra CD in combination with IC and IR providing CDR procs...)

Essentially, the more I look at it, the more that ShB WAR looks pretty messy in terms of design. Nothing seems to have a clear sense of flow. The only consistent thing seems to be how broken Holmgang is and how bad Direct Hit is...

Lyth,

You came in here offering to "assist" people with their sense of shame, calling me "disgusting" for merely bringing up a war issue.

I mean the record speaks for itself. You speak of selfishness, but isn't selfish to shout other players down because you somehow believe someone bringing up war issue is somehow taking away resources from issues you think are important?

What's next, are you gonna rail against crafters or bug reporters because you think that takes away from issues you care about?

Talk about selfishness and entitlement.

How about we all agree that the forums belong to SE and every player has a right to raise whatever issue they feel matters to them and not start calling people "disgusting" or trying to shout them down and shame them?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kalise

...

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Thanks Kalise for the breakdown. This was the sort of feedback I was hoping to get with this post!