5.0 healer catastrophizing is illogical - Change My Mind

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Originally Posted by guardin

Whatever

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Do you even play healer at a high level?

The change to Dissipation is pointless since besides the added Aetherflow stacks, there is no benefit. And with nothing to use those stacks on besides heals, what's the point, since you need the fairy out for a good portion of your heals anyway. Not to mention, very few heals are effected by the healing buff Dissipation grants you. The only good use for Dissipation was for role playing when you wanted to eat the fairy and regain 6 hearts a la Zelda.

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Originally Posted by Silverawz

Bane ? Energy drain ? Shadowflare ? Miasma II? Rouse ? Cleric stance ? Protec ? Eye for an eye ? There are actual reasons to complain,
it is not because you like the 20 or less buttons gameplay, that everyone must be the same.

You can't see what is coming because.... you have no knowledge on it, the proof is you are talking on healing part where everyone complains on gameplay part.

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This right here. It feels like we lost everything for...bigger heal numbers, when healing was never an issue anyway. That's fine though; lots of the DPS classes look fun.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

I'm happy for each and every SCH nerf that happened and I think after the total domination of SCH in SB they deserved it.

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This hurts, both as a SCH and as an individual. I know this is a game but I hope this isn't your way of thinking in the real world because if it is, it's kinda warped. We should want to raise up those weaker then us, not knock those with a stronger standing down and revel in their humiliation and misery.

There might be another reason why they reduced the number of dots for healer. BA was a success kinda, having many players attack one mob though resulted in dot/debuff display issues. You could have a thunder proc as blm and it would show you "no effect" when you used it, because the limit was full, resulting in no dmg. I feel like they have troubles expanding that limit and rather limit healer dps/dots to ensure dps dmg hits the target more reliable. They also removed resistence downs which further reduces the display limit. So I don't think they were really planning it like this, it's just consequence because of 1.0 code and having other priorities

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Originally Posted by Eloah

This hurts, both as a SCH and as an individual. I know this is a game but I hope this isn't your way of thinking in the real world because if it is, it's kinda warped. We should want to raise up those weaker then us, not knock those with a stronger standing down and revel in their humiliation and misery.

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That mentality just means that instead of nerfing 1 overpowered class, we should make everybody overpowered to compensate. And then make the dungeons, bosses, etc ludicrously hard to compensate, yaaaay.

Instead of, you know, knocking the outlier down a peg so that they are closer to the other two.

EDIT: I will admit that the general malice behind the poster you quoted is just... going a little over the top but I can't exactly disagree with the decision to nerf AST. It needed a nerf. It was just too good.

For AST, it's simple, open your Excel, do some math, assuming you can get everything done (draw a card, decide what to do with the seal, give it to a party member) in one GCD, How many GCDs do you need for the 20s 6% party dmg buff with 3min CD? I guess AST players will be really busy in battle.......

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Originally Posted by Maeka

That mentality just means that instead of nerfing 1 overpowered class, we should make everybody overpowered to compensate. And then make the dungeons, bosses, etc ludicrously hard to compensate, yaaaay.

Instead of, you know, knocking the outlier down a peg so that they are closer to the other two.

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Every AST I've talked to since the embargo lift is completely sympathetic and wouldn't wish their 1 dot, 1 filler spell dps rotation on anyone.

Yet here we are. Every healer has it.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

That mentality just means that instead of nerfing 1 overpowered class, we should make everybody overpowered to compensate. And then make the dungeons, bosses, etc ludicrously hard to compensate, yaaaay.

Instead of, you know, knocking the outlier down a peg so that they are closer to the other two.

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I think you might of missed the context of my statement. A "neutral" example I can give, so as not to draw any backlash, is you don't try and show favoritism with your kids right? You try and show that they are loved equally.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

I very nearly ignored your post because of the way you started it with an obvious troll question...I don't think they're a bad thing and they're still decent movement tools. I can only imagine how much easier HW2 would have been with those handy. If you are so skilled you can handle late stage Savage using only your oGCDs please teach us all but I really, really doubt it unless you're standing on the back of your cohealers head to do so. Also, while I'm not trying to sound sassy it's going to come off that way, don't try to talk down to me about "inexperience showing" when I can see that you're likely not displaying an alt and you also have room to improve. Your best final that I can find has 16 Medica casts... I think you can find a place to work in free, instant Medica casts without too much issue and shouldn't be turning them (or the dps ability you get on top of the mp saved and movement) away.

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It wasn't a troll question. The last 2 days have been full of non-healer mains or casual players coming in here to troll the healer forums.

I'm really glad you mentioned my logs. I never claimed to be a world first progger. Since I don't see any for you, and you haven't mentioned that you have any raid experience, I'll explain I was healing with an AST and not a SCH. If you're so interested in my logs, you may also notice healer combined DPS orange across the board--because my cohealer and I worked together to maximize combined DPS regardless of personal DPS.

With an absolutely anemic kit, no fairy mitigation, and no ability to deploy, I won't deny I played it safe and went a little nuts during HW to get the clear. If you have time for 1 skill before the next wave hits, and you used your 1 oGCD tool...what do you do if you have to heal 2 people? You have to AoE. This is a huge part of why WHMs have been screaming for oGCD help for so long. It isn't just for dps, it's for efficient healing. An instant on-GCD just is not nearly as useful.

On each of the 5 occasions I used medica during Final, I used plenary after to heal the party up before ion. It would have been a easier with more instant casts, sure. It wouldn't have helped DPS, though. It would have been a LOT easier with a SCH or a better kit...maybe some oGCDs or some kind of mitigation? That would have been nice.

Now we did finally get some mitigation, but it's tied to our healing buff! Great for something like Almagest...not great for something like Charybdis.

These WHM changes are not what we asked for, and they are not good. If it weren't for SCH's absolutely bonkers kit, I would think they didn't want to overpower healers, but that is clearly not the issue. They wanted to bend us over a barrel and show us the 6 city-states, and that is exactly what happened.

Instead of raising one job up, they lower two jobs down. Just a dumb decision all around.

It's a shame too because this community has a lot of good suggestion. Maybe our reps need to spend more time looking at the healer boards in the next month and up channel what everyone is asking for.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Instead of, you know, knocking the outlier down a peg so that they are closer to the other two.

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"Taken down a peg or two" is fine, and I say this as someone who highly favours Scholar.

But instead they thoroughly slaughtered Scholars.

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

"Taken down a peg or two" is fine, and I say this as someone who highly favours Scholar.

But instead they thoroughly slaughtered Scholars.

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While I can understand about being disappointed about the DPS rotation being simplified, SCH still looks very strong. It will likely keep its place in the meta.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Where do you get the idea that healers have "toddler damage" from?

Combat macros are always a bad idea, don't do them.

You don't need to put Place or any other pet control on your hotbars (though I would and have and have never had issue fitting them) since they're still on the pet hotbars if you've been clicking them there or whatever.

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Um...

LOL.

Sorry but are you serious? That is 1. Not even remotely what I said. And 2. You just showed how very little you understand about what you are talking about.

For reference my comment was
"Also your statement that selene is hotbar bloat is illogical, because it's immeasurably easy to create a hotbar replacement macro, or like me... keybind the dang pet hotbar so it changes itself. Now I have MORE hotbar bloat because I have to now put my placement and obey actions on my battle hotbars."

This means that people set up hotbar skill replacement macros for when they summon their faerie. It makes the system place their faerie skills of the correct faerie into the spot they want, so they only need to use 3 slots, not 6. Works the same for literally any skill you want. Maybe look it up.

2. I said I was keybinding my pet hotbar, which I guess you are completely unaware of the ability to do so... you just go in your handy dandy setting and set it yourself! Wowza.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

That mentality just means that instead of nerfing 1 overpowered class, we should make everybody overpowered to compensate. And then make the dungeons, bosses, etc ludicrously hard to compensate, yaaaay.

Instead of, you know, knocking the outlier down a peg so that they are closer to the other two.

EDIT: I will admit that the general malice behind the poster you quoted is just... going a little over the top but I can't exactly disagree with the decision to nerf AST. It needed a nerf. It was just too good.

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Here's the thing. SCH didn't get nerfed. They will most likely be ahead of WHM still with AST lagging behind on pDPS. They also have the most attractive healing kit. That's not the issue everyone is having with SCH.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

All healers have been given tools to deal with this better but in terms of really new additions to healing potency you see it more with SCH who tended to do the least during 4.0 simply because they had less tools.

I think a lot of the SCH outrage stems from the idea of them needing to heal more in 5.0 because they won't have the excuse of "Indom is down sorry" and those people are the ones I don't care for. There's one in this thread still popping off because like... reasons?

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Lol what? SCH have been top heal contributors for alpha/sygma savage and ex. Lagging behind a bit in ultimate (naturally)

Alphascape : https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...&timespan=1000
Sygma : https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...&timespan=1000
Ex trials : https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...000&metric=hps

You can play around with percentiles if you want. I chose 20 because it's usually a good start for healer optimization. The higher you go the more you enter non optimized play and beyond that solo healer territory.
This makes sense since you would leverage your SCH OGCDs before anything else. Basically leave healing to SCH ogcd then pitch in when they're on cooldown. (not exactly but that's the jist)
Again if you had payed attention you would notice SCH issues have nothing to do with this.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

While I can understand about being disappointed about the DPS rotation being simplified, SCH still looks very strong. It will likely keep its place in the meta.

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I suppose I was being unclear, sorry.

It's not about being meta, it's about SCH becoming braindead, if not in Shadowbringers' dungeons/raids, then everywhere else due to having next to nothing to do during downtime.

Also, the amount of healing tools we get seems unnecessary, and instead of the fairy being a separate being that can be controlled while doing other things, we now need to spend an oGCD to direct her with elaborate hand gestures because the poor girl took steroids and got swole, but lost what little brain she had.

Again, not about being meta, but rather having fun with the class with some manner of a skill ceiling to strive for.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Here's the thing. SCH didn't get nerfed. They will most likely be ahead of WHM still with AST lagging behind on pDPS. They also have the most attractive healing kit. That's not the issue everyone is having with SCH.

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......I was replying to someone complaining about AST nerfs. I wasn't talking about SCH.

I can see that this thread has devolved into much of the same stupidity and overreactions that the rest of the healer forum is going through.

I'll enjoy it when you guys are thoroughly embarrassed come ShB but there's only so many times I can literally restate the same things over and over to the same group of people.

Your lives would likely be much happier if you spent more time rationalizing and less time bandwagoning onto whatever bad thing someone else said, then you could spend the next mouth preparing for an expansion instead of whining on the internet about things it doesn't seem like you're able to understand.

This isn't all of you but it's too many for me to attempt to wrangle so peace, I'll go back to crafting and leave you to your illogical death spiral.

My mind was very much unchanged.

Illogic? I'm doing just fine rolling a DPS job. I want to run a job that has interesting, involved mechanics that keep getting refined and improved. I'm done spending pre-expansions wondering what half-baked counterintuitive dumbing-down my favorite job is ready to get screwed with.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

I can see that this thread has devolved into much of the same stupidity and overreactions that the rest of the healer forum is going through.

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Perhaps it would have gone better if you didn't act like you knew more about the discussion at hand than career healers. Instead, you opt to attack their skill while showing none of your own. Just like in another thread about healer balance when confronted with arguments opposing your own.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

I can see that this thread has devolved into much of the same stupidity and overreactions that the rest of the healer forum is going through.

I'll enjoy it when you guys are thoroughly embarrassed come ShB but there's only so many times I can literally restate the same things over and over to the same group of people.

Your lives would likely be much happier if you spent more time rationalizing and less time bandwagoning onto whatever bad thing someone else said, then you could spend the next mouth preparing for an expansion instead of whining on the internet about things it doesn't seem like you're able to understand.

This isn't all of you but it's too many for me to attempt to wrangle so peace, I'll go back to crafting and leave you to your illogical death spiral.

My mind was very much unchanged.

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I saw a LOT of info thrown your way, and basically you just sidestepped the good counterarguments and tried to needle people with insults. I believe you when you say your mind was unchanged.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

I think many of your concerns could be countered by the idea that there may be more damage coming out in the raids in ShB. I'll happily admit I don't know that to be the case but with the large buffs to healing and mitigation that we are seeing across almost all jobs in one way or another I would be startled to think we're still going to be able to skate by on oGCDs alone outside of the very best of groups which I doubt any of us is a part of. This would also give dissipation back some of its value despite not having energy drain - otherwise I'm not sure why they would update dissipation instead of just removing it with the other changes we are seeing to aetherflow. Only time will tell.

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Not exactly, increase the damage coming would help but it wouldnt fix it, it would be more like hiding a problem than solving it, besides right now 90% of the time you are dpsing even if they increase insanely the damage coming with the absolute overkill of set sch has I cant hardly see it spending less than 50% of the time dpsing but not only that, the change should be retroactive otherwise playing healer in any instance that is not from shb would be total garbage, change that I dont think the devs will do and the info and videos from the media tour seems to prove my beliefs right since the enemies doesnt deal as much damage as they should to make this kit remotely acceptable (but I know this could be changed). Dissipation also couldnt work as you say since the aetherflow skills have its own cooldown so, Why you want more stacks if you cant spend them? Why using it if only damages your healing capabilities and you dont get dps from it?

And lets not talk about how sch has lost his identity with 1 pet only, aetherflow transformed into a glorified cooldown instead of a risk/reward tool, how the lost of energy drain damages the mp managment (and again the risk/reward nature of aetherflow) or the loss of bane/miasmaII for a lackluster AoE with no special effect which make the job way less fun in dungeons, no ammount of healing can patch that.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

My mind was very much unchanged.

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Unchanged because you weren't even willing to change it to begin with, and that's not how debates work.

I think everyone needs to calm down.

Only a handful people where able to test the new rotations, and that only in the lvl 73 dungeon and open world. I will hold my opinion until i tried my mains (sch, rdm, whm, pld) at lvl 80.

FF14 is a great game where you can do everything on 1 character. If sch is actually no fun at lvl 80 i will switch to whm, if all healers are "bad" i will go rdm and so on.

I understand that some players identify with a single job, but honestly, the best feedback (if it really should be that bad) is to change main job after trying the job at lvl 80 yourself.

Another thing is, that the complains only come from a small fraction of the playerbase.
Let me explain that with an example and lets keep it simple:
WHM is in the hardcore raiding scene considered "bad", because it has no utility.
But if you go into DF for any other content than savage raids, you will realise, that whm is the most played healer by far.
Why? Because its easy to play on an average basis. Same reason why rdm is so popular for the casual playerbase.

I understand, that balance is important for raids, but the meta raiders might have to consider, that maybe they need to adjust their main jobs, instead of SE catering every job to them.

(sorry for bad english)

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Originally Posted by Laphael

I think everyone needs to calm down.

Only a handful people where able to test the new rotations, and that only in the lvl 73 dungeon and open world. I will hold my opinion until i tried my mains (sch, rdm, whm, pld) at lvl 80.

FF14 is a great game where you can do everything on 1 character. If sch is actually no fun at lvl 80 i will switch to whm, if all healers are "bad" i will go rdm and so on.

I understand that some players identify with a single job, but honestly, the best feedback (if it really should be that bad) is to change main job after trying the job at lvl 80 yourself.

Another thing is, that the complains only come from a small fraction of the playerbase.
Let me explain that with an example and lets keep it simple:
WHM is in the hardcore raiding scene considered "bad", because it has no utility.
But if you go into DF for any other content than savage raids, you will realise, that whm is the most played healer by far.
Why? Because its easy to play on an average basis. Same reason why rdm is so popular for the casual playerbase.

I understand, that balance is important for raids, but the meta raiders might have to consider, that maybe they need to adjust their main jobs, instead of SE catering every job to them.

(sorry for bad english)

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So basically, we should be good with it because players who aren’t good at playing healer are ok with it? And those who are, can just not play healer anymore?

Also lol at OP ignoring all the good counter arguments here, getting quite a few things wrong, and then calling us stupid.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

So basically, we should be good with it because players who aren’t good at playing healer are ok with it? And those who are, can just not play healer anymore?

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Exactly.............

Like you say, that everyones opinion who isn´t unter the 1% world best doesn´t count.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

So basically, we should be good with it because players who aren’t good at playing healer are ok with it? And those who are, can just not play healer anymore?

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How positively arrogant, at the end of the day it's a game and if the game ceases to he fun play a different game. I admit me throwing my two sense in is very hypocritical, but I'm the weirdo who thrived playing 4.0 sch so I'm absolutely ok with what I'm seeing.

SCH has more options for healing, unfortunately it had to come at the cost of their dps toolkit. AST had its card system reworked because all we really tended to do was fish for balance since the other cards tended to be more niche in their use, so they change the rng elsewhere. And the dev's are probably going to be trying to push whm as the strong raw output healer until they finally figure out how to do it in a raid viable sense. Its either going to be fun or it wont be. Its that simple. I'm gonna keep watching this fire because it gives me something to do during downtime at work.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

SCH is still going to be plenty strong, I just feel sorry for the Ayesha's and Elias that have to play this watered down version of it.

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If by strong you mean they can overheal all day while standing around throwing rocks at thing--just waiting for someone to fall to 80% health to heal them for WAY more than they need? Then, yea they look strong alright. Boring as heck too. Truth is, these are dumb changes. SE should bring back Miasma 2 (/w the aoe dot and lower resource cost to cast), bane, shadowflare, and add some other non-healing tools so we're not whittling our thumbs waiting for someone to die.

I mean, if forced to play a SCH I might let people fall to 40% health before healing just out of boredom for the added drama and the illusion of high-stake gameplay.
But, please guys--YOU should log in and play healer if you can stomach this brain-dead, humdrum garbage. I'll need some of you pliable players in que to heal for my upcoming dps <3

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Originally Posted by Truen

If by strong you mean they can overheal all day while standing around throwing rocks at thing--just waiting for someone to fall to 80% health to heal them for WAY more than they need? Then, yea they look strong alright. Boring as heck too. Truth is, these are dumb changes. SE should bring back Miasma 2 (/w the aoe dot and lower resource cost to cast), bane, shadowflare, and add some other non-healing tools so we're not whittling our thumbs waiting for someone to die.

I mean, if forced to play a SCH I might let people fall to 40% health before healing just out of boredom for the added drama and the illusion of high-stake gameplay.
But, please guys--YOU should log in and play healer if you can stomach this brain-dead, humdrum garbage. I'll need some of you pliable players in que to heal for my upcoming dps <3

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My my how edgy.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

I can see that this thread has devolved into much of the same stupidity and overreactions that the rest of the healer forum is going through.

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It's almost as though resorting to personal attacks and championing a holier-than-thou attitude doesn't produce good results. Imagine that. I am still waiting for that proof you're such a talented healer, by the way. :)

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

How positively arrogant, at the end of the day it's a game and if the game ceases to he fun play a different game. I admit me throwing my two sense in is very hypocritical, but I'm the weirdo who thrived playing 4.0 sch so I'm absolutely ok with what I'm seeing.

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How is that in any way arrogant? They are essentially saying "why should good players who put in the effort to learn and improve on their respective job settle for a dumbed down version because other players weren't willing to put in that same effort?" Bear in mind, a good player does not inherently mean you must clear Savage or Ultimate. I can point you to plenty of talented players who have never stepped foot in either but they still put in the time to learn. "Fun" is not a worthwhile argument because it's subjective. Some people think it's fun spamming Medica II endlessly, others think they can invent their own rotation and still do top DPS.

You're allowed to be happy with the changes. I certainly will not deny you that privilege. However, others are equally allowed to be upset by them.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

How is that in any way arrogant? They are essentially saying "why should good players who put in the effort to learn and improve on their respective job settle for a dumbed down version because other players weren't willing to put in that same effort?" Bear in mind, a good player does not inherently mean you must clear Savage or Ultimate. I can point you to plenty of talented players who have never stepped foot in either but they still put in the time to learn. "Fun" is not a worthwhile argument because it's subjective. Some people think it's fun spamming Medica II endlessly, others think they can invent their own rotation and still do top DPS.

You're allowed to be happy with the changes. I certainly will not deny you that privilege. However, others are equally allowed to be upset by them.

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The elitism of "I shouldn't have to cater to less skilled players." That's what comes off as arrogant.

The sky definitely isn't falling but Stormclouds are on the horizon.

If you can't look at these healers and see what a homogenized mess they are, you're simply not trying. Yes they have some cool stuff, but it's all bells and whistles to hide the fact they're dumbed-down.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

The elitism of "I shouldn't have to cater to less skilled players." That's what comes off as arrogant.

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Except healers have always catered to less skilled players. Just with SCH we have excog, fey union, emergency tactics, largesse, lustrate spam with dissipation, all things that help less skilled players get out of oh crap moments. You are basically saying that these less skilled players should be catered to SOLELY and that the opinions of the people who utilize the jobs completely are not even worth bothering for. I think you are the arrogant and entitled one here.

Almost took this thread seriously but then saw OP's lack of effort in subsequent posts. 4\10 see me after class.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

The elitism of "I shouldn't have to cater to less skilled players." That's what comes off as arrogant.

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That isn't arrogance, that's just expecting rewards for becoming more familiar with a class and putting time and effort towards optimization. That's the entire point of mastering a class in the first place, people are upset that there's significantly less to master now.

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Originally Posted by Truen

If by strong you mean they can overheal all day while standing around throwing rocks at thing--just waiting for someone to fall to 80% health to heal them for WAY more than they need? Then, yea they look strong alright. Boring as heck too. Truth is, these are dumb changes. SE should bring back Miasma 2 (/w the aoe dot and lower resource cost to cast), bane, shadowflare, and add some other non-healing tools so we're not whittling our thumbs waiting for someone to die.

I mean, if forced to play a SCH I might let people fall to 40% health before healing just out of boredom for the added drama and the illusion of high-stake gameplay.
But, please guys--YOU should log in and play healer if you can stomach this brain-dead, humdrum garbage. I'll need some of you pliable players in que to heal for my upcoming dps <3

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Sebazy does play healer. There were other comments that led to them saying SCH is still going to be plenty strong. The honest truth is all 3 healers will still be "playable" (though some might have problems clearing everything easily at launch like with Stormblood). The most telling part of that quote to me is them feeling bad for the people who "have to play this watered down version" of SCH. We can see the healers got lots of bad changes. They got some coolish flashy stuff, but none of us got what we wanted or needed to balance us out. And turning all 3 healers into copy-pastas of each other seems really lazy and like a super bad call to me.

I fail to see how being mad that my favorite job flavor has received useless, redundant, and boring changes along with a bunch of unwarranted nerfs while remaining one of the weakest, blandest jobs in the game for the majority of the past several expansions makes me an "entitled spoiled child", because being spoiled implies getting favorable treatment in the first place.

I'm happy that the core healing kits are being homogenized. Makes it easier to balance healers and introduce new ones later. I don't get the doom and gloom though.